Hugo is posting a lot today.
My fiancee and I did make it out of the house this past weekend, despite the rain and our mutual flu affliction. We went to see A Love Song for Bobby Long starring Scarlett Johansson and John Travolta. It was a passable film if not a deeply memorable one, and the two leads were quite fine. (I do want the soundtrack.)
Johansson’s character, "Pursey", is 18 and lovely. Travolta plays the title character, a 50ish alcoholic former English professor prone to quoting George Eliot and making odious sexual remarks to Pursey. At one point,following a particularly obscene comment, Pursey turns to Bobby in hurt and frustration and cries out "But I’m just a girl." It’s the line that lingered for me. Pursey is legally an adult, and the film makes clear she is not sexually unexperienced — but the plain power of that one line drove home for me the reality we often choose to ignore, that those who appear outwardly fully adult may still be in need of our care and protection.
I thought about this just now as I read this post by Sofia at Volsunga. Among other things, she touches on issues of older men dating younger women, and I thought I’d add some musings. No, there will be no personal disclosures in this post. All I will say is that I can say in all honesty that today my private life matches my public pronouncements on this issue, and to God be the glory for that.
I don’t think I need to defend the proposition that we live in a culture that sexualizes and objectifies young women starting very early in life. I work with junior high and high school age girls in my church youth group, and am well aware that a substantial number of them struggle with the overwhelming pressure to be alluring, to be sexy, to be powerful. In frank group discussions, we’ve touched on these pressures many times over the years. I’ve had countless similar (if slightly more sophisticated) discussions in classes with my students at PCC.
I see a great many young women eager for attention and validation from older men. By "young", I mean both underage girls and college-aged women. (What I mean by "older" depends on the age of the girl who is the subject of the conversation. 20 is an "older man" for a 16 year-old; 30, or even 40, might be an older man for a 21 year-old.) For all of the progress our culture has made on some issues, it is truly remarkable how the older man/younger woman ideal has persisted. Though there remains considerable disagreement about how old might be "too old" and how young might be "too young" (especially given legal considerations), most folks seem quite prepared to accept these relationships not only as normal, but perhaps even ideal.
Now, I don’t think that significant age gaps in relationships are always a problem, but I do think that they are far more problematic than we are willing to let on. When we are talking about men over, say, 27 and women under 21, they are almost invariably a very poor idea.
I’ve often written about how much I enjoy working with young men and adolesecent boys. I’ve talked about the importance of male role models, and about how crucial it is that older men take an active interest in the emotional and spiritual development of young men, not just their athletic and intellectual achievements. I love "my guys". But I also think it’s equally vital that adult men work with adolescent girls and young women. I’m convinced that young girls badly need the presence of loving older men who are not parents or relatives, but who are still fundamentally safe.
I’ve heard, over and over again, how shocking and upsetting it is the first time a young girl realizes that an older man is sexually attracted to her. The first catcall, the first leer, the first whistle, the first inappropriate remark — these are seldom forgotten, and they leave deep and enduring wounds. (The younger the girl and the older the predator, the deeper the scar, it seems.) After these early experiences, by the time they arrive at college, many young women expect to be seen as objects of desire by men in their thirties, forties, and perhaps beyond. Young women employ different strategies to cope with this onslaught of attention. Some hide from it, making a conscious effort to deemphasize their sexuality, to appear less desirable. Others, more troublingly, see it as an opportunity to get much-wanted validation and attention.
In my work, it is absolutely critical that I never, ever, respond to the sexuality of the young women with whom I interact. This has nothing to do with preserving my job, and everything to do with the precious integrity of my work on gender issues. Now, at the risk of the accusation of narcissism, I will share that I do get plenty of female students who flirt with me, a few quite brazenly. (My colleagues tell me it will happen less after I turn 40.) I don’t let it go to my head much, because I understand that it’s not Hugo they really want. At the risk of sounding paternalistic, what they really want is to be noticed, to be seen, to be validated as good and worthy and interesting individuals. And they believe — with good reason in most cases — that using their sexuality is hands down the best (if not the only way) to get that attention that they rightly want.
If I were to flirt back, or if I were to date a student, I am convinced I would send a devastating message about what older men "really" want. Young women need older men in their lives who will respect and care about them, who aren’t their fathers or brothers but who aren’t prospective lovers, either. They need to know that they bring more to the table than their sexuality. They need to be seen as complete human beings. Paradoxically, seeing young women as complete human beings means that in actions, words, and yes, even in thought, older men cannot see them as objects of sexual desire. That doesn’t mean that we (older guys) shouldn’t acknowledge that younger women are sexual creatures. But we must (and the burden is on us alone here, fellas) love them with radical unselfishness,and that requires that we ourselves always refrain from sexualizing them. We need to see them as Pursey wanted to be seen.
When I first started teaching, I wanted to be admired. The older I get, I am happy to report, the less I worry about that. I do still do care what my college students (and my youth group kids) think of me. I don’t care all that much if they think I’m brilliant or eloquent or handsome (though, oh, one likes to hear that sort of flattery). But there is something I do care very much about. I want all of the young people I work with, be they 14, 18, or 21, to think I’m safe. The longer I do this work, the more that becomes my goal. I want my kids to know I love them for who they are, I want my students to know I respect and honor their minds and their spirits, not their bodies.
I will not sit in judgment of others’ relationships, save those that are obviously exploitative. Clearly, not all young women are equally mature at the same chronological age. But I will say that older men do well to see younger women as full human beings rather than objects of desire. If more of us would take small steps to make the younger women around us feel both seen and safe, our culture would be a damn sight better off.
As a very young woman in a wonderful, years-long relationship with a monumental age gap (it spans a generation; yes, it has always been “legal”), and having undergone a million personal attacks from outside observers, my gut instinct is to defend the older man/younger woman phenomenon as “not really mattering.” I realize, however, from many other younger women’s experience, that it does matter more often than not.
Yes, it matters in terms of one’s general position in life — a girl my age is very often straight out of high school and invariably living at home, babysitting every other weekend and only knowing life within her family. Yes, it matters in terms of “unspoken” agreements of dependence — all too often, the older man’s financial stability is used as a crutch, means of support, or a way of ’spoiling’ the younger. But most of all, it matters in terms of the older man’s level of accountability! (That semester sure drove it in — I’m using real HugoWordsâ„¢ here!) A much older man could easily lust after a younger woman and pursue only her. What’s essential is that he pursue a close relationship with her family and friends as well. (Yes, this means meet-the-parents!) He needs full participation in her entire life — as a companion and best friend, not father — and vice versa.
If either person is unwilling to meld their extended life into the relationship, that’s not just indicative of unwillingness to commit — it could indicate a total lack of relatability. (Your textbook middle-aged stock broker might not be entirely excited about hanging out with a bunch of giddy 19-year-old girls at the mall!)
Why must older men who are with younger women fail to see them “as full human beings rather than objects of desire”? For any relationship to be effective, surely both factors must play a part. What’s essential is an investment into each other’s lives, not just to each other.
Such an interesting post Hugo. I was surrounded my whole childhood by tons of ’safe’ men, at church, in my small town and neighborhood. I never really thought about it however, or how that experience formed me.
I do remember clearly the first time a very much older man, a teacher, who I considered safe out of long habit, made a pass at me and how betrayed I felt by it. It came so out of left-field for me, shocked me, hurt me.
I never really considered that for so many young women this sexualization is the rule rather than the exception.
Thanks Hugo, once again your blog blows my mind.
okay, two directions to go for me”
1. Recently a good friend of mine had a good friend of hers indicted for an inappropriate relationship with a minor. What I found so alarming was the stance that both my friend and my own mother took, which ran like this : “but you don’t know what 16 year-olds do these days.” Both of these women saw enough responsibility on the adolescent’s part to preserve the man from civil punishment- though he was 24 at the time and a church-aquaintance. I see total culpability on the part of the adult in every situation. However, I think that part of our failure as adults lies in the wide-spread acceptance of the blatant sexualization of minors: B. Spears and those sad little Olsen twins come to mind readily. It seems both hypocritical and dangerous to expect a public that lusts after adolescents to refrain from the pursuit of one in real life. even if only in their mental lives.
on an opposite note:
One of the dearest friendships I have is with a former professor, not much older than I am actually, who neither saw me as daughter or sex object. Your post helped me understand why I am driven to live up to the person i first saw I could be in his class. If I didn’t have this amazing respect and gratitude for him, I wouldn’t understand your post so well. you are right on. . .
A slight modification: “In my work, it is absolutely critical that I never, ever, respond to the sexuality of the young women with whom I interact. This has” everything “to do with preserving my job,” because my job is precious to me and because the job of educating minds and souls can only be complicated by attention to bodies. I don’t ever want my students to think that I take their ideas less or more seriously depending on how they dress: they’ll get plenty of that in the world (note: how they write is a different matter).
I’ve heard, over and over again, how shocking and upsetting it is the first time a young girl realizes that an older man is sexually attracted to her.
I’ve heard a lot about this too, but for me it was more the fact that some older men are sexually attracted to you and display it in inappropriate manners in inappropriate settings that disturbed me. At 15 or 16, when I started receiving sexual signals of a sort from older men, I didn’t have a problem with it provided it occured out of the circle of trust I had with family friends and teaching staff, and provided it was non-threatening.
For example, an older man looking at me in public in “that” way didn’t affect me, but I wasn’t comfortable with catcalls or whistles from groups of men (I’m still not). I think it’s important to acknowledge that being seen as desirable in some situations, as part of being a “whole” person, and being comfortable with that, is part of finding your identity as a young woman.
Hugo, I know you don’t mean to imply this, but when you said that some girls hide their sexuality and others use it to get approval from older men, you made it sound like there’s not any other options. I neither hide my sexuality nor do I flaunt it. If some perverted older man wants to say nasty things to me, I ignore him.
Absolutely, Amanda. I should have made it clearer that the “some” (in both instances) did not mean that there aren’t other approaches and responses to nascent sexuality.
Jonathan, I am with you completely. I wanted to stress that my position was not based primarily on a fear of losing my job, but rather on a desire to be a positive agent in the lives of the young.
Erica, you wrote:
“It seems both hypocritical and dangerous to expect a public that lusts after adolescents to refrain from the pursuit of one in real life. even if only in their mental lives.”
As much as I would like NOT to agree with you, I think you’re on the mark with that.
Stephanie, I honor your experiences and have no intention of demeaning them. But the exceptions do not invalidate general rules, and I continue to believe such relationships to be problematic — which is not the same thing as saying that they are devoid of joy, mutual respect, and commitment.
I missed a lot of this kind of attention in high school and the first few years of college because of my weight, but the first time I was aware of an older man looking at me in a different way was when I was 11 or 12 (with breasts that I didn’t pay much attention to except to hide them). One of my teachers showed up at my house early one weekend morning to bring a book to my older brother, who’d been a student of his. I was wearing a nightgown that was a bit shredded and more revealing than I realized, because Mr. Johnson looked very embarrassed. I wasn’t sure exactly why until my older sister clued me in, and then *I* was embarrassed.
In my 20s, when I dated a lot of men in their 30s and 40s, I found the experience somewhat exasperating because they didn’t always give me credit for being mature or smart or whatever. The most blatant was my boyfriend from my third year of law school. He was 13 years older than I was, newly divorced, but a first-year. He just couldn’t give me credit for knowing more than he did — he’d ask me something about one of the first-year concepts, and instead of admitting that he didn’t understand, he’d smile at me and say, “You’re so cute.” I eventually got rid of him.
It’s worth noting that the phenomenon goes both ways: the real-life Scarlett Johansson, for instance, has commented that “men don’t get really good until they’re over thirty” and owned up to having public sex with actor Benicio Del Toro when she was 19 and he 37. No real insight here, just acknowledging the range of attitudes given her portrayed character.
I’ll be curious to hear how Scarlett feels about that when she’s 37.
Hugo, this was a great post. It’s late, I’m tired, and I have no insight to contribute, but…good job.
Why must older men who are with younger women fail to see them “as full human beings rather than objects of desire”?
Because for an awful lot of older men, the whole point of dating very young (not merely ‘younger’) women is that they are objects of desire, and not much more.
Stephanie, I’m not going to comment on your relationship because obviously I don’t know you at all. But I will say that the “What’s the big deal about older guys?” issue looks very different from the older side of the equation.
Hugo - I can’t thank you enough for touching on the roles and responsibilities of older professors and their younger female students. My friend is still devastated by an experience with one of your former PCC colleagues (to my understanding he left the college a couple years ago). Last year (in another nearby College) this man - then 43- saw fit to flirt and become personal with my friend the entire semester… even exchanging gifts with her… only to declare once the semester was over that he was just trying to keep her enrolled in his class (because he was losing so many students, and she was a positive contribution to class lectures).
It can never be stressed enough that teachers should NEVER get personally involved with their students. Sadly my friend had to watch numerous other much younger girls in her class fall victim to this man’s unprofessional flirtations.
And to make the whole matter even worse… the man turned out to be gay.
As far as I’m concerned, Hugo, you’ve succeeded wildly. You rock.
Hello Hugo, I am MAUS, one of those terrible misogynists from Man Power. I was going to ignore you and let you be. Since you have seen fit to malign me, that will change. My primary goal in the Men’s Activism movement is to eliminate the culture of misandry that has infected our education system. I attended Canada’s foremost feminist university. Based on that experience,not anyone’s silver tongued eloquence or political rhetoric, having actualy seen what would occur if feminism had unchallanged power,I will state that I would rather be shot by feminists than ruled by them.
My comment on this article will be in my blunt vitriolic style:—
“Some of my best friends are older men, I just wouldn’t like to see my sister going out with one”
Do you now see your own bigotry?
When I make posts at BC Fathers,I have a signing quote that reads:”I miss the old days when sex was a sin rather than a social injustice”
Hugo, I was once studying to be a minister. One of the crimes that I hold against feminists is that they drove the Chancellor of the Theological Seminary to commit suicide in the wake of a sexual misconduct witch hunt. He was a good and decent man. He was not even one of the people accused.He simply said that it bore the hallmarks of a witch hunt and THAT put him on the same moral ground as those who deny that the Holocaust happened and only his dismissal or resignation would atone for that sin.
I really don’t think that you would be able to persuade his widow that feminism is beyond question or reproach nor that the men brave enough to question or reproach it in the face of being reviled as politically incorrigible or exiled to sexual Siberia are particularly evil.
Protestant restorationists have formed a very unholy alliance with feminists. The notion that sex is a sin is now a virtually impossible hard sell….sex as a social injustice is what the belief pimps of the world are now hardselling, and I think the word pimp is apt, someone who lives off the avails of gullible women.
What I want is simple Hugo, I want the truth to prevail, the whole truth. Not the mask of propriety that people wear in church on Sunday that doesn’t go with anything they wear when they cabaret on Monday.
Hugo,my father was a mason back when that had clout and power. The fix was in. I could have been a Naval chaplain or a professor of philosophy or religeous studies, except for one thing, I’ve got a bad dose of integrity. Integrity is sort of like diabetes,folks who have it just can’t seem to help themselves. I could have been one fine fat prosperous Pharasee today if the smell of bullshit didn’t revolt me so much.
I deem it absolutely despicable that someone who would pretend to be an ordained minister of the lineage of the apostles of Christ would spout such crap. For one thing, Mary was no older than fourteen and Joseph was no younger than fifty.
I can recall a conference on “inclusive language”in the church, an amendment that would leave “our father”in the Lord’s Prayer was being debated. A lesbian ordained minister got into a rant:
“So you insist on saying ‘our father’ Why? Are your certain God has a penis? If so, who has “He” ever used it on? A littel girl of previously chaste character in an act that would constitute statutory rape in any jurisdiction in chrisendom”
No one replied to her. The subject was quickly changed. What say you to this Hugo? I have not attended a Christian church since nor will I ever.
For one thing, Mary was no older than fourteen and Joseph was no younger than fifty.
Where was this mentioned in Scriptures? I missed this part. The Talmud recommends eighteen as the proper age at which a kohen should marry–I rather doubt that the Jewish culture of the time expected Israelites to wait several decades longer than their priests for marriage.
A lot of times older men who make catcalls at young women or girls don’t do it because they want to be nice to the girl, they do it because it’s the same kind of power thing as rape, although not of the same calibre. I used to get more of those when I was younger and the men could clearly see that I would only get embarassed and not be able to say anything smart and stinging back.
Now that I am older I can use this dirty older men / innocent younger women thing as fantasy material… I am 32 and just had a heck of a time with a 61-year old man… But I think that I am the dirtier one of us two…
Where was this mentioned in Scriptures? I missed this part.
It’s not in Scriptures, mythago. Rather, there’s a longstanding (but not necessarily longstanding enough to go back to Jesus’ time) Church tradition that Joseph was much older than Mary, and that Mary was very young.
I rather doubt that the Jewish culture of the time expected Israelites to wait several decades longer than their priests for marriage.
It’s not that Joseph is supposed to have waited until fifty to ever get married; it’s that he’s supposed to have been a widower when he married. This is one explanation of why Scriptures refer to Jesus as having brothers and sisters (one of whom, James, was quite prominent in the early Church as Jesus’ brother), while Catholic tradition has Mary remaining forever virgin (the other explanation is that possibly “brother” was used loosely to mean “cousin”).
Personally, I assume that Joseph and Mary were of some age that would be considered legal for Jews to marry at the time, and that they had sex, celibate marriage not being, to the best of my knowledge, customary in Judaism. Maybe Joseph really was a widower who was older than Mary, or maybe that tradition arose to explain the brothers and sisters.
“those who appear outwardly fully adult may still be in need of our care and protection.â€
“I’m convinced that young girls badly need the presence of loving older men who are not parents or relatives, but who are still fundamentally safe.â€
“Now, at the risk of the accusation of narcissism, I will share that I do get plenty of female students who flirt with me, a few quite brazenly. (My colleagues tell me it will happen less after I turn 40.) I don’t let it go to my head much, because I understand that it’s not Hugo they really want. At the risk of sounding paternalistic, what they really want is to be noticed, to be seen, to be validated as good and worthy and interesting individuals. And they believe — with good reason in most cases — that using their sexuality is hands down the best (if not the only way) to get that attention that they rightly want.â€
I just happened to come across this post while doing a search online and felt the need to say that I appreciated (and could relate to) the things you said Hugo - especially the statements I quoted above. In my opinion, anyone criticizing your post is missing the whole point. It sounds to me like your interest is in protecting those that are more vulnerable and naïve or simply helping others to feel safe. The issue or problem isn’t really about differences in age. The problem is when a person abuses the power they might have over another individual or when a person takes advantage of another person’s lack of experience.
I agree that in certain cases, it’s not the man that the younger woman wants. It’s simply the validation. It really bothers me when I hear statements like, “well, I only gave her what she wanted,†or “she was asking for it.†The more experienced would quickly realize what it is that the younger woman really wants or needs. A man with integrity would choose not to take advantage of that woman’s need.
I wish that there were more who understood and believed as you do. I too believe it would make such a difference if we all could feel safe, protected, and understood.
Thank you, atib!
Hugo,
As for your Scarlett Johansson comment, I’m more surprised that anyone seeks a scientific, hard-and-fast rule when the realm of a woman’s feelings forms the centerpiece of what is being looked at. Womens’ feelings change dramatically over time. And while I have the utmost respect for that in my personal life, designing any sort of public policy to protect the mutability of womens’ feelings is disrespectful to the requisite iron-clad, purposefulness of law.
“Safe, protected, and understood.” Okay, I buy the need, and I’ve seen it myself. But don’t you think talking about only this one issue within a vaccuum is woefully inadequate? Well, unless all you’re concerned with is making a valid point to boost one’s ego, or to make one feel like a moral and upright person by taking a stand on one issue…despite ignoring all the other ones.
While I agree it’s morally wrong for a teacher to pursue a student, I can’t help but notice the following trends:
1. Parents working longer hours means children grow up in homes that are less stable.
2. High divorce rates (government figure is 50%, but looking around at the world suggests a figure more like 70% to 80%) means that children grow up in less stable homes.
3. Since fathers are much more likely to commute longer distances from home in order to work, children in particular are left lacking in fathers, even when there is no divorce.
4. Child custody laws mean a father is much more likely to be rendered absent from the childrens’ lives than are mothers.
5. The ever-rising median age of marriage in this country, coupled with high college costs, means that many of the male teachers between 22 and 30 are likely to be single and in debt heavily enough that they’re not looking to get married any time soon.
6. The feminist arguement that marriage is oppressive towards women, and that true liberation means sexual liberation, has trickled down to teenagers. See B. Spears and so on. Teenage attitudes toward sex is opportunistic, hedonistic, and cutthroat - rather than nervous, nurturing, and relationship-centered.
7. The vast majority of teenagers do not learn about sex from their parents (probably because they’re never home) but from other teenagers, and much worse, television shows and movies.
8. Whether you like the idea or not, permitting women in to the workplace, and allowing them to meet their own financial needs, has created a culture in which many women between the ages of 20 and 35 have tremendous chips on their shoulder. “I am woman, Hear me roar.” “Live life to the fullest (with the footnote of in the most competitive way possible).” It has reached the point where many men expect a woman to be confrontation, aggressive, amd argumentative - rather than mysterious, nurturing, or (God forbid) charming.
9. A side effect of Item 8 is that women do not go in to relationships in modern times for old-fashioned reasons. Especially within younger women, the prevailing motives are *NOT* comfort, security, nurturing, or (hah hah hah) mutual personal growth - but merely to be validated, to feel sexy, or to have sex with an attractive men. This has the effect of having 90% of women chasing 10% of men, with 90% of men being left out of the loop.
So let’s mix, shall we? Take a girl who is just beginning to discover her sexuality, who isn’t close to either of her parents - and may in fact be longing for a deep connection with any adult. Put her in a social environment where 10% of the kids are considered popular, while the rest are viewed by their peers as lower than dirt. Give her no parental guidance as to the significance and emotional risks of getting sexually involved with anyone, while immersing her in an environment where sexual conquest is the most pricy bargaining chip in the quest for popularity. Surround her with male peers who, let’s face it, are very likely to be highly emotionally and intellectually immature, and cannot provide her with any life guidance - being so misguided themselves.
Throw in a male teacher who is in debt, will not get married any time soon (can’t afford it). He might have wanted a girlfriend for a long time, but he doesn’t like how women act. Plus, they don’t much like him anyway, because he doesn’t fall in to that 10% category. He displays kindness to everyone, but more importantly - he is the first reliable and male constant in her life. He is patient while her peers are impulsive. He is well-spoken while her peers are loud and routinely mangle the English language. He can provide years of life experience while her peers can only offer generalizations based on prejudice, wide-eyed thinking, and bad television. Due to being older, he is less likely to “think” with his hormones, and more so with his heart. He has dealt with many more people (women included) than have her peers, so he is much more likely to see her as a unique individual, in both woman and non-womanly terms. And lastly, her (dare I say it?) innocence and sweetness compared to the typical aggressiveness and confrontational nature of the modern women in *his* peer group will stand in such stark contrast that he’d be braindead to not notice it…
I’m not saying it’s right for anything to happen between them. But consider that throughout most of history, and throughout most of the world today, a 50 year old man dating a 20-something year old woman is not considered a big deal. It’s only in a feminized society where women are modernized (translated, exceptionally difficult to deal with and most likely to use her freedom to create her own misery) where this is noteworthy.
And besides wouldn’t you sort of *expect* it to happen? I mean, strictly from a design perspective, wouldn’t you *expect* male teachers and female students to be sleeping with each other at record rates - solely because the culture is seemingly designed to make it happen?
Ironically, enough the epidemic seems to be the other way around. Female teachers are molesting and having sex with underaged boys - and in typical feminist double-speak, no one seems to care. (Links will be gladly provided for those who ask.)
I assure you that this pro-feminist is appalled by all incidents of child abuse, regardless of the gender of the victim and the gender of the accused. But a few highly-publicized cases merely bears witness to the fact that men’s abuse of girls is too common to receive publicity.
From a design perspective, it might make sense. But I am leery of arguments from design. You are right about many aspects of contemporary culture and the appeal of these age-gap relationships — but that doesn’t mitigate an older man’s responsibility to act in the best interests of a young woman who despite an outer facade of independence and agency may indeed still not know what she really wants.
Hugo - “But a few highly-publicized cases merely bears witness to the fact that men’s abuse of girls is too common to receive publicity.”
That, Sir, is one *hell* of a hypothesis, now where’s the proof?
I can see what you’re saying - that old joke among journalists, “When a dog bites a man, that’s not news, but when a man bites a dog…” But again, where’s the damned proof of this?
For my money, my equally unproveable assertion is that people are so brainwashed in to thinking that men abuse girls - that they don’t report it when it happens. But again, your statement is just as unproveable as mine.
You continue, “From a design perspective, it might make sense. But I am leery of arguments from design. You are right about many aspects of contemporary culture and the appeal of these age-gap relationships — but that doesn’t mitigate an older man’s responsibility to act in the best interests of a young woman who despite an outer facade of independence and agency may indeed still not know what she really wants.”
The sole reason I argue from design perspectives is to make people think more deeply about their ideals. Defining responsibility in a culture that doesn’t define *anything* definitively is a random exercise. So now that you’ve randomly defined what responsibility is, what design do you have to enforce that definition on everyone else? Because the classic approach we have now, wherein we assume the girl is helpless and the man is a prick, isn’t powerful enough to prevent these things from happening.
Hell, I could even argue that since male high school teachers tend to have more knowledge in their field than the women teachers, that getting rid of males will have the unintended side effect of dumbing down the entire school.
Your serve, Sir…
Meta Meta X, if you want sexual assault and abuse statistics, the FBI is a good place to start. Lots of stuff broken down by sex. Go here (PDF file) and scroll down to page 8. The DOJ claims 96% of sexual offenders who offend against children are men.
You’re right, bad things happen because our institutions of higher learning are filled with human beings. And human beings are flawed and broken cratures in many ways. But that just means we need to redouble our efforts to create safer space for all, especially students. And when we are talking about schools, safe space, by defnition, is desexualized space.
Hugo, Google brought me to your blog. I am an accomplished professional, 37 and male. Two days ago I met an 18 year old female. I have been the perfect gentleman, but she drives me wild. She is mature for her age, a renegade of sorts, beautiful, and very well read. Should I let the moment pass or act upon my feelings?
I appreciate your conservative approach, but should that approach apply in all situations? I do not want to exploit her by any means–nor do I want to ignore my feelings.
olguy - Well you didn’t ask me for my advice, but I’ll throw it in anyway.
From risk / reward perspective, you do realize that you are taking all the risk, and she is receiving all the rewards, right?! I mean, one false accusation, or even one well-intended flirtation can lead you to a world of legal hurt. So from strictly that perspective, the answer is clearly, don’t do it.
But since life is more complicated than that, ask yourself this: why? Why are you attracted to her? Only don’t answer it in a way like you’re trying to explain it to someone else. Be honest with yourself. Why the attraction? I mention this only because often enough when you can analyze the attraction, and explain it in simple terms that neither diminish nor unnecessarily praise the attraction, then it becomes more manageable. Telling yourself it’s wrong (or it’s right) without really understanding it can lead to an obsessive quest to prove that it’s right (or wrong), and that just leads to inner turmoil.
Is it sex? If so, don’t feel bad about it. It’s natural. Hell, that’s probably the best one to evaluate in terms of risk / reward analysis. You merely get to choose if it’s worth it to risk X in order to get to sleep with her. Simple, straightforward decision. Plus, it’s also the easiest to walk away from if you decide to walk away. You can just tell yourself that you met this attractive woman, wanted to sleep with her at first, but decided not to. Happens to every guy all the time. So your unique situation fades in to ordinaryness.
If it’s not sex, then what is it? This is where it gets to keep you up at night thinking what the hell it could be! :) Is it love? Hah, I said love!! No, really. Is it?
If so, what type? Is it that friendly love that just enjoys each other’s company? This is the easiest love, because you can just keep seeing her, make no moves, and enjoy her company. You can carry that love in the pocket of your heart, your own little secret, and feel more alive because of it.
Is it that obsessive love where you just want to possess her? *chuckles* You know that type of love doesn’t happen much nowadays with women being so strong and independent and everything. It isn’t often you can find someone over whom you feel - and are - stronger than in every way. You know more. You care more. You’ve survived more. You’ve developed a complex personality, a mixture of feminine and masculine that can see so much of the world. You can offer so much!! Or you can hurt so much!! That - is the root of possessive love: where you can choose to give honor or heartache at whim. Drunk on your own power, you can truly be shown what it means to be a gentle-man - to use that power and experience to give her the kind of love she can’t have with anyone else…
Is it protective? Does she remind you, in an odd way, of what you might be like if you could be born a female 18 years ago yet keep hold of what you know now at the age of 37? Do you feel like you’re looking at *YOU* when you’re talking to her? Subsequently, do you feel heroic - like only *YOU* can see this girl for what she is? Like only you can show her how to walk the path of her life because so much of it overlaps what you have gone through in yours?
If so, my friend, you’re going to be disappointed…and elated. There’s so much contradiction in that type of love. You’ll feel so close to her in personality, and yet so far away. One minute you’ll be talking to a young woman, the next an oversized girl. You’ll want to teach her everything so she can grow, but want to teach her nothing because of the pain that always accompanies true learning. You’ll want her to stand independently of you, but you’ll want to be so close to her so you can experience her as…yours. Your hopes, your fears, your wishes, your disappointments, your accomplishments, your shortcomings, and your highest and most passionate efforts. And because you’re smart enough to know your time with her is limited, you’ll try to distance yourself as best as you can - but you’ll want to stay close so she can learn as much as she can from you.
That love never ends “well.” She either learns what she can from you and moves on, or she resists your teaching and ends up hating you. Or you, her. It’s an unspoken contract. You teach, and she grows. If you don’t teach, you’re taking advantage of her. If she doesn’t grow, she’s using you buddy!
And if you both succeed, she leaves, and your heart breaks! But even though she leaves, she never forgets you. She looks in the mirror, and sees you. She uses her skill to accomplish something amazing for herself, and it’s you she first thinks of to thank. She experiences heartache, and it’s your strength she thinks of to guide her through it. Twenty years later she’ll be bored in a seat somewhere, and it’ll be your name she traces with her finger on the desk before her. Congratulations, my friend, you’ve achieved a painful form of immortality. ;)
Or is it *JUST* protection? Is the only thing you want to do is prevent her from being hurt? You don’t feel like you can teach her anything - all you feel is that you can be her shelter. It’s platonic. It’s strong. Hell, most would call it noble. But it’s empty, dude. To keep a woman a child, because that child is so beautiful? Don’t do that. Let her grow up.
I suppose, you *could* analyze it from her perspective. What does she want from you? Is she scared of getting hurt? But that just seems counterproductive to me. I’ve always been a go-getter and trying to decide for someone else what they want inhibits that go-get-em personality. I’m always a charge-ahead-and-see-what-happens kind of guy…
Unless of course the risk of X is too much. Hah, I just talked in a big circle! ;)
But seriously, read my post and consider it. One of the best parts about discovering the root of your attraction to someone is that once you completely know the why, you can choose to live the desire by acting upon it. Or you can choose to live the desire by *NOT* acting upon it. It can be your own private fantasy.
And above all else, good luck Dude. I hope it works itself out. I’m going through something similar myself, and it certainly isn’t easy. Best of luck!
Actually, oldguy, that’s Meta’s best post here by far. I don’t agree with all of it, but it actually captures some of the joy and the heartbreak of what I like to call April-August romances. (Screw this May-December shit, I say!)
You are not, presumably her teacher. If you are not in a position of authority over her, then I don’t see anything inherently unethical about your age disparity. But I also believe that it is possible to mentor and teach and guide without sexualizing that relationship. One problem we have is that many don’t know how to handle the mentor-mentee relationship without sexualizing or romanticizing it. That’s totally understandable, of course — and human — but it doesn’t vitiate the fact that at 18, her brain is still developing and she is still discovering who she is. Meta is right about how enticing it is for an older man to cast himself in the lead role in her discovery process — but as he himself admits, it rarely ends well.
Keep us posted, will ya?
Meta MX, dude, get yourself a blog. I don’t know if I love you or hate you, but you’ve got so much to say — good stuff — that others ought to be reading.
To Olguy - The real kick in the stones of the whole situation is that you might say to yourself, “Alright, I’m just going to be protective and nurturing, but we’ll keep sex out of it.” But one day you’ll meet her for coffee or something, and just *something* about her will turn you on and you’ll spend even more uncomfortable time trying to fight those urges as well. So even when you discover your motives, you’ll find they shift - with little explanation as to why.
To Hugo - Thanks for the compliment. It’s fairly obvious that I come from the more aggressive and mean side of the MRA tracks - but I didn’t like the one-sided hatred in some of the things they preach.
In short, I am on the dark side of the yin-yang picture, trying to find that small spot of white to temper the aggression and make my perspective more deeper and more complete…
I am really happy that you wrote about this topic. I have been very confused about an older gentleman (44 years old) that I (21 years old) have been hanging around with. I now know that I am normal, but I also realize that I am looking for love and care from an man other than my father. I need to find a safe man that isn’t going to sexualize me. I need a man to accept me. Thank you.
My first post here.
Seems a lot of you are really caught up in the ‘age’ thing.
I just fixed up two best friends…she’s 22 and he just turned 43.They’re getting along fabulously.
Another friend called me 4 years ago to say that at age 32 she’d fallen in love with a 61 year old. Her friends and family advised dumping him cause of the age issue… their rationale that he would die and leave her widowed at a young age. I advised her to follow her heart and think quality over quantity. They’ve now been married for 3 years and have a wonderful 2 year old.
And on the flip side…I’m 49 and my last boyfriend was 28…the one before him was 25.
Age is just a number…really.
If age is just a number, you’re saying that you expect to learn nothing from your experience, and improve not at all over your lifetime.
But consider that throughout most of history, and throughout most of the world today, a 50 year old man dating a 20-something year old woman is not considered a big deal.
Neither was it considered a big deal to execute a ten-year-old for stealing a loaf of bread, or to leave a baby to die of exposure if it had a birth defect. Be wary of relying on history for morality.
Hi there, I’m shocked to see someone be so biased about older men and younger women as you seem to be. Have you ever taken any formal courses on human sexuality sir? Or are you just giving us your opinion on things? Can you back up what you believe with facts from turstworthy sources?
Don’t you know that the bible is full of stories about young women and older men? I’ve lived all over the world and in most of Europe and Asia they simply don’t attach the stigma to it that you do.
I’m 58 years young now. Both of my young wives, my first one was 18 when we married and I was 28, my current one was 35 when we married and I was 53, Both women have had problems that prevented us from having children.
I’m the last male on my fathers side of the family. I’ll be damn if I let my name become extinct because of sexually inhibited folks like you. I look at and seek out women from 17 to about 30. Women older than that have already had all the children that they want and they have tied their tubes, or had their plumbing removed rendering them useless for making babies.
That is not my fault… They did that to themselves. I would never reccommend to any women to sterilize herself.
There are many simpler to not have children besides permanent sterilization.
So men in my position are forced to seek younger and younger women. Remember this sir.Nature determines when a woman is ready to have sex. She goes through something called puberty. When a woman develops breasts, underarm hair and pubic hair that is natures way of telling men this females is ready to bear children. I happen to think nature is a lot wiser than folks like you on these subjects.
I’ll bet you are one of those people who got upset when Janet Jackson showcased her lovely breast didn’t you? Adam and Eve came to Earth naked. They didn’t wear clothes until GOD confronted Eve about her making Adam eat from the forbidden tree.
Did you get upset when California kicked out a duly elected governor and elected a clown whose only claim to fame was that he killed more people per movie, in make believe that, any other actor ever has.
I’ll bet you were upset at president Clinton for getting some face from a willing adult Monica Lewinsky weren’t you? Now tell me are you upset at the Bush regime for lying to the world attacking and killing over 100,000 innocent Iraqi’s plus over 1,500 of our own beautiful men and women? 25,000 wounded.
A devilish regime that continues to lie and murder putting the lives of the American public in more danger every day by their psychotice need to kill everyone who is not white.
Those are the mountains that you should be conerned about. Don’t spend your time worrying about age differences between men and women. Older men/women have been getting it on since the beginning of time with younger men/women and I strongly suspect they will continue to do so.
Your mind is a terrible thing to waste.
And so it goes.
The Wisest Ine
To “The Wisest One”
You give me an ill feeling in my stomach when you speak of young ladies who have underarm hair and pubic hair being ready for sex. I had all of that when I was 11 years old and I certainly wasn’t ready to have sex.
You have also made a number of rather ignorant comments towards Hugo’s values and ideals that you have no place assuming.
Apparently seeing as how you have not had children yet, I am thinking that is fates way of saying you are not meant to procreate.
I hope that you look deep inside yourself and ask whether you wrote what you wrote in a subconcious plead for approval.
And you are not “the wisest one”. If you were you wouldn’t feel a need to state it.
Wise One, for someone who dislikes a scrutiny on age, I can’t help but laugh at the “58 years young”. Me, I’m 37 years old, plumbing intact even, who is damn proud of those years and has no reason to use coy expressions like “years young”. Maybe I’m far off base here, but I was raised to think that expression indicated a certain shame or embarrassment about one’s age. Hell, every day above ground is a good one; don’t subtract a day, or allude that you would if ya could. And plumbing? Must be that smoldering sensitivity that brings all those fillies to your door, huh?
And I can’t believe that someone who has actually spent 58 years on the earth hasn’t yet figured out that the presence of pubic or underarm hair, or breast size, is not a reliable indicator of whether a girl has had her first period. Or that a girl who has had a period is “ready” for childbearing physically, let alone emotionally. (I think my hip measurement was something like 28″ when I had my first period. Not very likely a seven or eight pound baby is going to pass through hips that size, no?)
Now, if I was in a cynical mood, I’d probably make some crack about how one shouldn’t go shopping for future wives in the Garanimals section of the local department store….but then again, they’re not still making Garanimals, are they? ;-)
Ageism… the last socially acceptable, indeed politically correct, PREJUDICE. Spin in anyway you want, it is what it is.
The ‘problem’ with it is socially constructed. No doubt there are still people who see a problem when people of different race or religion get together. The issue is had by the observer, in all their woundrous gossipping sanctimoney about the relationships of others.
Bigotry lives.
Me, I’m 37 years old, plumbing intact even, who is damn proud of those years and has no reason to use coy expressions like “years young”.
Word. What’s so awful about being old? It sure as hell beats the alternative.
It never ceases to amaze me how mother nature has got everything so wrong. Everything from the age of sexual reproduction through to nasty mind atlering plants. Then again nature did produce human beings, so l suppose that anything that a human being is capable of rationalising is in fact natural.
lm getting dizzy, spining around in circles.
Then again, human
Derrick, you could have sent this stuff to Penthouse and tried to get money for it.
One thing that I’d like to point out is that an older man’s perception of his power isn’t necessarily accurate. Certainly, teacher/student or employer/employee relationships have a power imbalance that makes sex within them a very bad idea. And guys who pay desperate women for sex (like the one whose obnoxious comments Hugo recently deleted from this thread) are definitely being economically exploitative. But not all relationships between older men and younger women are like that.
When I was 18, I had a brief affair with an older man. He probably thought I was stupid (I wasn’t) and naive (I was), and he was obviously only in the relationship for the sex. But his opinion of me did not materially affect my life: my college education and part-time job continued completely independently of his existence. He thought he was exploiting my naivite, and to some degree this may have been true. Had I been older, I would have pushed for a relationship on more favorable terms, and that would likely have resulted in his not getting into my pants. But really, the fact that he did get into my pants wasn’t all that significant. He got to feel like a Big Dangerous Girl-Exploiting Man, I got some decent sex, and then I broke things off with him and my life continued relatively normally. He wasn’t really all that Big and Dangerous, because the worst he could do to me was think of me as a slut. And why should his opinion be so terribly important, when he wasn’t controlling any of the resources I needed?
But why waste your sex life on a jerk who thinks badly of you?
(BTW, the person whose comments Hugo deleted was probably more like 17, not 50.)
Seeking out younger women primarily as a reproductive container to carry on the family line, and (at least implicitly by the tone of this post) discarding the ‘defective’ containers for failure to procreate seems like the most egregious failure to me. His view of women as objects is mortally disgusting. There are some things more important than carrying on a family name, as understandable a cause as that might be.
But why waste your sex life on a jerk who thinks badly of you?
Yeah, I figured this out eventually and dumped him. Just wanted to point out that his so-called power over me wasn’t nearly as great as he thought it was. When they’re not an actual threat to anyone, men like that are just pitiable, and it sort of bugs me when others think of them as dangerous or important.
I don’t know how old Derrick is, but I imagine he’s secretly compensating for the fact that he’s not much of a prize, sexually speaking. Or at least he probably doesn’t feel like one. So he has to be Big and Dangerous instead.
Often, when reading posts here, I’ve found myself wanting to comment on one or another thing you’ve said that I thought was misguided or incorrect, and subsequently been driven to (and beyond) the point of incoherent rage reading some of the other comments. At which point the one morsel of my brain still capable of expressing wisdom prevents me from commenting at all.
But here, I have to say that I think you’re 100% right. These sorts of relationships are kind of like emotional dynamite. Now, sometimes dynamite is just what the situation one faces is calling for, and nothing else will do. But it is good to remember, even in such situations, that it’s dangerous stuff.
Matt,
I welcome your comments, especially if you think they are misguided or incorrect.
Matt,
I know you are not going to belive this, but when I wrote some of those notes I didn’t know you were from Mars. Seriously,… I’m really naive, (and you know it). I didn’t know till the second year. When I finally realized we weren’t from the same planet I was in shock, and then I adjusted to it.__ Matt, I’ve never liked people from Mars, you were the first. I’ve never had any inclination in this way. I know you think I’m
mixed up, I’m not, I still don’t understand it, you’re an anomaly, a paradox in my life.__And it certainly doesn’t help that we have never talked about this either.
Matt, don’t go ballistic, just try to communicate with me.
although I have tried many times to determine why, I can not understand why my strong attraction to much younger women persists…I just turned 50, but I don’t feel any differently in many ways than when I was 30, so being so attracted to 24-30 year old women feels perfectly natural…on the positive side, its not just their youthful appearance, but their vitality, and adventurous attitude toward life…most people become more resistant to change as they age, but I have always embraced it and still love sponteneity in myself and others…from the news and what’s going on in Hollywood, it seems far most common place these days for the younger man, older women, and though I so enjoy the company of young women, few view me as potential dating partners…….
JC,
I think you are wrong about age being a deterrent for dating younger women. It’s all in your mind….I bet younger women are attracted to you, you just don’t think they are. __I know what you mean about having a younger attitude, and being older. I’m 50 and I act like a teenager sometimes.
Speaking as a 21 year old females point of view I don’t think that being 50 years old will deter young women. There are two kinds of older men that try to pick me up, the ones that are so forward that I think that they are dirty old men and the other are friendly, outgoing and that I don’t feel threatened by. Just have fun and let the women come to you!
JC,
When I was 32, recently divorced, and a single mom, I dated a 50yo gentleman whom I still care for deeply (and my husband knows it!). This gentleman taught me a lot about myself, including the fact that I am worthy of being loved and loved well.
Because he was dealing with issues related to his aging parents, the 18 yr difference in our ages began to bother him, so the relationship didn’t last. But the lessons he taught me are still with me.
Because of him, I didn’t settle for less than what I need in my life. Because of him, I was able to see the person my husband is beneath the gruff exterior he presented when we met. Because of the lessons he taught me, I have had the determination to stay with this marriage through the hard times to come through to the care and understanding we now have.
God blessed me greatly by bringing that gentleman into my life. I wouldn’t trade my time with him for anything in the world. I just wish my husband and I could tell him how much he means to us and to our relationship, but he’s in another state and I don’t have his mailing email address.
May you be blessed as we have been.
Betty, Anon, & Caitriona…..thank you very much as I appreciate your comments and encouragement…
and I certainly am aware that approaching any woman, younger or not, can be difficult, and I am often overly concerned as to how I’ll come across…(especially with much younger women), but there is no doubt that the best of any dating or romantic relationships, whether short or long term, starts out as friendships….I just ended a relationship with a 34 year old woman for issues unrelated to age….possessiveness is such a deal breaker….the ideal relationship is like three lives…you each have your own life that includes some alone time and time for separate interests, and then you enjoy your life and times together to share whatever common interests you may already have or explore new ones you’ve only just considered…..but then I also need some private time to write as I enjoy writing short stories… and just if not more important, I enjoy time spent together, for sailing, wave-running, dancing, hiking, etc….Funny, I never felt awkward when I was younger, but as I get older, even though I may look and live like I’m younger than I am, I’m still uneasy approaching younger woman sometimes, because its always more difficult without having that opportunity to develop a friendship first….but if I learned anything, it’s to remain forever hopeful…..
Hi - interesting post. Stumbled across it as I was looking for answers to - or maybe to justify - my own predicament.
I’m 20 years old and I’m crazy about a 52 year old (family friend). I’ve known him for as long as I can remember. We’ve always been kinda close… he took the role of a “favourite uncle” early in life and as I got older, we started spending more time together (we share a common interest that finds us bumping into each other with alarming regularity). Anyway, he’s a good friend.
He’s been there for me when I’ve needed someone to talk to and couldn’t go to my parents. He’s always kept an eye out for me. Always says hi and gives me a kiss on the cheek in greeting.
When I was 18 - totally out of the blue - he sent me an SMS message saying “If I said you had a beautiful body, would you hold it against me?” Corny pick-up line, I know… but it appealed to my slightly insane sense of humour - one that he shares.
It was the first suggestive remark and I did NOT feel threatened or cheapened in anyway. I was hugely flattered. It started a year-long “game”… who could come up with the most suggestive remark. During that time, I came to see him in a different light… and noticed that I WAS attracted to him, sexually. He’s not gorgeous (like a Sean Connery or a Harrison Ford) but there’s something about him. He’s not rich. Doesn’t hold a high-powered job. He’s a regular guy with a cheeky grin, sparkle in his eye and a bucket-load of appeal.
Anyway, the messages went from suggestive to raunchy and one say he asked me if I was uncomfortable and wanted him to stop. I - honestly - said no. It was that moment that I started considering him as a potential partner. I’m not someone to jump into something without thinking (according to some, I think too much) and so I started agonising over whether I wanted to take that step. And realised I did. And with him. Obviously I was physically ready - but emotionally? More agonising. And I decided that I was, after much thought. And I know I trust him - 110%. With my life.
So one night, we decided to meet up. I can’t begin to describe how I felt when he first kissed me that night. It took all my self-restraint not to tremble. Anyway, we were talking and mucking around (we get along like a house on fire) and clothes started to come off…
And then he stopped. Said he felt like an a**hole and couldn’t do it. Said he felt guilty doing this behind my parents’ back. Even though I wanted it to happen.
We ended up getting back into our clothes. He didn’t stay all night. My first thought after he walked out the door was “My God, I love that man…” And then, I was crushed. After so much preparation (emotional) I felt kinda empty.
Things were a little awkward between us for a little while. It’s all good now, though. I guess we’re both acting like it never happened… I still get a kiss on the cheek when I see him. We still muck around. And I still love him. Respect him. And deep down, I hope that something might happen one day… even though that little “incident” happened almost two years ago now.
I can’t explain why I’m so attracted by this man who’s 32 years my senior. I don’t see why it matters - it’s not like the age difference makes him any less human. He can think, and feel, and love just like anyone else. He has wants and needs. And I REALLY don’t understand why people see it as wrong.
I’m starting to wonder if I should ask him if anything will ever happen. As hard as I try, I can’t stop thinking about that night and how I felt. I have such a strong attachment to him - maybe coz he was my first kiss? (I’m not sure if he knows that). He DOES know how I feel about him though. He still does show a bit of interest in me… man, I don’t know.
Does anyone here have any suggestions? Thanks in advance.
And I REALLY don’t understand why people see it as wrong.
Because he has 32 years of experience, maturity and wisdom that you don’t, and is a family friend. A lot of people see that as taking advantage of your inexperience and willingness to trust him.
Cindy,
I found this web site in the same manor as you, I had been struggling with the decission as to whether I wanted to persue a man 25 years older than me. I am 21, so I am about your age. I understand so deeply the feelings that you have for him as I am there myself. I know it’s hard to put into perspective right now, you need to think about if it worked out. When you are in your 40’s you will be dealing with a senior in his 70’s. And I would love to say that it shouldn’t matter, but on some level it does, are you going to be able to deal with that? Can you deal with it if he breaks your heart? If you can deal with those things I say love him! Love him, if that’s how you feel. I know that I loved my older man and now my heart is aching, but I don’t regret a single day.
I’m not sure why no one is pointing out the obvious, and that is that old dudes just aren’t that hot.
My immature self still needs that visual stimulation, I guess.
Quoting Drumgirl…
I’m not sure why no one is pointing out the obvious, and that is that old dudes just aren’t that hot.
My immature self still needs that visual stimulation, I guess.
Funny.. I was thinking the same thing about the reasons “old dudes” try to go out with young(er) women. Maybe men and women are more alike than we like to admit..
Michael, I think you’re right. And on a more serious note, perhaps that’s what scares people about female teachers having sex with students. Could it be that some WOMEN are capable of being sexual predators, just like some men?
We, as a society, try to shove this under the rug and pretend that women could never behave like that. But obviously, they do.
And you know, some of those 16-year-olds are hot. (Am I a beast for admitting that?) But like Hugo has said, the older person must act responsibly. I would never dream of taking advantage of a 16-year-old boy, even if he thinks he wants me to!
And I’m not completely shallow. My fiance, at 23, is developing a bit of a spare tire since graduating from college. But I still see his 20-year-old hot bod when I look at him. Obviously, I’m in love with the guy, so that has probably something to do with it. :)
and that is that old dudes just aren’t that hot
“Hot” is relative. Are old dudes as likely to be as cute and hardbodied as younger men? No. But there’s more to attraction than how taut the guy’s butt is.
“But there’s more to attraction than how taut the guy’s butt is.”
True. The pecs are very important as well.
(hey drumgurl…..what about the thighs?! I’m a sucker for a man with well-developed quads and hamstrings!)
ahem.
Sigh. mythago’s right; there’s a lot more to attractiveness than the body itself. And some older men find inexperience the main attraction in younger women; they will reject a woman their own age who looks much younger because of her age and experience.
I know plenty of young women(40 and under) who think Sean Connery is the man.
And on a more serious note, perhaps that’s what scares people about female teachers having sex with students. Could it be that some WOMEN are capable of being sexual predators, just like some men?
There are plenty of female “sexual predators” out there, it’t just that most guys don’t look at themselves as victims for being “exploited” by older women. And we don’t report it to the cops or our parents as often, because, frankly, we don’t want to mess up a good thing. If we are lucky, we might just get “exploited” a couple more times… I’m not sure who actually get’s scared about this, but it certainly isn’t the (average) young guy.
Why do you think Mrs. Robinson hit such a nerve?
“There are plenty of female “sexual predators” out there, it’t just that most guys don’t look at themselves as victims for being “exploited” by older women. And we don’t report it to the cops or our parents as often, because, frankly, we don’t want to mess up a good thing. If we are lucky, we might just get “exploited” a couple more times… I’m not sure who actually get’s scared about this, but it certainly isn’t the (average) young guy.”
That’s because boys and young men are told that they SHOULDN’T complain if they receive any amount of sexual attention from a female, age difference or not, adult/child relationship or not. “Only men can be predators,” they are told, and if they actually complain about a woman at work sexually harassing them, or a female teacher coming on to them, or a woman actually taking their virginity away without their consent, they will be called “wimps” or “gays,” the latter of which isn’t an insult, but it’s intended as such by those who allege it.
Chalk up one more problem with “gender roles.”
I think it goes deeper than that, bmmg. It’s just not considered normal for a man to not want sex–the myth is that men always want sex all the time with any woman who is even vaguely decent-looking, and a man who doesn’t is probably queer. (And as with many gender-role stupidities, this is something people are harsher on their own gender about.)
Michael, there are plenty of younger people (male and female) who have sex with older men or women and are fine with it. The problem is that there’s not a lot of room for them to say that they’re not OK with it.
“I think it goes deeper than that, bmmg. It’s just not considered normal for a man to not want sex–the myth is that men always want sex all the time with any woman who is even vaguely decent-looking, and a man who doesn’t is probably queer.”
Absolutely, mythago, and that’s all part of the “gender roles,” and you should just hear/see the things said/written to me because it isn’t true about me. There’s nothing like being told you need to see a doctor simply because sex is low on the priority list for you.
“I think it goes deeper than that, bmmg. It’s just not considered normal for a man to not want sex–the myth is that men always want sex all the time with any woman who is even vaguely decent-looking, and a man who doesn’t is probably queer.”
I agree about gender roles being different and how both sexes are conditioned differently. I just disagree about what that conditioning is. Women are conditioned from birth that sex is bad. Guys aren’t. Guys as a result are less uncomfortable about sex and don’t feel stigmatized about having it. They aren’t made to feel guilty about having sex and grow up having less hangups about it.
A guy isn’t called a “slut” for having sex and is even “encouraged” (as bmmg39 pointed out) by his male peers and family. Even women point out his “flaws” if he is not sexually active, which is highly hypocritical to me.
The problem with generalizations is that, well, they are just that, generalizations. Your milage may vary. My point is, that the average guy just isn’t going to complain a lot if he gets “exploited.” He might even [Egad!], enjoy it and more importantly, not feel guilty about it.
I would rather feel not guilty than stigmatized..
Back to the conversation about older men not being as attractive as younger men…
I don’t know if I am weird or not, but I find it very seldom that I find a man my own age attractive. An older man has a few lines on his face and many still have hot bodies, if they take care of themselves. Anyways, just thought I would throw that in.
I like hot older guys!
“Because he has 32 years of experience, maturity and wisdom that you don’t, and is a family friend. A lot of people see that as taking advantage of your inexperience and willingness to trust him.”
That’s understandable. I can see both sides of the arguement. BUT he’s hardly taking “advantage” of anything…. I’m the one who’s made the conscious decision to be with him. He hasn’t bribed/conned me into anything. If I didn’t want to; didn’t feel comfortable, I wouldn’t - it’s as simple as that.
I believe we have a similar “social” life too - we both officiate different sports (me - tennis, him - soccer) and we both love to watch soccer… and that’s about it, really. I don’t do the clubbing thing. I’m in bed before 10.30pm most nights, lol. I have no interest in loud parties, loud music or drinking “for the fun of it” like most others my age; I hardly touch alcohol and don’t smoke/do drugs. The only vaguely wild event I’ve been to recently was a Neil Diamond concert. And that rocked, big time. :)
And just on to the older men being more attractive than younger ones… there are things that are more important than looks. I personally have to be intellectually attracted to someone before I notice a physical attraction. And usually the first thing that I notice is a guy’s eyes and smile. But, saying that… this guy I like IS a soccer Ref… meaning he’s pretty darn fit. Disgustingly so! Nice legs and butt on this one!
Most of the men that I see are in better shape then me and they are usually ten or more years older.
“A guy isn’t called a “slut” for having sex and is even “encouraged” (as bmmg39 pointed out) by his male peers and family. Even women point out his “flaws” if he is not sexually active, which is highly hypocritical to me.
The problem with generalizations is that, well, they are just that, generalizations. Your milage may vary. My point is, that the average guy just isn’t going to complain a lot if he gets “exploited.”"
We’ll if we’re talking about statutory rape of a boy by a female teacher, for example, it doesn’t matter if he feels exploited. It’s still a rape, just as it is if a male teacher has “consensual” sex with a girl.
Other than that, whether or not a person is exploited depends in part upon whether or not the “exploited” person is acting willingly. A guy may or not complain, but part of the reason he may not complain is that he’s been told that he’s supposed to be enjoying it. If a woman grabs the butt of a male stranger at a bar, he immediately knows that many would believe she is allowed to do this (though she isn’t without his permission) and that he’d be a wuss if he were to complain. It’s a two-parter: a.) he’s expected to enjoy any sexual attention, invited or not, and b.) even if for whatever reason he DOESN’T enjoy it he’s still to be a gentleman and let the lady have her fun.
BUT he’s hardly taking “advantage” of anything…. I’m the one who’s made the conscious decision to be with him.
The issue isn’t whether he is forcing you. From the point of view of a young person, having an older person attracted to you is a sign of one’s own maturity. From the point of view of an older person, young people are cute but, sorry, kind of shallow. Of course this doesn’t mean every younger/older relationship is evil and manipulative, but is it really that hard to understand why people would look askance at your situation?
(Bluntly, the fact that your male friend is doing this “I want you/Oh, but I shouldn’t” game suggests that he’s not quite as mature as either of you thinks he is.)
and you should just hear/see the things said/written to me because it isn’t true about me
Oh, I believe it. It’s pathetic.
“The issue isn’t whether he is forcing you. From the point of view of a young person, having an older person attracted to you is a sign of one’s own maturity. From the point of view of an older person, young people are cute but, sorry, kind of shallow. Of course this doesn’t mean every younger/older relationship is evil and manipulative, but is it really that hard to understand why people would look askance at your situation?
(Bluntly, the fact that your male friend is doing this “I want you/Oh, but I shouldn’t” game suggests that he’s not quite as mature as either of you thinks he is.)”
Shallow is something I’ve never been called before… :-\ I don’t consider myself any more mature because I’ve caught the eye of an older man either. I DO consider myself marginally more knowledgable and confident though. I think the thing that gets me most is the fact that HE and I (not him and my parents or uncle or whatever) have been good friends for a long time. It’s a fairly common occurance to find myself deep in conversation with him for hours at gatherings (etc). People always ask what we talk about - and the only answer I give them is the truth… everything. I’m comfortable with him and always answer his questions truthfully - and I’ve seen no evidence that he doesn’t do the same in return. I’m even more open with him that I am my best friend.
My situation with him (such as it is) is not considered to be anything NEAR a romantic relationship by others. Neither of us have let on that there’s anything going on bewteen us. As far as family and friends can see when we’re together, we are two people who genuinely enjoy each others’ company. Saying that, people will always think that a man who’s going out with a younger woman is after sex and that the woman is after money (or something along those lines). I find that to be an extremely narrow-minded assumption.
Oh, and I hardly think a conscience-attack (”I want you but have too much respect for you and your family”) is a “game”. He admitted to me that, during the day before we met up, he was having second thoughts, but he didn’t want to let me down which is why he fronted for our meeting. I think it’s sweet.
I saw him briefly last night, but was working. I still got my kiss on the cheek though. :-) I may see him tonight too… oh, SO many conflicting feelings.
Oh, and I hardly think a conscience-attack (”I want you but have too much respect for you and your family”) is a “game”.
If he’s continuing to waffle about doing things with you, that’s not a sign of maturity. If he’s indeed had a conscience attack and decided that having sex with a young woman he’s known since she was ‘old enough to remember’ and who is romantically far less experienced, that’s a little different.
I DO consider myself marginally more knowledgable and confident though.
Than what?
I saw Steve Vai in concert last night. According to imdb.com, he’s 44. I found him to be an attractive older man. (But first and foremost, he’s an amazing guitarist!)
I didn’t find him “hot” in the shaggable way, though. I just found him attractive. It’s probably similar to how young men feel about Laura Bush — attractive, but not first on the “to do” list.
However, I don’t think there’s anything wrong with people who DO find older men hot. They need lovin’ too!
So Cindy, I think that as long as this guy isn’t married or anything, you should try it out. Make sure he’s not averse to older women in general, though, because we’ll all be old someday and you don’t want this guy to leave you as soon as you get a wrinkle. Dating ANYONE can turn out to be a mistake. The only way to know for sure is to go for it. If it flops, learn from it.
I saw Steve Vai in concert last night. According to imdb.com, he’s 44. I found him to be an attractive older man. (But first and foremost, he’s an amazing guitarist!)
I didn’t find him “hot” in the shaggable way, though. I just found him attractive. It’s probably similar to how young men feel about Laura Bush — attractive, but not first on the “to do” list.
However, I don’t think there’s anything wrong with people who DO find older men hot. They need lovin’ too!
So Cindy, I think that as long as this guy isn’t married or anything, you should try it out. Make sure he’s not averse to older women in general, though, because we’ll all be old someday and you don’t want this guy to leave you as soon as you get a wrinkle. Dating ANYONE can turn out to be a mistake. The only way to know for sure is to go for it. If it flops, learn from it.
We’ll if we’re talking about statutory rape of a boy by a female teacher, for example, it doesn’t matter if he feels exploited. It’s still a rape, just as it is if a male teacher has “consensual” sex with a girl.
Rape is usually defined loosely as sex under duress. Dworkinisms aside, consentual sex technically is not rape, hense the added descriptor “Statutory”. Parents and society in general call it rape, but we do so because we have determined that a minor, because of his/her age, is not equiped mentally to make that decision and therefore it can’t be consentual. I wouldn’t have bought this argument when I was that age, since when I was a teen I knew absolutely everything about everything, but of course, now having kids of my own, I certainly understand it (and whole heartedly support the law).
My point here is not whether it is right or wrong, but simply that guys are not conditioned that sex is inherently bad and are less likely to report abuse to anyone if it happens. Sexual predation is an equal opportunity crime, that for the most part goes unreported if the victim is male and the perp is female.
Other than that, whether or not a person is exploited depends in part upon whether or not the “exploited” person is acting willingly. A guy may or not complain, but part of the reason he may not complain is that he’s been told that he’s supposed to be enjoying it.
For most people, sex is enjoyable in and of itself. Boys and girls don’t need to be told that, but yes, in the media we are bombarded everyday with that message. Boys are encouraged to be sexually aggressive, however girls are tought conflicting messages. Be sexy, but oh. ..by the way, sex is bad and you are less of a person if you do it. Or worse, that sex is a tool to get what you want or need.
We do this as a society because, as a paternalistic (or maternalistic, it doesn’t matter which) society, we protect our girls more. Girls, of course bear the brunt of the responsibilty if they become pregnant. So as a parent of girls, I obviously look at that as a good thing. In a perfect world however, our society would be more consistent in the messages we send to our children, both boys and girls, about the pitfalls of early sexual activity.
Myself, I’ve always dated older women ( and married one). It’s my preference. I’ve never received the kind of comments that I’ve read here in this thread, like the ones aimed at Cindy….
“If he’s continuing to waffle about doing things with you, that’s not a sign of maturity. If he’s indeed had a conscience attack and decided that having sex with a young woman he’s known since she was ‘old enough to remember’ and who is romantically far less experienced, that’s a little different.”
Nah, he’s not really being overly suggestive. Just cheeky - and complimentary - as always. And when it comes to being cheeky, I usually give as good as I get. Those conversations with him usualy end up in fits of laughter and raised eyebrows.
It could have something to do with our background too. And my relatively strict Greek parents. His Greek is better than mine though… our society does things different. I’m proud if it, but it can be a pain in the butt too.
“I DO consider myself marginally more knowledgable and confident though.
Than what?”
Than what I was before I started mucking around with him. I know a hell of a lot more about myself and a great deal more about him. I know what it’s like to feel loved, even for a little while… I’m definately more confident around everyone. I was quite shy before our “incident”. I don’t seem to be any more. I’m also stronger for it. I can handle extreme disappointment. I know my faults and limitations and he encourages me to push boundaries and better myself. And he’s not all talk, coz I’ve seen him doing it for himself too. Like last night. But that’s a different story.
I’ve been away so I’m late to this discussion, but I will say that though I stand by my post, I’m willing to give Cindy and her 52 year-old the benefit of the doubt here, if only because she is so clear about her own agency. Still, mythago’s concerns are very much my concerns as well. Cindy, best of luck.
consentual sex technically is not rape, hense the added descriptor “Statutory”
No, that’s not why the added descriptor. “Statuory” because the law says that below a certain age, people cannot give consent. Consensual sex with an underage person is a legal oxymoron. That’s why the common term is statutory RAPE, not statutory SEX.
So as a parent of girls, I obviously look at that as a good thing.
As a parent of girls, I look at that as a terrible thing. How on earth can you think it a ‘good thing’ that girls are taught sex is both a tool and shameful for them to do it, but boys are taught to get some at any cost? Do you think that is good for your daughters and protects them from making poor choices?
FWIW, if Cindy were a young man talking about getting hit on by a much older female family friend as soon as he turned 18, I’d say the same thing.
Mythago: “No, that’s not why the added descriptor. “Statuory” because the law says that below a certain age, people cannot give consent. Consensual sex with an underage person is a legal oxymoron.”
Not correct. It happens all the time. Back when I was dealing with teenaged kids, my seventeen-year-old son had a fifteen-year-old girlfriend, and they were sexually active (they weren’t interested in my opinions on the matter). There was much discussion in the family as he was about to turn eighteen. He visited his girlfriend the night before, because the next day, he would be subject to arrest, a fine, and a long prison term, should she get angry at him, or her parents decide to press charges.
There is no stautory rape when both are minors - they can and do give consent. The law does recognize a difference between forcible rape and rape by statute. The fact that sex between an adult and a minor was consensual changes the nature of the charge. Statutory rape can be charged as a misdemeanor or even not prosecuted, at the discretion of the DA in many states, which is clearly not true in instances of forcible rape. This is because the law DOES indeed recognize the ability of minors to give consent, and thus there is leeway to take this into account.
And, as one of those irritating MRAs, I cannot help but take advantage of this opportunity to point out the societal misandry that is reflected in the penalties assessed against female statutory rapists compared with that of male offenders. (And yes, there is societal misogyny as well. It is not such a moral and intellectual stretch to acknowledge and address both, without the compulsion to minimize either, or rush to claim the “most victimized” title.)
One more point: Minors can be charged with stautory rape as well, if there is a certain age difference between the two, in some states. I have only heard of such charges applied to minor males, however. I would love to hear of a case where a minor girl was charged under such a law.
As a parent of girls, I look at that as a terrible thing. How on earth can you think it a ‘good thing’ that girls are taught sex is both a tool and shameful for them to do it, but boys are taught to get some at any cost? Do you think that is good for your daughters and protects them from making poor choices?
If you read my post a little closer, you’ll find that the part I think is a good thing is that we protect our girls more, because they bear the brunt of the responsibility for pregnancies. Do you think that is a bad thing? I also, as a father, approve of statutory rape laws as far as discouraging adults from making mistakes that hurt our children.
I certainly don’t think it’s a good thing to send our children mixed messages about sex. I think some women have been hurt by negative sexual messages taught as children and teens.. And boys suffer as well, only different messages on the opposite end of the spectrum are given to them. And different consequences result from those messages.
As for the term “statutory”, there is a difference of course. Forcible sex with a minor is “Sexual Assault of a Child” whereas Statutory rape is not necessarily forceable. Forceable rape of a child (girl or boy) would not be charged under a Statutory offence..
I’ve been away so I’m late to this discussion, but I will say that though I stand by my post, I’m willing to give Cindy and her 52 year-old the benefit of the doubt here, if only because she is so clear about her own agency.
I was fairly certain at that age that I was “clear about my own agency”. In fact, I thought I knew just about everything about everything. Boy did I have a rude awakening when I got older.
At the age of 21, I knowingly chose to listen to my fears instead of what I knew I should have done. If Cindy knows herself well and gives herself room to grow *with* him instead of away from him, then the relationship with the 52yo can be the best thing in the world for her.
Aww, c’mon Michael. I KNOW I don’t know everything. I don’t pretend to. To do so would be naive…
What I DO know is that I’ve thought it through. Debated with myself for months. And it just feels right. There’s nothing uncomfortable about it.
Thanks for the good wishes. I guess I’ll just let things ride and see what happens for now. Am going to an engagement on Saturday and will most probably see him there. If there’s a chance for a private chat, I’ll take it.
Cheers, folks.
And to you as well, Cindy.
Is a 20 year age gap between a 27 yo and 47 yo too big? Would such a relationship, if strong physically and mentally, survive a future? Including a family?
Emrald,
My mother had an 80+ yr old patient in CCU a few years back. He wasn’t doing well at all. His wife was there with him daily, holding his hand, talking with him, great love shown by both.
She was 40 yrs younger than he. They had children together. They had a strong marriage. They had a strong love.
Each relationship is different.
Thank you for your comments! They are all helpful to me in reconciling my feelings.
Also, my 47 yo boyfriend has a 13 yo daughter and I am 27. As we pursue the relationship, I am concerned about his daughter’s feelings as well. I am from a divorced family and know I would have been disturbed if my father pursued such a young woman.
Also, I do not want others to believe this is purely a physical connection. I am not simply his eye candy. We are both well educated and in respectable professions.
Children of divorce are going to experience some challenging feelings, no matter their age or the age difference between you and them. That being said, in my experience, it was much more difficult for me when my father dated someone two years YOUNGER than me than when my mother dated someone of an age in which I was interested.
you’ll find that the part I think is a good thing is that we protect our girls more, because they bear the brunt of the responsibility for pregnancies
But you are characterizing teaching girls that they are bad people for having sex as ‘protection.’ I don’t. I also don’t agree that we really ‘protect’ our daughters when we’re sending the exact opposite message to our sons.
There is no stautory rape when both are minors - they can and do give consent.
stanton, I’ll try this again: the reason it is called STATUTORY rape is not because the statute is raping anyone, but because we presume that people at a certain age cannot consent. That is why your 17-year-old son cannot, if charged with statutory rape, raise the defense that the 15-year-old consented to sex.
It’s true that, in the real world, teenagers’ ability to consent to sex varies, and that’s why we have Romeo and Juliet laws, why DAs may decline to press charges even if it is a textbook violation of the law, etc.
By the way, it’s not merely ‘misandry’ that we treat statutory rape of females worse (at least when the perpetrator is female), but misogyny. Those poor little girls can’t possibly ever want sex and we need to protect their virtue, y’know.
Mythago: I believe we both understand stautory rape well enough. I have to comment about your last thought, however.
“By the way, it’s not merely ‘misandry’ that we treat statutory rape of females worse (at least when the perpetrator is female), but misogyny. Those poor little girls can’t possibly ever want sex and we need to protect their virtue, y’know.”
This interpretation comes because your only tool is a hammer. A little rationalization, and you convince yourself that the harsher punishment society metes out to males is misogyny. If things were to somehow shift, and females began receiving harsher sentences, then THAT would be misogyny. It is so difficult to recognize progress when you are determined to be the victim.
Stanton, I didn’t think you played the Sole Victim Game! The double standard demeans everyone, why shouldn’t we deem it both misogynist and misandrist?
But you are characterizing teaching girls that they are bad people for having sex as ‘protection.’ I don’t. I also don’t agree that we really ‘protect’ our daughters when we’re sending the exact opposite message to our sons.
If we don’t send those messages to our girls as a protective measure, then why do we do it? Certainly as a society we do send our girls the conflicting messages I mentioned. We do not help matters when we send the exact opposite messages to our sons but I guess my post did not state that specifically.
I certainly don’t think that giving our children mixed or negative messages helps at all. I think that we as a society send conflicting messages that are harmful to both girls and boys although the consequences of those messages are different.
I do think we as a society send girls negative messages about sex in a misguided effort to protect them, however, I think the cure is worse than the disease. Certainly we do it to discourage early sexual activity, but the effects of those messages can last a lifetime. They negatively impact the future relationships women have with men and create unrealistic expectations from those relationships.
The message boys are getting is harmful in that we don’t stress responsibility as a major component of sexual relationships. That hurts both boys and girls. We place tremendous pressure on our boys to ‘score’ and precious few messages about how that effects the girls in their lives and how it can negatively impact those and future relationships.
Do I think protecting our girls is a good thing? You betcha. Just not this way. I guess when it comes to my daughter, I’m a paternalistic dog. I can live with it. It goes without saying that our boys need guidance also. The two obviously go hand in hand.
Yami: We sure CAN do that - we need to do that. And if that’s what Mythago meant, then I apologize. Perhaps that’s what she meant by “merely”. I was looking for the word “also” and didn’t see it. I an too quick on the trigger sometimes.
“That is why your 17-year-old son cannot, if charged with statutory rape, raise the defense that the 15-year-old consented to sex.”
But, if the 17-year-old boy is charged for having sex with a 15-year-old girl who also “okayed” (if we’re avoiding the word “consented”) it, then shouldn’t she ALSO be charged with statutory rape?
Many of the laws, as written, address age differential, regardless of whether one or both are minors. Stautory rape, when both are minors, is usually a misdemeanor. A two or three year age difference is considered to imply a power differential sufficient to impair the ability of the younger party to give meaningful consent, up until age eighteen. It’s an arbitrary age, but I guess it has to be set somewhere.
Trish and Mythago must find it amusing to hear laymen speaking about the law. I felt so brazen in daring to attempt to correct you, Mythago, but the topic had been a big one in our house at one time. I did not mean to impugn your professional stature.
I just went out tonight and a 45 year old friend of mine kissed me… I am 21. I am confused.
I felt so brazen in daring to attempt to correct you, Mythago
As you should, on all topics. :D
I don’t find it amusing in that laymen may very well understand law, especially when they have experience with it. As a law student I worked at a large union. I went to NLRB hearings with union reps who hadn’t been to a day of law school in their life–they’d just been organizing and working so many years that they knew the NLRA backward, blindfolded and underwater, and they’d quote sections at corporate lawyers in between drags on their cigarettes.
(I do, however, find it profoundly annoying when laymen misread the law, or believe they are authorities because they read something on Slashdot once.)
And if that’s what Mythago meant, then I apologize.
Yes, I did. A term meaning both misandrist and misogynist is “sexist,” btw, and it’s a good way to characterize the Supreme Court decision upholding sex-specific statutory rape laws (which was, as I recall, based entirely on the Protect The Maidens concept).
If we don’t send those messages to our girls as a protective measure, then why do we do it?
Because we don’t look at all those sexist messages about who is and isn’t supposed to want sex and when, and say “Nah…junk this” when it comes to our daughters. If we can’t deal with the notion of adult women enjoying and wanting and pursuing sex as much as adult men, why expect we will become all mellow and egalitarian about our children?
As I’m sure you agree, there are better ways to protect your daughters than happily letting them soak up the message that nice girls don’t really want sex*, and it’s their job to put the brakes on while the boys are jumping on the accelerator with both feet. I also think But She Might Get Pregnant is a pretty thin justification for paternalism.
*Isn’t there a Rodney Dangerfield movie where one of the running gags is that the new bride can’t bring herself to have sex with her husband, because Daddy’s always been so protective of his little girl and when it comes to not having sex, “I think he meant *after* I was married too….”
Maybe a little off the subject, but I’m surprised no one has stated what I feel to be the obvious about young girls or boys…..it’s one thing that women are now starting to get equal time in relationships with large age differences…but regardless of what they say, boys or girls under 18(and in many cases 21) are not emotionally equipped to handle sexual liasions with a much older adult, be it a teacher, family friend, or other…it’s just as wrong for a 23 year old female teacher to have sex with her 13 or 14 year old student(in the news recently) as it is the other way around, but there almost seems to be this slapping on the back kind of mentality or “attaboy” attitude by a lot of guys….it’s even more tolerated by women than the other way around… just because the child is male….when adults are say age 25 or more, it shouldn’t matter whether the man is 20 to 25 years older or visa-versa, who cares…they are adults and after a certain age, we’re are all basically going through the same stuff everyday and the challenge of finding someone you can really connect with is difficult enough without society imposing any more restrictions than need be..right?…Now I realize that every 13 year old boy probably fantasizes about some 30 to 35 year old actress, model or even teacher….when I was 13, I saw a movie called “Bob & Carol & Ted & Alice”, and I fell madly in love with actress Natalie Wood (who was probably about 35 at the time) but whether the person is famous or more accessible,like a teacher, those feelings should remain that…just a fantasy…..
I think that everyone has lost sight of what this is really about. It’s not about taking advantage of a thirteen year old. We are talking about adult relationships, where two consenting adults enjoy each others company. And if there is a problem with that you got a problem.
After all, exploitation and abuse never happen to anyone 18 or over.
My husband is older than I am (not hugely so, but enough that there is something of a ‘generation gap’). It doesn’t matter enough, but anyone who really believes age doesn’t matter at all is either very inexperienced or has not spent much time in a relationship with an age gap.
I didn’t think age mattered all that much, especially if the couple was connected in all the right ways and there did not appear to be an obvious age disparity. It certainly doesn’t affect your love for them, nor your physical response to them. What is affected, is the long term status of the relationship. How realistic is it?
When you are forced to write dates down on paper the cold reality hits you.
Bottom line is that if you are over 18, you are responsible for your *own* decisions. If I date a woman who just turned 18, I am not responsible for the effect it had on her because *she* made her *choice*. If you don’t think that 18 is old enough to make a decision and own the consequences, then I suggest you lobby to raise the age of majority.
Of course people go to college, live on their own there, etc, when they turn 18. Obviously the custom (expectation of behavior) is that someone who is 18 is capable of making choices, or else they would be given that freedom (we wouldn’t send our 15 year old kids away unsupervised).
Again, regardless of ‘emotional control’ or whatever, if you are *over 18* you *own* your own choices. We shouldn’t feel bad about loving any adult. It’s not healthy to feel guilt about loving anyone.
I think you’re confusing your legal obligations with your ethical ones, luther. Legally, you are entitled to date anyone over the age of 18 (give or take a few years, depending on where you live.) Ethically, I would say that we should all always take into account whether the relationship will harm our partner. And people do not all magically transform into emotional grownups on the morning of their 18th birthdays.
My only purpose in bringing up this topic was to get someone to prove me wrong.
If I date a woman who just turned 18, I am not responsible for the effect it had on her because *she* made her *choice*
Are you not responsible for your behavior towards her? You make it sound as though you passively sat there and ‘dating’ was something she did to you.
Well, I read your post and can see where most of what you say applies to many girls. I am 17 years old and a model. While on a promotional modeling job, I met a man in the US National Guard Reserves and I thought that he was just wonderful. I still do. We have kept in touch and I really like this guy. He’s smart and charming, and not interested in sex. He’s kissed me, but never tried to touch me in any way. He’s way more romantic than that.
However, there is another older gentleman that really likes me and I don’t know what to do with him. He’s my dad’s friend and he makes me VERY nervous. He keeps asking when I’ll be 18 all the time too. He’s not the kind of guy that I want to be with.
Younger guys usually drive me nuts. Usually all they care about are cars and sex and other girls. I mean, they might be cute and fun to flirt with, but not mature in any way except on rare occaisions.
So I have a good and bad experience with older men going on right now. I think that it really depends on the people involved. I am very mature and know where I am going to be 5, 10, and 15 years down the road as far as education and jobs and modeling goes. Some girls fall apart when they get any sort of male attention. Some guys need someone they can connect with and sometimes that person is young, sometimes she is not.
I am a 50 yr old man who has an ongoing friendship with a 18 fem. Altho we are of different worlds, both socially and economically we connect very well and offer each other a deep friendship and understanding. I have tried to break this off more times than I can count but she is embedded in my brain and yes heart. I carefully read what olguy said. His comments were very insightful and intelligent, yet he too is muddled as his closing comments stated. I guess I am partly aware of the fact that I may become old news to her and left behind for a
guy closer in age to her.
She has stated she doesnt want to go to grad school 100 miles away cause it will be too far from me. I have always encouraged her to grow, study, give 100% to all she does and not consider me when life decisions need to be made.
I guess I am feeling that I am getting in her way of growth and that she is getting dependent on me for emotional strength. Any thoughts?
I agree with Mythago… “It never ceases to amaze me how mother nature has got everything so wrong. Everything from the age of sexual reproduction through to nasty mind atlering plants. Then again nature did produce human beings, so l suppose that anything that a human being is capable of rationalising is in fact natural.”
Why is it we in western culture hold people in an artificial state of emotional adolescense until they graduate college? If a person at 18 can own anything they want in the USA, vote, and go to war and die for our country, I think they should have the abiltiy to decide who they want to have a relationship with. Maybe the answer is to raise the legal age in our country for marriage from 18 to 25. Of course that would stop younger women from marrying guys their own age who have no life experience or who are looking for a promised sex partner. We are guys, we get married so we dont have to search for sex anymore, thats it. The notions of security, family, and all that are femine concepts in my opinion and perpetuated by men who cant go out and get any. So men get married so they have a promised sex partner.
Yes there maybe some integrity issues with older men dating younger women, but most mature men I believe are honest and caring. They are also happy with themselves and their lives. They, myself included, dont need a woman to complete them. We can pick and choose who we want to have sex with. This I find really pisses off older women because they want us for the same reasons younger women do, and we just arent buying that older model anymore. Had one, wore out, started to need more and more maintenance, and ended up costing alot to get rid of. We want the newer sporty high speed, sleek one.
Just some thoughts from a 40 year old male who enjoys the vibrance, smile and joy of 20 year old women.
My apologies, talking in circles posted the message I quoted.
Wayne
“If I date a woman who just turned 18, I am not responsible for the effect it had on her because *she* made her *choice*”
I shiver at that assertion because I was the 18-year-old who “made the decision” to get involved with the older man who pursued me. His pursuit, however, started when I was 16 and he was 29. He was also the youth adviser at my church where I was golden child/overachiever, i.e., the child no one thought to supervise. I think this is now called “grooming.” Very soon after my 18th birthday — after he’d worked his way into my family, my teenage life and between my high school boyfriend and I — he made his move physically. Sexual manipulation added to emotional manipulation made for four pretty screwed-up years. At 18, maybe I made a bad choice. Or did I? It’s hard to tell when I look back at least three other much younger women who fell into the same trap with the same man in the same church.
Now, I’m not knocking all younger woman/older man relationships. Are some women in them seeking validation? Yeah, but that could be true of any relationship. I’m in one now with a man 18 years older. Granted, I’m 28 and he’s 46. We work together. We play together. Do I like how he tends to nurture me, say, more than someone my own age? Certainly. At the same time, we’ve had a couple of nights of me nursing him through life’s disappointments. Is he getting a kick out of sex with a younger woman? I certainly hope so; although, I think I’m the freaky one. (That might be a generational thing.)
Whether it’s ethical for an older, more experienced man to date a significantly younger woman depends on the man.
Eve, you make an important distinction. 18 and 31 is very different from 28 and 46, especially when a relationship of trust (youth leader/teen) existed. As far as I’m concerned, a youth leader shouldn’t date a former teen in his/her church until at least five years have passed since she left the youth group. On my more conservative days, I think it should be ten.
We are guys, we get married so we dont have to search for sex anymore, thats it.
No, it’s not it, however much your manly image depends on persuading yourself that this is so.
Power balances in young woman/old men relationships can go both ways. It seems to me that the younger woman (legal consenting adult) ends up holding much of the power. If the younger person is truly just starting out they seem to be far more likely to be using the older person, for sex, for attention, for status, etc. In general the older the person the more of themselves they are likely to invest in a romantic relationship. Even if it is a purely sexual relationship I the (much) older man is pursuing that much younger woman it may very well be likely that it is to prove his desirability to himself or his peers.
I really agree with this. I’m 16, and I tend to see the majority of older men (15, 20 years up) as creepy, leering, and generally unsafe. I know that it’s wrong to make this generalization but as far as I’ve experienced it’s the truth. I can feel stares when I walk down the halls from the male teachers in the hall, I once had to change classes because it got to the point where students not even in that class would come up to me telling me they heard the teacher “liked” me and wouldn’t leave me be. I don’t know, I just really wish that there was some standard age a girl had to meet before being seen as a sexual object by older men.
Here’s my two cents worth
It is safe to speculate, most people over 50 had been in a solid? relationship for 30 years or so… you must all know that any long term relationship tends to loose its
passion as the years go by (no exception in my case) Having said that, I met a female friend half my age and we have developed a very ‘interesting’ relationship (friends for now) there’s no doubts she enjoys my company as much as I enjoy hers, the problem here is that I am kind of reluctant to take it past the friendship stage due to uncertainty about the final result.
What I am trying to say is that I couldn’t take NO for an answer (any comments are appreciated)
Not a dirty old man by any means, just a man in need of a compatible partner
In reply to Tasha
‘Feeling stares’ as you described it should make you feel ‘desirable’
like it or nor WE ARE ALL DESIRABLE OBJECTS if we get to talk about sex
so, what’s wrong with you? you should feel really good knowing life had given
you that ’special attractiveness’, it will come the time when you will regreat
having writen what you wrote (when you aged and wrikles would not interest a hungry bear)
Sorry for being so blunt but your posting was due for a harsh reply
You are young, beautiful and no doubts concented… now its the time to shake what you have
babe!!!!!!!!
No… it grosses me out that these men are old enough to be my father, when I’m old and wrinkly I definitely won’t regret not “shaking what I have” for them, sorry if you can’t understand that.
I’m with Tasha; now that I’m in my forties, I really don’t regret not “shaking what I have” for men old enough to be my father, back when I was in my teens. Not all sexual attention is flattering.
Yeah, I don’t exactly look back on my younger years and wished I’d slept with more creepy old guys, either.
Tasha, is there some kind of complaint process at your school?
Thanks, it’s nice to know a few people agree with me. There’s nothing empowering about that situation to me.
I’m not sure if these is, I should look into that. A male teacher was fired this year on charges of sexual harassment and having child pornography on his school computer, so you would think they’d try to crack down a little bit.
There are many things I may regret on my deathbed, but not shagging and/or shaking my ass at a bunch of old geezers will not be among them, and I’m pretty sure it won’t be among Tasha’s either.
Tasha - unfortunately the leering is probably something you’re going to have to live with for now, but remember that if anyone actually crosses the line into actually saying something sexual to you or touching you then you can and indeed should complain. It might not be a bad idea to talk to your parents about this too - they might be able to provide some more specific strategies on how to deal with individual situations and/or people.
And Tasha, as a man and a teacher who has devoted himself to creating “safe space” for women and girls (and men and boys) around him, my heart aches for you.
I thought about deleting Johnny’s comment, but it seems that others have done a fairly good job of shooting him down.
I think I’m falling in love with an older man…I’m 26, he’s 47…..we have a great friendship, and both want to proceed further, but we are taking it slow to be sure that we are compatible before anything sexual starts. The guy is amazing, and everything I would want in a husband and a father for my children.He has a lot of baggage, kids from other marriages, etc…..I just don’t know if I should proceed…any suggestions?
Denise, Really think about things before proceeding. Can you deal with the baggage? Can you handle his other wives being a permanent fixture in your lives regarding his other kids? Is he possessive as far as being threatened if you want to go out with your younger friends? Would he be comfortable around your friends? Family? I have had 2 may-december relationships. One had every disaster you could think of. I was in college, he was 47. It lasted four years. I missed out on a lot of things in college because I wanted to be with him, or vice versa, but he wasn’t comfortable around my friends and the whole college scene. Think about any sacrifices you might be giving up that you might have with a younger man, or a man with less baggage. I am in love with a man now who is 30 years my senior. There is so much baggage that I’m just not sure what I should do, either. But these are the questions I have been asking myself. My biggest fear, fior one is that I know my family will no accept it, nor will his. There are three kids invoved from a previous wife who is a nut. She has tried a lot to make our situation as difficult as possible as she does not approve, either. It has been difficult, and we separated ourselves for a year to “Think” about things. He recently came in contact with me again- I still love him. I always will. But that doesn’t mean we will be happy, nor does it mean you will be happy if you love this guy. Weigh everything, and decide if it is all worth it. Also- is it worth the possibility of being left to start again later in your life when he passes away so much earlier than yourself? These are the only ways that you can begin to anticipate whether it’s right. There is a younger man- 8 years my senior, who loves me dearly. I can’t say that I have affections for him (no affair), but I have been holding myself back because of this other relationship. Figure out what is right for you, I am doing the same. Good luck to both of us!
Denise, Really think about things before proceeding. Can you deal with the baggage? Can you handle his other wives being a permanent fixture in your lives regarding his other kids? Is he possessive as far as being threatened if you want to go out with your younger friends? Would he be comfortable around your friends? Family? I have had 2 may-december relationships. One had every disaster you could think of. I was in college, he was 47. It lasted four years. I missed out on a lot of things in college because I wanted to be with him, or vice versa, but he wasn’t comfortable around my friends and the whole college scene. Think about any sacrifices you might be giving up that you might have with a younger man, or a man with less baggage. I am in love with a man now who is 30 years my senior. There is so much baggage that I’m just not sure what I should do, either. But these are the questions I have been asking myself. My biggest fear, fior one is that I know my family will no accept it, nor will his. There are three kids invoved from a previous wife who is a nut. She has tried a lot to make our situation as difficult as possible as she does not approve, either. It has been difficult, and we separated ourselves for a year to “Think” about things. He recently came in contact with me again- I still love him. I always will. But that doesn’t mean we will be happy, nor does it mean you will be happy if you love this guy. Weigh everything, and decide if it is all worth it. Also- is it worth the possibility of being left to start again later in your life when he passes away so much earlier than yourself? These are the only ways that you can begin to anticipate whether it’s right. There is a younger man- 8 years my senior, who loves me dearly. I can’t say that I have affections for him (no affair), but I have been holding myself back because of this other relationship. Figure out what is right for you, I am doing the same. Good luck to both of us!
That was supposed to be- I can’t say that I don’t have affections for him (I’m not having an affair with the man who resurfaced in my life after I started seeing the younger). The younger, to be more up to date, has aked me to marry him. What to do….?
hi, this is windy. i just wondering does american illeagel that older woman date with teenager boys. because he is 13 half year old so he like me very much. he looking for older as i do. i just scare that i cant have boyfriend with 13 years old but i dont know sure because i dont want to get in trouble. i am not touch or something to him nothing but i feeling for him and he feeling me for same thing that we are in love. please help me.
Yes, it’s highly illegal, in the US, for an older woman to do anything sexual with a 13 year old boy. It can result in years of jail time.
I am 19 years old and my boyfriend that I have been dating for the past 5 months is 28. We have also been living together for the past 4 months. I’ve been reading the posts about the younger woman just being an object of lust or whatever you want to call it to older men, but I feel somewhat the opposite when I am with my boyfriend. When we first started dating we had sex at least twice a day but now I’m lucky if I get it twice a week! At work or out in public I get hit on by other men so I must be somewhat attractive. Is it wrong of me to desire being intimate with him on a daily basis? And why does he not respond? All my other male co-workers would love to be with a woman who wanted to do it all day, everyday! Does anyone have any suggestions?
He may just have a lower sex drive than you. It’s normal to desire being intimate with him on a daily basis, yes, and it’s also normal for him to only want it twice a week (and doesn’t mean he finds you unattractive). Both of these levels of desire are well within the normal range. Lots of people with a relatively lower sex drive are still higher sex drive at the very beginning of a relationship, so the twice a day at the beginning tailing down to twice a week after several months isn’t unusual either.
I’m not sure whether there’s a way to get him to want sex with you daily. Not because he’s 28, but because some people just don’t. One thing I’ve heard, which I suppose may work for people whose disparity isn’t too large, is that you try to have sex, as far as possible, at the frequency favored by the higher sex drive person, but in the manner (and time of day, etc.) favored by the lower sex drive person.
Latin woman seem to love older men. I have had a crush on a younger woman(21) for the last few years and it was only recently that her mother (who is the same age as myself) told me that her daughter felt the same way about me. Her family is very supportive and not pessimistic at all. Although there is a significant difference in age (26 to the day) we have started to befriend each other more and more and realize that we share a lot of common wishes and desires. she views me as a responsible, mature male with a very caring attitude towards life and I see her as a mature responsible young lady that clearly can see her future goals without concern over her soulmates age (whether its me or not) I am pusuing this relationship and the feelings that have been shared by both of us are priceless. its almost too good to be true!
I prefer older men…and its not due to any abuse or neglect. It only has to do with my intelligence, my parents raised me to be smart,prepared and independent…there has never been a man my age that could hold a conversation with me, let alone treat me better or just as good as daddy does.why should i settle for less than excellance? i am 24 years old dating a man 48 which is not that bad, he’s established, incredibly smart, sexy and he ’s a gentleman. Young men these days think its cool to be rude, and hateful towards women treating them only as vessels for their scum. andi have tried dating men my age its never worked, even at the age of 15. So when i turned 16 i found a guy 23…he treated me like a queen and i’ve never been back to the youngsters.
I’m not going to display my age, but i went on a vacation and met a older guy. I had been with other older men but he was 18yrs older. To me age is just a number he was really nice and affectionate and looked like he was 10 yrs younger than he really was. I had a really good time with him and never experienced sexual intercourse. My parents showed me a lot of attention when i was younger so i also disagree with the comment of wanting a father figure or someone to help guide you. I am head-strong and don’t need a guy to lead me in the right direction. Therefore this blog, if you will, has helped me make a decision about my issue. For any other women wanting advice I think if you are truely in love with the older guy you are seeing, and you feel having sex will show your affection towards him, go for it.
As a 20 year old being in a year and a half relationship with a guy 25 years older than me, I find the idea of a fling hard to believe. My boyfriend and I have a deep level of understanding between each other and are completely compatable. I had dated older men in the past and find that their sense of maturity is more along mine. Don’t get me wrong– there are some 30-40 year olds that are more immature or just as immature as guys in their twenties. I resent the fact, though, that people have said something of the sorts of “here is your ticket for your daughter.” What I find interesting is that two “white” people with an age difference is generally thought of as oh– that is father daughter. But a 60 year old man with a 20 year old asian girlfriend, is definitely a girlfriend and not father daughter.
i think older men and younger women make wonderful matches at times it depends on the people and chemistry
I’ve read some very thought provoking comments here. I really appreciate everyone’s point of view. I think we need to keep in mind that each person’s point of view comes from his or her own experience. My experience- I’m a 35-year-old male. I was married to a female who was 2 years older than I. We met when I was 18 (btw- I was the popular guy through all of my schooling and could pretty much go out with whom ever I wanted) and were together until I was 28. We were married for the last 3 years of this relationship. This relationship was terrible. I was too young and stupid to stand up for myself and she walked all over me. She either needed to get it together or be with a guy who wasn’t going to take it (I’m not sure which). I took a full year off from dating. I then went out with a female who was 4 years younger then me. She was better in some ways than my wife in terms of responsibility but she had some serious emotional problems- i.e. she had no heart. There was a handful (and they were a real handful) of females in-between. Now, and for the last 3 1/2 years, I’m very happy to say that I’m in the first good relationship of my life. She is 14 years younger than I. We met when she was 17 and when she turned 18 she asked me out. I was totally single at the time but I did have to think about it for a minute (literally a minute). What can I say- our relationship is brilliant in every way. Mutual loving, patience, warmth, supportiveness, commitment, and communication (seriously- if you saw us together you’d think she was 26 and I was 28). What I’ve learned– Age means nothing. Some people are born to be good in relationships (meaning it comes naturally) and others are a major pain in the ass- sometimes for their whole lives. Women who are over 35 and are still single- there’s a REASON for this-sorry to say it but it’s true. The really great women are snatched up by the time they’re 26 and they are never let go. Some of my friends have married women who are in their mid 30s- my god, I can hardly stomach these women- the reason they have found husbands at all is because the men they found are somewhat weak and aimless and they need the women for direction (so god bless em!). Men under the age of 28 (more like 32) don’t have much of a clue however women as young as 18 can have it very well together- responsible, directed, supportive, hard-working, communicative, sweet, humorous, adventurous, and yes- beautiful. I always wondered why this was, this development gap. A friend of mine ( a woman my age!) told me this- The traits that are truly female oriented- the ones I just mentioned- can start to develop when a girl is 12 or 13 (not that anyone should be dating them!!!) but, the traits that are truly male (mature male, not just wildly aggressive, competitive, overly sexual, immature male)- protective, knowledgeable, resourceful, provider, calm, focused, reliable- these don’t really take shape until, at the very earliest, 28 or so. So that’s it.
Jim,
I’m glad you found a good partner. I’ve seen relationships with a great age gap work very well, and others that do not. I’ve seen older men/younger women relationships (or vice-versa) that were genuine relationships and many that were based on questionable (sometimes voiced and blatant) motives (sugar mommy/daddy, trophy accessory, etc).
It’s one thing to speak of your experience and another to make blatant commentary on men or women over a certain age. Many women have put off relationships into their mid-30’s because they wanted to focus on their career. Some fields (like medicine and law) require a lot of time and energy that many men and women put off relationships to focus on them. Many women finally have time for a relationship in their mid 30’s to find unfair attitudes permeate such as yours- while their male counterparts are now more eligible and wanted than ever.
Many people in their mid-30’s, both men and women, have had some bitter relationship experiences (failed marriages, etc). It’s not an age thing- it’s often a bad experience thing. Regardless of gender, many people are bitter after a bad experience. That’s life.
I’m sad to hear you have issues with women, and you’ve found happiness with someone. I wish you the best of luck. However, men and women are individuals- please look at them as such, and don’t make sweeping generalizations about people based simply on your own experience. I’m sure you’re happy that your partner sees you as a person- not an age. I’m sure you are glad your partner doesn’t have the “men over 30 are bitter a-holes” that many women DO also have from bad experiences with men in their 30’s, and gave you a chance.
The bottom line is that often, stereotypes also hurt the person that believes in them because you lose out on meeting wonderful people due to assumptions and never giving them the chance to be an individual. I hope this isn’t the case for you.
Catty, i totally appreciate what you are saying. There are a lot of generalities in what i wrote but it seemed like i was going on too long so i could not be more specific. Of course there are exceptions for all of the things i said. There are some amazing women who have spent their 20’s building a great career and then have turned their sights toward a relationship. If i were go out with someone my age it would be someone from this group. i have a friend (a female i went to High School with) who just ended a 10 year (or so) relationship with a man (they were not married) with whom she bought a house and everything. Her career is well established. She’s a great woman! Perhaps my generalities are focused on single thirthsomething women who are unique to Los Angeles (but I doubt it)- but there are sooo many of them! They have no strong career that they have established and no epic relationship (marriage or otherwise) that didn’t work out. They have some aimless job and a very, very long list of guys they’ve “gone out with”. There is no mystery as to why these women have never been married. Around these parts these women are the majority (of single women in their thirties). I know that it happens but it’s rare that a truly amazing woman (who has all or most of the qualities i mentioned in my last entry) gets well into her thirties without being taken- i don’t mean “taken” in a chauvinistic cave-man kind of way…let’s face it- men ask women out and men ask women to marry them.
Also- there are exceptions for the generalities i made about younger men. But the majority are as i outlined. I stand by the rest of the things i said. We can be PC all we want and say, ” That isn’t ALWAYS the case”, but sometimes we need to look at the vast majority and make a call.
One thing I am curious about is what over 30 women are doing to meet men. Are they taking the initiative and going to singles events and asking out men?
Anyone care to share experiences?
Oh my … to be perfectly frank, I think this is complete drivel. Just like any other relationship, there are good examples and bad examples. Ironically, one of the main problems with generation gap relationships like this (regardless of which sex is the older) is the perceived prejudice and total B.S. the couple has to go through from people who are as misguided as you.
There is WAY too much emphasis put on age. I was far more mature at age 25 than I am now (35). The entire human race is under this illusion that everything is linear … that we are constantly improving ourselves, becoming more mature … that indead the human race is bettering itself with each generation. By no valid standard can you get me to admit we are any better off than the American Indians that lived here before us, and that we damn near exterminated. Sure, you can show me your measuring stick … I’ll just break it. I think it’s garbage.
You WAY underestimate the intelligence and maturity of “young” women, and by doing so do them a great disservice. You depict them as being completely vulnerable, incompetent, emotional fragile to the extreme, and easily manipulated.
I’d like you to sit down with my 20 year old girlfriend (I’m 35), and explain all this to her. She would no doubt make a fool of you. Ha !
A 20-ish woman who dates older men tells me that, “Age is just a number.”
HUGO: WHEN YOU TRY TO POST A COMMENT, IT FIRST TAKES YOU TO THE PREVIEW — IS THIS INTENTIONAL? YOU WANT ALL COMMENTS PREVIEWED FIRST?
I stumbled upon this post a couple months back when I was still dating my boyfriend who is 20 years older than me. I’m 19 btw. I agree with Hugo but as this chat thread shows, there are alot of us, young, intelligent, independent, empowered women who feel we don’t have much choice in dating men who are our age. As a couple women here have pointed out already, its really difficult to find someone on the same intellectual, emotional and spiritual as you are. We have no choice but to look towards older men (albeit there ARE older men who behave like they’re boys) to fulfill those needs. Yes I still do discourage alot of my friends from dating older men, but very matter of fact, they are those young women that Hugo are referring to. They don’t know what they want and are stunned by the attention they get. I do get very afraid when they call me with their problems adn all i wan tto do is tell these men to get away from my friends. Yes I am hypocritical, but I am only so because I don’t fel insecure about my relationships with older men. THey don’t scare me, and to gain my attention, they have to respect me for who I am. Please don’t construe this as being obnoxious, but I’ve bene getting alot of male attention since I was rather young. Initialy I was very afraid and stunned, but I soon realised and came to terms with my sexuality. Alot of men proposition me but I turn them down with some witty banter to make it sounds less like a rejection. I’m aware of who I am, and my sexuality.
Back to the post. I recently broke up with my boyfriend of one year. Fact is, he cheated on me and regretting big time. I was very hurt but, heck i’m 19 he’s 39. Its not difficult to see who’ll get back up faster. Plus the fact that I overlooked his age, his looks and his *ahem not being so well endowed. So i came back to this post to see if my perspective of this whole issue has changed. …not really. I still agree with Hugo that his view applies to most women. but there are a new breed of women who are taking their sexuality into their own hands. I have never felt victimised or taken advantage of. In fact, many men always remark that they feel afraid that they’re being taken advantage of by me because I always seem so confident while they’re shaking inside when i flirt with them.
Don’t generalise relationships. Relationships, even ones wiht big age gaps, are terribly complex and very unique. Don’t judge us based on your perception as insecure and weak women.
6 months into my relationship, my boyfriend remarked that he had never once wished i was older in any way. And i admitted to him that i probbaly wouldnt have given him a second glance if he was 20 years younger. Relationships ARE complex. Don’t be too quick to impose your standards on us.
Oh.. i forgot to mention. the one thing that i did spark something in me when i came back to this post, is that i underestimated the no. of people who believe that age is overrated. I think i stumbled upong this post when it was posted very early on there were alot of criticisms and people agreeing with hugo. and i do have something in common with Kate. I did stumble upon this when i googled ‘older men younger women’ to see what would turn up. I don’t read many blogs but I am really impressed with the flow of arguments here. :) good job. I totally agree with e-head (2 posts before me) that we’re not all moving on a linear scale. I’ve been very fortunate to go through some experiences that made me more mature very quickly (and luckily didn’t break me). I jumped the gun.
e-head: hope your relationship works out. I on the other hand would love to smack my exboyfriend for being such a philandering idiot. :) oh well.
Saffron, I have tried hard to be respectful to those who have found such relationships fulfilling and non-exploitative. My real issue, however, is not with the young women who choose older men as lovers, but with older men who chronically eroticize much younger women while being dismissive of their own female peers. That’s the real problem, as far as I’m concerned.
That’s becasue their own female peers have a massive amount of baggage (way more often than not) and a very big, very urgent agenda (way more often than not)- i.e.- marriage and kids. Too often our female peers are carrying the (excuse my french) fuck ups of a long list of guys. That is too bad (truely). But if a guy has gotten it together in his life, knows how to treat his woman, and wouldn’t cheat on her if he had a gun to his head, wouldn’t he want someone emotionally fresher? With verve and enthusiasm? Who’s truly excited to be with her man on every level? I don’t want to have kids for at least 10 years so even if i was single i wouldn’t even consider women my age. I’m 35 my GF is 21. So many of my friends my age have receintly married women their own age and most of them are feeling very rushed into having kids- and they’re stressed as hell about that (not that it’s not stressful at any time in life). But that’s just me….
Takes Time, with all respect, you make my point for me. Men in their thirties who “aren’t ready” for marriage and children is a decidedly new historical phenomenon (call it the “perpetual male adolescent”). Men can afford to say “I can wait until I’m older” for kids, something that mid-thirties women can’t do.
Older men choosing to date younger women in this case is an act of hostility, I think, against more mature women and genuine biological realities!
I, by no means, am an adolescent. I’m extremely responsible, down to earth, dedicated, and accomplished. I’ve had people give me the rap about- “you’re doing it wrong!”. “Now is the time when you’re supposed to settle down, etc.” Well life expectancy is quite a bit higher that it was even 50 years ago, which is the time frame your perspective seems to be from. I don’t date my girfriend in an act of hostility toward older women. i won’t marry her and have kids (in 10 years) together and have a happy life in an act of hostility toward older women either. People should have kids by the time they’re 35? Yes- 50 years ago when they lived to be 60.
Hugo—
I am the girlfriend of TakesTime, and it has been quite entertaining and infuriating at the same time reading all these posts. First and foremost, I would not, for a second think my boyfriend is in a “perpetual male adolescent mode”, quite the contrary—He is one of the few people in this world I truly respect—musically, spitirually, and emotionally. And as for older men “choosing to date younger women as an act of hostility”…98% of all women that I have met/been introduced to over the age of 30 HAVE been the hostile ones. They assume that I am weak, asinine, and not deserving of my mate—who I’m sure they wish they were dating. Yes, I AM 21 years old, Yes, I AM going to wear clothes that show off my figure, but also…I have had the direction to become an accomplished classical pianist, and I have enough couth to NOT blatantly judge people, and make curt ageist comments. Oh, how I love to be judged by single, mid-thirties cocktail waitresses.
Most of my female friends (that are my age) have gone through the painful experience of being cheated on–repeatedly, by their A.D.D., immature, hyperactive boyfriends. (The boyfriends are my age as well) Upon speaking with them, I constantly come across their desire to have relationships with guys that are more mature, steadfast, caring, established, accomplished, patient, and understanding—-not many 20 year old guys fit this description.
What it comes down to truly is– a developed, warm person will attract a wonderful mate, at any age!— and a closed-minded, fearful person will forever stay single. It’s all up to the person in the end.
As far as age gaps go I understand the time tested formula is
y = x/2 + 7
where x=man’s age, y=women’s age. It’s easy to understand why younger women so often like older men. Since marriage is not even on a man’s radar screen until he is hits 30 (considering my college educated peers/friends), a women who wants to get married should not consider men younger than this age, generally speaking. Myself I’m 42 but was 28 when I married my wife of 20 - close to the optimum!
Hugo, I’m really shocked by the opinion you voice above.
People should decide what lifestyle choices are right for them. I don’t think you should denegrate people who don’t want marriage or children at a particular stage of their lives. It seems strange that a feminist - who I’d think would be suspicious of society forcing people being into gender roles - should think like that. It would be unacceptable for anyone here to make a similar complaint about the lifestyles of unmarried women, or childless women, or gay people. Aren’t men in their thirties entitled to the same respect?
Steve, that’s the old Mosaic formula — whether it’s “time-tested” or not is debatable.
Nik, I see no reason to include “perpetual adolescents” in the canon of minority groups that deserve understanding and protection.
Hugo;
Does your condemnation of “perpetual adolescents” extend to women in their 30s who refuse to get hitched and pregnant?
Either way you answer this, I think you’ll have trouble being consistent with feminism. I’ve come to respect you an awful lot reading this blog, but I really have difficulty seeing any justification for your comments.
But if a guy has gotten it together in his life, knows how to treat his woman, and wouldn’t cheat on her if he had a gun to his head, wouldn’t he want someone emotionally fresher?
Has it ever occurred to you to wonder why someone so fresh enjoys the company of one so stale?
Of course, metronomekiller is a bundle of paranoia and resentment towards other women, so maybe “freshness” is not the best descriptor, is it? That explains that. How do you deal with the tension between her and your female friends of your own age? I’m sure you do have some, right? Or are they the lucky 2% she can tolerate?
Since you’re older and more mature, maybe you could explain to her that every time a woman is rude to her or dislikes her (I’m sure it’s never the other way around) it’s not, in point of fact, because they wish they were dating you. I wonder why you haven’t tried to explain that to her already.
Some of my friends have married women who are in their mid 30s- my god, I can hardly stomach these women
Psst! Come here. No, closer. I want to tell you a secret.
Are you ready?
Ok.
They don’t like you either.
And Hugo, seriously. Adult women are not suffering from the lack of TakesTime’s tender attentions. They don’t want them. They don’t want him. You are not doing grown women any favors by encouraging people like this to turn their creepiness towards women in their thirties.
98% of all women that I have met/been introduced to over the age of 30 HAVE been the hostile ones. They assume that I am weak, asinine, and not deserving of my mate
How do all these hostile women even know you have a boyfriend, or how old he is??? You just met them, right?
Huh.
Well, maybe you should try talking to other women without your boyfriend there. I’m sure you can handle it if you try. For extra-good results, try talking to them about something other than your boyfriend. Sort of a combination of treating them like human beings and acting like one, you know?
Perpetual adolescents? I am new to reading your blog but I am surprised and disappointed that you resort to name calling and labeling people in such a sterotypical way.
You label “Men in their thirties who “aren’t ready” for marriage and children ” as perpetual adolescents???
(Disclosure: personally, I have two children and have usually dated women my age or older.)
I do not understand why you feel the need to put down others in order to “protect” (your word) others. It strikes me as inappropriate and not very intellectually consistent.
Does your condemnation of “perpetual adolescents” extend to women in their 30s who refuse to get hitched and pregnant?
Oh, sure — because we all know that a woman ain’t a woman until a man has claimed her and parked his sperm in her.
Will, TakesTime has said many more insulting, offensive, and just plain silly things about women of all ages than Hugo has said about men like him. Aren’t you at least as bothered by that?
(If you missed it, here’s a tasty sample: The traits that are truly female oriented- the ones I just mentioned- can start to develop when a girl is 12 or 13 (not that anyone should be dating them!!!) but, the traits that are truly male (mature male, not just wildly aggressive, competitive, overly sexual, immature male)- protective, knowledgeable, resourceful, provider, calm, focused, reliable- these don’t really take shape until, at the very earliest, 28 or so.)
As you can see, this isn’t just an aversion to women his own age, it’s an all-encompassing sexist double standard. “Perpetual adolescent” is missing the point, when dealing with made-up garbage about men and women like this - the only reason I don’t describe it as misogynist is that he’s just as clueless about other men. But Hugo’s not being too hard on him. Quite the contrary.
A “perpetual adolescent” isn’t someone who simply isn’t married or settled in their 30s, it’s someone who hasn’t faced up to whether they want to do that and/or hangs out with far younger people because the people his or her own age are too mature and “boring.”
Remember, deciding not to marry/settle down at all or deciding that one will only do so if one finds the right relationship are adult decisions. If for no other reason than that they have been considered and made, not avoided.
Sophonisba:
I didnt really read much of TakesTime. Quite frankly, my expectations of him are probably not as high as Hugo. I also do not think that his comments are an excuse for Hugo. If this is an important topic, then it deserves to be treated intellectually consistantly.
I do not see stereotypes and insults as helpful or productive.
“Does your condemnation of ‘perpetual adolescents’ extend to women in their 30s who refuse to get hitched and pregnant?”
“Oh, sure — because we all know that a woman ain’t a woman until a man has claimed her and parked his sperm in her.”
It’s rather amazing that you think that’s what was suggested.
bmmg39
Will,
That’s reasonable. I take offense at some of Hugo’s comments myself (for instance, not dating somebody is not ever an “act of hostility” against them, whether you’re bigoted against the class to which they belong or not.)
My own problem with the “perpetual adolescent” slur is not that it is insulting, but that it is not accurate; in particular, it plays right into TakesTime’s own put-downs of younger men (the necessary flip side of his put-downs of older women.) But normal adolescents and young men don’t talk about women the way he does; his kind of sexism isn’t characteristic of teenagers.
There are exceptions for every situation. I know that. One thing i never meant to do was make it look like i was insulting young men. I’m just stating that that’s the way they are. I was. There’s nothing wrong with that. It’s a part of life. The caterpillar isn’t stupid (i think i used this word earlier- i should have used: ignorant) and worthless because it is not yet a butterfly. Neither stage in life is better- they’re just different. I made 4 different entries in this blog- go back and read what i wrote. It was a 35 year old woman who told me this-
(If you missed it, here’s a tasty sample: The traits that are truly female oriented- the ones I just mentioned- can start to develop when a girl is 12 or 13 (not that anyone should be dating them!!!) but, the traits that are truly male (mature male, not just wildly aggressive, competitive, overly sexual, immature male)- protective, knowledgeable, resourceful, provider, calm, focused, reliable- these don’t really take shape until, at the very earliest, 28 or so.)
yes, sophonisba, that was HER tasty sample. It seemed to make some sense. i bet it makes sense to a lot of people.
I’ll say for the 10th time- there are always exceptions to every situation- but, if anyone doesn’t think that men and women are EXTREMELY different creatures (hence the “female and male oriented characteristics” Especially at different ages.) then they are so stupid (or at the very least- ignorant) i’m amazed they can type.
Also- read what i wrote about women my own age (dating them). I’m not going to re-iterate.
“steve” wrote- “a women who wants to get married should not consider men younger than this age (under 30), generally speaking” What the hell is he talking about?? He’s talking about the very points i outlined. What i was adding was- there are many women in their twenties who would be ideal mates/wives. Marriage very well might be “on the radar” for them. The women for whom marriage was not an option in their twenties might have embarked on a great career and may look to get married later on. It’s all good. But for the women in their mid-thirties that have accomplished nothing but notches on the headboard, yet complain that there are “no good men around”- it’s no mystery why you’re single, honey. Oh yeah- all the “good men”?- they’re dating your little sister.
Men can be bitter, sure. I agree. And stale as well. But older women carry their baggage a different way than men and their ability to discard said baggage (or inability) is totally different. Nothing like the love and dedication of a brilliant, warm, younger woman to make a mid-thirties guy drop his baggage…..
Single mid-thirties women looking for dedicated, fulfilling, relationships with guys in their early twenties? Really? Good luck.
To respond for my girlfriend: To clarify- Older women are much more hostile to her when i’m with her. Less so when she’s by herself. Here’s a unique situation because she’s extremely attractive (women aren’t that thrilled when other women look this good). The main thing is that when she’s with me these women ARE hostile- 90% of the time. To the credit of these women- when they get to talking to my GF and see how brilliant and accomplished she is, they drop the crap. I understand that they might think that she’s a beautiful, brainless, malleable, trophy to drag around- she’s not. She’s generally much smarter than they are.
the fact that you are so hypersensitive to the sexual awareness of young women means one of two things: either you’re repressing some serious urges of your own to sexualize them (which can’t do wonders for your career or impending marriage), or someone close to you (maybe a sister or your wife) got diddled by daddy or an uncle when they were children and your inability to deal with it has you taking it out on the rest of the world by making sweeping generalizations and harbouring unfair biases. i apologize for the run-on sentence, but you’re a community college teacher so you likely didn’t notice. your need for acceptance is damaging. let it go.
oh, and your fiancee is cheating on you. again. think about it: she got that flu from somewhere.
have a nice day.
Just a couple more thoughts on this topic.
Is it ok for me to make a stereotype about women in their 30’s and early 40’s and rave about how great they are to date, but not to say the same thing about women in their twenties?
Can a woman in her twenties not be more mature and intelligent than a woman in her thirties and forties?
I am 38. I’ve dated women from 25 to 45. I do not know that I can generalize and say that one is more mature than the other. It would be ridiculous to call me a perv for dating the 25 year old simply because of the age difference.
if anyone doesn’t think that men and women are EXTREMELY different creatures
You know, if you were looking for a place where everyone thinks this, you’re at the wrong blog :-). Way the wrong blog.
I am 38. I’ve dated women from 25 to 45. I do not know that I can generalize and say that one is more mature than the other. It would be ridiculous to call me a perv for dating the 25 year old simply because of the age difference.
See, this I can totally agree with. And I’ve been a 25 year old who was interested in a 37 year old, and I don’t think that says bad things about me in any way. What makes me look suspiciously on some older/younger relationships is when the people involved can’t seem to defend their relationship without saying (on the one side) older women are bitter and jaded and only young women are fresh enough for me or (on the other side) young men are immature and I am so much more special and mature than my peers.
“Oh, sure — because we all know that a woman ain’t a woman until a man has claimed her and parked his sperm in her.”
It’s rather amazing that you think that’s what was suggested.
Amazing? Why? I’ve been told all my life, explicitly and implicitly, that I won’t be a Real Woman until I’m married and a mother. That a woman’s highest and best purpose is to be a mother and raise the next generation.
And that idea is implicit in the statement that women in their 30s who “refuse” to “get hitched and get pregnant” are perpetual adolescents — whereas the label as applied to men was reserved for those who put off making such decisions.
Like I said, deciding not to do something is an adult choice. Refusing to even make a decision and putting it off and putting it off is not.
zuzu:
I commend you on your decision. Too few people have the spine to stand up for not having children.
I agree that there is overwhelming unnecessary pressure to have children. People should decide for themselves if they can and should have children.
Hugo’s condemnation was aimed at at (hetrosexual) men who “aren’t ready” for kids and marriage in their 30s. For what it’s worth Hugo was responding to TT who stated bluntly that he wants to delay having kids for 10 years, and that some of his friends were being rushed into it. A distinction between those who put off making a decision and those who make a decision is artificial and has just been introduced.
Again, I think Hugo’s comment presupposes some rather unreconstructed views regarding male gender roles, and standards he’s willing to apply to some people but not to others.
No, nik. Hugo was responding to TakesTime’s condemnation of women in their 30s as undesirable, bitter and baggage-toting because their biological clocks were ticking:
That’s becasue their own female peers have a massive amount of baggage (way more often than not) and a very big, very urgent agenda (way more often than not)- i.e.- marriage and kids. Too often our female peers are carrying the (excuse my french) fuck ups of a long list of guys. That is too bad (truely). But if a guy has gotten it together in his life, knows how to treat his woman, and wouldn’t cheat on her if he had a gun to his head, wouldn’t he want someone emotionally fresher? With verve and enthusiasm? Who’s truly excited to be with her man on every level? I don’t want to have kids for at least 10 years so even if i was single i wouldn’t even consider women my age. I’m 35 my GF is 21. So many of my friends my age have receintly married women their own age and most of them are feeling very rushed into having kids- and they’re stressed as hell about that (not that it’s not stressful at any time in life). But that’s just me….
Hugo then remarked that the phenomenon of men saying they “weren’t ready” for marriage and kids like their peers was a relatively new phenomenon:
Takes Time, with all respect, you make my point for me. Men in their thirties who “aren’t ready” for marriage and children is a decidedly new historical phenomenon (call it the “perpetual male adolescent”). Men can afford to say “I can wait until I’m older” for kids, something that mid-thirties women can’t do.
Older men choosing to date younger women in this case is an act of hostility, I think, against more mature women and genuine biological realities!
Instead of saying that he didn’t want kids or to get married, or that he wanted to but wanted to wait until some future event, such as getting a degree/getting tenure/making partner/paying off the house/becoming financially stable, TT slammed women in their 30s for being desperate and babylustful and therefore unattractive to him. He could have done any of those things without remarking on the “freshness” of women in their 30s and their pressuring of his friends into having kids.
As it is, even though he claimed that he didn’t want to have kids for 10 years, his reasoning was not that of an adult, but of an adolescent who has not yet gotten the idea that he makes his own choices and is not forced into anything by desperate women past their sell-by date.
Thank you, zuzu, for an eloquent and effective defense of exactly the point I was making.
This isn’t about TT.
If I felt Hugo was just correcting TT by saying that women in their 30s aren’t emotionally damaged and crazed by babylust I wouldn’t have a problem. However he made a rather sweeping statement about how men in their thirties who aren’t ready for marriage were perpetual male adolescents and how this was an act of hostility towards older women.
Hugo’s normally unfailingly polite, so his comment rather surprised me. I think men are perfectly entitled to choose to have kids or get married whenever they want. Saying otherwise seems to me to presume a rather fixed idea of male gender roles. I think what Hugo said was objectionable.
I think men are perfectly entitled to choose to have kids or get married whenever they want.
Of course they are. But justifying your decision to delay marriage and kids by griping about the staleness of women your own age is immature and adolescent.
And since Hugo was responding to a post made by someone who was doing just that, his comment needs to be read in that context.
“if anyone doesn’t think that men and women are EXTREMELY different creatures”…..
“You know, if you were looking for a place where everyone thinks this, you’re at the wrong blog :-). Way the wrong blog.”
you know, zuzu- I may have the wrong blog but you have the wrong planet. Good luck with that.
Women (at any age) make a big mistake when then think that a man is as complex as they (women) are. On the other hand- Men (of any age) make a big mistake when they think that women are as simple as they (men) are.
If a guy walks into a room and he’s with a very attractive woman- he’s more attractive to the women present. It’s the opposite with men- a woman is attractive or she’s not. Doesn’t matter about the guy she’s with. In fact- that fact that she’s with a guy, at all, kills it.
If you tell a woman you have a guy you want her to meet she’ll say- what does he do?
If you tell a guy you have a woman you want him to meet he’ll say- what does she look like?
Sure, a woman might ask how a guy looks as well. But can you imagine a guy saying- what does she do? As the first thing he says? Yeah right- he’ll say- “what does she look like? Seriously, is she pretty? Really? How old is she? Is she nice? Where does she live? Hmmm, how do you know her (if it’s a guy trying to set them up)? Did YOU go out with her? Why not? Is she smart? What does she do?” It’s 11th on the list. I can’t imagine a woman asking, “What does he do?” as her 11th question.
I’m only going off on these examples to illustrate my point about females developing “female qualities” at an earlier age than men developing “male qualities” (how can you be a provider when someone is providing for you?). And finally getting back to the main point- older men and younger women. It works.
If a guy is ready to get married and have babies, a woman in their thirties (or forties I suppose. maybe early forties) is a great way to go. If a guy is ready to get married and have babies, a woman in her twenties is also a great way to go. If a woman is ready to get married and have babies a man in his thirties or forties or fifties is a great way to go. If a woman is ready to get married and have babies a man in his twenties is not a good way to go.
Women in their thirties have to understand that women in their twenties are very interested in thirty-something (or forty-something) men. I don’t think women in their twenties care that women in their thirties aren’t interested in twenty-something men, because a lot of them (20-something women) aren’t interested either.
As far as having babies-
Having a baby is not a miracle. What that person (perhaps with the help of the parents) does with their life can be the miracle. I’m sure Jeffrey Dahmer was a cute baby, perhaps Mozart wasn’t.
you know, zuzu- I may have the wrong blog but you have the wrong planet. Good luck with that.
And you have the wrong woman. You’re responding to zuzu, but quoting me.
If a guy walks into a room and he’s with a very attractive woman- he’s more attractive to the women present. It’s the opposite with men- a woman is attractive or she’s not. Doesn’t matter about the guy she’s with. In fact- that fact that she’s with a guy, at all, kills it.
You see, that’s exactly how I see men. A man is attractive to me, or he’s not. Doesn’t matter about the guy he’s with. In fact, the fact that he’s already romantically attached to a guy kills it :-).
Women in their thirties have to understand that women in their twenties are very interested in thirty-something (or forty-something) men.
I am a woman in my twenties. You are embarrassing yourself.
If a guy is ready to get married and have babies, a woman in their thirties (or forties I suppose. maybe early forties) is a great way to go. If a guy is ready to get married and have babies, a woman in her twenties is also a great way to go. If a woman is ready to get married and have babies a man in his thirties or forties or fifties is a great way to go. If a woman is ready to get married and have babies a man in his twenties is not a good way to go.
Women in their thirties have to understand that women in their twenties are very interested in thirty-something (or forty-something) men. I don’t think women in their twenties care that women in their thirties aren’t interested in twenty-something men, because a lot of them (20-something women) aren’t interested either.
You’re still missing the point.
You want to date younger women, date younger women. Just don’t put forth nonsense theories about evo psych and what “men” want and what “women” want as if your own preferences were universal. Own your own choices — don’t blame women your own age for them.
“Amazing? Why? I’ve been told all my life, explicitly and implicitly, that I won’t be a Real Woman until I’m married and a mother. That a woman’s highest and best purpose is to be a mother and raise the next generation.”
Then perhaps if you go back you will find that what you objected to was a counterargument to the one suggesting that a guy isn’t a Real Man until he’s married and a father.
bmmg39
Gee, I think all women should be interested in 20 something men. As our men age, we should just keep trading them in for younger models…
(Forgive my attempts at humor)
My own preferences are for men near my age. Though it may be difficult to find, the mature, patient, warm, caring, intelligent 20 something men DO exist (and I should know, because I have mine, and he’s a baby 20 year old - to my 22). Insisting that 20 something women prefer older men sounds like a product of ego to me. ;)
However, I see no problem in a relationship with an age gap (as long as both partners have maturity and the playing field is even - as in, the older partner is not taking advantage of the younger, which I believe oftentimes happens when the older one is a teacher/mentor whether they consciously want it to or not). My mother is in one of these relationships (where the boyfriend is 13 years younger). I have to admit some sexism in the fact that I feel a kind of smugness when I see older women/younger men, but some distaste (with exception! metronomekiller & TakesTime :)) when I see older men/younger women. (The older man/younger woman pair is a little too cliched for me… always good to shake up the status quo a bit and have more of the opposite.)
I know that age really doesn’t make a difference in real love. And real love is great. But when one dates someone with such age, there may be problems down the road and I’m not sure if that relationship would last. Such as extra baggage.
I know of this 52 year old man that is dating a woman about 20. They dated a few months and now she is pregnant. He is an alcoholic, smokes cigarretts and weed. I’m worried that the unborn child will be born normal.
People should really think about the consequences of their actions before indulging. But with life, I know that may be hard. As to be human is to error.
I am a 26 yr old woman married to a 41 yr old man. We have 2 kids that are ages 6 and 4. We have been together for a few weeks shy of 7 yrs. And married for 3. We have had our ups and downs in the relationship throughout, but in the end we always seem to come together. Plain and simple “We are in love”! And it works for us. Altogether in anothers eyes we may not have that approval, just like any other genre of love in the world today.
I am a 26 yr old woman married to a 41 yr old man. We have 2 kids that are ages 6 and 4. We have been together for a few weeks shy of 7 yrs. And married for 3. We have had our ups and downs in the relationship throughout, but in the end we always seem to come together. Plain and simple “We are in love”! And it works for us. Altogether in anothers eyes we may not have that approval, just like any other genre of love in the world today.
TakesTime has apparently not noticed that women in their thirties were, at some point, women in their twenties.
If we want to speak about generalizations… TakesTime also doesn’t realize that there are many men in their 30’s and 40’s that are bitter, bitter, men carrying baggages so heavy that the 747 can’t take off the runway. For every bitter woman I’ve met, there is a bitter man. Many bitter men stop looking for a relationship but start wanting no strings attached sexual relationships, often with younger women that don’t have the experience to question them or recognize their vitriol.
Life and bad experiences naturally make people bitter, and that’s OK. I want a person that’s learned from their experience. There are people that tend to get bitter and blame everyone else for their issues- and those that take bad experience and turn it into a positive learning experience in the end. I’d rather be with the latter, regardless of their age.
know of this 52 year old man that is dating a woman about 20. They dated a few months and now she is pregnant. He is an alcoholic, smokes cigarretts and weed. I’m worried that the unborn child will be born normal.
I’d be more worried that he’ll be dead before the child’s out of high school. Ok, so nobody’s owed two parents, and accidents can happen to young men too, but deliberately planning it so the kid can expect to be half-orphaned by twenty seems really cold. And if he’s lucky enough to live into his seventies, how exactly is an elderly alcoholic smoker going to deal with the stress and physical work of raising a child?
Thing is, a lot of people would like to get married but end up rejected or alone for various reasons. It really isn’t right to insult them by saying they are not “real” men or women.
For many people, a relationship with an old/younger person, or a person from another country, gives them happiness, so who are we to criticize?
The end result can be criticized if not thought out properly. Anyone can have a relationship with anyone they want to. Is this to say, “if it feels good, do it?” I don’t think so.
I am a 58 yr old secure man madly in love and living with a 35 year woman for about a year. Though we have had our ups and downs on many issues, I enjoy catering to her every need and love doing it. Does this make me a dirty old man lusting after the cradle so many of these talk about? Or is it that I am truly in love and have a need to make this wonderful woman feel like a queen. Either way, it fulfills both of our needs at this point in our lives and if she’ll have me, I hope to spend the rest of my life with her.
I am a 66 year old man and for 18 months have been living with a 26 year old young woman. Fortunately I am very healthy and still have a sex drive!!
She is absolutely gorgeous - slim and athletic.
She has a 2.5 year old son and we have discussed having a child of our own.
I have 2 grown up sons by an earlier marriage.
Her father is 10 years younger than me and is not happy with our situation but we make each other very happy.
I don’t feel like a “dirty old man” and in fact am envied by some of my contemporaries. I enjoy using my experience and knowledge to benefit my young partner but I endeavour to ensure she makes her own decisions in her own way.
Who knows what the future holds for us. Pressure from her family does affect us but we know given the chance we will have a fruitful partnership together.
“I enjoy using my experience and knowledge to benefit my young partner but I endeavor to ensure she makes her own decisions in her own way.”
John - thanks for relating your experience. I also try to endeavor to ensure she makes her own decisions and lead her own life, but I stumble from time to time and pressure from her family, and in some cases her peers, are starting to make her think twice and doubt her decision. I can’t change that, and wouldn’t want to for the sake of any long-term relationship. My love for her is strong and real, but love alone is not enough so wish I had a better guide on how to make her feel more secure with our age differences and be the caring partner she wants and deserves. Time will tell, but she is the most wonderful woman I’ve had the privilege of being with and pray that it works out.
I am a 61 year old, unhappily married man who’s been involved with a 26 year old woman for the past 4 years…because she lives halfway across the country from where i live in california, our “relationship” has mostly been an online affair punctuated by frequent phone calls back and forth–she’s only flown out to be with me several times in the past couple of years so in some respects I guess you could so a strong current of fantasy runs through our relationship…nonetheless, in all those years, the connection between us was incredibly strong and I had never experienced such a total feeling of being loved…the huge age gap between us didn’t seem to matter at the time (even though in public we sometimes felt a little self-conscious about showing physical affection)… The momentum continued to build unitl around late 2004 when she was on the verge of moving out here to live permanently. At the last moment she backed out and decided to stay put…, mostly because of financial considerations and parental pressure (her parents don’t know about us but they made it clear to her that they didn’t want their only child to move so far away).
As a result, the past year or so has seen a waning of the intensity and passion between us…the flood of weekly phone calls and emails has dwindled to a trickle…the hot phone sex that was once so exciting now has become a thing of the past. She has started to go out with friends more often, started singing karaoke in clubs instead of staying home nights and has developed an interest in a couple of young men her own age…nothing serious but she’s definitely interested….Two weeks ago she told me that she still loves me but that she really sees no future for us. I knew this day would eventually come and I thought I’d be able to take the news calmly and rationally (at least on an intellectual level)…but surprise surprise it really bothered me…in fact, i sort of broke down on the phone and told her how much i was IN love with her (which i had never really said before…it was always “love ya”)…now that she is drifting away i find myself feeling bereft and abandoned….i guess maybe it’s inevitable…the fantasy romance has popped…she said she enjoyed just being able to hang out with people her own age…to not feel like she has to sneak around or feel like people are commenting about our age gap, etc.
In the past couple of weeks, I have made a concerted effort to rekindle what we had (in spite of the realization that things will never be the same as before)… and things have sort of returned to the way they were before: we email every day, i call her several times a week..we tell each other we love each other but it’s not the same as before and i know it never will be….now she is planning to come out here with her best girlfriend for a weeklong visit in april…she says she can’t promise anything (about us being intimate) and that we will just have to see how things go…i plan to stay at the same hotel as her (different room) and she said she would stay with me in the evenings…even intimating she might stay all night (her g/f is supposedly ok with that)…I want to recapture the intimacy we once had but am afraid of becoming too vulnerable and getting hurt…..it would just kill me if she told me “let’s just be friends” as i reached out to hold her…
Should I just let it go? Being held at arm’s length while being teased at the same time has really confused me.
I know that I am just a “fill-in” now until she finds a permanent b/f her own age who can do “normal stuff” with her and with whom she can have a future…Why is it so hard for me to bow out? I’d appreciate any comments from anyone who’s been thru this before…
I found this doing a google search about younger men/older women relationships. I’m a woman of 29 fighting my interest in a guy who is only a little over 4 years younger than me. I read your writing with a thankful heart, it means so much to me that a man has the capability to think this way. So much of the time I feel assaulted by the way things usually just “are” and we are told its “normal” I get a sick to my stomach feeling when I feel truly objectified by a man (no matter his age) and I realize he has no care for my opinion, my creativity, or my dreams. Yet I have been told that this is normal. I believe I have waited this long to marry because I want to find a man who likes me for more than my measurments and the length and color of my hair. Your article proves to me that its possible. Your a man and you think. I hope its not offensive it still sometimes suprises me. I just wish more of you were so eloquently vocal about your great thoughts!
When I was 55 I met and had a blazing affair with a young woman of 18. The last thing on my mind when this happended was getting involved with a teenage girl and I had never in my life dated anyone who was not age appropriate. But the sexual attraction was so strong that I plunged in and ignored all warnings…..and I am glad I did. Today nearly six years later, we have been happily married for five years. We have a four and a half year old and a three month old baby. I put her through Michigan State where she graduated third out of a class of 617 in the College of Education. Everyone we know points to us as the perect marriage. We share everything from joys to responsibilities. Yes the sex is still unbeleivable and yes guys do come on to her all the time as she is awell endowed and very beautiful young woman. No it does not bother me…it is a fact of life and I am secure enough in our relationship to trust her completely. I run five miles every night and am in excellent shape….She is in no way subservient or under my thumb. She is a strong and intelligent young woman. ANd yes guys kid me all the time about having a “ripe young babe”. I just smile. No she did not marry me for money. When we first got together I was paying massive child support and had slightly more disposable income than a high school boy with a good paper route. We fell in love….very simple..happens all the time…just not usually with the age gap we have. Do I get a kick out of it when somebody notices the ictire of us with my two loder kids on my desk and remarks, “That’s your WIFE??? Oh my God!” ? Of course. I’m only human. but we are both happy and in today’s world I think that alone is fairly rare.
Bill: 37 years is a huge age gap to overcome…but from the sound of things it appears that for now you have managed to successfully overcome it….but i can’t help but think that 10 years from now you and your “ripe young babe” will be one of the fortunate few if you still somehow manage to stay married…well, enjoy the now moment i always say…good luck to both of you….
pat
I’ve only read a few of the numerous comments, have found them to be thought provoking (Hugo’s as well, of course) but thought I’d put in my two pence as well.
I’m an attractive young(ish) woman (no false modesty here), with a list of interesting “encounters” with older men which is extensive in the extreme. None of it my doing other than having the “misfortune” to be attractive to them for whatever reasons. Honestly, I don’t know what made them behave in risky behaviour of varying degrees, from the middle aged businessmen walking past me when I was 13, one whispering to the other “Oh wow, jail bait” and leering at me, to the married middle aged Head of Department from a university actually putting his hands on me in a departmental stairwell (I was 32 at the time, he was approaching 60). It begins to have a distinct touch of the unbelievable and ridiculous after a while.
Appropriate behaviour or not, I have to say my therapist had an interesting comment recently: men mature emotionally at such a slower rate than women that it seems reasonable that many couples with large age gaps are likely to appear merely due to matching personalities and life attitudes. I’ll take his words as sincerely thoughtful and well measured. Well, with just a slight pinch of salt as he’s middle aged and has already complemented me on my attractiveness…
But on a more serious note - my studies in biological anthropology took an interesting twist one day. The female lecturer smiled grimly at the class and warned all the young men that they wouldn’t like the current lecture subject, “Marriage age differences in non industrialized populations.” It seems that, in these populations, young women are married off to much older men (i.e. 20+ years older) and the young men aren’t even permitted to touch women until they’re in their late 20s and have undergone many life threatening “manly” tasks. Only men who could prove their “worth” got to marry and reproduce. I can’t recall what ethnic populations she listed but there were quite a few.
Reminds me of European medieval aristocratic society. Shan’t dare label that backward, it worked and still could. Although I do notice that the peasants didn’t stick with such an arrangement, they married the children off as soon as they started looking at each other in strange ways over the tops of the wheat fields. Better safe than sorry, I suppose. Oh well, the plague brought on the rise of the middle classes from the peasants, and their social preferences clearly came with them.
Yes, I’m being somewhat facetious. :-)
Tracy.
37 years is a huge age gap to overcome
Yes, I agree that in 10 years, there are going to be a lot to consider, but too late. I hope for your sake that it works out. My gut feeling says that most gap marriages don’t. Consider the wrinkles, sickness, and the fact that your young wife may be looking at someone else when you can’t keep up.
Now if I am wrong, perhaps someone can send a message that they are 65 and the young wife of 35 is still with them. Interesting.
Tracy
Well you raise a good point…I mean what if in ten years she DOES start looking at other men? When I think of a list of the top ten things that could ruin our marriage, her having sex with another man is not even on the list. I mean she comes from a generation that has the attitude, “it’s only sex”. Now I’m not saying Id’ be thrilled…but she is a very sexual being…it was what first attracted me…for me to try to control that or change it would change a part of her…like Castrating a wild stallion….yes it does make it easier to control them…but to what end? And besides I don’t hae to give up sex at 70…I read about a guy who won the NYC marathon’s over 90class. Who knew there WAS an over 90 class…sickness….Im in MUCH better health at 60 than most guys in there 20s.
Tracy
And besides, I don’t think there is any evidence at all to suggest age gap relationships fail at a higher rate than normal ones. I mean let’s face it, marriage is in serious trouble…well over half of all marriages fail and that includes a lot of supposed IDEAL ones. I grant you there is some logic in not placing extra burdens on a marriage…but to suggest that my wife who is 24 now that I am 60 will go looking for other men when I get older….well, I’ll bet in 99.9% of the cases women who run around are NOT doing so becuase their mate is too old or too sick to have sex. I’ll bet it is becuase that mate has become emotionally absent…and the woman is not having her needs met emotionally…or her mate has become a jerk taking her for granted…or putting her down..or refusing to help her with household chores or any one of a number of things that builds up resentment. I personally think I can continue having sex and GOOD sex into my eighties….If I am wrong ( and no one can know the future) then I sincerely hope my wife finds a ….well…”freinds with benefits” for lack of a better term. I mean let’s assume I do get too old or sick to have sex. How could it possibly benefit me to want to limit HER sex life? I hope you don’t take this wrong. I am not at all into anything like the “swingers” lifestyle which I consider completely decadent..as well as pathetic and sick…but neither do I feel like I OWN her like a I own my car. Bob Dylan had a line in an old song…” She doesn’t have to say she’s faithful, yet she’s true like ice, like fire” Age gap marriages are no different from othe rmarriages unless you allow them to be. In five years of marriage we’ve only had one issue that we think MAY be related to our age gap….and that is we find it hard to make freinds as a couple…perhaps becuase no middle aged woman wants to run around with another couple where the other woman is a college girl with big boobs….I don’t know.But other than that the problems we’ve faced have been the same ones every other marriage face. We just seem to be more determined to overcome them. We have a stronger committment to make it work….do whatever it takes.
Pat
Well we are after all men and there is some serious truth in the age of maturity issue you raise. When I called one of my oldest and dearest friends and told her that I was at the age of 55 engaged to an 18 year old, her comment was, “well, it’ll probably work. She’s 18 and you’ve got teh emotional maturity of a 16 year old…so that’s not such a big differnce really.” This was a woman I had had an affair with about 30 years ago…and she is incidentally six years older than me….but after the above good laugh she counseled me to make VERY VERY certain of what my motives were….she said there was nothing wrong with wanting to feel young again…but if I was using this girl to do that that it was not right and I HAD to let it go….told me to seriously examine my motives…and if I could calle ber back in a week and tell her I was sure…then she’d congratulate me and send a wedding gift.
Bill: I commend you on your honesty and open-mindedness concerning your wife’s sex life should you not be able to fulfill her needs. I’m 58 and my fiancé is 35… I don’t and never want to “own†her, as she is a free spirit and one of the thousands of reasons I’m madly in love with her. But, I’m not sure that I could say “go find some other guy to have sex with†because I can’t right now… maybe it’s because I don’t have problems in this area, but not sure. However, your comments have certainly made me think, though my fiancé says it doesn’t / wouldn’t matter, but I feel it’s selfish on my part not wanting her to be happy and fulfilled and don’t want to ever limit her happiness. It’s an issue I have to work out before I can truly and unselfishly let this wonderful lady say “I doâ€. So, any comments would be appreciated. Other issues mentioned like health, etc, we’ve worked out and I too are in many cases healthier than most 20-30 something year olds. I have for many years thoroughly enjoyed catering to her and would not have it any other way; it’s one of the many reasons we mesh together as a couple. I have found in our circle of friends that she enjoys the older crowd as much as I enjoy and get along with her younger friends. I agree with your thoughts and have also found that age differences don’t mean a lot to the right couple in terms of why a marriage/relationship fails. In fact, I have found that the ones I know are in many cases stronger than others I know without an age difference. I applaud your relationship and wish your marriage nothing but the best.
Just a tiny note: folks, some of you don’t realize that the postER’s name is below the text they’ve posted, not above it. People think they’re replying to me but they’re actually replying to someone called Eno. I was just the chick who made some facetious remarks centering on biological anthropology theories, and am not the “37 year age gap” commentor.
Don’t want to be tarred with any brushes, whenever such things happen ’round these here socio-psychological blogging woods…
Absolutely “love” the comment from Bill, “[…] you’ve got the emotional maturity of a 16 year old…’ Utterly brilliant. Just about sums up my last boyfriend, who was 12 years older than me. Now I’m just laughing at the teenage boys who think I’m in their peer group (at 34!) and worth chatting up. Whatever makes you go “Ding-dong!” (to quote Bridget Jones), ey?
Tracy
apologies for being too dumb to figure out who posted what. Yes the bit about having the emotinal maturity of a 16 year old was funny….but I don’t want to ignore the original intent of this whole topic which had to do with older men, younger women and INTEGRITY. Especially since I have a daughter ( living with my ex wife) who turns 18 this year. I have always been against any UNequal relationships….like professors and coeds…or bosses and secreatarys…anywhere where thre is a vast power differential. And one COULD argue that the mere difference in age and obvioud differenece in expereince between someone 55 and someone 18 in and of itself does constitute such a differential. OPddly enough it never once even entered my mind that I was doing anything WRONG in dating an 18 year old ….I did think a LOT about whether or not it was fair to her…..I mean my dad died an invalid…and no one can guarantee it won’t happen to them….even considering I’m in much better shape than most 30 year olds. Could it possibly be fair? THAT was teh question….and the answer came to me as the last line of a poem I was writin gfor her…I’d written 12 stanzas in about 2 hours and then put it aside for six weeks becuase I could not figure out how to finish it….and then I dreamed teh last line….which was….”And if she ever thinks on the things she’s missed, as she looks down one day from above…..One thing she’ll know for sure…she’ll know that she was loved.” And that was it….it made it ok in my mind. I knoew that no matter how much time we had together ..5 years 10 20 30…that she would know she had been loved more than any woman who ever lived. I am not at all a dirty old man….before meeting my wife, I lived with a woman and her daughter for 2 years….during which time teh daughter was 16 to 18…I never ONCE…and i can say this while I look her in the eye today…I never ONCE looked at her and thought,”yo babe.” I always just thougth what a nice kid…..even when she was running around in a bikini or with a towel wrapped around her…ANd I think she always felt safe around me….why? becuase she WAS safe….I just never looked at her in that way….I mean I wasn’t blind I coud see she was really cute….but it just wasn’t something I ever thought about. SO NO. I don’t feel my integrity is in jeopardy….
I see Maureen Dowd is making a production out of the fact that she can not find a husband now that she is in her 50s.
This is a chance for her to strike a blow against traditional sex roles. She can take the initiative and find some younger guy who makes only a fraction of her salary. Then she can romance him and offer him a generous pre-nupt package. After the honeymoon, she can let him stay home and keep house while she goes off to work.
There are a lot of guys out there who would love to be supported by an older woman. Men ought to have the option of marrying up.
I see Maureen Dowd is making a production out of the fact that she can not find a husband now that she is in her 50s.
This is a chance for her to strike a blow against traditional sex roles. She can take the initiative and find some younger guy who makes only a fraction of her salary. Then she can romance him and offer him a generous pre-nupt package. After the honeymoon, she can let him stay home and keep house while she goes off to work.
There are a lot of guys out there who would love to be supported by an older woman. Men ought to have the option of marrying up.
I don’t mean to shock you, alexander, but I couldn’t agree with you more!
The thought of having a relationship with someone younger is appealing to me at times, but at my age, I don’t think I want to be bothered raising another kid. And that is what I’d have to deal with. Done that before. Its not worth it. And besides 95% of age gap relationships don’t work out. I’d be hurt and now is the time for me to have peace of mind and enjoy my latter years. Thanks for all the comments above. It was an interesting reading.
I don’t mean to shock you, alexander, but I couldn’t agree with you more!
Uh oh!
Eno: Sorry you feel that way, but I think if you feel you’re ‘raising another kid’ then the situation isn’t right for you at the start. It is worth every second, if you have the right mix. Not sure about your ‘95%’ statement, but if close to being true, at least in my case, I hope I’m in the 5% that makes it. Understand about not wanting ot be hurt… so I wish for you the best on whichever direction you chose.
Dear Hugo,
Thank you so much for this blog post. I had a troubling experience today that has been keeping me up all night and your post made me understand why. (I discovered this post through googling “older men hitting on much younger women.”)
I am a 27 year old female attorney who could probably pass for a high school student if I wanted to. A man much my senior (I suspect in his 60s) spent our entire lunch meeting today hitting on me and I haven’t been able to shake a very disturbed feeling since. I respected this man and saw him as the “safe” person you advised some men should be. He had been like a mentor and I never imagined he would ever hit on me. While in the situation, I believe I handled it in a way that preserved his ego and allowed us to continue a courteous relationship, but am now thinking that I should have just told him how inappropriate (and disappointing) his advances were. I now feel grossed-out (couldn’t find a better word) and betrayed and constantly wonder whether I could have prevented any of this. Essentially, I feel dirty that he thought of me the way that he did and that he dared act on it at the risk of my discomfort.
Thank you so very much for putting into words all the things that I needed to understand today. You are incredibly profound and I tremendously appreciate the analysis, insight, and sincerity you put in this post.
A man much my senior (I suspect in his 60s) spent our entire lunch meeting today hitting on me and I haven’t been able to shake a very disturbed feeling since.
I find the term “hitting on” very interesting. Do you think that alleged sexual advances are the same as physical violence?
One of the biggest complaints I hear from women is that they can’t meet men, there is a man shortage, and so forth. Yet when a man does show an interest in a woman, he risks being dehumanized and criminalized under “sexual harassment” laws.
(Of course, I realize the age differential is an issue here in your discomfort. But what if this had been a guy in whom you were interested?)
A couple of weeks ago I was having coffee with an older woman whom I know only from yoga class at a Coffee Bean (this was after class). Right in the middle of our talking about yoga, she blurted out “Let’s make babies!”
Now, I can state I was a bit discomforted by this statement, but I see no reason to make a federal case out of such things. It’s all part of life.
Alexander, this is thread drift — again. The fact that others have done it in the past doesn’t give you the right to do it here. Stay on the topic of the post, or risk being banned.
Alexander, this is thread drift — again. The fact that others have done it in the past doesn’t give you the right to do it here. Stay on the topic of the post, or risk being banned.
I am 24 and I date a 46 year old man for the past 7 months.I must admit that we have a great relationship.I don’t find in him the father figure I lacked as a child and I don’t seek any protection either.
When I was 13 until the age of 17 I knew and lived in the same household with an older and very perverted man.(My aunt’s husband to be exact).Yes I felt dirty during my entire adolosence and felt I could never trust not only an older man but any guy in general.That all changed when I met my current B/F who with a lot of patience has earned my trust and allowed me to realize that not all men are jerks.Because truth be told I have encountred boys my age that have been absolutly direspectful.I am very greatful that I met my new significant other.In other words it’s really not about age diffrences but the level of maturity of these men.
I find the term “hitting on” very interesting. Do you think that alleged sexual advances are the same as physical violence?
“Alleged sexual advances” certainly are not the same as physical violence. But what is the relevance of this question here? No one has made such an assertion.
One of the biggest complaints I hear from women is that they can’t meet men, there is a man shortage, and so forth. Yet when a man does show an interest in a woman, he risks being dehumanized and criminalized under “sexual harassment” laws.
I don’t agree with your overly broad statement. A man who appropriately shows interest is rarely dehumanized and criminalized. A polite request for a date (even from a 60-something yr-old to a 27 yr-old as myself) is not the same as staring at a woman’s chest while making suggestive remarks. Some men know how to appropriately convey their interest without making a woman feel objectified while some men’s vulgarity merits dehumanization and criminalization.
(Of course, I realize the age differential is an issue here in your discomfort. But what if this had been a guy in whom you were interested?)
If I were initially interested in the guy and he were as aggressive and suggestive as this much older man was to me, I’d lose interest and peg him a pervert in my mind. The issue here, however, is not whether there is any interest in the man but the impropriety of some older men’s advances toward significantly younger women.
A couple of weeks ago I was having coffee with an older woman whom I know only from yoga class at a Coffee Bean (this was after class). Right in the middle of our talking about yoga, she blurted out “Let’s make babies!
This woman clearly expressed her attraction in a way that did not make you feel “dehumanized.” Lucky you. Odds are this woman could not overpower you or physically intimidate you with sexual advances.
Now, I can state I was a bit discomforted by this statement, but I see no reason to make a federal case out of such things. It’s all part of life.
No one is making a federal case here. I, personally, am only sharing an experience I had that left me feeling kind of bad. Another part of life is learning and sharing with others- it was therapeutic for me to read Hugo’s post and write about my experience. I am surprised that this experience offended or annoyed you as it did.
I don’t see what’s so wrong with an age gap. I just turned 16 and am not really interested in the boys my own age. They’re only… boys. I have huge crushs on all the attractive male teachers, who range from 29-40. In general, I like men who are 40-60. Ever since I turned 13 it’s be like this, there is no phsycological reason as far as I can tell, except perhaps a secret yearning for the validation in an older man’s affection. I know it’s probably inappropriate, but I go for what I want. It’s the man who should want me, I’m young and pretty enough. It’s easy to get them to forget their moral objection, if they’ve any at all. I suppose there’s a certain power in that.
I have nothing against older man - younger woman, or vice versa. But there’s a legal issue here of men being entrapped by underage women. Right now on the internet there is a lot of secret police activity revolving around just such entrapment.
More practically, the 16 year old guys you are rejecting today will one day be in their 20s and 30s and 40s. They will remember how you put them down for older men. And then they will be the ones who will refuse to marry you when you are in your 30s or support your children when you or in your 40s.
My advise? Ask out a guy your own age.
…and I managed to misspell “advice”!
Gosh, Alexander, you manage to give Hannah the right advice while giving it for all the wrong reasons.
Well the so called “entrapment” of these poor misunderstood men is NOT by 14 year old girls…but rather by law enforcement and Bummer! a guy can’t even get on the internet and hustle illegal underage girls any more. I mean we have laws for a reason…we have to place the cutoff point somehwere….and apparently there is an alarming number of men out there who feel thirteen is not unreasonable….I find this pretty frighteneing on a lot of levels….but one of teh biggest is that there are actually men who see this as an “entrapment legal issue.” and not as a social mental health issue….
Dear Friends, I hope to have a lot more to say to you all, I just found this website and felt I had to write something because it has been so valuable to me reading the dialogues already written.
I am engaged to be married to a woman younger than myself, and I have never been through such a range of feelings as I have been through the last few months. I hope I can keep writing about it.
Although I am not religious, I would say I am more of a spiritual person, and the following passage has been tremendous help to me.
Please do not think I am pushing some kind of christian agenda, I think anyone who has been in love with challenges will appreciate this.
Love is patient, love is kind.
It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud.
It is not rude, it is not self-seeking,
It is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs.
Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth.
It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always preserves.
– Author: 1 Corinthians 13:4-7
I was asked to read this passage at a friends wedding a few years ago, and thought it was a “nice” thing. It has become more like words to live by now.
I’m sorry I have to end this post here,I will write again soon.
Sincerely
Re the issue of entrapment…it is way too easy for the police to set up people.
I know, I’ve worked in the criminal justice field.
Gosh, Alexander, you manage to give Hannah the right advice while giving it for all the wrong reasons.
I try!
Thanks for the person who pointed out that the author name starts under the contribution. I started reading from the bottom up and hadn’t figured it out until I got to your note!!
I suppose we are all looking for validation. I found your wonderful site while searching for an answer to me, a 49 year old British man working in Greece, who allowed two women in their twenties to come into my rented house. Some things went missing and it caused me a lot of problems as I did not do the Christian thing instead I called the police. Now the local family is ashamed but I am fond of the older girl and we hugged and she fell asleep here - nothing funny happened but instead of hiding behint th e police and all that kind of stuff I went out towards her as a human man. At the same time I am trying to date women on a respectable internet dating thing. I am trying to be good and do the right thing but also I look at sexual stuff on the internet. .. I am really grateful because I went to all boys boarding schools and had bad asthma when i was younger and Ive got low self esteem plus im lazy and selfish and a recovering alcoholic. I havnt had a drink for sixteen years. I am so pleased that some people see there is a big problem with the way men are being taught not to relate to women as humans. I feel ashamed about the old man who discomfited your lady correspondent. I remember when I used to drink I was inapproprite and rude in my relations. Very disfunctional actually and a sad state for men to be in generally - drinking so much because we think we cannot handle our feelings. Maybe because it takes so long for men like me to grow up (if we live that long) is the reason we wake up and see the beauty around us so late in life. I would like to know what it says in the Bible about this and what Jesus says about this.
When I was 17 I started dating a man 25 years my senior. This relationship lasted a full 7 years, through my A-Levels, university education and my first few jobs. Although I know it shocked a lot of people, not least my mother, we were truly in love. He taught me many things about politics, culture, music, life in general and myself, but I also think that I taught him some things in return. My confidence improved immeasurably when I met him and suddenly I worked twice as hard at my academic studies because I wanted him to realise that I was clever. My grades went up, and he encouraged me to pick the university that was best for me, rather than the one nearest him. Sexually, he put me under no pressure at all, and in the end I had to ask to go to bed with him.
When I went to university he drove miles each week to visit me. When I moved to the city where he lived he put me under no pressure to move in, but provided me with a roof over my head until a friend was in a position to share an apartment with me.
It’s been a while since we broke up. I hated telling him it was over - it cut me up to see him vulnerable but we’re still very good friends and see each other regularly - I don’t think I can imagine my life without him in it.
Now I’m with another man, who is also much older - 20 years in this case. Once can be considered an aberration, but twice? I have to presume that there is something about older guys that attracts me. I have a great relationship with my father, half the time I end up being the “mother” in my relationships, emotionally speaking, and am always told that I have a strangely old head on young shoulders, but owing to my innate tendency to worry, I have started to wonder on the reasons behind my relationship choices. People have, none too kindly, queried my family background, monetary situation, even whether I’d been abused (no I haven’t). I feel resentful that my relationships are under scrutiny by others – even people I’d thought very liberal have said that they didn’t understand and thought it was a bit disgusting.
In teenage relationships with boys of a similar age I felt pressured and manipulated – but in both my current and last relationships I have felt in control, confident and an equal.
So, am I twisted, or is it possible to be perfectly emotionally balanced, while having relationships with men a generation older? I’ve even started reading both Freud and Jung to try and get to the bottom of this one, so if anyone can help me out, I’d be truly grateful!
On a side note regarding my ex-boyfriend’s friends – they all accepted me (male and female) except one, who had not met me and threatened my ex with a slow and painful death if he dare hurt me. She was a staunch feminist in her late 40s and had had a brief relationship with him many years before. When we finally met I remember feeling rather maligned since she kissed everyone else on the cheek and only shook my hand, but during the weekend we talked at length and when I left she both hugged and kissed me – I think that once she’d seen that I was neither a bimbo nor a gold-digger I was accepted into the fold. I did however encounter prejudice from strangers in restaurants and on the street when we were together and there was certainly a ‘type’ of woman in her 30s/40s who would whisper about me, glancing over all the while to make sure I knew what they thought of me as well as young lads in the street – on one occasion a man in his early 20s shouted at my ex ‘you’re too old for that’ and frankly, that just confirmed to me how much I wanted this older, educated, suave, sophisticated, intelligent guy rather than that little twerp…
just came by this site. very thoughtful blog on older men/younger women. So how do you explain a late fortyish man who has for years professed to see women not so much as objects but as humans and who perviously wouldn’t never dream of dating younger women (he liked em smart so he claimed) and all of a sudden is now only hanging around and dating 20 year olds? Would you say this man is compensating? or that he wants other men to see him as the alpha male (what I call “dick sizing”)? What if these men have unaccomplished lives personally and professionally who depended on others (such as their moms and dads) to take care of them? what I am saying here is there are men dating women 20-300 years younger to fulfill some needs that are not really healthy. It is pathelogical. They need to feel “validated” by other men and being with young hot and fertile women is one way to do this. They use the hot younger woman as their tool to impress other men. What they are really doing is not confronting their own lack of accomplishments in their own lives. I have a friend who told me he was at a doctor’s appointment. there was a man in his early 50s with very young womanin her 20s who was all over this man as his GF. He kept making eye contact at with every single man in the waiting room as if thinking that they were be envious of him and that he had a higher status as a male. What it shows to me is his own insecurities and lack of power in life. As for the women, there are women who want to go out with men who are 20-30 years older because they want a father figure even if it is sexual. A father figure in a sexual way is not not healthy for women. It is likewise pathelogical and does not comfront their own insecurities.
I fully agree with Johanna (June 16, 2006). It is a shame that women are still being exploited in this modern society. Women who are older are pushed to the wayside for the younger. Is there any integrity in modern dating anymore? Can older men be satisfied with being a mentor and respect the younger woman without alterative motives?
Good luck to you for I am older and have chosen solitude and peace.
I waited until I was 39 to get married for the first time and I rushed into a marriage to a 25 year old. She was pregnant six weeks after the wedding. Once we really got to know each other, I realized that she was not the one for me. Nothing to do with her age, it was her personality and our lack of a connection. I’ve hung in there for 10 years, mainly for my daughter. This year, I changed jobs and met the woman of my dreams. Observing her, I could see that she was the most amazing woman I had ever met. I couldn’t wait to see her every day and just spend time with her. I would be happy to just hold her hand. I’m now 49 and this woman is 25. I’ve been told that I look 39 and act 29. For nine months I refrained from making a move on her because (a) I was married and (b) she had a boyfriend. But when she disclosed her feelings for me a few months ago and said she had been crazy about me since day one, I had to tell her I felt the same. Would it be crazy to dump my wife and daughter and be with this woman? She wants to marry me and mother my children.
well Johanna… having married a young woman of 19 when I was 55…..I’m a successful research chemist…widely published…the holder of a US patent…presented papers at International Conferences in this country and Europe……I don’t THINK I’m compensating for my lack of achievement….I also served as president of the Board of Directors of my older kids school….I run six miles a day. I’m not incapable of having a relationship with someone my own age….I dated a succesful attoreny a year older than me for two years….a very fine woman and we remain best freinds to this day…but I was not in love with her….and I was planning on living alone…and then I met this incredible young woman….I’m only human and so whenever someone notices the pictire of my family on my desk and comments on all my children and I say…”well actually the brunette on the right ismy wife” and they go”Your WIFE???? Are you JOKING?”…yeah I smile…but that’s about teh extent of my alpha male behaviour. I think you fall in love and sometimes it is not under circumstances you would choose…..witness interracial marriages….or interfaith marriages in some circles….marriage is hard enough and doesnt’ need any extra burdens….but when love strikes it strikes…..sure I get comments like ” you sly dog you.”….but I’m not really into that….never have been…
lots of interesting posts here..very educational. i’m 55 and recently met a women, age 30, we get along incredibly, great conversations, great tenderness, and wonderful sexual intimacy as well. She lives in another country and is considering visiting for a month or so…a part of me wants to see and be with her again, a part of me wants to call it off and is doing the math, and even though i am a very fit and active guy, the ‘gap’ will be quite obvious ..at 70 - she’ll be 45, i also wonder how her & my friends/family will treat us. I’ve been in a relationship with a women, 7 years younger then me, for 10 years - lots of good things, but her illness, her self-centeredness, and our non-sexual relations for 2 years was very hard to handle. I’m not sure what ‘love’ really is–but there sure are big feelings between and my lady friend and I. Any comments, advice, perspectives, welcome. thanks.
Would it be crazy to dump my wife and daughter and be with this woman? She wants to marry me and mother my children.
How exactly is the new girlfriend going to mother your child for you if you “dump” your child? That doesn’t make sense.
Oh, but you don’t mean she wants to mother this real, existing daughter of your current marriage. You mean she wants to mother her own yet-unborn children. Since you like to fantasize about dumping children when you leave their mothers, it’s hardly fair or accurate to call them “yours.”
So how do you explain a late fortyish man who has for years professed to see women not so much as objects but as humans and who perviously wouldn’t never dream of dating younger women (he liked em smart so he claimed) and all of a sudden is now only hanging around and dating 20 year olds? Would you say this man is compensating?
I think it’s simply natural. Nature can appear to be cruel sometimes, but no amount of shaming or social engineering is going to change it. Men do place a lot of emphasis on a woman’s physical appearance and youth helps. A woman who is young is displaying her fertility. I’d consider it pathological to be sexually attracted to a woman who clearly looks years past her menopause or a girl who is clearly yet to reach puberty. Again, this sounds cruel and rather arbitrary, but it is simply nature. To deny nature is to refuse to understand it. I’m not saying it’s fine to date 13 year-old girls by the way, but I understand men who might impulsively find them sexually attractive if they clearly look like they’ve hit puberty.
Nature needs to be tamed around these ‘edges’ however, hence minimum legal ages to engage in sex are placed in law (quite rightly of course) - I’m talking purely instinctive nature.
I think it’s dangerous to be too idealistic when it comes to relationships. However much we want them to be an unconditional mutual acceptance between two people right from the initial stages of every relationship, you’ll find a quid pro quo system of conditions taking place underneath the romance and flowers in the beginning of a relationship - sometimes all the way through one. Now I do know there is such a thing as unconditional love - I’ve witnessed it, and felt it. In my experience, this is a love that grows over time - my thoughts in this post concern the initial stages of a relationship, which are the most important ones (otherwise….there is no relationship!).
I’d consider it pathological to be sexually attracted to a woman who clearly looks years past her menopause
If you have living, married grandparents, I’d consider it a public service if you’d tell them that and report back on how it went.
Okay, not a public service. Just vastly entertaining.
Whatever you do, do not visit a retirement community and ask the attendants what the residents get up to. The near-universal level of “pathology” among the over-65 set might permanently scar your tender mind. Old people denying nature every night - scary stuff.
I think it’s dangerous to be too idealistic when it comes to relationships.
Are you kidding? You’re idealizing female fertility to the point that the thought of old women fucking gives you the vapors.
Old people have sex with each other. This is a good thing, not a sickness. You’re going to have a hard time of it when you hit your seventies, I can tell you, unless you come to terms with it.
sophonisba, I think you’ve gone off on a tangent here. I didn’t say that old people having sex is wrong. I said that men’s general scope of what they find sexually attractive in a woman lies between the boundaries of puberty and the menopause. It doesn’t mean older couples having sex is pathological (I didn’t say that) - sex between two people can be more than just physical, especially if they’ve been in a very long-term relationship - physical intimacy has been proven to be good for humans. Heck, simply sharing a bed with someone you love is wonderful. I was speak of sexual attraction. If you showed images of 10000 women of all ages to 10000 heterosexual men, I guarantee you the results would show men were attracted to younger, more fertile-looking women. You have to accept we are guided to a certain extent by our nature. Guys dating younger women is all part of that nature I am describing.
sex between two people can be more than just physical
….that should read : sex between two people can be more than just physical sex
perplexed, I can guarantee you that if you showed images of 10000 men of all ages to 10000 heterosexual women, they’d find the younger men more attractive than the older ones. On an immediate, visceral level, women are just as attracted to firm bodies and smooth visages as men, no matter how much that may distress the ev-psych types. And dude, if finding women who are at or near menopause attractive is pathological, there are a lot of pathological men out there, at least judging from the content of my spam folder.
the boundaries of puberty and the menopause
That’s a pretty big range. If men are attracted to women between puberty and menopause, why would you expect them to date only women at the puberty end?
And “fertile-looking” is nonsense; can you look at a women and tell she’s fertile? What are the markers of fertility? (Hint: some of them are considered sexually repulsive in modern Western culture.)
That’s a pretty big range. If men are attracted to women between puberty and menopause, why would you expect them to date only women at the puberty end?
A woman in her mid-teens to late 20s is at her most fertile. This a medical fact - hence nearer the ‘puberty end’. Signs of fertility are a component of sexual attraction toward females - this is manifested in practically all species, and is virtually a tautology when you consider sexual attraction is based on wanting to have sex - procreation (where fertility is necessary).
I am a 39 year old man, professional, self employed, and well established, having recently met a 19 year old girl in the neighborhood, at first walking my dog, and she hers. We first became friends and then she asked me out. We then had one month of non-stop intimacy that was incredible, although I found the relationship complex in many ways, given differences in our emotinal and intellectual development. I found this site and was compelled to contribute as I am going out of my mind thinking about this girl. I sought to end the relationship, but yet I did not want to do so because of my attraction. This girl is smart, fun, and yes, extremely attractive. I am divorced and have dated but have never found myself as happy as I was for that month or so. Given my comments about reservations in continuing the relationship things kind of fizzled. We ended up not talking for awhile but because of the proximity of where we live it is difficult not bumping into her. Recently she began calling and for the past several weeks we seem to have developed a friendship that did and has not invloved sex, but does and has involved flirting, physical and non-physical. In that back of my mind I have thought there is no way this can go on because all I think about is the one-month period of time when it was non-stop sex and fun. I have communicated this to her and suggested I needed to take a break from the “friendship thing”. She has had a 28 year boyfriend in the past, who she claims was her first sexual experience when she was 18. I think she likes older guys. She has a complex family history which would take to long to get into. Nonetheless, we took a break from each other for a while and I recently saw her with another guy and now find myself a neurotic mess because I want to be with her. Anyhow my point is, in reading all of the posts that I have, I do see arguments for the age difference being a huge problem and agree with everything Hugo has said. I now wish this was a case where age would not matter but it seems to have mattered a great deal. Anyhow, the whole thing was great but now I find myself emotionally distraught over not developing a relationship with this girl and I inevitably will be running into her over and over again. My advice, do not let age matter, but of course realize the potential pitfalls it presents and be prepared to deal with the feelings of a failed relationship. In my case those feelings were exponentially exagerrated compared to other failed relations, I think because I like this girl more than any other woman I’ve been involved with in a long time. Any advice or support would be greatly appreciated from those eading htese comments.
Linc: as hard as it may be, listen carefully to the inner voice that told you to essentially “cool it” with this girl after boffing her non-stop for a month…you know deep down that it would never work out in the long run because both of you are in very different stages of your lives:socially, emotionally, intellectually, financially…you name it…a man pushing 40 and a girl still in her teens are simply not going to be able to overcome all the challenges and hurdles inherent in such a huge age gap. It’d be a different story if you were, say, 50 and she was 30….she’d have more life experience and the balance of power and maturity would be more equal. I say let this go–move on with your life, Linc, and find someone closer to your own age. I speak from experience, believe me (see my post above).
This a medical fact - hence nearer the ‘puberty end’.
Puberty starts much younger than ‘late teens to early 20s’. And, again, if visibile signs of fertility = sexual attraction, there would be little cultural variation and we wouldn’t see much interest in features that were neutral or contraindicative. Being blonde has nothing to do with fertility, and being thin is something negatively correlated with fertility. We do put a premium on features associated with social class and wealth.
I am a 16 year old girl with a very interesting situation. when I was 13 my next door neighbor who was 34 at the time started to take a very keen interest in me. The only problem is he had just recently been married 1 month before I met him. He never tried anything on me sexually but we were very flirtatious and we spent a lot of time together.
When he moved away we started talking online. My mom and her friend found some of our conversations and called him up and told him he could never contact me again. They believed he was being inappropriate with me and “a line had been crossed” I was devastated. I know he was very hurt too he said he felt like a sex offender.
3 years later- i’m almost 17 and I really still miss him. I know he has red flags all over him because he’s happily married, but i wish he hadn’t led me on like he did. I saw him in January after not seeing him for 2 years and he made comments like “You’ll be 18 in two years” and stuff like that. I don’t know if anyone has had a similiar situation. I mean, I care about him but I don’t want to be some chick on the side or cause him to cheat on his wife.
It’s all very complicated.
Skyelove, I understand that the situation is complicated for you, but I can assure you that it is all rather simple for your happily married friend. He gets a rush out of his ability to get attention from a young woman such as yourself, and he intends to continue doing it. He may actually tell himself that the two of you truly have a “special relationship” but he doesn’t let that stop him from using you for his own egoic satisfaction. No doubt he feels that he has a “special relationship” with his wife as well, but that is no check on his behavior. There is a good chance that he will be willing to enter a full-blown sexual relationship with you, if he thinks he can get away with it.
My first-level advice for you would be to cut off all contact with this fellow at least until you are on your own and in a solid relationship yourself, and see how this situation appears to you then (and getting your boyfriend’s opinion as well). If that is difficult, then I would suggest that you lay down terms with this friend, that there be no more flirting or innuendo between you - that he stop it forthwith and treat you respectfully, as any other acquaintance. When you see that he is unable to relate to you without this, perhaps it will be clear that he is feeding off of your youthful femininity.
I wish he hadn’t led you on as well, but he did - and there is every reason to believe that this happily married man is ready to continue doing so. Don’t let him. You deserve better.
(How are all these unhappy people finding Hugo’s blog, anyway?)
A 34-year-old newlywed who hits on a 13-year-old should feel like a sex offender, because he is one.
Thank you for your advice!
I’m good friends with his step-daughter so it’s difficult to stop all contact. Although, I have tried. I think part of the reason why I looked up to him is because my own Dad is kind of absent in my life emotionally and we’ve never had a healthy relationship mainly because he doesn’t know how to raise girls.
I know I deserve better and I’ve slowly but surely been allowing guys my own age to approach me because I kinda pushed them all away within the last 2-3 years which is really sad and pretty pathetic. But anyways, thanks again, and I will definitley use your advice =D…
people, this is an extreamly complex issue, but in my opinion the main point is a follows:
1. The abuse/manipulation: in all relationships there is the potential for the abuse of power, position, etc. This only really becomes a problem however,if the older male, is actually abusing the younger female! Im sure that some relationships, even where they have been between teacher and student have been free from all abuse etc.
The originol blog seemed to be making the point that the potential for abuse however comes from the very fact that their is an age differance. Whilst this a potential factor which would allow abuse, it doesnt mean that abuse has to happen and it also fails to take into account any other factors thta redress the balence. In fact the originol post reeks of martyerdom where our behaviours must be controled because of some ‘potential’ for bad things to happen rather than making decisions based upon our intentions!
My actions are based upon my heart, because I strive to keep my heart pure. I do not base my actions upon a code of external moral ethics which are in place because some unscrupulas person has once abused a situation. This is a bit like saying I won’t own a car because I may one day kill someone by drink driving!
Ultimatly, if you are atracted to someone, go for it! If you are abusing them in some way by manipulating your age, power and knowledge, then your an asshole in the first place and whatever relationship you enter into will proberbly be bad for your partner!
Hi all. I am 46. I have met a 24 year old woman, and we have started a relationshp. No one chased anyone, it just fell into place. We make each other laugh a lot, share a similar taste in music and movies, and love the same sporting activities. She is very special, a smart young woman with a facsinating take on life. Apart from the above common ground, in me I think she sees someone with a lot of interesting life experiences and know-how, and probably a good deal of confidence. I have learned by experience how to treat a woman (I don’t mean how to ‘play the game’ but how to behave, what women like from men), things I had no idea about in my earlier years and relationships. These are all not things she has had in previous relationships with men closer to her own age I think. The age question has not arisen at all, except very recently in my head. I have begun to wonder about our roles and where this is all going. I have no moral concerns about this, she is an adult and not in a vulnerable postion vis a vis me, and my actions and words have been agenda free and honest. We really enjoy each others company on many levels, including sexually, but that is not the main thing - it’s a beautiful bonus. Should I really be wondering about this at all? Are some of the comments on this topic above not really making an issue out of something that isn’t an issue (where clear-cut predation is not a factor of course)? Yes, I am aware that she is young and beautiful. I also notice beautiful woman who are ten years her senior, but I am not in relationship with an of them. I happen to have a girfriend who is almost half my age. Is this really a bad thing, for either of us?
Tony,
I am a 36 year old professional woman who has recently dated a man who is 50 and a man who is 54. Both of these men were well mannered professionals. I can’t be sure what was in their heads, so I won’t go there. However, I can give you the female perspective and I encourage you to listen to it.
No matter the intentions of these men, I felt at a distinct disadvantage. Both men were very nice to me and had the manners you speak of- they knew how to treat women well. However, I was acutely aware that they had much more life experience than me, and that I was always playing with a handicap. I was also aware of the sexual attraction they had for me, which was multiplied by our age difference. I am sure our relationship also fueled their ego. As a result, I think their judgement may have been (willingly and happily) clouded. So, the whole time I had a skepticism and doubt about whether they were attracted to me as a person, or our age difference and the added sexual tension and ego boost it gave them. I think you guys have a definite tendency to let these things get mixed up.
You will have other women in the same situation who are not so self aware or willing to examine the dynamics. Some may also be too wrapped up in their vanity and the treatment they get from these older men to tell you (or even realize) these dynamics. It can be a powerful trip as a woman to be with an older man who has access to power or wealth or social status.
In the end however, one person (the younger) is at a distinct disadvantage. It’s like playing chess with a developmentally delayed person, but convincing yourself that it’s an even game. It also messes with the younger woman’s head. She will now always wonder if an older man (who we tend to trust and idolize as father figures) is safe or would think of her in a sexual way. And there are times when we think we would like that, but you must realize that you should be the more emotionally mature party, and be able to take a pass.
Interesting. As an educator, I agree. Don’t get involved with students, period. I would extend this to say that one should also not get involved with colleagues. If one teaches in a small or mid-sized town, it is even a good idea to remain the “safe” guy with all of the locals because it isn’t just a matter of one’s interaction with students. When students see you in any role outside of the gender neutral role, even if one is out on the town with someone else, the teacher has lost his/her innocence in their mind. They see you differently. So, I avoid all relationship stuff anywhere in the greater metro area. It works out fine.
One shouldn’t forget that female students are perfectly capable and often make passes at instructors; they’re not the total innocents, you know! And the passes are not subtle–usually, they just come out and ask to go out for drinks or dinner even. In one case, a female student employee at a library got my name off of my library card and tracked me down. Kind of weird behavior. In these cases, the students violate our emotional boudaries. Don’t forget, instructors have feelings, too. As I wish to avoid all contact with students or colleagues it is very annoying that I have to even deal with this stuff.
Trust and professional aside, teaching is a job like any other…I teach and play the avuncular role, they pay me, and I go home to my own life. People who get involved with their students are making two mistakes: 1) they are engaging in a very unethical power relationship; 2) they are egotistical narcissists who actually believe that they are something more than an employee like any other. It is just a job and students are just the customers…that’s it.
One advantage to going out with someone older is that they are a repository of information about earlier decades than one can recall. Years ago I went out with a woman who was a former SDS-hippie and I learned a lot about the 1960s.
im 27 and i find myself attracted to my 38 year old law professor who also happens to be in a relationship with another law lecturera(34 year old). they might be engaged even not sure, i never asked though she wears a ring but he doesnt. been going out for many years but til today he never proposed to her.
i dont think most students like him as he is notoriously hard with his marking and sarcastic. i dare say if he was single i’d ask him out after i graduate end of this year but not sure whether it will happen. when i came to australia from malaysia few years ago after finishing my business studies i never thought id fall for a lecturer but i did. not sure whether he knows.i do notice that despite being harsh with his marking he is always nice to me(has seen me more than any other student in the faculty for work & also when i have personal problems). in fact we have a lot in common, both without siblings, both have similar academic backgrounds (business & law), both witty,sarcastic,very close to our family, etc. im not surprised to find some students particularly females ones falling for their lecturers at Uni. older men have some qualities that some younger men dont have which makes them attractive-maturity,confidence,power,intelligence,ambition etc. even if they may not be incredibly handsome(some balding like my professor) theres just something about them that makes you want to talk to them and get to know them even more.
i dont know whether it has anything to do with the fact that he is an italian migrant and italian men just have a way with women or it is just the fact that coincidentally we share similar values and beliefs.
so for older men out there who harbor aspirations of finding a younger companion there is hope & as for young women like me who find themselves attracted to older men do not feel guilty or ashamed.
just remember though that if you are in a working relationship with the person,where he/she is your lecturer, doctor etc, no matter how attracted you are to that person you have to remain professional and not engage in any kind of sexual relations with that person.
just remember though that if you are in a working relationship with the person,where he/she is your lecturer, doctor etc, no matter how attracted you are to that person you have to remain professional and not engage in any kind of sexual relations with that person.
-27 year old who likes her 38 year old law professor
For Elle…very good, no sexual relations with your professors.. Also, get him out of your mind. Your professor should not be part of your fantasy life. He’s your professor. That’s it. He’s a paid employee. Paid to care about you from an academic standpoint, and probably only for as long as the course lasts. That’s it. You are one of literally thousands of young enthusiastic students. Unless you are a superstar, you don’t stand out in his mind. After teaching 2,000+ students, there are only 20 or so, if they walked into my office today, that I would remember and with whom I would actually want to have a serious in-depth conversation. There isn’t a single one that I would want to stop by and say, “Gee, I had fantasies about you, Dr. X!” That would be a huge turn-off, quite frankly.
I think a lot of old guys are perverted pigs. Especially at water parks, I can feel the prying eye behind the sunglasses. I am not stupid, it’s actually quite disturbing… I had an older man pursue me, and I am 17, I don’t want to think he just wants to wait till I’m 18 to start coming on to me sexually, but from what I hear and have seen, I think that will be the case, unfortunately. It’s probably not good that he has a wife.
Must be lovely to just make sweeping generalizations about sexual perversions and older men. I think I learned about those in my gender studies class…they were referred to as…”sexism”–broad overreaching unfounded generalizations based in ignorance and bigotry.
What must we call all those nice (?) 20 and 30 something lonely heart female teachers who are molesting their 8th grade male students???
See, it isn’t too nice to generalize, is it? The latter are likely to be mentally ill INDIVIDUALS who need real help or punishment (your thoughts matter here). No sweeping generalizations by moi about the entire group.
In essence: let’s just say that there are alot of unsavory people (men and women) who do unsavory things. Wouldn’t it be nice to get beyond your sexism ?
Well, isn’t this a classic?
Many men are trying to reconcile repressed sexual attraction to younger females with their chosen political moralisms.
Gandhi used to sleep with much younger women, but without having sex with them — as an exercise to obtain the nirvana state of perfect brahmacharya.
Sexuality is natural and in conflict with moralism.
Sex thus is subversive both to Hugo’s Christianity and to Hugo’s feminism.
So Hugo, like Gandhi, seeks the possibility without enacting it. Thus he stands as the stoic, albeit, masochistic hero.
What Hugo terms integrity, is really just his idiosynchratic beliefs about how the world ought to be.
Hugo i agree with you.
I am 27 now, and had several “things” with older men in my teens, and in retrospect i think they are discusting, and wonder what they were thinking. I definately wanted some kind of validation, and thought by having sex i would be more like-able. I seriously regret these older men, especially the one who, when the condom broke, said, oh well, if i have aids we will die together. Or the one who took me along to his sex therapist because he had problems with impotence, and the therapist didnt even ask me my name, bc i was just the sex partner to this man with much more status than me, who couldnt get it up.
I had my first orgasm at 25, with a vibrator.
The older men who go for very young women are all too often interested in explaining the world to your impressionable young mind, i got older and spent a few years having hardly any sex but having gotten to know better what i enjoy, and when i run into any of the much older ex-es i have no respect for them at all.
ty, have you ever heard of personal responsibility? It’s almost as if you’re saying you didn’t consent to have sex with these men. You consented. You have to deal with your own choices you made and accept them. It sounds to me like you can’t deal with that. You didn’t have to sleep with them. You obviously were of the age of informed consent (otherwise it’s statutory rape).
My sex life spans 15 years; in that time, I’ve never regretted having sex with anyone. Why not? Because I took (and take) sex very seriously. I have had a lot of sex, and always enjoyed it and regretted none of it because I’m a very discerning guy, and I won’t do one-night stands, or sleep with a woman if I’m unsure. Result? Sex to me is a wonderful thing, with many wonderful memories, and no regrets. Ahh, personal responsibility is a great thing!
It amazes me how frivilous some people treat sex.
Dave; just as a biological comment - it’s more common for women to have sex while not aroused because clitoral flaccidity doesn’t prevent penetration. And a majority of women don’t acheive orgasm through penetrative sex alone; however, a lot of young women don’t really know that. I read a lot as a teenager, and all the sex seemed to be intercourse and simultaneous climax. I thought it would just work that way. It took me until I was 22 to figure it myself out. Now, there are women who have it figured right away; but at least in my group of friends, it’s about half and half.
ty, you don’t seem to me to be evading responsibility for your choices, and I totally recognize having that learning curve regarding sexuality. I also think if we’ve been with someone who we thought “knew how it worked” - because of age or experience - and they didn’t, in fact, share the info, we can be left scratching our heads. I don’t have much respect for that, either. I have sex I regret too, before I got it all sorted out.
ty, have you ever heard of personal responsibility?
Dave, another personal attack like that will get you banned. (And I’m in a banning mood.)
Consent, particularly for the young, is not a prophylazis against regret or exploitation. Just because you’ve coerced a reluctant “yes” from someone’s lips doesn’t diminish your responsibility as an older person, either!
Hugo, ty is trying to blame others for her choices she made. Personal responsibility is a massive aid to people - it really is. You can choose to minimalize your responsibility or even neglect it totally, but you will lead a sad life of blaming others for things you’ve done in your life. She is clearly projecting her own lack of self-respect when looking down on these guys. This is Psychology 101. Personal responsibility tackles these issues head-on, and gives you more power and control over your life. What’s more, you’ll be a lot more forgiving of yourself and of others when you do accept personal responsibility for your actions.
Dave, you are welcome to your opinions — but savaging other commenters who take the courage to share their stories here just won’t fly. My blog, my rules.
Hugo, you are a law unto yourself on this blog.
This is your blog, as you keep saying.
You have to realise you are a laughing stock in a few select areas of teh internets though.
You have to realise you are a laughing stock in a few select areas of teh internets though.
Ah, teh internets. Is the other one the one Al Gore invented?
I too found this site on a Google search….funny how things work out.
Hugo I must commend you for the ability to have an issue such as this aired in a public forum where the views of all are heard without judgement…pity some parents, partners friends and children cant be the same…
Yeah I have been involved with a younger female ( 17) for a year now I’m 49, and have a daughter her age…(I’m divorced - but not because of her)..
We met online in a chatroom for an interest we shared, her parents didnt know ( but that wasnt just because of me her parents were ULTRA Paranoid anyway)and only found out recently when her bro found out I existed and told her parents…who freaked big time….they took her Phone..Internet…ordered her to councelling and then….They called the Police. (in her State the legal age is 18…)
NOTHING Illegal took place in all the time we chatted, I even met her on occasions for a few hours of company once a month,which she looked forwards to as did I, where we chatted and held hands, and enjoyed the day…we got on very well indeed and she was just an angel, and I behaved just as a perfect gentleman should…but thats not good enough, because…
a) I’m 49 shes 17.
b) I MUST be a predator she met me online…
Anyway the Police Rang me and basically said that “it is her parents wishes that I cease and desist from any contact at all in any form whatsoever” (they were kind enough to state that the conversation would not be taking place if she was 18 more than a few times)…A point her parents I dont think have realised yet….
I have asked myself on a few occasions since the contact stopped….What would I have done if it was my daughter….certainly I dont think I would have allowed her to keep secrets..if she wants to chat to anyone keep it in the open, and If she is takling to anyone WHY??..and why do they want to talkk to you ..and if…IF…she wants to continue the chat then lets see who they are…if they are that nice and genuine..then lets meet them…so there can be rules.
My Friend is distraught at losing the friendship we had, and I’m hurt too….for losing that friendship and alSo for being judged for someone that I am not.
I was accepted for who I was by her, and it was a honest open decent friendship that has now been put on hold until she is 18 and I can wish her Happy Birthday - and I will; she knows that.
The best part…was that my impotence never made any difference to her at all which was so good to hear as most people just back away(I have been impotent since I was 34)…….it took me a long time to come to terms with it, now that I have ( and No medications work belive me I Tried) it was a blessing to find someone who saw me for who I really am.
We were the best of friends and I know that her parents have done what they have in their eyes “for her own Protection” but when she is 18 she can legally make her own choice, and they cant stop her.
It is wonderful to read so many positive posts about something that the vast majority of society labels as perverted, and to be in the middle of it and seen as nothing but a dirty old man hurts a lot.
This could be a very perplexing type of relationship if the male is the same age as the females’ mother - forty-something. AND if he has kids who are of the same age bracket of the young woman he has fell in love with - twenty-something. Will there be a problem establishing respect for both parties?
Apparently, dysfunctionality will embrace these cross-families before a mutual understanding or true love ever blossoms - if it blossoms?
Age and the thoughts of aging would have to be removed from the scenario to maintain Daddy’s love for his little girl and Hubby’s love for his beautiful wife who is three years older!
Choices.
I know a man 53 years old that now has a baby with a twenty something girl. He also has a daughter from a previous marriage whom he referred to as his little pumpkin. I wonder how his daughter is getting along with daddy’s girlfriend or is there competition between them.
Unfortunately, many of the guys criticizing women here are teetering on the edge. Hugo himself is teetering because his response is as a authoritarian as I would have anticipated. Goes to show….
Everyone misses the point…want to avoid the problem? Answer: don’t screw around. The ‘I am a responsible sex fiend’ which seems to emanate from some guys’ comments is ridiculous. Avoid the problem by avoiding the action. Let the females (”women” is a sociological term and I don’t know if it applies here) say what they will, but that doesn’t mean that you–guys–have to be a party to the discussion. In other words, keep control of “it” and you don’t have the problem, you are party to the discussion, and you live happily. You have as much a choice of whom to have sex with as does she. Just because she’s a consenting adult doesn’t mean that you have to do “it.”
I’m male (and a man), but in my opinion…when it comes to sex, most human males and females are foolish in their choices.
I am a 31 year old woman and dating a man who is 44 he is the best lover i have ever had, and is very attentive, loving and considerate. Our sex life is awesome, i think maybe it is time to settle down, as i have lived a rather full life in my twenties, travelled, educated myself, etc, and had a 10 year relationship. He has been married before and has been divorced for 10 years, so he knows how to be in a relationship. He has been asking me to marry him and i am seriously considering his proposal.
There is one concern though, my dad who i has always been an authority figure in my life (i’ve given him this power)has accepted this relationship, however i become very nervous when my boyfriend is affectionate with me in front of my father. As a child, my father always treated me like more of a son then a daughter, though as an adult woman he has shown me the utmost respect Do i have father issues?
RLC–
“Girls” being treated like sons (and sons not being embraced into dad’s world) is very common these days. I suspect you don’t know how to be a “girl” around dad because, from a behavioral standpoint, the rewards have always come attached to you and dad being in a “father/son” relationship. Because of this, subconsciously you feel like you are betraying the sociological role that he established for your relationship with him.
“The originol blog seemed to be making the point that the potential for abuse however comes from the very fact that their is an age differance. Whilst this a potential factor which would allow abuse, it doesnt mean that abuse has to happen”
I dsagree, fish. It seems to me that an older man can’t help being an older man. By that I mean he’s been down the road of life a long way ahead of his young female partner. Along that road he’s added many psychological, social, financial, emotional, sexual and god knows what other weapons to his arsenal. He can’t help using these weapons. He can’t “become 18 ” when he’s dealing with her, no matter what sort of romantic smoke he’s blowing up his own arse, e.g. “She makes me feel young again, she’s so mature for her years” etc. The relationship can’t be anything other than manipulative, even if the older man is not conscious of his manipulation. I agree there may be extremely rare cases where these relationships turn out to be healthy (or, at least as unhealthy as anyone else’s), but as far as I can see they seem to be based mostly in middle aged male narcissism coupled with teenage female vulnerability, a sordid feedback loop at best.
Being Forty-mmbpff myself, and having just spend the better part of two weeks running men half my age into the ground, I’m not a big believer in the age gap. The maturity gap is another thing, but while there is a correlation between that and age, it is not causative.
As for anything else - Below 18 - always wrong. Male of female.
Subordinate/supervisor roles, or student/mentor - always wrong. Male or female.
Things are so much easier once you decide to just find core principles and not overcomplicate them by finding “nuances” where they can be excused if your ox is being gored.
i just happened upon your website a few days ago, and i don’t know when i’ve ever read an online journal where i’ve said “yes!” as often, or felt as good; you sir, are a breath of fresh air- and i had to stop in to thank you.
thanks for all you do for youth (for ALL of us) by example and with good humor. thanks for being firm when it’s called for, and for speaking out with views and values i hardly ever hear anymore: thanks for rescuing the soft little creatures of ALL TYPES- and just for being here.
this space you’ve created is a thoroughly marvelous place to visit; i am a new fan, but a stalwart one.
karen corcoran dabkowski
Thank YOU, Karen — and double bonus points for writing so nicely under your real name!
Does love really care about age? I´m 59, she is 29. We seem to love each other, but she worries about what her friends think. And that hurts our relationship. There are only three words that should matter in any relationship, whether it be between people, your dog, your car or anything… Love, Devotion, and Surrender. I wish you all luck in finding it.
If you read the book the movie is based on (”Off Magazine Street by Ronald Everett Capps), you will see that most of the plot for “A Love Song for Bobby Long” was added at the screenwriting stage, including the whole part about Pursey being ‘innocent’ (and Bobby being her father, and Lorraine being a singer etc etc etc) so it is pretty much a hollywood creation despite it’s origin in a novel, with all it’s moral lessons inserted.
On your topic, if you think that young girls are need to be treated differently by older men, aren’t you effectively saying that you don’t feel 18-20 year old women should be considered by society to be adults? If they are adults, then they should be free to date and be dated, in the adult age range. In that case, why should a man, be he 20 or 50 treat these women as anything but adults? Sexual attraction happens between adults and it is legal, right and natural.
You seem to view this age group in women as one that needs to be protected, do you feel about boys the same age? Would it be the same problem for an older woman to feel sexually attracted to a 19 yr old boy for you as the inverse scenario is? Your article seems to be a plea for a move to the age of 21 as the age of consent.
What bothers me is that there seems to be a stigma attached to the age group in question here. Society has no problem with them having sex among themselves (18-20 yr old boys and girls) and accordingly, refer to them as adults, able to make decisions and stand for crimes. BUT, if this person decides to have sex outside their age group, we view it with disdain, more disdain accorded the farther out of the age group the party in question is (we’d be a little uncomfortable with a 29 yr old dating a 19 yr old but a lot more with a 49 year old).
If they’re adults, then it’s game on and they can do what they like according to their own decisions, they have just as much right to be duped by someone with less than honorable intentions as any adult does. The state offers me as an adult zero protection from harm in society, why should other adults be offered more? No one thought about all this in the mad rush to make youths into adults for the sole purpose of selling products to them did they?
Daz, adulthood is not an either/or. Legally, turning 18 conveys a whole plethora of rights. But actual maturity is a process that is independent of the acquisition of legal agency. It’s absurd to claim that an 18 year-old is as equipped for a sexual relationship with a 40 year-old as he is with her. What I object to is asymmetry.
Sexual attraction happens between adults and it is legal, right and natural.
You kinda gave yourself away with the last two there. “Legal” is not a synonym for “right” or, for that matter, “natural.” (It’s natural for somebody to decide to take things they want, even if they belong to you, but I doubt you would agree it should therefore be legal for me to steal your car.)
And you’re quite mistaken if you think the government offers you “zero protection from harm”, unless you’ve actually found and moved to that elusive Libertarian utopia.
The notion that “legal” and “right” should be synonyms is actually one of my pet peeves on sexual matters; it either leads people to advocate a government which is way more of a busybody than it properly ought to be in the bedroom (because, darn it, everything that’s wrong has got to be made illegal), or else an incredibly weak sexual morality where you don’t even apply ordinary interpersonal ethics (such as honesty, integrity, taking responsibility for your actions, doing unto others as you would have done unto you), but simply assume all’s fair that’s legal.
Your example makes no sense Hugo. It’s been wrong and unnatural to take what isn’t yours since the invention of private property so where do you get the notion that stealing is natural? My example stated that it is right, legal and natural for adults to fall in love, all supported by society now and for a while now.
And I’m curious to what protection the government offers me relationship wise. Is there somehow they can stop my heart being broken? Can they tell me if the next person I date is right for me? Exactly what would protect me from a smooth sexual predator that says all the things I want to hear then takes advantage? You seemed to think I was implying protection from harm a la the police but I was talking about protection from harm emotionally and after the fact help is not protection any more than abortion is a contraceptive.
It’s been wrong and unnatural to take what isn’t yours since the invention of private property so where do you get the notion that stealing is natural?
It hasn’t ever been both wrong and unnatural to take what isn’t yours. Wrong, yes. Unnatural, no. It’s very common for people to steal. It’s even more common for people to want to steal, and restrain themselves from doing so. That doesn’t sound unnatural to me. Our nature isn’t especially thoroughly good and moral.
My example stated that it is right, legal and natural for adults to fall in love, all supported by society now and for a while now.
In general, yes, it’s ethically acceptable for adults to fall in love, legal for them to do so, natural for them to do so, and supported by society for them to do so. But the boundaries of those four things aren’t identical.
It’s natural for many adults to also fall in love with people slightly under the legal age of consent (you don’t have to be a pedophile to want to have sex with a seventeen-year-old in a state where the age of consent is 18). It’s illegal and unethical for them to act on these feelings.
It’s legal, natural, and ethical for gay people to fall in love with people of their own sex, but it isn’t exactly altogether supported by society.
A plushy fetish comes naturally to rather fewer people than wanting to have sex with a seventeen-year-old (where the age of consent is higher), but it’s legal to indulge and does no harm, and can fairly be called ethical.
It’s legal and natural to fall in love with an 18-year-old, when you’re much older. Whether it’s ethical to act on it depends on circumstances. Questions about when such relationships are likely to be positive, and when their effects are likely to be harmful, aren’t settled by simply noting that the thing is natural and legal.
Hey… I got a FABO idea!!! FOR THOSE WHO WANT TO BASH OLDER MEN THAT ARE WITH YOUNGER GURLS, OR VICE VERSA EVEN. It is not LEGALLY, or even BIBLICALLY wrong for 2 CONSENTING people of ANY AGE to get together. Regardless, or ANYONES studies, views, BIASED opinions, or VICTOMIZATION POLLS… all that matters is that 2 LEGAL ADULTS choose to be together. It doesn’t even matter if you believe they are mature enough, or what their motives are for doing it. It is EVERY INDIVIDUALS RIGHT, to MAKE MISTAKES that they learn from. It is THEIR LIVES. Why don’t you try GETTING A LIFE OF YOUR OWN, and leaving people alone to live THEIR LIVES, as the CONSTITUTION that people FOUGHT, and DIED to have says they can? People like you are the reason that we are losing our rights. If you don’t like something… DON’T DO IT, but shut up already with all your WELL WORDED, backed up by the facts you CHOOSE TO SEE “BS”. I was married at 23 to a woman 19 years older than me. We had a great relationship for many years. It ended… not becuase of AGE, but just like any marriage can end, by mistakes made by us both, and not putting enough effort into righting things. We are even now still friends though. I am a God fearing person, but would not feel guilty MARRYING, or SLEEPING WITH a woman 20 years, or even more OLDER, or YOUNGER than me. You make young women out to be sexual victims for having a relationship, and/or sex… because the partner is older? That is both absurd, and not factual at all. I don’t know where you grew up at “PERHAPS A MONESTARY?”, but MOST teens even… are MORE SEXUALLY ACTIVE, than their older counterparts. I had more sex from 14 to about 27… than I’ll have the rest of my life probably. All that matters is that to people love, desire, or agree to be together. It isn’t ANYONE ELSES BUSINESS what they choose to do mutually. There is a term used BROADLY for people like you… who want to MIND EVERYBODY ELSES BUSINESS FOR THEM, and try to MAKE everyone else FEEL AS THEY DO, with their little supposed FACTUAL STUDIES, and OVEREXAGGERATED DOCUMENTATION to prove it. They are called PROFESSIONAL IDIOTS… and the name suits them. I don’t care what anyone does, as long as it isn’t hurting others, or illegal, or intruding on my personal rights… the way some of you people want to do so badly. I wish you folks had a 19 y/o daughter. I’d ask her out… just for spite, and challenge you to find one thing legally, or biblically wrong with it, or say anything to me about it even. It would be up to your 19 year old ADULT daughter to say yes, or no. Not parents, teachers, the government, or anyone else for that matter. They can share their opinions with her, but SHE IS AN ADULT, it is HER DECISION to make. You speak of an older man looking at a young woman as a sex objest only? How about an older adult, looking at a younger adult woman as a brainless child, with no ability to reason, or make decisions on her own. YOU HYPOCRITICAL people you. Is your attitude, or treatment of this young woman… any less degrading, or damaging to her than theirs? I look at each person, as the unique person they are. I don’t care if they are 18, or 81, and lets get real here. In all honesty… SOMETHING attracted you to SOMEONE to ever start a relationship. Very few people see a man, or woman walking down the street, and say OMG… their MIND is so beautiful!!! I’ll just bet they got a cheerio personality to!!! You folk would be funny… except people like you eventually gather enough other PEOPLE LIKE YOU together to steal yet another God given, and constitutionally approved right from us. Go buy an island, and create your own PERFECTLY CONTROLLED… POLITICALLY CORRECT, BRAINWASHED little world. You can have your own little inquisition even, like Ferdinand and Isabella did, back in 1478… during the Spanish inquisition. They knew what was best for everyone else to. Why does so many people want to try to tell EVERYONE else in the world… HOW THEY SHOULD LIVE, and WHAT THEY CAN DO? You want to help these poor girls? Did it ever occurr to you that maybe THEY DON’T WANT, OR NEED YOUR HELP? I wasn’t traumitized, or emotionally degraded by making love to an older woman… and I wanted her attentions, the same as I would want any other womans. It wasn’t a power thing, or security at all. BTW… Why aren’t the younger males victim to the perverted old women? Going along your way of thinking of course? Or maybe your selective on who is a victim, and who you bash???? I hope I made you folk mad that choose to sit in judgement on other individuals, and what they should, and should not do. I don’t want, or need people like you liking me, or as friends. To me, your nothing but well worded communist, trying to abolish even more of my rights. To those that aren’t trying to make a wrongful issue out of this subject. I apologize… This letter isn’t for you. I was recently asked out on a date, by a woman over half my age younger. I am not drooling, or pasting her panties on the wall. I am just nervous, because I am afraid I may appear too narrow minded, or old fashioned to her. I see now that compared to many here. I am a liberal wonder!! sigh… While I do not see it as wrong. I have never dated anyone younger than me, and was browsing to find couples who had a vast age difference “the woman being younger”, that shared online, and see how it worked out for them. I didn’t expect such blatant OLDER MALE BASHING, such strong assumtions that young women were unable to fend for themselves, or such a narrow minded 1 sided view on the subjest by so many. Oh, BTW… she said I had a cute butt! So much for the poor young victim that needs help… lol I think kissing pets on the mouth, and reusing dishes they ate out of for humans after they are washed is disgusting… but I don’t condem, or try to make anyone that does it not allowed to do it… IT IS THEIR RIGHT. No offense to everyone else. I rarely speak out at all, but OMG… I am so sick of junk like this… I need to move to Russia. They have more rights now, than Americans do. :rolling eyes:
Hello? Johnny? Did you read the couple of comments just above yours? The ones saying that “legal” and “moral” aren’t the same thing?
When, oh when, will people on the Internet get the clue that talking about whether something’s a good idea isn’t the same thing as trying to outlaw it? And that having the right to do something isn’t the same thing as having the right to have no one criticize you for it?
Honestly, I don’t even have a big problem with older man/younger woman relationships as such (provided no one’s the other person’s boss or teacher or something), just with the arguments like yours that say no one should be allowed to criticize them.
When, oh when, will people on the Internet get the clue that talking about whether something’s a good idea isn’t the same thing as trying to outlaw it? And that having the right to do something isn’t the same thing as having the right to have no one criticize you for it?
My emphasis - you can only really judge relationships individually; I think Johnny’s wrath might be toward the generalisations thrown around here. If you disagree that a relationship with an age gap is “not a good idea”, you’re already generalising. You cannot generalise about two individuals and how they get on in their relationship. Every relationship is unique.
If you disagree that a relationship with an age gap is “not a good idea”
….should read : If you think that a relationship with an age gap is “not a good idea”
From 11 years experience,I being 21 at the given time and he being 53.
Do the math.
He has never asked me to mary him. We have children from previous relationships.We have a 3 yr. old together. He was married 18 yrs. first time and 8 the second go round.
I have never married not because I chose not , I just have not been asked.
It is not my placed to ask. Man has to understand I came from old school.
I am a hateful person. This came with all he has put me through. I was once quite and let him hit on me boy, did that change with 911 and some jail time. I did not call them so he would go to jail but to get him some anger managenent. But the system fails us all. So don’t think one minute to ask the Judge to help he blows you off and makes the other pay a fine.
My better half is hatefull to me from time to time. He does try to do well for us. Yet, I hear about it later.
I do desire a finer house a new van but those are desires not necessities at this time. I am afraid to ask of anything from anyone.
I love him dearly but sometimes I want to give up and move on. He has always let his son(now 18) tell lies on me and try to let him run over me but I don’t let him.
It is true that older men try to be your boss but he don’t get by with it.
Age was never an issue in my side of the family. Mother was 14 dad was 30. Grand father was 50 step-grandmother was 30’s. I have always be educated coming from older parents and grandparents.
I have always desired to be around older people. People I know that are my age seem lost.
Some day I plan to write many books to try and give direction to others so that they may not take the path we took because we had no map.
Life is like needles, thread and material they may be little things but if you take the three and work them to gether you can make something awsome.
Something of great worth that will carry on for many years to come.
To God be the glory,
Thank you,
W,JD
Exactly. I was speaking primarily of the GENERALIZATIONS. Every relationship, IS VERY DIFFERENT. TY :)
Hey, not wrath intended. I just was a lil miffed at being kinda made 2 feel like a pervert, or a manipulator by many peoples words, when SHE, is AGGRESSIVELY wanting me to try dating her… just becuase I am an older male, instead of an older woman in the same situation? Sorry about the wrath sounding thing. heh :oX
Johnny, I hear you. I think a lot of people fall into the trap of generalising when discussing the age-gap in relationships; they say things like “well, I saw one relationship that didn’t work out, therefore I think the age-gap is bad”, or simply they think the older person is taking advantage of the younger person (hello? So when exactly to you become an adult?) - or it just doesn’t gell with their political ideology very well (i.e. feminism).
daz, it would help if you stuck to your original comments instead of going back and pretending you said something different.
just becuase I am an older male, instead of an older woman in the same situation?
Who said that it’s OK for older women to date younger men but not vice versa?
Hugo said:
Daz, adulthood is not an either/or. Legally, turning 18 conveys a whole plethora of rights. But actual maturity is a process that is independent of the acquisition of legal agency. It’s absurd to claim that an 18 year-old is as equipped for a sexual relationship with a 40 year-old as he is with her. What I object to is asymmetry.
This is a complex issue, but I would also point out that maturity, as a process, also has something to do with life experience - good and bad. From the point of view of the younger person, there needs to be a balance between protection and being allowed to make ‘mistakes’, whatever your definition of mistake is. I’ve had a relationship with a much older man before (I was 19, he was 46) and though some might characterise it as a mistake (as in, we’re not together any more), I would not: the experience has contributed to the person I am now.
You know I’m realy glad I found this topic. I myself am 22 years old and well I konda like older men. with kinda I mean fictonal characters. for example Lucius Malfoy (portrayed by Jason isaacs) or Jack sparrow (Johnny depp), I must say I both like them in other movies and in real life (good actors), and many others charcters. They just make me feel all “lovey dovey” . I never had a boy friend, but I have been in love. The first time I was realy in love was with my english teacher at school (I’m dutch by the way). The thing I regret most is that my friends found out about it. after a few weeks the entire school knew about it including some if not all my teachers. well at the end of the year he told us he found a new job and realy I’m still wondering if he wouldn’t have left if I had never tell anyone about it.
Anyway after reading this I know that I might have been realy in love or that I just wanted his afection. At that time I was 16 and not even thinking about sex (I’m kinda shy about that) I just wanted him to give me attention. Currently I’m watching NCIS and I get the “lovey dovey” seeing special agent gibbs, but more importantly the relation Gibbs and Abby have in the series. He’s like a father figure to her and i wish I could be “the Abby person”
I just hate it that I cant fall in love with “a normal guy” but in my eyes all boys of my age are just to imature, only thinking about sex and partying. I did fall in love with someone just a bit older than me but he was alraydy in love with somone else.
It seems that I’m just gonna have to wait a bit longer before I find someone. Heh if only I wasn’t that picky and went out some more, but going out isn’t me, I just dont like and feel comfortable when going out.
-xxx- Jacky
ps. I’m realy glad I could get this of my chest.
Jacky, thanks; your poignant comment reminds me of just how much damage older men often do when we mistake the longing to be validated and nurtured and affirmed for frank sexual desire.
woman embodies the mystery of ‘desire’, it is that desire that awakens one as a man, and indeed, distinguishes libidinous from social, (with acknowledgement to all the nuances that such generalisations incur.) In a world in which anything is possible- be it even imaginary, to rationalise ones desire is both absurd and part of our own absurdity.
We have rules for (a) reason- this is the contract, maintained or not, that one lives with amongst others. The question here is what do we do if desire places the desired object and resulting relations at odds with ‘approval’ of the group, ie; interracial, ageist, economical, etc, etc - depending on the prejudice of that particular group (common sense) . Ideally, if the libidinal is to become social in the form of marriage then it is this common sense which prevails for no other reason than to perpetuate its own prejudice- a prejudice biased to support procreation.
What a wonderful read this was. I wish I had known more men like you when I was younger. I was 10 the first time I was approached in a sexual way, by an older cousin. I was “running” (ok walking) away constantly, and he just keeped on following me no matter where I went. I’m almost 38 and I can still recall the feelings. And I would venture that I still am frighten when a man is direct in his interest in me. My instinct is to run, still today. (Thank you for helping me see this)
I see my male friends look at young women and how they behave with them. It’s difficult to imagine that men my age just don’t get it. Many, unfortunatly, are centerred on their pleasure, their desires, and have no desire to look at the consequences of their actions, on the legacy of hurt they leave behind.
I feel you do a great deal of good for the image of men. You have matured behond the teenager into a man. We don’t see that very much these days.
Thank you for all those young woman you’ve helped.
Thanks so much, Sonia.
Wow, all i can is I’m blown away. This is the first time I have ever heard someone voice the fact that some younger women do need older men not as a brother, father or lover but as someone to respect them. For years now Ive felt really weird about this whole issue becase when i was 15 a family friend, who was 50-something, who i saw as an ‘uncle’ started making passes (some subtle, some not so) at me and I had known him all my life and i did love him as an uncle, nothing more then that and i thought he did care about me in a totally asexual way but anyways when i was 18 he kissed and groped me which I know doesnt sound that bad or mentally scarring at all, but for some reason I just cant stop obsessively thinking about it. So when you wrote that when this happens to younger girls it can leave an emotional impact, well i guess it made me feel like less of a freak, thankyou so much for that, im really grateful, i really am.
when i was 18 he kissed and groped me which I know doesnt sound that bad or mentally scarring at all,
The fact that I know you aren’t kidding makes me want to cry. Sexual assault is a big deal, okay? Sexual assault is that bad. It is very bad. It absolutely is mentally scarring a lot of the time. It would be bad no matter how old you were, and it would be bad if it came from a perfect stranger, but the fact that you were so young, that he was someone you knew, who you had reason to trust, who was the next thing to a member of the family, every one of those things makes it worse. Your trust was abused. You were betrayed.
If minimizing or denying the nastiness of it helps you get over it, that’s fine (I’m serious about this; sometimes that does help). But don’t ever let anybody suggest to you that it wasn’t that bad. Anyone who dares to tell you that because he didn’t carry it as far as rape or because you weren’t a child, somehow it’s not a big deal, is lying. You are the only one who gets to determine how bad it was or how much it affected you. He did something wrong and cruel to you — he is the freak, not you.
Thankyou very much sophonisba, I mean the situation was more complicated then i sort of made it out to be, i think wat i find difficult is how do u now when something is exua abuse or not i know this sounds soo strange and vaguely stupid but i jus dont know whether it was abuse or whether he was just confused. I find it hard to emotionally let go because ive known him all my life, he held me when i was five days old, i think part of the reason y i hav issues with this is that i hate not understanding something and i hate the fact that he jus wanted me for sex, sounds really pathetic and it is but i am in complete denial about that or when at times i do convince myself that for him all he wanted was sex i fall into depression. Wow i rlly must come across as pathetic and sad. But nyways thanks sophonisba!
N, it’s not stupid or pathetic to be confused about how to feel when someone you care about or even love turns around and does something like this to you. And just because he did this nasty, selfish, thoughtless thing to you doesn’t mean he never cared about you as a person, he probably did and maybe he still does — but him caring about you doesn’t make what he did any better.
If the words “abuse” or “assault” make you uncomfortable or depressed, don’t use them. What’s important isn’t what you call it, what’s important is that this thing he did made you unhappy, hurt, and depressed. You don’t need to justify that. In some ways it’s complicated, but in some ways it’s really simple. With the relationship that the two of you had, he shouldn’t have done it. Period.
If you’re still in contact with him, and it really bothers you not to understand what he did, you could just tell him that: say (or write), What you did might have felt good to you, but it felt wrong and upsetting to me. I trusted you and loved you like an uncle, and you hurt me, and I don’t understand why you did it. It wasn’t what I wanted. If he truly was confused, he’ll feel terrible, and he’ll tell you he’s sorry and will never do it again. If he tries to justify it or turn it around on you or make excuses — well, at least you’ll know.
Cheers sophonisba, yeah the contact thing is weird because he is basically my dads best friend they hav known each other something like 26 years, and of course my parents dont know about the stuff that happened, but no in short there is very little contact between us, it all depends on when my parents see him next, and what a barrel of laughs that will be, i have tried to talk to him before about it and after one, er shall we say, incident i told him never to do it again and he apologised and said he never ever meant for me to see it that way and that he had known me since i was a baby so would never see me that way, i beleived him and forgave him er but then that turned out to be a complete lie, o well guess leopards never change their spots! thanks for the help by the way, very much indebted! O and by the way for anyone who is in a fairly similar boat to me, have more respect for yourself then i do and do the sensible thing of cutting them out of your life cos it jus creates more hurt if u dont.
My husband was 59 years old when he started a relationship with an 18 year old girl at work. Someone told me that he was taking her to functions and taking her home in his car etc. I asked him to fire her and he said he could not because she was his best worker and he said that he was not having an affar with her. Over a period of 10 years I noticed many things, lunch times the office would be locked, them inside, he became abrubt and unkind to me, hardly ever spoke to me, when I went to his office she was openly flirting, brushing her boobs against his arms, flickering her eyelids, or he would remark in front of me to her: “oh you look sexy today”. I went his office to give him a wedding anniversary card and I saw the two of them together at a nearby restaurant having lunch together. There were so many incidents over the years and I thought that I was just imagining things and that there was something wrong with me, seeing things into situations that was not true. After ten years of this, I checked the phone bill, found calls of 45 mins to her cell. Then I knew.
Stumbled upon this site, as I was researching the older man/younger woman relationship. As I am 48 and have recently found myself smitten by a 22 year old friend, I wanted to know what people think about it. Mind you, she likes spending time with me, but has shown no romantic interest, so I keep my feelings to myself - as I see it, romantic feelings are only a portion of the Big Picture, which is that I really like her, enjoy our conversations (I’m more of a listener than a talker), like her energy (spiritually) and humour. Unless she says something directly, or asks me, I won’t say anything. I don’t FEEL the age gap, but I do think about it. When I was about her age, and in college, I dated several women in their 40’s (I was looking for more maturity - I was “born old”); but, none were more than 20 years older, and these relationships didn’t work out. (My ex-wife is 11 years older). And I do also worry, because I do have a number of “kids”, as I call them, younger people, many of them women, who look to me as a father-figure or elder (including a 30 year old who’s been living with me for months because of difficulty with getting and keeping a job, who at one time was hit on by a father-figure - I myself was hit on as a teenager by a father-figure, so I know that pain).
Anyway, this thread of conversation is quite helpful.
You touched upon many interesting issues. I myself can’t count the number of times I’ve been hit on by older men. One incident even involved a man who was probably 30 years older than I was telling me “how rich he was” and literally trying to buy me, as if I were some permanent call girl.
I’m a 5′10″ blonde, very slender, Oxford graduate, but all of these approaches made me very introverted and uncomfortable around men. Frankly, they also made me wonder if all men over 30 weren’t unbalanced.
In general, most of the women I know–Ivy educated and financially independent– say they are not physically attracted to older men. However, I think that the media often tries to present different images and the result is that women are often literally harassed by men they have no interest in. My guess, too, is that many women are really traumatized by this.
Faust, if you take the age issue out of it, the issue is the same: you have a female friend in whom you’re romantically interested, but she doesn’t reciprocate that interest. You probably will ‘feel’ that age gap more as you spend time around her.
Im sorry but all I see is age bashing. I feel that age doesnt matter. Im 23 but all my life i felt 10years older. I was close to my 30year old sister and her friends so thats what made me feel older than i am. I met my 43 finoci by accident i was dating a 25 year old at that time. But once we started talking I couldnt believe how much we have incommon. 92 to be exact. I couldnt think of how many things i have with the 25year old. So when my 43 year old finoci started dating it felt so right. it still feels so right. And I know he DOESNT think of me as just sexual. he loves me for me and my mind and my soul. So not every older male that “hooks” up with a younger female (now under the age of 18 is so wrong) the males are not thinking “hey let me just use her for sex” most of them find a younger female that does have a mature mentality like me.
I don’t see why everyone here seems to agree that a man in an age difference relationship is necessarily seeking to father, posses, or sexually objectify the young woman he’s involved with. I’ve been dating a man 18 years my senior, a former co-worker, for over a year now. He’s admitted that my physical appearance is about 45% of what attracts him to me, but isn’t physical appearance the primary attracting factor for nearly every man? As writers - myself a screenwriter and himself a freelance journalist - we discus our work and our ideas on an equal ground. I usually even have more input and influence on his pieces than him on mine. Of course, discussing his life experiences and lessons learned has lead me to quite a few “aha” moments. Yet I just as readily share my philosophy and analysis of my life experiences in order to help him through his issues and interpersonal obstacles. I’m on good terms with his family and he with mine. My father in particular thinks he’s a great guy and is very supportive. We visit his grandmother nearly every weekend. We babysit for his nieces and nephews. If you never knew how old we were I’m sure you would all be very happy for us.
What attracts me to him? His full-grown physicality? Sure. Our ease in communicating with one another. The way we ride the same “wavelength” in ideas and humor. Our shared interests in film, anthropology, and narrative non-fiction. His heart and sensitivity. His deep sense of caring for the people in his life. His tenderness for me. His intellect and talents. His passion for living and appreciation of nature. There isn’t much of a gap in our financial situation - thanks to the help of my parents. He doesn’t shower me with gifts or treats any moreso than guys in my age group have done in the past.
Knowing other girls my age, I know it would be impossible for many of them to “hold their ground” intellectually and emotionally in a relationship with an older man. Their priorities and worldviews fluctuate constantly and they still feel like they’re safely isolated from the responsibilities and personal accountability that people a decade older than them are forced to assume. As long as their parents and other “authority figures” around them continue to allow them to behave like children - “just girls” - they’re happy to keep doing so. But why should I have to face the assumption that I’m choosing to be that kind of person every time someone new finds out how young I am and how old he is?
What more do you people want? What proof do you need that our relationship is built on just as many elements to last as you’d expect from a same-age couple? How many exceptions to the “rule” in order to be granted a pardon? From as far as I can see, the only thing due to age difference that will continue to be an obstacle in our relationship are all of the uncomfortable reactions I get when people pry two numbers out of me. 20 and 38.