Hugo is posting a lot today.
My fiancee and I did make it out of the house this past weekend, despite the rain and our mutual flu affliction. We went to see A Love Song for Bobby Long starring Scarlett Johansson and John Travolta. It was a passable film if not a deeply memorable one, and the two leads were quite fine. (I do want the soundtrack.)
Johansson’s character, "Pursey", is 18 and lovely. Travolta plays the title character, a 50ish alcoholic former English professor prone to quoting George Eliot and making odious sexual remarks to Pursey. At one point,following a particularly obscene comment, Pursey turns to Bobby in hurt and frustration and cries out "But I’m just a girl." It’s the line that lingered for me. Pursey is legally an adult, and the film makes clear she is not sexually unexperienced — but the plain power of that one line drove home for me the reality we often choose to ignore, that those who appear outwardly fully adult may still be in need of our care and protection.
I thought about this just now as I read this post by Sofia at Volsunga. Among other things, she touches on issues of older men dating younger women, and I thought I’d add some musings. No, there will be no personal disclosures in this post. All I will say is that I can say in all honesty that today my private life matches my public pronouncements on this issue, and to God be the glory for that.
I don’t think I need to defend the proposition that we live in a culture that sexualizes and objectifies young women starting very early in life. I work with junior high and high school age girls in my church youth group, and am well aware that a substantial number of them struggle with the overwhelming pressure to be alluring, to be sexy, to be powerful. In frank group discussions, we’ve touched on these pressures many times over the years. I’ve had countless similar (if slightly more sophisticated) discussions in classes with my students at PCC.
I see a great many young women eager for attention and validation from older men. By "young", I mean both underage girls and college-aged women. (What I mean by "older" depends on the age of the girl who is the subject of the conversation. 20 is an "older man" for a 16 year-old; 30, or even 40, might be an older man for a 21 year-old.) For all of the progress our culture has made on some issues, it is truly remarkable how the older man/younger woman ideal has persisted. Though there remains considerable disagreement about how old might be "too old" and how young might be "too young" (especially given legal considerations), most folks seem quite prepared to accept these relationships not only as normal, but perhaps even ideal.
Now, I don’t think that significant age gaps in relationships are always a problem, but I do think that they are far more problematic than we are willing to let on. When we are talking about men over, say, 27 and women under 21, they are almost invariably a very poor idea.
I’ve often written about how much I enjoy working with young men and adolesecent boys. I’ve talked about the importance of male role models, and about how crucial it is that older men take an active interest in the emotional and spiritual development of young men, not just their athletic and intellectual achievements. I love "my guys". But I also think it’s equally vital that adult men work with adolescent girls and young women. I’m convinced that young girls badly need the presence of loving older men who are not parents or relatives, but who are still fundamentally safe.
I’ve heard, over and over again, how shocking and upsetting it is the first time a young girl realizes that an older man is sexually attracted to her. The first catcall, the first leer, the first whistle, the first inappropriate remark — these are seldom forgotten, and they leave deep and enduring wounds. (The younger the girl and the older the predator, the deeper the scar, it seems.) After these early experiences, by the time they arrive at college, many young women expect to be seen as objects of desire by men in their thirties, forties, and perhaps beyond. Young women employ different strategies to cope with this onslaught of attention. Some hide from it, making a conscious effort to deemphasize their sexuality, to appear less desirable. Others, more troublingly, see it as an opportunity to get much-wanted validation and attention.
In my work, it is absolutely critical that I never, ever, respond to the sexuality of the young women with whom I interact. This has nothing to do with preserving my job, and everything to do with the precious integrity of my work on gender issues. Now, at the risk of the accusation of narcissism, I will share that I do get plenty of female students who flirt with me, a few quite brazenly. (My colleagues tell me it will happen less after I turn 40.) I don’t let it go to my head much, because I understand that it’s not Hugo they really want. At the risk of sounding paternalistic, what they really want is to be noticed, to be seen, to be validated as good and worthy and interesting individuals. And they believe — with good reason in most cases — that using their sexuality is hands down the best (if not the only way) to get that attention that they rightly want.
If I were to flirt back, or if I were to date a student, I am convinced I would send a devastating message about what older men "really" want. Young women need older men in their lives who will respect and care about them, who aren’t their fathers or brothers but who aren’t prospective lovers, either. They need to know that they bring more to the table than their sexuality. They need to be seen as complete human beings. Paradoxically, seeing young women as complete human beings means that in actions, words, and yes, even in thought, older men cannot see them as objects of sexual desire. That doesn’t mean that we (older guys) shouldn’t acknowledge that younger women are sexual creatures. But we must (and the burden is on us alone here, fellas) love them with radical unselfishness,and that requires that we ourselves always refrain from sexualizing them. We need to see them as Pursey wanted to be seen.
When I first started teaching, I wanted to be admired. The older I get, I am happy to report, the less I worry about that. I do still do care what my college students (and my youth group kids) think of me. I don’t care all that much if they think I’m brilliant or eloquent or handsome (though, oh, one likes to hear that sort of flattery). But there is something I do care very much about. I want all of the young people I work with, be they 14, 18, or 21, to think I’m safe. The longer I do this work, the more that becomes my goal. I want my kids to know I love them for who they are, I want my students to know I respect and honor their minds and their spirits, not their bodies.
I will not sit in judgment of others’ relationships, save those that are obviously exploitative. Clearly, not all young women are equally mature at the same chronological age. But I will say that older men do well to see younger women as full human beings rather than objects of desire. If more of us would take small steps to make the younger women around us feel both seen and safe, our culture would be a damn sight better off.
As a very young woman in a wonderful, years-long relationship with a monumental age gap (it spans a generation; yes, it has always been “legal”), and having undergone a million personal attacks from outside observers, my gut instinct is to defend the older man/younger woman phenomenon as “not really mattering.” I realize, however, from many other younger women’s experience, that it does matter more often than not.
Yes, it matters in terms of one’s general position in life — a girl my age is very often straight out of high school and invariably living at home, babysitting every other weekend and only knowing life within her family. Yes, it matters in terms of “unspoken” agreements of dependence — all too often, the older man’s financial stability is used as a crutch, means of support, or a way of ’spoiling’ the younger. But most of all, it matters in terms of the older man’s level of accountability! (That semester sure drove it in — I’m using real HugoWordsâ„¢ here!) A much older man could easily lust after a younger woman and pursue only her. What’s essential is that he pursue a close relationship with her family and friends as well. (Yes, this means meet-the-parents!) He needs full participation in her entire life — as a companion and best friend, not father — and vice versa.
If either person is unwilling to meld their extended life into the relationship, that’s not just indicative of unwillingness to commit — it could indicate a total lack of relatability. (Your textbook middle-aged stock broker might not be entirely excited about hanging out with a bunch of giddy 19-year-old girls at the mall!)
Why must older men who are with younger women fail to see them “as full human beings rather than objects of desire”? For any relationship to be effective, surely both factors must play a part. What’s essential is an investment into each other’s lives, not just to each other.
Such an interesting post Hugo. I was surrounded my whole childhood by tons of ’safe’ men, at church, in my small town and neighborhood. I never really thought about it however, or how that experience formed me.
I do remember clearly the first time a very much older man, a teacher, who I considered safe out of long habit, made a pass at me and how betrayed I felt by it. It came so out of left-field for me, shocked me, hurt me.
I never really considered that for so many young women this sexualization is the rule rather than the exception.
Thanks Hugo, once again your blog blows my mind.
okay, two directions to go for me”
1. Recently a good friend of mine had a good friend of hers indicted for an inappropriate relationship with a minor. What I found so alarming was the stance that both my friend and my own mother took, which ran like this : “but you don’t know what 16 year-olds do these days.” Both of these women saw enough responsibility on the adolescent’s part to preserve the man from civil punishment- though he was 24 at the time and a church-aquaintance. I see total culpability on the part of the adult in every situation. However, I think that part of our failure as adults lies in the wide-spread acceptance of the blatant sexualization of minors: B. Spears and those sad little Olsen twins come to mind readily. It seems both hypocritical and dangerous to expect a public that lusts after adolescents to refrain from the pursuit of one in real life. even if only in their mental lives.
on an opposite note:
One of the dearest friendships I have is with a former professor, not much older than I am actually, who neither saw me as daughter or sex object. Your post helped me understand why I am driven to live up to the person i first saw I could be in his class. If I didn’t have this amazing respect and gratitude for him, I wouldn’t understand your post so well. you are right on. . .
A slight modification: “In my work, it is absolutely critical that I never, ever, respond to the sexuality of the young women with whom I interact. This has” everything “to do with preserving my job,” because my job is precious to me and because the job of educating minds and souls can only be complicated by attention to bodies. I don’t ever want my students to think that I take their ideas less or more seriously depending on how they dress: they’ll get plenty of that in the world (note: how they write is a different matter).
I’ve heard, over and over again, how shocking and upsetting it is the first time a young girl realizes that an older man is sexually attracted to her.
I’ve heard a lot about this too, but for me it was more the fact that some older men are sexually attracted to you and display it in inappropriate manners in inappropriate settings that disturbed me. At 15 or 16, when I started receiving sexual signals of a sort from older men, I didn’t have a problem with it provided it occured out of the circle of trust I had with family friends and teaching staff, and provided it was non-threatening.
For example, an older man looking at me in public in “that” way didn’t affect me, but I wasn’t comfortable with catcalls or whistles from groups of men (I’m still not). I think it’s important to acknowledge that being seen as desirable in some situations, as part of being a “whole” person, and being comfortable with that, is part of finding your identity as a young woman.
Hugo, I know you don’t mean to imply this, but when you said that some girls hide their sexuality and others use it to get approval from older men, you made it sound like there’s not any other options. I neither hide my sexuality nor do I flaunt it. If some perverted older man wants to say nasty things to me, I ignore him.
Absolutely, Amanda. I should have made it clearer that the “some” (in both instances) did not mean that there aren’t other approaches and responses to nascent sexuality.
Jonathan, I am with you completely. I wanted to stress that my position was not based primarily on a fear of losing my job, but rather on a desire to be a positive agent in the lives of the young.
Erica, you wrote:
“It seems both hypocritical and dangerous to expect a public that lusts after adolescents to refrain from the pursuit of one in real life. even if only in their mental lives.”
As much as I would like NOT to agree with you, I think you’re on the mark with that.
Stephanie, I honor your experiences and have no intention of demeaning them. But the exceptions do not invalidate general rules, and I continue to believe such relationships to be problematic — which is not the same thing as saying that they are devoid of joy, mutual respect, and commitment.
I missed a lot of this kind of attention in high school and the first few years of college because of my weight, but the first time I was aware of an older man looking at me in a different way was when I was 11 or 12 (with breasts that I didn’t pay much attention to except to hide them). One of my teachers showed up at my house early one weekend morning to bring a book to my older brother, who’d been a student of his. I was wearing a nightgown that was a bit shredded and more revealing than I realized, because Mr. Johnson looked very embarrassed. I wasn’t sure exactly why until my older sister clued me in, and then *I* was embarrassed.
In my 20s, when I dated a lot of men in their 30s and 40s, I found the experience somewhat exasperating because they didn’t always give me credit for being mature or smart or whatever. The most blatant was my boyfriend from my third year of law school. He was 13 years older than I was, newly divorced, but a first-year. He just couldn’t give me credit for knowing more than he did — he’d ask me something about one of the first-year concepts, and instead of admitting that he didn’t understand, he’d smile at me and say, “You’re so cute.” I eventually got rid of him.
It’s worth noting that the phenomenon goes both ways: the real-life Scarlett Johansson, for instance, has commented that “men don’t get really good until they’re over thirty” and owned up to having public sex with actor Benicio Del Toro when she was 19 and he 37. No real insight here, just acknowledging the range of attitudes given her portrayed character.
I’ll be curious to hear how Scarlett feels about that when she’s 37.
Hugo, this was a great post. It’s late, I’m tired, and I have no insight to contribute, but…good job.
Why must older men who are with younger women fail to see them “as full human beings rather than objects of desire”?
Because for an awful lot of older men, the whole point of dating very young (not merely ‘younger’) women is that they are objects of desire, and not much more.
Stephanie, I’m not going to comment on your relationship because obviously I don’t know you at all. But I will say that the “What’s the big deal about older guys?” issue looks very different from the older side of the equation.
Hugo - I can’t thank you enough for touching on the roles and responsibilities of older professors and their younger female students. My friend is still devastated by an experience with one of your former PCC colleagues (to my understanding he left the college a couple years ago). Last year (in another nearby College) this man - then 43- saw fit to flirt and become personal with my friend the entire semester… even exchanging gifts with her… only to declare once the semester was over that he was just trying to keep her enrolled in his class (because he was losing so many students, and she was a positive contribution to class lectures).
It can never be stressed enough that teachers should NEVER get personally involved with their students. Sadly my friend had to watch numerous other much younger girls in her class fall victim to this man’s unprofessional flirtations.
And to make the whole matter even worse… the man turned out to be gay.
As far as I’m concerned, Hugo, you’ve succeeded wildly. You rock.
Hello Hugo, I am MAUS, one of those terrible misogynists from Man Power. I was going to ignore you and let you be. Since you have seen fit to malign me, that will change. My primary goal in the Men’s Activism movement is to eliminate the culture of misandry that has infected our education system. I attended Canada’s foremost feminist university. Based on that experience,not anyone’s silver tongued eloquence or political rhetoric, having actualy seen what would occur if feminism had unchallanged power,I will state that I would rather be shot by feminists than ruled by them.
My comment on this article will be in my blunt vitriolic style:—
“Some of my best friends are older men, I just wouldn’t like to see my sister going out with one”
Do you now see your own bigotry?
When I make posts at BC Fathers,I have a signing quote that reads:”I miss the old days when sex was a sin rather than a social injustice”
Hugo, I was once studying to be a minister. One of the crimes that I hold against feminists is that they drove the Chancellor of the Theological Seminary to commit suicide in the wake of a sexual misconduct witch hunt. He was a good and decent man. He was not even one of the people accused.He simply said that it bore the hallmarks of a witch hunt and THAT put him on the same moral ground as those who deny that the Holocaust happened and only his dismissal or resignation would atone for that sin.
I really don’t think that you would be able to persuade his widow that feminism is beyond question or reproach nor that the men brave enough to question or reproach it in the face of being reviled as politically incorrigible or exiled to sexual Siberia are particularly evil.
Protestant restorationists have formed a very unholy alliance with feminists. The notion that sex is a sin is now a virtually impossible hard sell….sex as a social injustice is what the belief pimps of the world are now hardselling, and I think the word pimp is apt, someone who lives off the avails of gullible women.
What I want is simple Hugo, I want the truth to prevail, the whole truth. Not the mask of propriety that people wear in church on Sunday that doesn’t go with anything they wear when they cabaret on Monday.
Hugo,my father was a mason back when that had clout and power. The fix was in. I could have been a Naval chaplain or a professor of philosophy or religeous studies, except for one thing, I’ve got a bad dose of integrity. Integrity is sort of like diabetes,folks who have it just can’t seem to help themselves. I could have been one fine fat prosperous Pharasee today if the smell of bullshit didn’t revolt me so much.
I deem it absolutely despicable that someone who would pretend to be an ordained minister of the lineage of the apostles of Christ would spout such crap. For one thing, Mary was no older than fourteen and Joseph was no younger than fifty.
I can recall a conference on “inclusive language”in the church, an amendment that would leave “our father”in the Lord’s Prayer was being debated. A lesbian ordained minister got into a rant:
“So you insist on saying ‘our father’ Why? Are your certain God has a penis? If so, who has “He” ever used it on? A littel girl of previously chaste character in an act that would constitute statutory rape in any jurisdiction in chrisendom”
No one replied to her. The subject was quickly changed. What say you to this Hugo? I have not attended a Christian church since nor will I ever.
For one thing, Mary was no older than fourteen and Joseph was no younger than fifty.
Where was this mentioned in Scriptures? I missed this part. The Talmud recommends eighteen as the proper age at which a kohen should marry–I rather doubt that the Jewish culture of the time expected Israelites to wait several decades longer than their priests for marriage.
A lot of times older men who make catcalls at young women or girls don’t do it because they want to be nice to the girl, they do it because it’s the same kind of power thing as rape, although not of the same calibre. I used to get more of those when I was younger and the men could clearly see that I would only get embarassed and not be able to say anything smart and stinging back.
Now that I am older I can use this dirty older men / innocent younger women thing as fantasy material… I am 32 and just had a heck of a time with a 61-year old man… But I think that I am the dirtier one of us two…
Where was this mentioned in Scriptures? I missed this part.
It’s not in Scriptures, mythago. Rather, there’s a longstanding (but not necessarily longstanding enough to go back to Jesus’ time) Church tradition that Joseph was much older than Mary, and that Mary was very young.
I rather doubt that the Jewish culture of the time expected Israelites to wait several decades longer than their priests for marriage.
It’s not that Joseph is supposed to have waited until fifty to ever get married; it’s that he’s supposed to have been a widower when he married. This is one explanation of why Scriptures refer to Jesus as having brothers and sisters (one of whom, James, was quite prominent in the early Church as Jesus’ brother), while Catholic tradition has Mary remaining forever virgin (the other explanation is that possibly “brother” was used loosely to mean “cousin”).
Personally, I assume that Joseph and Mary were of some age that would be considered legal for Jews to marry at the time, and that they had sex, celibate marriage not being, to the best of my knowledge, customary in Judaism. Maybe Joseph really was a widower who was older than Mary, or maybe that tradition arose to explain the brothers and sisters.
“those who appear outwardly fully adult may still be in need of our care and protection.â€
“I’m convinced that young girls badly need the presence of loving older men who are not parents or relatives, but who are still fundamentally safe.â€
“Now, at the risk of the accusation of narcissism, I will share that I do get plenty of female students who flirt with me, a few quite brazenly. (My colleagues tell me it will happen less after I turn 40.) I don’t let it go to my head much, because I understand that it’s not Hugo they really want. At the risk of sounding paternalistic, what they really want is to be noticed, to be seen, to be validated as good and worthy and interesting individuals. And they believe — with good reason in most cases — that using their sexuality is hands down the best (if not the only way) to get that attention that they rightly want.â€
I just happened to come across this post while doing a search online and felt the need to say that I appreciated (and could relate to) the things you said Hugo - especially the statements I quoted above. In my opinion, anyone criticizing your post is missing the whole point. It sounds to me like your interest is in protecting those that are more vulnerable and naïve or simply helping others to feel safe. The issue or problem isn’t really about differences in age. The problem is when a person abuses the power they might have over another individual or when a person takes advantage of another person’s lack of experience.
I agree that in certain cases, it’s not the man that the younger woman wants. It’s simply the validation. It really bothers me when I hear statements like, “well, I only gave her what she wanted,†or “she was asking for it.†The more experienced would quickly realize what it is that the younger woman really wants or needs. A man with integrity would choose not to take advantage of that woman’s need.
I wish that there were more who understood and believed as you do. I too believe it would make such a difference if we all could feel safe, protected, and understood.
Thank you, atib!
Hugo,
As for your Scarlett Johansson comment, I’m more surprised that anyone seeks a scientific, hard-and-fast rule when the realm of a woman’s feelings forms the centerpiece of what is being looked at. Womens’ feelings change dramatically over time. And while I have the utmost respect for that in my personal life, designing any sort of public policy to protect the mutability of womens’ feelings is disrespectful to the requisite iron-clad, purposefulness of law.
“Safe, protected, and understood.” Okay, I buy the need, and I’ve seen it myself. But don’t you think talking about only this one issue within a vaccuum is woefully inadequate? Well, unless all you’re concerned with is making a valid point to boost one’s ego, or to make one feel like a moral and upright person by taking a stand on one issue…despite ignoring all the other ones.
While I agree it’s morally wrong for a teacher to pursue a student, I can’t help but notice the following trends:
1. Parents working longer hours means children grow up in homes that are less stable.
2. High divorce rates (government figure is 50%, but looking around at the world suggests a figure more like 70% to 80%) means that children grow up in less stable homes.
3. Since fathers are much more likely to commute longer distances from home in order to work, children in particular are left lacking in fathers, even when there is no divorce.
4. Child custody laws mean a father is much more likely to be rendered absent from the childrens’ lives than are mothers.
5. The ever-rising median age of marriage in this country, coupled with high college costs, means that many of the male teachers between 22 and 30 are likely to be single and in debt heavily enough that they’re not looking to get married any time soon.
6. The feminist arguement that marriage is oppressive towards women, and that true liberation means sexual liberation, has trickled down to teenagers. See B. Spears and so on. Teenage attitudes toward sex is opportunistic, hedonistic, and cutthroat - rather than nervous, nurturing, and relationship-centered.
7. The vast majority of teenagers do not learn about sex from their parents (probably because they’re never home) but from other teenagers, and much worse, television shows and movies.
8. Whether you like the idea or not, permitting women in to the workplace, and allowing them to meet their own financial needs, has created a culture in which many women between the ages of 20 and 35 have tremendous chips on their shoulder. “I am woman, Hear me roar.” “Live life to the fullest (with the footnote of in the most competitive way possible).” It has reached the point where many men expect a woman to be confrontation, aggressive, amd argumentative - rather than mysterious, nurturing, or (God forbid) charming.
9. A side effect of Item 8 is that women do not go in to relationships in modern times for old-fashioned reasons. Especially within younger women, the prevailing motives are *NOT* comfort, security, nurturing, or (hah hah hah) mutual personal growth - but merely to be validated, to feel sexy, or to have sex with an attractive men. This has the effect of having 90% of women chasing 10% of men, with 90% of men being left out of the loop.
So let’s mix, shall we? Take a girl who is just beginning to discover her sexuality, who isn’t close to either of her parents - and may in fact be longing for a deep connection with any adult. Put her in a social environment where 10% of the kids are considered popular, while the rest are viewed by their peers as lower than dirt. Give her no parental guidance as to the significance and emotional risks of getting sexually involved with anyone, while immersing her in an environment where sexual conquest is the most pricy bargaining chip in the quest for popularity. Surround her with male peers who, let’s face it, are very likely to be highly emotionally and intellectually immature, and cannot provide her with any life guidance - being so misguided themselves.
Throw in a male teacher who is in debt, will not get married any time soon (can’t afford it). He might have wanted a girlfriend for a long time, but he doesn’t like how women act. Plus, they don’t much like him anyway, because he doesn’t fall in to that 10% category. He displays kindness to everyone, but more importantly - he is the first reliable and male constant in her life. He is patient while her peers are impulsive. He is well-spoken while her peers are loud and routinely mangle the English language. He can provide years of life experience while her peers can only offer generalizations based on prejudice, wide-eyed thinking, and bad television. Due to being older, he is less likely to “think” with his hormones, and more so with his heart. He has dealt with many more people (women included) than have her peers, so he is much more likely to see her as a unique individual, in both woman and non-womanly terms. And lastly, her (dare I say it?) innocence and sweetness compared to the typical aggressiveness and confrontational nature of the modern women in *his* peer group will stand in such stark contrast that he’d be braindead to not notice it…
I’m not saying it’s right for anything to happen between them. But consider that throughout most of history, and throughout most of the world today, a 50 year old man dating a 20-something year old woman is not considered a big deal. It’s only in a feminized society where women are modernized (translated, exceptionally difficult to deal with and most likely to use her freedom to create her own misery) where this is noteworthy.
And besides wouldn’t you sort of *expect* it to happen? I mean, strictly from a design perspective, wouldn’t you *expect* male teachers and female students to be sleeping with each other at record rates - solely because the culture is seemingly designed to make it happen?
Ironically, enough the epidemic seems to be the other way around. Female teachers are molesting and having sex with underaged boys - and in typical feminist double-speak, no one seems to care. (Links will be gladly provided for those who ask.)
I assure you that this pro-feminist is appalled by all incidents of child abuse, regardless of the gender of the victim and the gender of the accused. But a few highly-publicized cases merely bears witness to the fact that men’s abuse of girls is too common to receive publicity.
From a design perspective, it might make sense. But I am leery of arguments from design. You are right about many aspects of contemporary culture and the appeal of these age-gap relationships — but that doesn’t mitigate an older man’s responsibility to act in the best interests of a young woman who despite an outer facade of independence and agency may indeed still not know what she really wants.
Hugo - “But a few highly-publicized cases merely bears witness to the fact that men’s abuse of girls is too common to receive publicity.”
That, Sir, is one *hell* of a hypothesis, now where’s the proof?
I can see what you’re saying - that old joke among journalists, “When a dog bites a man, that’s not news, but when a man bites a dog…” But again, where’s the damned proof of this?
For my money, my equally unproveable assertion is that people are so brainwashed in to thinking that men abuse girls - that they don’t report it when it happens. But again, your statement is just as unproveable as mine.
You continue, “From a design perspective, it might make sense. But I am leery of arguments from design. You are right about many aspects of contemporary culture and the appeal of these age-gap relationships — but that doesn’t mitigate an older man’s responsibility to act in the best interests of a young woman who despite an outer facade of independence and agency may indeed still not know what she really wants.”
The sole reason I argue from design perspectives is to make people think more deeply about their ideals. Defining responsibility in a culture that doesn’t define *anything* definitively is a random exercise. So now that you’ve randomly defined what responsibility is, what design do you have to enforce that definition on everyone else? Because the classic approach we have now, wherein we assume the girl is helpless and the man is a prick, isn’t powerful enough to prevent these things from happening.
Hell, I could even argue that since male high school teachers tend to have more knowledge in their field than the women teachers, that getting rid of males will have the unintended side effect of dumbing down the entire school.
Your serve, Sir…
Meta Meta X, if you want sexual assault and abuse statistics, the FBI is a good place to start. Lots of stuff broken down by sex. Go here (PDF file) and scroll down to page 8. The DOJ claims 96% of sexual offenders who offend against children are men.
You’re right, bad things happen because our institutions of higher learning are filled with human beings. And human beings are flawed and broken cratures in many ways. But that just means we need to redouble our efforts to create safer space for all, especially students. And when we are talking about schools, safe space, by defnition, is desexualized space.
Hugo, Google brought me to your blog. I am an accomplished professional, 37 and male. Two days ago I met an 18 year old female. I have been the perfect gentleman, but she drives me wild. She is mature for her age, a renegade of sorts, beautiful, and very well read. Should I let the moment pass or act upon my feelings?
I appreciate your conservative approach, but should that approach apply in all situations? I do not want to exploit her by any means–nor do I want to ignore my feelings.
olguy - Well you didn’t ask me for my advice, but I’ll throw it in anyway.
From risk / reward perspective, you do realize that you are taking all the risk, and she is receiving all the rewards, right?! I mean, one false accusation, or even one well-intended flirtation can lead you to a world of legal hurt. So from strictly that perspective, the answer is clearly, don’t do it.
But since life is more complicated than that, ask yourself this: why? Why are you attracted to her? Only don’t answer it in a way like you’re trying to explain it to someone else. Be honest with yourself. Why the attraction? I mention this only because often enough when you can analyze the attraction, and explain it in simple terms that neither diminish nor unnecessarily praise the attraction, then it becomes more manageable. Telling yourself it’s wrong (or it’s right) without really understanding it can lead to an obsessive quest to prove that it’s right (or wrong), and that just leads to inner turmoil.
Is it sex? If so, don’t feel bad about it. It’s natural. Hell, that’s probably the best one to evaluate in terms of risk / reward analysis. You merely get to choose if it’s worth it to risk X in order to get to sleep with her. Simple, straightforward decision. Plus, it’s also the easiest to walk away from if you decide to walk away. You can just tell yourself that you met this attractive woman, wanted to sleep with her at first, but decided not to. Happens to every guy all the time. So your unique situation fades in to ordinaryness.
If it’s not sex, then what is it? This is where it gets to keep you up at night thinking what the hell it could be! :) Is it love? Hah, I said love!! No, really. Is it?
If so, what type? Is it that friendly love that just enjoys each other’s company? This is the easiest love, because you can just keep seeing her, make no moves, and enjoy her company. You can carry that love in the pocket of your heart, your own little secret, and feel more alive because of it.
Is it that obsessive love where you just want to possess her? *chuckles* You know that type of love doesn’t happen much nowadays with women being so strong and independent and everything. It isn’t often you can find someone over whom you feel - and are - stronger than in every way. You know more. You care more. You’ve survived more. You’ve developed a complex personality, a mixture of feminine and masculine that can see so much of the world. You can offer so much!! Or you can hurt so much!! That - is the root of possessive love: where you can choose to give honor or heartache at whim. Drunk on your own power, you can truly be shown what it means to be a gentle-man - to use that power and experience to give her the kind of love she can’t have with anyone else…
Is it protective? Does she remind you, in an odd way, of what you might be like if you could be born a female 18 years ago yet keep hold of what you know now at the age of 37? Do you feel like you’re looking at *YOU* when you’re talking to her? Subsequently, do you feel heroic - like only *YOU* can see this girl for what she is? Like only you can show her how to walk the path of her life because so much of it overlaps what you have gone through in yours?
If so, my friend, you’re going to be disappointed…and elated. There’s so much contradiction in that type of love. You’ll feel so close to her in personality, and yet so far away. One minute you’ll be talking to a young woman, the next an oversized girl. You’ll want to teach her everything so she can grow, but want to teach her nothing because of the pain that always accompanies true learning. You’ll want her to stand independently of you, but you’ll want to be so close to her so you can experience her as…yours. Your hopes, your fears, your wishes, your disappointments, your accomplishments, your shortcomings, and your highest and most passionate efforts. And because you’re smart enough to know your time with her is limited, you’ll try to distance yourself as best as you can - but you’ll want to stay close so she can learn as much as she can from you.
That love never ends “well.” She either learns what she can from you and moves on, or she resists your teaching and ends up hating you. Or you, her. It’s an unspoken contract. You teach, and she grows. If you don’t teach, you’re taking advantage of her. If she doesn’t grow, she’s using you buddy!
And if you both succeed, she leaves, and your heart breaks! But even though she leaves, she never forgets you. She looks in the mirror, and sees you. She uses her skill to accomplish something amazing for herself, and it’s you she first thinks of to thank. She experiences heartache, and it’s your strength she thinks of to guide her through it. Twenty years later she’ll be bored in a seat somewhere, and it’ll be your name she traces with her finger on the desk before her. Congratulations, my friend, you’ve achieved a painful form of immortality. ;)
Or is it *JUST* protection? Is the only thing you want to do is prevent her from being hurt? You don’t feel like you can teach her anything - all you feel is that you can be her shelter. It’s platonic. It’s strong. Hell, most would call it noble. But it’s empty, dude. To keep a woman a child, because that child is so beautiful? Don’t do that. Let her grow up.
I suppose, you *could* analyze it from her perspective. What does she want from you? Is she scared of getting hurt? But that just seems counterproductive to me. I’ve always been a go-getter and trying to decide for someone else what they want inhibits that go-get-em personality. I’m always a charge-ahead-and-see-what-happens kind of guy…
Unless of course the risk of X is too much. Hah, I just talked in a big circle! ;)
But seriously, read my post and consider it. One of the best parts about discovering the root of your attraction to someone is that once you completely know the why, you can choose to live the desire by acting upon it. Or you can choose to live the desire by *NOT* acting upon it. It can be your own private fantasy.
And above all else, good luck Dude. I hope it works itself out. I’m going through something similar myself, and it certainly isn’t easy. Best of luck!
Actually, oldguy, that’s Meta’s best post here by far. I don’t agree with all of it, but it actually captures some of the joy and the heartbreak of what I like to call April-August romances. (Screw this May-December shit, I say!)
You are not, presumably her teacher. If you are not in a position of authority over her, then I don’t see anything inherently unethical about your age disparity. But I also believe that it is possible to mentor and teach and guide without sexualizing that relationship. One problem we have is that many don’t know how to handle the mentor-mentee relationship without sexualizing or romanticizing it. That’s totally understandable, of course — and human — but it doesn’t vitiate the fact that at 18, her brain is still developing and she is still discovering who she is. Meta is right about how enticing it is for an older man to cast himself in the lead role in her discovery process — but as he himself admits, it rarely ends well.
Keep us posted, will ya?
Meta MX, dude, get yourself a blog. I don’t know if I love you or hate you, but you’ve got so much to say — good stuff — that others ought to be reading.
To Olguy - The real kick in the stones of the whole situation is that you might say to yourself, “Alright, I’m just going to be protective and nurturing, but we’ll keep sex out of it.” But one day you’ll meet her for coffee or something, and just *something* about her will turn you on and you’ll spend even more uncomfortable time trying to fight those urges as well. So even when you discover your motives, you’ll find they shift - with little explanation as to why.
To Hugo - Thanks for the compliment. It’s fairly obvious that I come from the more aggressive and mean side of the MRA tracks - but I didn’t like the one-sided hatred in some of the things they preach.
In short, I am on the dark side of the yin-yang picture, trying to find that small spot of white to temper the aggression and make my perspective more deeper and more complete…
I am really happy that you wrote about this topic. I have been very confused about an older gentleman (44 years old) that I (21 years old) have been hanging around with. I now know that I am normal, but I also realize that I am looking for love and care from an man other than my father. I need to find a safe man that isn’t going to sexualize me. I need a man to accept me. Thank you.
My first post here.
Seems a lot of you are really caught up in the ‘age’ thing.
I just fixed up two best friends…she’s 22 and he just turned 43.They’re getting along fabulously.
Another friend called me 4 years ago to say that at age 32 she’d fallen in love with a 61 year old. Her friends and family advised dumping him cause of the age issue… their rationale that he would die and leave her widowed at a young age. I advised her to follow her heart and think quality over quantity. They’ve now been married for 3 years and have a wonderful 2 year old.
And on the flip side…I’m 49 and my last boyfriend was 28…the one before him was 25.
Age is just a number…really.
If age is just a number, you’re saying that you expect to learn nothing from your experience, and improve not at all over your lifetime.
But consider that throughout most of history, and throughout most of the world today, a 50 year old man dating a 20-something year old woman is not considered a big deal.
Neither was it considered a big deal to execute a ten-year-old for stealing a loaf of bread, or to leave a baby to die of exposure if it had a birth defect. Be wary of relying on history for morality.
Hi there, I’m shocked to see someone be so biased about older men and younger women as you seem to be. Have you ever taken any formal courses on human sexuality sir? Or are you just giving us your opinion on things? Can you back up what you believe with facts from turstworthy sources?
Don’t you know that the bible is full of stories about young women and older men? I’ve lived all over the world and in most of Europe and Asia they simply don’t attach the stigma to it that you do.
I’m 58 years young now. Both of my young wives, my first one was 18 when we married and I was 28, my current one was 35 when we married and I was 53, Both women have had problems that prevented us from having children.
I’m the last male on my fathers side of the family. I’ll be damn if I let my name become extinct because of sexually inhibited folks like you. I look at and seek out women from 17 to about 30. Women older than that have already had all the children that they want and they have tied their tubes, or had their plumbing removed rendering them useless for making babies.
That is not my fault… They did that to themselves. I would never reccommend to any women to sterilize herself.
There are many simpler to not have children besides permanent sterilization.
So men in my position are forced to seek younger and younger women. Remember this sir.Nature determines when a woman is ready to have sex. She goes through something called puberty. When a woman develops breasts, underarm hair and pubic hair that is natures way of telling men this females is ready to bear children. I happen to think nature is a lot wiser than folks like you on these subjects.
I’ll bet you are one of those people who got upset when Janet Jackson showcased her lovely breast didn’t you? Adam and Eve came to Earth naked. They didn’t wear clothes until GOD confronted Eve about her making Adam eat from the forbidden tree.
Did you get upset when California kicked out a duly elected governor and elected a clown whose only claim to fame was that he killed more people per movie, in make believe that, any other actor ever has.
I’ll bet you were upset at president Clinton for getting some face from a willing adult Monica Lewinsky weren’t you? Now tell me are you upset at the Bush regime for lying to the world attacking and killing over 100,000 innocent Iraqi’s plus over 1,500 of our own beautiful men and women? 25,000 wounded.
A devilish regime that continues to lie and murder putting the lives of the American public in more danger every day by their psychotice need to kill everyone who is not white.
Those are the mountains that you should be conerned about. Don’t spend your time worrying about age differences between men and women. Older men/women have been getting it on since the beginning of time with younger men/women and I strongly suspect they will continue to do so.
Your mind is a terrible thing to waste.
And so it goes.
The Wisest Ine
To “The Wisest One”
You give me an ill feeling in my stomach when you speak of young ladies who have underarm hair and pubic hair being ready for sex. I had all of that when I was 11 years old and I certainly wasn’t ready to have sex.
You have also made a number of rather ignorant comments towards Hugo’s values and ideals that you have no place assuming.
Apparently seeing as how you have not had children yet, I am thinking that is fates way of saying you are not meant to procreate.
I hope that you look deep inside yourself and ask whether you wrote what you wrote in a subconcious plead for approval.
And you are not “the wisest one”. If you were you wouldn’t feel a need to state it.
Wise One, for someone who dislikes a scrutiny on age, I can’t help but laugh at the “58 years young”. Me, I’m 37 years old, plumbing intact even, who is damn proud of those years and has no reason to use coy expressions like “years young”. Maybe I’m far off base here, but I was raised to think that expression indicated a certain shame or embarrassment about one’s age. Hell, every day above ground is a good one; don’t subtract a day, or allude that you would if ya could. And plumbing? Must be that smoldering sensitivity that brings all those fillies to your door, huh?
And I can’t believe that someone who has actually spent 58 years on the earth hasn’t yet figured out that the presence of pubic or underarm hair, or breast size, is not a reliable indicator of whether a girl has had her first period. Or that a girl who has had a period is “ready” for childbearing physically, let alone emotionally. (I think my hip measurement was something like 28″ when I had my first period. Not very likely a seven or eight pound baby is going to pass through hips that size, no?)
Now, if I was in a cynical mood, I’d probably make some crack about how one shouldn’t go shopping for future wives in the Garanimals section of the local department store….but then again, they’re not still making Garanimals, are they? ;-)
Ageism… the last socially acceptable, indeed politically correct, PREJUDICE. Spin in anyway you want, it is what it is.
The ‘problem’ with it is socially constructed. No doubt there are still people who see a problem when people of different race or religion get together. The issue is had by the observer, in all their woundrous gossipping sanctimoney about the relationships of others.
Bigotry lives.
Me, I’m 37 years old, plumbing intact even, who is damn proud of those years and has no reason to use coy expressions like “years young”.
Word. What’s so awful about being old? It sure as hell beats the alternative.
It never ceases to amaze me how mother nature has got everything so wrong. Everything from the age of sexual reproduction through to nasty mind atlering plants. Then again nature did produce human beings, so l suppose that anything that a human being is capable of rationalising is in fact natural.
lm getting dizzy, spining around in circles.
Then again, human
Derrick, you could have sent this stuff to Penthouse and tried to get money for it.
One thing that I’d like to point out is that an older man’s perception of his power isn’t necessarily accurate. Certainly, teacher/student or employer/employee relationships have a power imbalance that makes sex within them a very bad idea. And guys who pay desperate women for sex (like the one whose obnoxious comments Hugo recently deleted from this thread) are definitely being economically exploitative. But not all relationships between older men and younger women are like that.
When I was 18, I had a brief affair with an older man. He probably thought I was stupid (I wasn’t) and naive (I was), and he was obviously only in the relationship for the sex. But his opinion of me did not materially affect my life: my college education and part-time job continued completely independently of his existence. He thought he was exploiting my naivite, and to some degree this may have been true. Had I been older, I would have pushed for a relationship on more favorable terms, and that would likely have resulted in his not getting into my pants. But really, the fact that he did get into my pants wasn’t all that significant. He got to feel like a Big Dangerous Girl-Exploiting Man, I got some decent sex, and then I broke things off with him and my life continued relatively normally. He wasn’t really all that Big and Dangerous, because the worst he could do to me was think of me as a slut. And why should his opinion be so terribly important, when he wasn’t controlling any of the resources I needed?
But why waste your sex life on a jerk who thinks badly of you?
(BTW, the person whose comments Hugo deleted was probably more like 17, not 50.)
Seeking out younger women primarily as a reproductive container to carry on the family line, and (at least implicitly by the tone of this post) discarding the ‘defective’ containers for failure to procreate seems like the most egregious failure to me. His view of women as objects is mortally disgusting. There are some things more important than carrying on a family name, as understandable a cause as that might be.
But why waste your sex life on a jerk who thinks badly of you?
Yeah, I figured this out eventually and dumped him. Just wanted to point out that his so-called power over me wasn’t nearly as great as he thought it was. When they’re not an actual threat to anyone, men like that are just pitiable, and it sort of bugs me when others think of them as dangerous or important.
I don’t know how old Derrick is, but I imagine he’s secretly compensating for the fact that he’s not much of a prize, sexually speaking. Or at least he probably doesn’t feel like one. So he has to be Big and Dangerous instead.
Often, when reading posts here, I’ve found myself wanting to comment on one or another thing you’ve said that I thought was misguided or incorrect, and subsequently been driven to (and beyond) the point of incoherent rage reading some of the other comments. At which point the one morsel of my brain still capable of expressing wisdom prevents me from commenting at all.
But here, I have to say that I think you’re 100% right. These sorts of relationships are kind of like emotional dynamite. Now, sometimes dynamite is just what the situation one faces is calling for, and nothing else will do. But it is good to remember, even in such situations, that it’s dangerous stuff.
Matt,
I welcome your comments, especially if you think they are misguided or incorrect.
Matt,
I know you are not going to belive this, but when I wrote some of those notes I didn’t know you were from Mars. Seriously,… I’m really naive, (and you know it). I didn’t know till the second year. When I finally realized we weren’t from the same planet I was in shock, and then I adjusted to it.__ Matt, I’ve never liked people from Mars, you were the first. I’ve never had any inclination in this way. I know you think I’m
mixed up, I’m not, I still don’t understand it, you’re an anomaly, a paradox in my life.__And it certainly doesn’t help that we have never talked about this either.
Matt, don’t go ballistic, just try to communicate with me.
although I have tried many times to determine why, I can not understand why my strong attraction to much younger women persists…I just turned 50, but I don’t feel any differently in many ways than when I was 30, so being so attracted to 24-30 year old women feels perfectly natural…on the positive side, its not just their youthful appearance, but their vitality, and adventurous attitude toward life…most people become more resistant to change as they age, but I have always embraced it and still love sponteneity in myself and others…from the news and what’s going on in Hollywood, it seems far most common place these days for the younger man, older women, and though I so enjoy the company of young women, few view me as potential dating partners…….
JC,
I think you are wrong about age being a deterrent for dating younger women. It’s all in your mind….I bet younger women are attracted to you, you just don’t think they are. __I know what you mean about having a younger attitude, and being older. I’m 50 and I act like a teenager sometimes.
Speaking as a 21 year old females point of view I don’t think that being 50 years old will deter young women. There are two kinds of older men that try to pick me up, the ones that are so forward that I think that they are dirty old men and the other are friendly, outgoing and that I don’t feel threatened by. Just have fun and let the women come to you!
JC,
When I was 32, recently divorced, and a single mom, I dated a 50yo gentleman whom I still care for deeply (and my husband knows it!). This gentleman taught me a lot about myself, including the fact that I am worthy of being loved and loved well.
Because he was dealing with issues related to his aging parents, the 18 yr difference in our ages began to bother him, so the relationship didn’t last. But the lessons he taught me are still with me.
Because of him, I didn’t settle for less than what I need in my life. Because of him, I was able to see the person my husband is beneath the gruff exterior he presented when we met. Because of the lessons he taught me, I have had the determination to stay with this marriage through the hard times to come through to the care and understanding we now have.
God blessed me greatly by bringing that gentleman into my life. I wouldn’t trade my time with him for anything in the world. I just wish my husband and I could tell him how much he means to us and to our relationship, but he’s in another state and I don’t have his mailing email address.
May you be blessed as we have been.
Betty, Anon, & Caitriona…..thank you very much as I appreciate your comments and encouragement…
and I certainly am aware that approaching any woman, younger or not, can be difficult, and I am often overly concerned as to how I’ll come across…(especially with much younger women), but there is no doubt that the best of any dating or romantic relationships, whether short or long term, starts out as friendships….I just ended a relationship with a 34 year old woman for issues unrelated to age….possessiveness is such a deal breaker….the ideal relationship is like three lives…you each have your own life that includes some alone time and time for separate interests, and then you enjoy your life and times together to share whatever common interests you may already have or explore new ones you’ve only just considered…..but then I also need some private time to write as I enjoy writing short stories… and just if not more important, I enjoy time spent together, for sailing, wave-running, dancing, hiking, etc….Funny, I never felt awkward when I was younger, but as I get older, even though I may look and live like I’m younger than I am, I’m still uneasy approaching younger woman sometimes, because its always more difficult without having that opportunity to develop a friendship first….but if I learned anything, it’s to remain forever hopeful…..
Hi - interesting post. Stumbled across it as I was looking for answers to - or maybe to justify - my own predicament.
I’m 20 years old and I’m crazy about a 52 year old (family friend). I’ve known him for as long as I can remember. We’ve always been kinda close… he took the role of a “favourite uncle” early in life and as I got older, we started spending more time together (we share a common interest that finds us bumping into each other with alarming regularity). Anyway, he’s a good friend.
He’s been there for me when I’ve needed someone to talk to and couldn’t go to my parents. He’s always kept an eye out for me. Always says hi and gives me a kiss on the cheek in greeting.
When I was 18 - totally out of the blue - he sent me an SMS message saying “If I said you had a beautiful body, would you hold it against me?” Corny pick-up line, I know… but it appealed to my slightly insane sense of humour - one that he shares.
It was the first suggestive remark and I did NOT feel threatened or cheapened in anyway. I was hugely flattered. It started a year-long “game”… who could come up with the most suggestive remark. During that time, I came to see him in a different light… and noticed that I WAS attracted to him, sexually. He’s not gorgeous (like a Sean Connery or a Harrison Ford) but there’s something about him. He’s not rich. Doesn’t hold a high-powered job. He’s a regular guy with a cheeky grin, sparkle in his eye and a bucket-load of appeal.
Anyway, the messages went from suggestive to raunchy and one say he asked me if I was uncomfortable and wanted him to stop. I - honestly - said no. It was that moment that I started considering him as a potential partner. I’m not someone to jump into something without thinking (according to some, I think too much) and so I started agonising over whether I wanted to take that step. And realised I did. And with him. Obviously I was physically ready - but emotionally? More agonising. And I decided that I was, after much thought. And I know I trust him - 110%. With my life.
So one night, we decided to meet up. I can’t begin to describe how I felt when he first kissed me that night. It took all my self-restraint not to tremble. Anyway, we were talking and mucking around (we get along like a house on fire) and clothes started to come off…
And then he stopped. Said he felt like an a**hole and couldn’t do it. Said he felt guilty doing this behind my parents’ back. Even though I wanted it to happen.
We ended up getting back into our clothes. He didn’t stay all night. My first thought after he walked out the door was “My God, I love that man…” And then, I was crushed. After so much preparation (emotional) I felt kinda empty.
Things were a little awkward between us for a little while. It’s all good now, though. I guess we’re both acting like it never happened… I still get a kiss on the cheek when I see him. We still muck around. And I still love him. Respect him. And deep down, I hope that something might happen one day… even though that little “incident” happened almost two years ago now.
I can’t explain why I’m so attracted by this man who’s 32 years my senior. I don’t see why it matters - it’s not like the age difference makes him any less human. He can think, and feel, and love just like anyone else. He has wants and needs. And I REALLY don’t understand why people see it as wrong.
I’m starting to wonder if I should ask him if anything will ever happen. As hard as I try, I can’t stop thinking about that night and how I felt. I have such a strong attachment to him - maybe coz he was my first kiss? (I’m not sure if he knows that). He DOES know how I feel about him though. He still does show a bit of interest in me… man, I don’t know.
Does anyone here have any suggestions? Thanks in advance.
And I REALLY don’t understand why people see it as wrong.
Because he has 32 years of experience, maturity and wisdom that you don’t, and is a family friend. A lot of people see that as taking advantage of your inexperience and willingness to trust him.
Cindy,
I found this web site in the same manor as you, I had been struggling with the decission as to whether I wanted to persue a man 25 years older than me. I am 21, so I am about your age. I understand so deeply the feelings that you have for him as I am there myself. I know it’s hard to put into perspective right now, you need to think about if it worked out. When you are in your 40’s you will be dealing with a senior in his 70’s. And I would love to say that it shouldn’t matter, but on some level it does, are you going to be able to deal with that? Can you deal with it if he breaks your heart? If you can deal with those things I say love him! Love him, if that’s how you feel. I know that I loved my older man and now my heart is aching, but I don’t regret a single day.
I’m not sure why no one is pointing out the obvious, and that is that old dudes just aren’t that hot.
My immature self still needs that visual stimulation, I guess.
Quoting Drumgirl…
I’m not sure why no one is pointing out the obvious, and that is that old dudes just aren’t that hot.
My immature self still needs that visual stimulation, I guess.
Funny.. I was thinking the same thing about the reasons “old dudes” try to go out with young(er) women. Maybe men and women are more alike than we like to admit..
Michael, I think you’re right. And on a more serious note, perhaps that’s what scares people about female teachers having sex with students. Could it be that some WOMEN are capable of being sexual predators, just like some men?
We, as a society, try to shove this under the rug and pretend that women could never behave like that. But obviously, they do.
And you know, some of those 16-year-olds are hot. (Am I a beast for admitting that?) But like Hugo has said, the older person must act responsibly. I would never dream of taking advantage of a 16-year-old boy, even if he thinks he wants me to!
And I’m not completely shallow. My fiance, at 23, is developing a bit of a spare tire since graduating from college. But I still see his 20-year-old hot bod when I look at him. Obviously, I’m in love with the guy, so that has probably something to do with it. :)
and that is that old dudes just aren’t that hot
“Hot” is relative. Are old dudes as likely to be as cute and hardbodied as younger men? No. But there’s more to attraction than how taut the guy’s butt is.
“But there’s more to attraction than how taut the guy’s butt is.”
True. The pecs are very important as well.
(hey drumgurl…..what about the thighs?! I’m a sucker for a man with well-developed quads and hamstrings!)
ahem.
Sigh. mythago’s right; there’s a lot more to attractiveness than the body itself. And some older men find inexperience the main attraction in younger women; they will reject a woman their own age who looks much younger because of her age and experience.
I know plenty of young women(40 and under) who think Sean Connery is the man.
And on a more serious note, perhaps that’s what scares people about female teachers having sex with students. Could it be that some WOMEN are capable of being sexual predators, just like some men?
There are plenty of female “sexual predators” out there, it’t just that most guys don’t look at themselves as victims for being “exploited” by older women. And we don’t report it to the cops or our parents as often, because, frankly, we don’t want to mess up a good thing. If we are lucky, we might just get “exploited” a couple more times… I’m not sure who actually get’s scared about this, but it certainly isn’t the (average) young guy.
Why do you think Mrs. Robinson hit such a nerve?
“There are plenty of female “sexual predators” out there, it’t just that most guys don’t look at themselves as victims for being “exploited” by older women. And we don’t report it to the cops or our parents as often, because, frankly, we don’t want to mess up a good thing. If we are lucky, we might just get “exploited” a couple more times… I’m not sure who actually get’s scared about this, but it certainly isn’t the (average) young guy.”
That’s because boys and young men are told that they SHOULDN’T complain if they receive any amount of sexual attention from a female, age difference or not, adult/child relationship or not. “Only men can be predators,” they are told, and if they actually complain about a woman at work sexually harassing them, or a female teacher coming on to them, or a woman actually taking their virginity away without their consent, they will be called “wimps” or “gays,” the latter of which isn’t an insult, but it’s intended as such by those who allege it.
Chalk up one more problem with “gender roles.”
I think it goes deeper than that, bmmg. It’s just not considered normal for a man to not want sex–the myth is that men always want sex all the time with any woman who is even vaguely decent-looking, and a man who doesn’t is probably queer. (And as with many gender-role stupidities, this is something people are harsher on their own gender about.)
Michael, there are plenty of younger people (male and female) who have sex with older men or women and are fine with it. The problem is that there’s not a lot of room for them to say that they’re not OK with it.
“I think it goes deeper than that, bmmg. It’s just not considered normal for a man to not want sex–the myth is that men always want sex all the time with any woman who is even vaguely decent-looking, and a man who doesn’t is probably queer.”
Absolutely, mythago, and that’s all part of the “gender roles,” and you should just hear/see the things said/written to me because it isn’t true about me. There’s nothing like being told you need to see a doctor simply because sex is low on the priority list for you.
“I think it goes deeper than that, bmmg. It’s just not considered normal for a man to not want sex–the myth is that men always want sex all the time with any woman who is even vaguely decent-looking, and a man who doesn’t is probably queer.”
I agree about gender roles being different and how both sexes are conditioned differently. I just disagree about what that conditioning is. Women are conditioned from birth that sex is bad. Guys aren’t. Guys as a result are less uncomfortable about sex and don’t feel stigmatized about having it. They aren’t made to feel guilty about having sex and grow up having less hangups about it.
A guy isn’t called a “slut” for having sex and is even “encouraged” (as bmmg39 pointed out) by his male peers and family. Even women point out his “flaws” if he is not sexually active, which is highly hypocritical to me.
The problem with generalizations is that, well, they are just that, generalizations. Your milage may vary. My point is, that the average guy just isn’t going to complain a lot if he gets “exploited.” He might even [Egad!], enjoy it and more importantly, not feel guilty about it.
I would rather feel not guilty than stigmatized..
Back to the conversation about older men not being as attractive as younger men…
I don’t know if I am weird or not, but I find it very seldom that I find a man my own age attractive. An older man has a few lines on his face and many still have hot bodies, if they take care of themselves. Anyways, just thought I would throw that in.
I like hot older guys!
“Because he has 32 years of experience, maturity and wisdom that you don’t, and is a family friend. A lot of people see that as taking advantage of your inexperience and willingness to trust him.”
That’s understandable. I can see both sides of the arguement. BUT he’s hardly taking “advantage” of anything…. I’m the one who’s made the conscious decision to be with him. He hasn’t bribed/conned me into anything. If I didn’t want to; didn’t feel comfortable, I wouldn’t - it’s as simple as that.
I believe we have a similar “social” life too - we both officiate different sports (me - tennis, him - soccer) and we both love to watch soccer… and that’s about it, really. I don’t do the clubbing thing. I’m in bed before 10.30pm most nights, lol. I have no interest in loud parties, loud music or drinking “for the fun of it” like most others my age; I hardly touch alcohol and don’t smoke/do drugs. The only vaguely wild event I’ve been to recently was a Neil Diamond concert. And that rocked, big time. :)
And just on to the older men being more attractive than younger ones… there are things that are more important than looks. I personally have to be intellectually attracted to someone before I notice a physical attraction. And usually the first thing that I notice is a guy’s eyes and smile. But, saying that… this guy I like IS a soccer Ref… meaning he’s pretty darn fit. Disgustingly so! Nice legs and butt on this one!
Most of the men that I see are in better shape then me and they are usually ten or more years older.
“A guy isn’t called a “slut” for having sex and is even “encouraged” (as bmmg39 pointed out) by his male peers and family. Even women point out his “flaws” if he is not sexually active, which is highly hypocritical to me.
The problem with generalizations is that, well, they are just that, generalizations. Your milage may vary. My point is, that the average guy just isn’t going to complain a lot if he gets “exploited.”"
We’ll if we’re talking about statutory rape of a boy by a female teacher, for example, it doesn’t matter if he feels exploited. It’s still a rape, just as it is if a male teacher has “consensual” sex with a girl.
Other than that, whether or not a person is exploited depends in part upon whether or not the “exploited” person is acting willingly. A guy may or not complain, but part of the reason he may not complain is that he’s been told that he’s supposed to be enjoying it. If a woman grabs the butt of a male stranger at a bar, he immediately knows that many would believe she is allowed to do this (though she isn’t without his permission) and that he’d be a wuss if he were to complain. It’s a two-parter: a.) he’s expected to enjoy any sexual attention, invited or not, and b.) even if for whatever reason he DOESN’T enjoy it he’s still to be a gentleman and let the lady have her fun.
BUT he’s hardly taking “advantage” of anything…. I’m the one who’s made the conscious decision to be with him.
The issue isn’t whether he is forcing you. From the point of view of a young person, having an older person attracted to you is a sign of one’s own maturity. From the point of view of an older person, young people are cute but, sorry, kind of shallow. Of course this doesn’t mean every younger/older relationship is evil and manipulative, but is it really that hard to understand why people would look askance at your situation?
(Bluntly, the fact that your male friend is doing this “I want you/Oh, but I shouldn’t” game suggests that he’s not quite as mature as either of you thinks he is.)
and you should just hear/see the things said/written to me because it isn’t true about me
Oh, I believe it. It’s pathetic.
“The issue isn’t whether he is forcing you. From the point of view of a young person, having an older person attracted to you is a sign of one’s own maturity. From the point of view of an older person, young people are cute but, sorry, kind of shallow. Of course this doesn’t mean every younger/older relationship is evil and manipulative, but is it really that hard to understand why people would look askance at your situation?
(Bluntly, the fact that your male friend is doing this “I want you/Oh, but I shouldn’t” game suggests that he’s not quite as mature as either of you thinks he is.)”
Shallow is something I’ve never been called before… :-\ I don’t consider myself any more mature because I’ve caught the eye of an older man either. I DO consider myself marginally more knowledgable and confident though. I think the thing that gets me most is the fact that HE and I (not him and my parents or uncle or whatever) have been good friends for a long time. It’s a fairly common occurance to find myself deep in conversation with him for hours at gatherings (etc). People always ask what we talk about - and the only answer I give them is the truth… everything. I’m comfortable with him and always answer his questions truthfully - and I’ve seen no evidence that he doesn’t do the same in return. I’m even more open with him that I am my best friend.
My situation with him (such as it is) is not considered to be anything NEAR a romantic relationship by others. Neither of us have let on that there’s anything going on bewteen us. As far as family and friends can see when we’re together, we are two people who genuinely enjoy each others’ company. Saying that, people will always think that a man who’s going out with a younger woman is after sex and that the woman is after money (or something along those lines). I find that to be an extremely narrow-minded assumption.
Oh, and I hardly think a conscience-attack (”I want you but have too much respect for you and your family”) is a “game”. He admitted to me that, during the day before we met up, he was having second thoughts, but he didn’t want to let me down which is why he fronted for our meeting. I think it’s sweet.
I saw him briefly last night, but was working. I still got my kiss on the cheek though. :-) I may see him tonight too… oh, SO many conflicting feelings.
Oh, and I hardly think a conscience-attack (”I want you but have too much respect for you and your family”) is a “game”.
If he’s continuing to waffle about doing things with you, that’s not a sign of maturity. If he’s indeed had a conscience attack and decided that having sex with a young woman he’s known since she was ‘old enough to remember’ and who is romantically far less experienced, that’s a little different.
I DO consider myself marginally more knowledgable and confident though.
Than what?
I saw Steve Vai in concert last night. According to imdb.com, he’s 44. I found him to be an attractive older man. (But first and foremost, he’s an amazing guitarist!)
I didn’t find him “hot” in the shaggable way, though. I just found him attractive. It’s probably similar to how young men feel about Laura Bush — attractive, but not first on the “to do” list.
However, I don’t think there’s anything wrong with people who DO find older men hot. They need lovin’ too!
So Cindy, I think that as long as this