Comments on: A long response to “B” about men teaching women’s studies

By: Hugo Schwyzer

Hugo Schwyzer — Sat, 22 Jan 2005 14:26:54 +0000

Bella, I absolutely believe that we need same-gender space. I’m not convinced, however, that the classroom ought to be that space. I think colleges and universities must not practice that kind of exclusivity; I think church and non-profit organizations that focus on gender issues ought to.

There is a time for building alliances across the sexual divide, if you will, and a time for creating safe space with your own gender.

By: bella

bella — Sat, 22 Jan 2005 12:46:41 +0000

I posted this in the wrong section so I am reposting it here - hopefully that is allowed.

â€œThis is why I’m such a strong advocate of same-gender accountability groups.Â Men need other men with whom they can open up — first to validate the reality of their own hurt, and then to call each other to account for their own role in what brought that hurt about.Â If there’s one thing that both the Maoists and the Promise Keepers got absolutely right, it’s that regular and rigorous self-examination in small, same-sex accountability “cell groups” is a prerequisite for real transformation.â€ Hugo

â€œIn my own life and work, I value the feedback I get from women around me — but some of that feedback needs to be processed in a male-only setting.â€ Hugo

Interesting in light of this thread - Bella

By: Amanda

Amanda — Sat, 22 Jan 2005 11:33:00 +0000

B, my point is I’m a feminist. I’m not accusing you of anything. I meant bringing up women’s station, not men’s. I don’t think all is equal, but it should be. Sorry if I somehow misled you.

By: Moontyger

Moontyger — Fri, 21 Jan 2005 18:10:46 +0000

Of course, a compromise as far as the name of the department goes is what was done at my alma mater (Rice University, if anyone wants to know): my degree is in The Study of Women and Gender. I asked the head of the department about the name once, and she said that they wanted to keep “women” in the name to honor the work feminists had done in getting women’s studies recognition as a discipline, but they also wanted to include gender because they did not feel you could study women without studying gender as a whole.

By: djw

djw — Fri, 21 Jan 2005 17:36:52 +0000

B, it’s time for me to confess a bit of ignorance. I’ve only been affiliated with Universities and Colleges that have Women’s studies programs or Gender studies programs. As such, I don’t really know how a feminist studies department would differ. You seem to imply that these departments are too broad, and feminist studies is more specific. However, you also note that gender impacts many/all features of modern life, which suggests to me that women’s/feminist studies should be broad. So I’d be interested in hearing what you understand “feminist studies” to be, and how it differs substantively from “women’s studies.”

Also, I’d be interested to hear your answer to this question. If you think men shouldn’t be called, or call themselves feminists, do you also think that white people shouldn’t call themselves anti-racists? If not, what is the difference?

By: zuzu

zuzu — Fri, 21 Jan 2005 17:23:24 +0000

You suggest that its absolutely ok to have Feminists studies become an umbrella for a multitude of other disciplines. Why do feminist have to bear the burden of every grieved group who lacks a deparmtent.

No, I didn’t. What I suggested was that feminist studies are actually under the umbrella of gender studies, not the other way around. Feminists, queer theorists, transsexuals and men’s-studies types all have at root the challenging and examination of gender roles and constructs in society. In that way, they are similar to a history or political science department with subspecialties like Middle Eastern History and Uses of Propaganda.

Sounds like you’re defending academic turf more than you’re defending the advancement of the academic theory.

By: b

Fri, 21 Jan 2005 15:02:06 +0000

Amanda contrary to your notion I do not believe the earth wil crash to the sun if men are “equal” But equality and feminism is earned and worked for not just appropriated or co -opted by men ( and women) when it suits them. It is life long commitment and one can not seriously look around this world and say all is equal. (by the way I am not to fond of the human race in general we( and I mean women and men) have royally made a mess of the world.
You can laugh if you like, if fits our culture of those who think caring about injustices is trite. Ironic you feel you will lose your mind if you don’t laugh at peoples convictions I feel I will lose my mind if I don’t hold on to my convictions in a world where everything is just a big joke.
B

By: Amanda

Amanda — Fri, 21 Jan 2005 14:47:37 +0000

B, what’s wrong if I’m amused by people who think that mere exposure to the idea that men and women are equal will cause the Earth to crash into the sun? Yes, it’s sad. But sometimes we got to laugh, or we will lose our minds.

By: b

Fri, 21 Jan 2005 14:38:22 +0000

ZuZu - I am very very aware of how gender affects nearly all areas of life and history. That is why I am so irritated in the first place. Within the hollowed halls of academia feminist have fought and fought to carve out a tiny little space for feminists studies because the sacred institutions of education failed to incorporate it in all other areas of study. You suggest that its absolutely ok to have Feminists studies become an umbrella for a multitude of other disciplines. Why do feminist have to bear the burden of every grieved group who lacks a deparmtent. Yes we empathize and encourage their fight and will actively participate with them in their struggle and in making sure they too get a department however that does not mean feminist should give up the only little spot on campus they have. I do not advocate that feminists “hide out” or only stay within its own corner. It seems naive to think educational institutions are sacred places there is a whole more indoctrination thant education going on in alot of them. And it also does not mean feminist are not being inclusive because we think there should be
an academic space for us. And mind you that even within that tiny spot it is cut down in slivers because of the distinctions betweens different feminists the “mtvfeminism” of a majority of teens and twenty somethings and the post feminism advocates who both seem to thing women never really had problems in the first place and seem to want to ride the coattails of feminist fights for choices then make their choice to be part of very the system that feminists are fighting against, then you have the camille paglia faux feminists and if the “male feminists” fraction wasn’t hard enough to deal with now and there are transgender men who mock women and feminists by assuming that because they
purchased a female form they too KNOW what it is like to be a woman and to BE a feminist. Do they know hate and violence as and identy struggle as a concept and as part of thier lives YES they do. Can they sympathize with feminists -can they be wonderful humans - absolutley!!!!!! But can a man truly know the complexity of living life as female and the very real and injust history (past and living history) of women and particularly feminist. No, I do not believe a men can do that. Would I like to believe it, yes. do I see evidence of it, honestly no I do not see it.
Bella

By: Moontyger

Moontyger — Fri, 21 Jan 2005 13:53:53 +0000

I agree very much with zuzu’s comment above, especially the first paragraph. Reporters do try to present both sides, but the lack of analysis often gives marginal positions far more weight than they otherwise would have had. If I were at home, I would cite some links here discussing this issue, but I am not, so I do not have those links readily available.

I also wanted to point out that I do not believe that it is possible for anyone to be truly objective. Nor is this only my individual belief, but rather part of social theory and this idea is very useful in feminist scholarship. People try to be objective, but can never really achieve it. The questions a scientist chooses to research, for example, are often shaped by unconscious bias. And this belief in and claims of objectivity can lead to more faith in the authority of science and any particular study than is merited.

These sorts of bias are easily recognized in research of the past, such as the racist and sexist biology and medicine of the nineteenth century. But these biases still inform research done today, yet the truth of the conclusions of this research is often unquestioned.

For these reasons, I not only do not believe anyone can be truly objective, I also think false claims of objectivity are harmful. It is better for us to always question and analyze what we are taught for ourselves, rather than assuming our teachers are both objective and the absolute authority on their subject and thus merely accepting everything we are taught as fact.