I’m still mulling over the various points folks have brought up below my two posts on dress and accountability. I’m aware that in the first post, I focused on the importance of men taking responsibility for their reaction to a woman’s appearance, while in the second, I wrote about my own attempts to exercise good judgment with my body and my clothing. I may be guilty of leaving the impression that I demand a great deal from men and very little from women. Some clarification is in order.
I’m a great believer (perhaps too great a believer) in the importance of creating strong, same-sex accountability groups. Particularly when we are talking about sexual issues, I think it vital that both men and women be willing to be accountable to those of the same gender. This doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t have frank and vigorous dialogue with the other sex, it just means that we must be very cautious about calling the "opposite side" to account.
For the past four years, I’ve helped teach our Wednesday night youth group "sex and relationships" curriculum. For each of those four years, I’ve worked in tandem with a female volunteer. The "sex unit" is spread out over several weeks, and involves much candid discussion on the physical, emotional, spiritual and ethical dimensions of sexuality. Most of what we do is done in a mixed setting with boys and girls together. But we do make certain to spend a considerable amount of time doing single-sex work. I take the guys off to one room, my colleague goes off with the gals. There’s an intimacy and a directness that happens when it’s just "Hugo and the boys" that is electric and powerful. There are things that get shared that none of us would feel comfortable sharing with women around. (Masturbation is perhaps the most obvious example.) And we can talk frankly about what it really means to go through adolescence and into adulthood in male flesh, with male biology and acculturation.
I’m willing to challenge my guys, and to challenge them in love. (For the record, I don’t use words like "acculturation"!) On the issue at hand, if this year is like years past , when the weather gets warm, we’ll have girls in our youth group who will show up wearing very little indeed. (We don’t have a dress code at church, and we aren’t likely to create one.) I do know that my female co-worker has done some talking with the girls about dress and responsibility and sending signals. I don’t know the content of all those conversations, and frankly, I don’t need to. I do think young women do need to be aware of how their dress may be interpreted, of course! But my focus is on changing how the boys interpret that dress rather than on getting the girls to cover up. That’s not because I see boys as having greater responsibility but because I understand my job as a male youth leader to be one that makes me more responsible for mentoring boys than girls. (Though I do love "my girls" very much and treasure their trust and friendship.)
I don’t shame boys for "lusting". Desire is human and healthy. (I may be twenty years removed from adolescence, but I have not forgotten what it felt like.) When we are alone together, I make sure to let the boys talk about who it is that they are attracted to and what they like about her. I don’t join the fun, but I do let them vent, knowing how important that is for them. There’s usually lots of nervous laughter. But I do take the time to make the point that male desire is not some imperious force whose demands must be obeyed at all times. When a pretty girl comes into youth group in a mini-skirt, I’m not going to expect "my" boys not to look at her. I am going to challenge them to not let her presence and their arousal divert their attention from what it is that we are doing. I invite them to consider that they have choices, and that while they may have a purely biological response to her presence, they don’t have to be enslaved by that response. I am going to make it clear to them that whatever her motives may have been in wearing what she wore, they have no right to make her uncomfortable with a penetrating gaze. And I always invite them to pray for her, asking them to ask to see her as God sees her, not as they see her.
Does this work? Well, success in youth work is notoriously difficult to measure. I do know that I have seen individual boys change over the course of a year or two. I have seen them become more respectful towards girls and women around them. I have seen them do a pretty impressive job of taking responsibility for their actions time and again. And I’ve watched a few of them "avert their eyes" even under considerable provocation. I’ve been immensely proud of many of them.
When making decisions about clothing, we all must balance many things: our physical comfort, our need for validation, the comfort level of others, and respect for the setting in which we expect to appear. All of these matter, and they matter to men and women alike. But I also believe that when I am offended or aroused by someone, the problem (assuming we see arousal as a "problem") is ultimately mine to resolve.
Ahh, Hugo, it is difficult to be a liberal. Your “focus is on changing how the boys interpret [the girls’] dress”. Now I recall your taking to task Laura Bush for some similar wording with regard to boys at risk in unfortunate economic and social conditions (e.g., ghettos). The concept (or rather her use of the words “changing our focus”) was rather disturbing to you insofar as it seemed to suggest a turning away from young girls who might also be affected by such ills. Of course, you yourself are turning away from young girls by being concerned only with young boys, regardless of how you interpret your function as a “male youth leader”. I guess it just depends on whose “focus” we’re talking about: Laura’s neo-conservative one or your liberal one. Perhaps we can say that a turn of phrase is merely a turn of phrase. And agree to look at the whole sentence rather than the part.
Bebe, my criticism of Laura Bush’s position lay in her suggesting that we as a society shift our gaze from girls to boys. In our youth group, boys and girls get equal attention and devotion from their youth leaders. However, male youth leaders have a special role to play with young men; female youth leaders an equally special role to play with young women. Both sexes receive the same time and attention and care — but we also make careful provision for same-sex mentoring. It may be separate, but it is sure as hell equal.
Hugo, I believe you are right on in what you say about each gender calling their own to account. You said “it just means that we must be very cautious about calling the ‘opposite side’ to account.” I was wondering if you believe that you equally urge such caution upon women who are “calling men to account.” I sort of get the impression that you may feel that “male privilege” means that men must expect to take it from both sides. Perhaps you could clarify this a bit more.
I do think that women ought to exercise caution in calling men to account — but that is not to be construed as silencing legitimate expressions of anger, though the form that anger takes does need to be controlled.
At the same time, I’m not interested in helping men defend themselves from women’s anger, justified or not. The goal is transformation, and that doesn’t mesh well with reactive responses.
Fair enough, as far as it goes. I can respect that as a defendable philosophy to take, as long as you have similar disinterest in defending women from men’s anger, “justified or not.”
I am a bit troubled by your expression “legitimate anger.” It implies that some anger is not legitimate, and by extension, that someone has the wisdom to declare whose anger is okay and whose is not. I know that I do not have this wisdom.
Of course, women are brought up from childhood not to speak back to men, so I don’t think that controlling women’s judgement of men is an issue here. If anything, women need to be given more of a chance to address their concerns with men. Women are afraid to speak out when men are doing something to us. No matter how victimized you may feel by a woman’s tight shirt, it’s hard to say that she’s doing something to you in the same sense that a man who grabs my body in public is doing something to me.
Amanda - Speaking only for myself, I feel not at all victimized by a woman’s tight shirt. Quite the contrary, I feel blessed! As for a man grabbing a woman’s body in public, that is a physical assault - a criminal offense. There is no comparison between the two. I guess that means I agree with you on that.
Criminal behavior aside, I also agree that open, civil (non-blaming) dialogue between men and women is the key to advancement. No progress is made when either side demands a litany of “mea culpas” from the other.
“Of course, women are brought up from childhood not to speak back to men, so I don’t think that controlling women’s judgement of men is an issue here. If anything, women need to be given more of a chance to address their concerns with men.”
Really? Last I heard, men were the ones who have been brought up to be extra-polite to women and not publicly disagree with them, but rather to tip their cowboy hats and say, “Sorry, ma’am.”
Now, what I have said doesn’t contradict what you say. You are female and I am male, and we are most likely to perceive the things that impact our own respective genders badly.
“Women are afraid to speak out when men are doing something to us. No matter how victimized you may feel by a woman’s tight shirt, it’s hard to say that she’s doing something to you in the same sense that a man who grabs my body in public is doing something to me.”
A male is not victimized if a female wears a tight shirt. A male IS victimized if a female grabs his butt without his permission, as a woman at music camp tried to do to me back in the spring. My complaint is that your speaking up in that situation would likely be taken more seriously than mine. Invasions of my privacy, my body, would be laughed off by a lot of people.
One more thing, Amanda. I raised four daughters, and I have no recollection of raising any of them not to speak back to men. And if I did, they certainly did not take the lesson to heart! I am proud of they way they all fearlessly speak their minds.
Stanton, I’d venture to guess the greater contributor toward women’s learned deference to men is social and peer-based, rather than parent-based (in most cases).
BG, pretty much every woman I know has dealt with being molested in public and afraid to say something for fear of being treated like she’s making an unnecessary fuss.
Stanton, my parents raised me that way as well, but more than parents influence a daughter. Despite this, it took a long time for me to learn to defend myself from public gropers. Criminal it may be, but so incredibly common and bordering on socially acceptable that it’s hard to defend against it.
Bmmg39–
Hi there! I was intrigued by your statement that men are taught to tip their hats and not publicly disagree with women. I thought that was fascinating because I had never really heard of men being taught not to disagree with women. But I think the difference is that that kind of courtesy/chivalry is really a form of condescension. It reminded me of the male lawyers decades ago who objected to women practicing law– they felt going up against a woman wouldn’t be a fair fight because as gentlemen they could not be seen to beat up on a member of the weaker sex.
My first thought is that women’s socialization not to contradict men is closer to subservience. But maybe not– I have no problem cross-examining people in court or a deposition, but I have a profound feeling of discomfort in questioning or contradicting people in less formal settings, especially when they are men. When I examine why, I realize that I am uncomfortable because I assume that they will suffer some profound humiliation or embarassment if they don’t have a good answer to explain their actions or position. So I guess my reticence is a form of condescension as well - protection of the fragile male ego.
Last I heard, men were the ones who have been brought up to be extra-polite to women and not publicly disagree with them, but rather to tip their cowboy hats and say, “Sorry, ma’am.”
So the men who angrily yell “bitch” at women who don’t immediately and warmly return their come-ons are, what, Martians in man suits?
I don’t know where you live, bmmg, but I don’t know a single man who was brought up to behave with anything remotely approaching that level of deference.
Amanda said:
Of course, women are brought up from childhood not to speak back to men, so I don’t think that controlling women’s judgement of men is an issue here. If anything, women need to be given more of a chance to address their concerns with men. Women are afraid to speak out when men are doing something to us.
Amanda, you are making a lot of sweeping generalizations here. Which women are brought up from childhood not to speak back to men, and how do we know this? You imply that all women are, but you don’t give any support to such an inference. And clearly there are plenty of women who are not afraid to speak up, so your generalizations (at least as you phrase them) are false.
You are talking about “men” and “women” as if they are homogenous entities (though lots of posters on this blog make that error, including MRAs).
Furthermore, you seem to imply that any female reticience towards speaking up is specific to females speaking up to men. Maybe lots of females and males are taught not to speak up to males. Or maybe some people (regardless of gender) are taught not to speak up to people in authority in general, or risk “making a fuss” if they are mistreated.
Amanda said:
BG, pretty much every woman I know has dealt with being molested in public and afraid to say something for fear of being treated like she’s making an unnecessary fuss.
Ok, but do you really think that a guy who’s butt was grabbed in public would be treated any better? It may be a problem that victims of molestation are treating like they are making an unnecessary fuss regardless of sex, yet bmmg’s point is that male claims of molestation are more likely to be disregarded than female claims.
Amanda said:
Stanton, my parents raised me that way as well, but more than parents influence a daughter. Despite this, it took a long time for me to learn to defend myself from public gropers. Criminal it may be, but so incredibly common and bordering on socially acceptable that it’s hard to defend against it.
Wait, what evidence is there that groping borders on being socially acceptable? I highly doubt that anyone but perhaps a small minority of people think it is socially acceptable. Maybe some people think it isn’t a big deal, and that a woman should just deal with it, but that is a different issue.
bmmg said:
Really? Last I heard, men were the ones who have been brought up to be extra-polite to women and not publicly disagree with them, but rather to tip their cowboy hats and say, “Sorry, ma’am.”
I see what you mean (though obviously we can’t claim that this applies to all men, or we would be making the same error that I called out Amanda on). I am not even sure that this applies to most men. But I do think there is a sizable minority of men who are socialized to show deference towards women. Pressure to show deference to the opposite sex is not a problem that effects only women.
cmc said:
But I think the difference is that that kind of courtesy/chivalry is really a form of condescension.
I think it’s an example of women being placed on the Victorian pedestal of moral superiority. Chivalry is doubly sexist. It bothers me that feminists often seem to focus on the condescenscion towards women, while ignoring the way chivalry disadvantages men for the benefit of women.
mythago said:
So the men who angrily yell “bitch” at women who don’t immediately and warmly return their come-ons are, what, Martians in man suits?
I don’t know where you live, bmmg, but I don’t know a single man who was brought up to behave with anything remotely approaching that level of deference.
I’ve never seen a man yell “bitch” in response to a rebuff, or behave with anything remotely approaching that level of rudeness. This shows that there may be lots of behavior going on that neither of us have observed. Or maybe I’m just unworldly because I’m too young to go to clubs and bars ;)
Mythago, if it is a common experience of yours for a man to yell “Bitch!” at you when you rebuff his come-on, I have to wonder where you hang out. I honestly have never observed this anywhere - on college campuses, singles bars, parties, or anywhere else. I HAVE seen (and experienced first hand) a withering, crushing put-down from a woman - apparently rehearsed - when a man expresses interest, perhaps ineptly, but not offensively.
This behavior from some, teaches me absolutely NOTHING about “women” as a whole. These few unkind examples do not represent who and what women are, and most refusals of advances are done as gently as the woman can make it, knowing how difficult it is for both parties. Do you believe that you know something about “men” in general from those (few? many?) who have yelled “Bitch!” at you for refusing their advances?
And Hugo: I was hoping that you would say something about your reference to “legitimate anger”. Do you believe that you are a proper judge of whose anger is “legitimate” and whose is not?
No, I’m not a proper judge of other folks’ anger. I can suggest that we all need to be ruthless about examining our own anger, asking if it is a legitimate, reasonable response or if it is rooted in a self-centered sense of our own importance.
And regardless of whether our anger is justified or not, we have to be very careful about how we express even legitimate anger. The point of expressing anger cannot be to blow off steam or to feel self-righteous — it must be to, in as loving and firm a manner as possible, let the other person know they have crossed a line they ought not to have crossed.
Aegis, I am not going to waste space with the phrase “the vast majority” of men or women. For instance, I am a woman who not only fusses when I’m groped, but I punch. But I had to overcome a lot of growing up in a society where a woman making a fuss tends to get more disapproval than a man who does this. One thing I’ve noticed is groping men and guys who call you “bitch” for not responding to their advances often avoid these behaviors if they think another man will see them. So they are relying on the typical woman’s fear of making a fuss to get away with this harassment.
By the way, that men who do this avoid the male gaze when calling names or groping is as good an explanation as any for why some of the men here haven’t ever seen it.
Hugo: I am in agreement with what you say about expressing anger in a loving way. I have seen both feminists and “MRAs” express anger in non-loving ways on this blog, but it seems to me that there is little “official” disapproval of the feminist variety, but plenty of disapproval for the other. Is this my own prejudiced perceptions showing through, or is there some truth to this?
Amanda: I can accept that explanation as to why most men may have never observed this behavior. It speaks to the fact the the men who do this realize the extreme level of disapproval these actions would provoke from most other men - possibly including violence.
“I thought that was fascinating because I had never really heard of men being taught not to disagree with women. But I think the difference is that that kind of courtesy/chivalry is really a form of condescension.”
Oh, it absolutely is. Those men aren’t being respectful to women and treating them as equals; they’re merely being POLITE to them. There’s a difference.
“I think it’s an example of women being placed on the Victorian pedestal of moral superiority. Chivalry is doubly sexist. It bothers me that feminists often seem to focus on the condescenscion towards women, while ignoring the way chivalry disadvantages men for the benefit of women.”
Bingo.
“I’ve never seen a man yell “bitch” in response to a rebuff, or behave with anything remotely approaching that level of rudeness. This shows that there may be lots of behavior going on that neither of us have observed. Or maybe I’m just unworldly because I’m too young to go to clubs and bars ;)”
You’re not missing anything — believe me.
One think y’all are missing is that while groping or whistling is not necessarily socially acceptable, for a woman to act assertively or defensively towards a man is even less socially acceptable. And frankly, I have yet to have a man jump up and tell another man to leave me alone. Maybe that’s something that happens in bars and clubs. ;)
Do you believe that you know something about “men” in general
stanton, I don’t know who you’re arguing with, but it’s not me. If’n you scroll up a tad, you’ll see I was telling bmmg39 that his experience is not in any way universal. If I said something about ‘men in general’ kindly point it out.
(Bars and clubs? Try public transit, or walking down a street in broad daylight.)
Short of being called ‘bitch,’ there’s a whole range of rudeness far short of tipping one’s hat and saying “Sorry, ma’am.” Being followed around after ignoring advances or saying no thank you, or accused of being “stuck up” or rude, for example.
And then there are the ‘politer’ responses–I believe other women here have mentioned, say, being in a business meeting and being talked over or ignored as though they simply weren’t present.
Chivalry has always been about good manners towards ‘ladies,’ not to women, period. It’s as true in the modern day as it was when The Art of Courtly Love was written. As I’ve said, I’ve worked as a stripper, and it’s very illuminating to see how some men act when they perceive that there are no “nice girls” around and therefore they are free to be as sexist and obnoxious as they please.
Mythago, I believe that you and I agree much more than we disagree. I know that all of the things that you mention are common experiences for women in many settings and contexts. As an attorney, I easily believe that you have had males speak as if you were not relevant to the discussion. My own daughter (the feminist one) is about to take the LSAT and apply for law school. I don’t want her to have any illusions about what she is facing, nor do I want her to get discouraged by what lies ahead. I AM encouraged by the fact that most of the schools that interest her have student bodies that are nearly 50% female. A couple are majority female. That has to be a plus.
You are 100% correct about chivalry applying only to “ladies.” But as for generalizing about “men,” I admit that I often feel that statements such as yours (about yelling “bitch”) contain a note of general disapproval of the male gender, beyond that small fraction - the morons who behave this way. If this is not true in your case, I apologize completely.
Myth nailed it–when I said that it’s socially acceptable to grope, I overspoke. It’s a behavior that goes on because the social condemnation against the woman who speaks out is worse than against the man who does it. When it happens to you–man grabs, you yell, people’s disapproval turns on you–it feels very much like they are supporting the groper.
That’s probably correct. No matter who gets groped, it is done surreptitiosly so that the crowd on the street is not disturbed. When the gropee yells, it interferes with the expectations of normalcy of the people around, and so the frowns (or at least, the stares) are directed there. They are pulled from their own private thoughts by the sound of some stranger screaming obscenities into a crowd. Possibly they have no idea what is going on, who the screamer is yelling at or why. How should “society” handle this situation?
BTW, in third world countries, this is a far greater problem than you could imagine, unless you have spent time there.
No argument there, but what to do in the aftermath when your point is argued and everyone thinks you should have just put up with it?
I wouldn’t probably think much of these instances except I have noticed that in different crowds there are very, very different reactions to this kind of incident. As is obvious from my other posts, I go out a lot to shows and whatnot. At a cruisy dance club? (The kind my sister drags me to.) Get groped, get blamed or ignored unless a bouncer is right there. At a punk rock show, where gender inclusiveness is the norm? Get groped, get defended.
No matter who gets groped, it is done surreptitiosly so that the crowd on the street is not disturbed.
Actually, a lot of aggressive behavior is not all that surreptitious–yes, sometimes, but wolf-whistles, extremely persistent hitting-on, etc is not. I have never had a guy *whisper* “Bitch!” at me because I failed to respond to his catcalls.
stanton, my advice to your daughter is to accept that it’s going to happen but not to accept it when it *does* happen.