Actually, a lot of aggressive behavior is not all that surreptitious–yes, sometimes, but wolf-whistles, extremely persistent hitting-on, etc is not. I have never had a guy *whisper* “Bitch!” at me because I failed to respond to his catcalls.

stanton, my advice to your daughter is to accept that it’s going to happen but not to accept it when it *does* happen.

I wouldn’t probably think much of these instances except I have noticed that in different crowds there are very, very different reactions to this kind of incident. As is obvious from my other posts, I go out a lot to shows and whatnot. At a cruisy dance club? (The kind my sister drags me to.) Get groped, get blamed or ignored unless a bouncer is right there. At a punk rock show, where gender inclusiveness is the norm? Get groped, get defended.

BTW, in third world countries, this is a far greater problem than you could imagine, unless you have spent time there.

You are 100% correct about chivalry applying only to “ladies.” But as for generalizing about “men,” I admit that I often feel that statements such as yours (about yelling “bitch”) contain a note of general disapproval of the male gender, beyond that small fraction - the morons who behave this way. If this is not true in your case, I apologize completely.

Do you believe that you know something about “men” in general

stanton, I don’t know who you’re arguing with, but it’s not me. If’n you scroll up a tad, you’ll see I was telling bmmg39 that his experience is not in any way universal. If I said something about ‘men in general’ kindly point it out.

(Bars and clubs? Try public transit, or walking down a street in broad daylight.)

Short of being called ‘bitch,’ there’s a whole range of rudeness far short of tipping one’s hat and saying “Sorry, ma’am.” Being followed around after ignoring advances or saying no thank you, or accused of being “stuck up” or rude, for example.

And then there are the ‘politer’ responses–I believe other women here have mentioned, say, being in a business meeting and being talked over or ignored as though they simply weren’t present.

Chivalry has always been about good manners towards ‘ladies,’ not to women, period. It’s as true in the modern day as it was when The Art of Courtly Love was written. As I’ve said, I’ve worked as a stripper, and it’s very illuminating to see how some men act when they perceive that there are no “nice girls” around and therefore they are free to be as sexist and obnoxious as they please.

Bingo.

“I’ve never seen a man yell “bitch” in response to a rebuff, or behave with anything remotely approaching that level of rudeness. This shows that there may be lots of behavior going on that neither of us have observed. Or maybe I’m just unworldly because I’m too young to go to clubs and bars ;)”

You’re not missing anything — believe me.

Oh, it absolutely is. Those men aren’t being respectful to women and treating them as equals; they’re merely being POLITE to them. There’s a difference.

Amanda: I can accept that explanation as to why most men may have never observed this behavior. It speaks to the fact the the men who do this realize the extreme level of disapproval these actions would provoke from most other men - possibly including violence.