I won’t have time to post again between today and Sunday’s show, but I will have a full wrap-up on Monday morning. Lots of grading to do today, and if I am going to give student papers the attention they deserve, I need to take myself to a coffee shop (away from the computer and the television.)
I must credit the Stand Your Ground forum for the link to this article from the Guardian: Whatever Happened to Sista Love?
According to the most
recent National Survey of Ethnic Minorities, half of Caribbean-origin
men had a white partner, and 40% of Caribbean origin children had one
white parent. In contrast, 80% of Asian men had same-race partners.
"For most of us, the mixing of races is the inevitable result of
socialising in big cities," says the writer Sophie Radice. True. In
fact, white female fascination with black men, and vice versa, is as
old as slavery and stereotypes of the black male libido.
But
what is happening now is not the result of random, individual choice
but a manifestation of a rejection of black women. Sure, you hear all
the cliche rhetoric about "I don’t see colour" or "love is
colour-blind", but not even the person saying it believes a word of it.
The unfortunate bottom line is that most of these "brothers" think
their sistas are an inferior product. What makes the situation galling
is that rather than accept that’s how they see things, the men try and
come up with a thousand reasons why black women are their own worst
enemies.
This is a familiar story in the USA, but I hadn’t realized that it had also become a British phenomenon. It’s got me thinking this morning.
My black students are overwhelmingly women. Outside of my gender studies classes (which are 80-90% female), my courses have roughly equal numbers of male and female students. As far as I can tell, I have similar numbers of white men and women, Hispanic men and women, and Asian men and women. But among African-Americans, I have at least three women for every man. The disparity is notable. The disparity is also notable in terms of academic achievement. I’ve quietly kept tabs on the ethnic break-down of my grading; I note that women and men do equally well among all ethnic groups except for blacks. I’ve never blogged this before, but running some numbers in my office last year I discovered that black women were more likely to earn high grades than any other demographic group with the exception of older (over 40) students. On the other hand, black males were statistically less likely to earn As. (Again, for any students who are reading this, please don’t take this as an infallible predictor of future performance!)
As a white male, I’m obviously aware that my own racial bias might play a part in this. I’ve quietly checked out my grading patterns with a few of my colleagues, and I hear the same things. We all have our stories of remarkably ambitious, talented, and interesting black women students. We have far fewer stories of exceptional black men. (I can think of a couple, but not many.) It leaves me wondering if rather than internalized racism, it’s the "success gap" between black women and black men that’s the major culprit in black men’s rejection of their sisters as mates. A little Internet research seems to bear this out. See here, and here, and here. Are black men simply intimidated by this success gap? It’s not a question I am qualified to answer, but I find it interesting to consider.
On the other hand, we see far fewer marriages between black women and white men. Though I zealously guard my fiancee’s privacy, I have mentioned before that she is of Afro-Colombian descent. In the traditional language of black culture, she can "pass"; most white folks are actually surprised to discover she has considerable black ancestry. (Black men and women seem to have a much easier time identifying her as such. No, you don’t get a photo.). For the record, I note with some chagrin that many people seem unduly astonished at the "racial aspect" of our relationship. For far too many people, marriages between white men and black women remain virtually unheard of. When people ask about my fiancee’s mixed racial heritage, I am always careful to mention the African part first, usually to quickly ferret out any hidden bigotry. Happily, we don’t tend to run into overt racism — but we do tend to encounter some astonishment from time to time…
Off for coffee and grading.
Interesting stats, Hugo. It gives something to ponder. You probably wouldn’t have any socio-economic data to go with the data you mentioned. I wonder if that would also be a factor.
Interesting. I blogged once on White men/ Black women and general Interracial marraiges. It appears that in the early 90s there was a huge jump in the marriage between black women and white men. Makes us wonder what you all saw that the rest of us missed.
I am one of those token black guys that did well in college and was frequently told how good a student I was, and “it’s not because you’re black.” I went to a small school in Buffalo and there weren’t too many black men in that school. But again, it was a small private college.
I’m not sure about this success gap thing. It may be true, but it never quite struck me as the case (but it makes sense as I think of it now). I think it has to do with one’s “professional” field and the demographics of that environment. Also, social demographics play a role, i.e, is your church mixed race or dominated by a single race.
My wife is white and we met in a Catholic Theology grad program, where you are not going to find scores of black people. It would be foolish to say that race did not play a factor, but I’m inclined to say it was a minimal factor. Everyone’s racial makeup contributes to their appeal, but in cases of love I think it is silly to suggest that race is premium factor. JMHO.
As usual, it’s the men’s fault, right?
Mark
Ono, thank you for your thoughtful response and your interesting posts on the subject. I did not know of this jump in black women/white male marriages. I confess I’ve been arguing from anecdote (nothing new for me here), and thus don’t have socio-economic data to go along…
One theory I’ve heard (which makes some sense) is that the ‘achievement gap’ is less between white women and black men than it is between black women and white men.
http://www.afrocaribottawa.com/publications/other/black_gender_gap.htm
A 2003 Newsweek article that touches on some of the concerns you’ve raised. And anecdotal evidence from a friend in psychology who splits her time between prison counseling and an urban women’s collective: she says that her college-educated black female clients understand themselves as statistically less likely to marry than any other segment of the US population. To my friend who also works in prisons where black men are statistically over-represented, it appears obvious that this is due to the huge swaths of highly intelligent black men in this country who are incarcerated.
So how come the Patriarchy makes black women excel but not black men?
Come on people, your being really slow over this! I wanna hear some reasons why this is all my fault!
Having grown up in an international community overseas, many, many, many of my childhood peers were products of interfaith, interracial, and cross-cultural marriages. I still find myself astonished that these kinds of marriages are still considered astonishing in some quarters!
(Not to get off topic, but try being a relatively attractive youngish professional woman married to a paraplegic. I have encountered plenty of astonishment, not to mention people who assume that I am my husband’s maid or attendant or who praise me for being some sort of martyr!)
And Thomas, amazingly the gender gap in academic achievement among African-Americans may not be your fault! Congratulations!
Hugo’s comments on black male’s performing lower than others seems true and intuitive being that I teach for the local public school system that feeds into Hugo’s community college: Pasadena City College.
In my teaching experiences, many of these students unfortunately have a different social point of view when it comes to academics. It doesn’t mean they are wrong, bad, or stupid.
What I feel is at play is a larger more socio, cultural, and economic factor that contributes to the mind set of these local black students.
The saying that the apple doesn’t fall far from the tree is in order here and when over generations, parents do not support their children’s education, these male students often end up where they do.
Here is one teachers frustration gone national over these particular students behavioral problems.
http://www.nbc4.tv/news/1733489/detail.html
http://www.nbc4.tv/news/1752286/detail.html
CMC, you are letting the sistas down if you can’t think of a way to blame me for this!
Come on people, there must be at least one convoluted path of “reasoning” that you can invent to link the patriarchy to why black women succeed while black men fail.
my wife is african american. when news of our engagements (ten years ago) spread throughout our neighborhood, a few older black women came up to me and said it was really special for them that I had chosen a black women. they were “astonished.” it was odd, i just listened and kept going.
Rudy — wow. I can’t imagine how to respond to something like that except to “listen and keep going…”
Thomas, there is perfect consistency in the reasoning among the regular posters here: no matter what the race, they always know exactly what sex is always to blame for any failure.
Yes, they may have to change the rules back and forth to score points against the oppressors, but the audience here can easily be persuaded to believe any excuse so long as the guilty party has a penis.
This discussion is interesting and after reading this rather intellectual take on what has been the bain of my existance (j/k…okay not really) I thought I’d add. I am a black woman of direct African descent, a double Ivy League Grad, almost a physician, have worked all over the world in business, am also a former model, and am not yet 30. I was always the girl “waiting until marriage” staying out of the drama of young dating, thinking that adulthood would have real relationships to offer and marriage in store of me. I went to mostly white schools, but looked forward to dating black professional men during college (which didn’t offer much variety) and after college. Let’s just say that my experience with dating has been a rude awakening on 2 key fronts that make me feel like I’ve ruined my value to a man as a woman by becoming successful.
1) There just aren’t enough men that I’d consider to be “on my level” “same socio-demographic strata” “bring as much to the table” what ever politically correct term applies this month :) And in many of the top tier schools, I hate to say it, but the black women and men are not of the same caliber. If you figure that every school aims to have equivalent numbers of black women and women for each class, and that there are fewer black men applying and making the grade. Taking the top of each class includes a “wider range of ability” to say it politely. During my college years, I could never understand why the black men never seemed to be as “together” as the black women (the way they spoke, the time it took them to graduate, how they carried themselves, how they spent their summers, whether they had the “stuff†that makes you think…now that is success” But as I graduated and saw many of these guys fall of, marry women that never made it to college, or prefer the less “good girl” types on campus, things started to make sense. As I went to medical school and saw the ratio of 3 black women:1 black man turn to an 8:1 ratio, I have to admit that my “he wasn’t good enough anyway” perspective on men turned into fear that “I’ll never find someone good enough.” This leads to my second point
2) Because black men have many more options, they are less likely to work out relationship issues. I dated a guy who left relationship when “his behavior was an issue - even when he knew he was wrong-because he wan’t interested in changing. He once said “I loved her and all, but she should just be happy that sh ewas with a guy like me.” They are more likely to find what they want in a partner and on “their terms.” Because for every woman like me there are 10 women so enamoured with a black man not in jail that they’d “take” anything these guys dish out (cheating, flirting, split affections, minimal time, referring to you like an accessory instead of a partner, etc) These guys can find relationship more to their likeing which are often on terms that often don’t celebrate the qualities that come with a “successful black women”…a woman that:
- may outshine you at times (we think that you’d celebrate her being yours- the way we do a successful man that we know we’ll go home with at the end of the night - but rather our success is seen as a threat),
- wants to be in a parnternship type of relationship where neither of you has to “live life alone” (when most men prefer to feel like they along can take care of their women discount her income and celebrates his own to enhance his manhood…with that kind of definition of manhood a woman like me is out of the game…just because I can or will be able to support myself just fine, am proud of it as you are your finances, and am just happy to share my life with you and to share in a part of yours)
- is looking at a man for who he is a person complimenting and enhancing her life and not a source of income or person to “tag on to for an identity and validation.” (I’ve seen too many men take out their insecurities in comparing their success with their woman’s by denying her a relationship, no affection, no love, cheating…as if it was an attempt to “put her in her place†with the one thing you know will hit home the most.
I’ve found older (not old!) while men to be more celebratory of the qualities of achieving black women. And have had conversations where my black male friends chastized black female friends of dating white men…many women who had horrible or no dating stories with supposed black male counterparts that “couldn’t commit” “made me feel bad for wanting and working hard at my career” “emphasized his career as more important than mine even thought we’ve all gone to school for equally amounts of time and with equivalent effort.” Women who are less accomplished than their men are more willing to accept and work with a relationship with a man wanting to be “more important” “never outshined” “wanting to take care of his woman and family singlehandedly finances first, then affection, partnership, time and love”
Everyone is entitled to be attracted to what they want, but I think black men are missing some of the most beautiful women with the most to offer them as “partners for growth and life.” And until they “catch up” in a collective sense, black women will continue to lose. It makes me sad to see many of my classmates from college and medical school single, and becoming hopeless. I was that girl on campus that everyone silently had a little crush on, but no one ever asked out on a date. And even now when I catch up with my guy friends their response is “I am so surprised that you are still single” These conversation used to make me cry when I’d think about the men I’d met that seemed to date me to say they could (ego material) rather than because they were interested, and others who started a relationship then said that “you’re the kind of girl a guy has to be ‘bout it’(aka “together†for those of you who don’t know) to even think of dating because you have so much to offer†All the while I am sitting here alone, while most of them are dating far simpler women. White women have the same issues, but they have numbers and networks on their side, we don’t.
I will keep the light on for a black man in my life, but from my personal experiences with black men who told me that I was too “bout it,†too friendly, too pretty, too diplomatic, too nice, too popular, had too much personality, too successful, reminded them too much of their mom to date, but also attract too much attention from other males, too well traveled, too deep, too smart, study too much; I’ve put more emphasis on finding a good man than a black man.
Basically, I’ve realized (after lots of soul searching) that feeling bad about myself about what are good qualities is ridiculous, and that although I am not perfect I have a lot of woman, person, soul and love to offer. So, I am not at all opposed to a man of another race that could love me and all of my “toos” I’ve left it up to God to sort out because the stats are against me, and I believe that he wouldn’t have given me all of my “toos†to enjoy alone.
Abena
Abena, thank you for a lovely lengthy comment. Indeed, I believe no one would be given so many “toos” without being meant to share it with someone.
In many ways, you and my fiancee have similar life narratives… I’ll be interested to hear her thoughts on your remarks.
My best to you.
I live in Seattle where most black men are with white women. They say black women are too bossy and oppinionated for them. They say we expect too much from them and white women just let them be themselves. I am a reasonably attractive woman in my thirties, I have one child, I dont sleep around and I dont do drugs. 10 years ago I gave up on finding a black man when I was told by one that I was not “ghetto” enough for him. I have the problem of being either too black or too white for black men. I am a dark skinned woman with strong African features, so strong that poeple from west Africa mistake me for being from there. I am extreemly proud of my heritage and it shows. I use proper English when I speek and I am very soft spoken and polite. Well being a black woman who is polite and soft spoken makes you “too white”. Being dark skinned with African features in Seattle makes you “too black”. I feel like I cant win with black men so I resolved 10 years ago to start dating White men and I have not looked back. It is sad to say but White men in my area seem to have 100 times more respect for a Sister than Black men do. Most Black men I encounter usually have something dirty to say to me when they approach me and when I call them on it they act like nothing is wrong with what they said. I have never had a white man approach me in that way. Dont get me wrong, I know like any other man that they have “that” on their minds too but they go about getting it in a whole different way. I have started reading up on this gap between Black men and women so that I can stop beating myself up for not being able to find a Black man. As for white women being easier to get along with, I beleive that translates into “she lets me do whatever I want”. Not to dog all White women, I have some very close friends who are white women. Even they notice the gap between Blacks and they have asked me why an attractive ,intellegent, nice woman has so much trouble finding a mate of her own race. All they needed to do was go to a night club with me to see why. I wonder what it will take to bridge the gap, I dont know but I am not waiting around to find out. I met a very nice gentleman last week who wants to persue a relationship with me and yes he is white. I wish all Black women luck. Stop beating yourselves up, it isnt us it is the black man who is falling short.
It’s great to have read everyone’s comments. I am a professional african american female in the corporate america arena and I meet a lot of nice, intelligent black men. Most of them have already found and married their mate. I also run into a few single ones. And yes, I am also some what exposed to brothers in the community who have not reached what one would call economic success. I used to be over 20 years ago a black man basher but I have been redeemed . I realized I can not take experience with a few black men and allow that to shape how I see all black men. I have also taken a good look at myself and what I bring to the table for a mate. I had to make some changes. Yes I had the college degrees, the good jobs, etc. but when I thought about qualities for a mate I admitted that I needed to work on some things. I needed an internal makeover. As I have worked on the inside it has changed what I see when I look at black men. There are a lot of great ones out there who are single and who would like a female in their life. However, in looking internally I have also changed what I am looking for in a mate. I have been proposed to twice but have not accepted any proposals because of the words of a really great male friend. He reminded me to ask myself when dating is this the person, with these qualities, characteristics and flaws the person you want to and will be able to commit to for the rest of your life. And also is this the person I will be able to commit to making what ever changes I need to make to honor, support and love that person. While in the past it has been “no”, as I move along each day I am coming closer and closer to the one who I have already in my heart said “yes” to. It’s just a matter of time. The key is as I’ve gotten older the focus has come away from me and what I bring to the table from a social/economic perspective to what I bring to the table from a mate perspective as it relates to what a mate desires in his mate.
Back to original topic while there may be some disparities in black men and women as it relates to educational success, economic success, etc. we must look to the commonalities amongst us and seek relationships that are nurturing for both parties. And we must be honest with ourselves about the part we play in those relationships. There are somethings that a man needs and as females we must be able to give those things to our man regardless of our successes in education and economics and vice a versa. As a female, If I am CEO on the outside I can’t come home and expect to be CEO. If I am in school with all A’s I can’t come home and treat my mate like I’m up here and he’s down there. If I have had to do things for myself and be independent making my own way all my life and I meet a man and can’t ease up and let him do things for me, I then am refusing to let him be who he naturally is a provider. I say these things because I have experienced these things personally or through the experiences of female friends. We have to be open and honest with ourselves whether female or male and see what do we truly bring to the table and are we bringing what that person needs. Everyone has the right to be happy and to seek out what they need in a relationship. And relationships require both sides to be open, honest and willing to compromise and change. Because if we aren’t it doesn’t matter what we believe the person is going to seek another mate to be with whether it be black, white, asian, hispanic whatever.
I agree that each person should be with someone who will fill their needs for a mate. It is so sad to me to see people “dating”- looking for the feeling of being in love and not considering whether or not the person they are dating fulfills the needs they have for a mate. A marriage cannot be sustained based on the feelings of being in love- it has to also - and most functionally- be about being with someone who fills your needs and whose needs you fill as well. That person should also, of course, be the one you cannot live without and for whom you have great affection. The man should love his wife- the woman should adore her husband. Unfortunately, this doesn’t happen with successful black women b/c in today’s society, we are not taught to look for the right things in a man. Everyone is taught to search for this feeling of love only. Sad to say, but that feeling is fleeting. In observing, I see that white and Latina women marry earlier than black women. They are taught to do so. They understand the functionality of marriage. Because our black family structure is so shattered, we as black women (black men too) are not taught anymore to seek a mate that will be a potential husband for us. The men are not taught their role either. As women, we are more focused on personal goals, i.e. school, success, stability, becoming self-sufficient b/c we don’t want to have to struggle like our own mothers did. And, men are just out there. A lot of them have had no role models- and the only examples society shows them are negative ones. In a system that is pretty much set up to take them down- mistake or no mistake, a lot end up in jail- or unenthusiastic about school b/c that is the image they have been taught of themselves. It is all too sad.
I am a young black woman attending a predominantly white university and the only black guys I know of are on the basketball team- and not even the type of guy I would want to talk to. I need a man to stimulate my mind, my spirit. The black guys my age watch videos and try to emulate what they see. All they want to stimulate is my body and i hate it when guys approach me that way. I am curious about one thing though. None of the white guys at my school look twice at me or even notice that I am there. I am an attractive woman- but to them I am invisible. I am very fair skinned. And, I notice that all the white men I see with black women are with dark skinned black women- is that the trend? if so, why?