I was gratified that we had so many kids show up last night for the first of four consecutive Wednesdays devoted to a discussion of sex, faith, and ethics. A normal turnout is about 15-20 these days; last night, we had almost 30 teens.
Since confidentiality is always vital in youth work, I won’t blog about anything that any of the kids said last night. But I will share one activity that we’ve used successfully for years. We let the teens write questions, anonymously, on small slips of paper, and we put them in a box. (Last night, actually, it was a large plastic tub that until recently had contained Red Vines.) The adults then pick questions out at random, and we do our best to answer them.
Last night, one question appeared that I feel comfortable blogging about. It read: "What do you really think about us having sex at our age?"
Yikes. Great question. I read it out loud, and immediately looked at my other youth group leaders, hoping that one of them would be struck by inspiration. They just smiled back at me, with a look that said "Better you than us, Hugo!" I gulped and took a stab at an answer, having first uttered a rapid and almost silent prayer. When I was much younger, I would have told them "I want you to do whatever makes you happy, as long as you aren’t hurting yourself or someone else." That’s the simple, rather mindlessly liberal answer. Three years ago, I might have said "In my heart of hearts, I wish you would all wait until you were much older. Frankly, I wish you’d wait until marriage." I believed that with a passion, once. For any number of reasons, those words ring hollow to me now. I couldn’t say that with sincerity because I no longer believe it.
So here’s (more or less) what I said:
"You guys, when I look at you, it isn’t possible for me to see you as a group of generic teenagers. When I look at this room, I don’t just see fifteen, sixteen, and seventeen year-olds. I see people whose individual stories I know. Some of you I’ve known just a little while. Some of you I’ve known since you were bratty little sixth-graders five or six years ago. When I look at you (pointing around the room), I see (names changed) Michael, not a sophomore boy. I see Marie, not a senior girl; I see Janae and Brent and Alexa and Rick, not just four random kids sitting on a couch. And though you are all alike in so many countless ways, you’re also fundamentally different people with different needs and different histories. Honestly, the more I work with you, the less I feel comfortable handing out a one-size-fits-all moral agenda with any confidence. In truth, while I think in general it is better to wait before taking on the enormous responsibilities and consequences of sex, I know full well that some of you are simply "readier" than others. I’m not going to name names, of course! But I can’t help but see you as individuals with different desires and different levels of maturity, faith, and emotional preparedness."
So help me, those are (more or less) the words that came to me. I’ve been reflecting on them this morning. I’m not sure if those were the right words in answer to a very serious question. Yes, they came from my heart. But I know enough to know that as a thirty-seven year-old youth worker, I have to answer the sensitive questions of kids less than half my age from my head as well as from my heart! Was that just unthinking progressive pablum? Am I sometimes so damned open-minded that the wind blows through? Or was that really the right thing, the inspired thing, to say?
Above all, I wonder this: before I said those words, I asked Christ for help. Was He anywhere in my answer?
I’m wrestling with that this rainy Pasadena morning.
For what it’s worth, Hugo, I think that’s an excellent answer. I admire your unwillingness to preach either of your two previous positions which no longer ring true for you, and I have to imagine that the kids in your youth group heard the genuine caring in your words and will respond to it well and wisely. Bravo.
It’s the only honest answer–some teenagers have sex and it’s a positive experience and denying that fact is a lie. And lying to children is, to my mind, a worse thing to do than a little fornicatin’.
I think the statement was heartfelt, intellectually honest—but more important, something the kids in the youth group are actually likely to listen to and reflect on.
I know as a teenager, I instantly turned off on any “save your virginity for your husband” or “abstinence is the best way to avoid teenage pregnancy, which is a fate worse than death” message. Such responses are canned; a painfully obvious case of talking at you rather than to you. They might be kids, but they already know that sexual relationships are more complex and nuanced than that.
There seems to be plenty of cultural room amongst adults to talk about the mixed messages youth receive about sex, yet very little cultural room for discussion of the mixed messages youth are constantly receiving about maturity and adulthood. I think your message conveyed that message far more than any traditional prepared script could have.
Thanks, Rachel. Amanda, La Lubu; I hear you and appreciate the kind words. Except I worry, a lot, about the various ways I could be lying to “my kids.” Telling them the truth as I see it means I’m being honest, but what if what I believe is also, in fact, a lie? That’s what haunts me.
I’ve got Matthew 18:6 in my head all the time these days.
And I still stand by what I said.
He did preach — it’s just a sermon we heard too often and has almost no value to guiding Faithful behaviour, except that which strikes us as faithful in any particular moment.
Hugo, you asked, so here goes: I think you missed a significant opportunity to help these kids. You spoke and reinforced the prevailing attitude of permissive culture to them — perhaps beautifully, perhaps heartfelt and sincerely — but a lost chance to provide True guidance to them nonetheless. And they tossed a softball to you. If they needed to hear your words they could have opened Teen People or watched sit-coms — but at a churuch? Just sad.
Stephen
Stephen, with respect, Teen People doesn’t know who they are. Teen People sees teens generically. It flatters them indiscriminately. I’m talking about kids whom I know, who have confided in me, whom I’ve watched struggle and grow.
True guidance is not simply the winsome presentation of ancient, unchanging truth. It’s making that truth applicable to individuals, in the knowledge that we are all unique and special creatures. In our father’s house, there are many mansions, and some will choose to live in one room rather than another, but they will all be sheltered under His roof.
Oh, and it didn’t feel like a softball. It felt like a wicked curve.
Well, Hugo….I’d still say that “your kids” have their own agency.
And that’s the sticky wicket, isn’t it? I mean, what are we really talking about when we (adults) discuss teenagers and sex? What’s it really about? Is it about religious restrictions? Is it about gender roles? Is it just about avoiding pregnancy?
See, we tend to couch whatever we say in the vague terminology of “maturity”…yet in the meantime, what are we doing to teach maturity? I’d guess that most of those kids get lectured or told about ‘maturity’ every so often, yet get a helf-hour’s detention if they show up a couple minutes late for class. The rationale is that this teaches the kids “consequences”, yet the counterpart to the couple-minutes-late scenario is likely to be nil at either work or college, provided that it’s a rare event, not a typical one.
Point being, that we give lip service to the teaching of maturity; in reality we aren’t that comfortable with giving teenagers the responsibilities of adulthood that were typical of teenagers in days gone by. High schools resemble grade schools far more than colleges, and that was not always the case.
You might be a little uncomfortable with your comments to the kids, Hugo, but by recognizing their own agency you’ve given them a greater gift. Teenagers can and do reflect on their level of maturity (remember?). And especially in this day and age, they have a hard time finding adults who will recognize them as having a certain degree of maturity.
What you believe is not a lie–this is why black and white, one size fits all moralizing gets people off the path. Our own eyes and ears tell us that different people have different approaches to sex, and that they generally do best when they are allowed to make their own choices. But moralizing makes us second guess what we knew was true in the first place.
“True guidance is not simply the winsome presentation of ancient, unchanging truth.”
Why? It can be done with grace and love, with humility borne of knowledge of our falliability but providing Truth seems a good starting point.
How is what you provided different than what Teen People provides?
You obviously were not entirely comfortable with your answer either, else your conscience wouldn’t be bothering you this morning. (See the article on conscience in this month’s First Things.) A good thing, I think.
I would add–the kid who asked that is probably already having sex.
You know what I hear when I hear judgements like Stephen’s?
“Sex is a treat that is only doled out to the deserving. And the people who get to decide who is deserving are the deserving.”
Amazing how some pleasures are marked off by the rule-makers are pleasures only for themselves. Funny, really, how that works out.
Amanda:
May I suggest a really big Q-Tip?
Stephen
Hugo,
I think you gave the kids a very honest answer. Why are you doubting yourself? Why do you think your answer was a lie?
Because, Karla, I’m prone to doubting myself, and I carry within me many voices. I’ve got the conservative evangelical talking to me along with the progressive Protestant; I’ve got my own background as a secular peer sex educator at Cal to balance with my own fascination with traditional faith and traditional mores. I’m torn. But in the end, I have to come down on the side I came down on — I felt inspired, but wouldn’t dare suggest that it was the Spirit’s inspiration. I simply have to trust I said the right thing.
You know Hugo, I don’t believe that you are prone to doubting yourself at all! …I think that you have great instincts, but you are an intellectual, so you will naturally doubt your intuition. __I’m the opposite, I’m more intuitive than intellectual. __You need to trust your instincts, they are rarely wrong. I’ve learned that this is an untapped area for most people.__ Lucky is the individual that can learn to use both their intellect and intuition!
The question was “What do you really think about us having sex at our age?”, not “Does [the Church/the Bible/our pastor] say about sex?” Hugo, I think your answer was entirely appropriate. (Use a grain of salt of the size you think correct, since I’m an atheist.)
Have you had a chance to read Lauren Winner’s new book on sex, Real Sex? I haven’t, but from what I read in an interview she did with Beliefnet she presents a way to encourage chastity without the “just say no” babble that encourages repression instead of understanding.
One thing she says, and that I agree with her about, is that sex outside of marriage is a disordering of sex in the Augustinian sense of disordering. In short, sex doesn’t belong any other context than marriage. It is an unintelligible act outside of marriage and the type of commitment affirmed in the marriage relationship. Sex is more than passion and an intense personal exchange to be understood as a pleasurable good. It means a lot more than that and pretending that it doesn’t is further supporting the disordered sexuality that permeates our culture. Sex is trivialized by our culture, thus making it that much more irresistible.
In a seminary, I once had a professor say that it used to be that sex was a drive that someone had. There was a way to alleviate that drive, namely the sexual act. The problem today is that sex is tied to acquisition and achievement. It has, in a very real sense, been co-opted by capitalist logic so that screwing and who you screw is a status symbol. The problem in this transition is that lust and greed have become intertwined in such a manner so that the sexual act no longer gives reprieve from lust. Like greed, a little is never enough.
I do think that chastity is a Christian virtue. I do think that one cannot epistemologically appreciate sex outside of the marriage relationship. I do think that regardless of my discussion of virtue and epistemology that teen will have sex. Thanks for the work you do in being honest with your teens rather than denying the reality that they are immersed in daily. I do, however, believe in the power of a resurrection that makes to common sense of reality subordinate to the New Creation.
Peace
Here’s the link to the interview:
http://www.beliefnet.com/story/162/story_16230_1.html
The Winner book is actually quite good - she is a primo writer, juggling tradition, personal experience and stories from her circle of friends.
I like your response, for it’s care, it’s open-ness and it’s ambiguity. You are clearly the embodiment of the radical Incarnality of Jesus for these kids.
OTOH, I wonder about what seems like the money shot part of your response:
In truth, while I think in general it is better to wait before taking on the enormous responsibilities and consequences of sex, I know full well that some of you are simply “readier” than others.
I am 41, have two kids - my wife & I started dating when I was 14, she 15. We grew up in the belly of YM - I’ve got all the t-shirts, my highlighted THE WAY, my Michael W. Smith track. No one ever unpackes the responsibilities of sex for us in non-fear context - it’s all about JUST SAY NO.
What strikes me as confusing is if this conversation were about the consequences of abusing food or money, rather than the kryptonite that Church Inc ™ attaches to our gentalia. Would you have responded differently ? Would I ?
Hugo - I can’t speak to your faith issue, as you know, but I approve of what you told the kids.
Kids need adults to be as honest with them, as you were honest with that group. There comes a point when you have to stop giving “lessons” and speak directly to the teens about themselves. (One of the reasons they aren’t considered “adults” is because many of them don’t yet have the ability to take an abstract or objective “lesson” and correctly apply it to themselves.)
They’re at a tricky age…still needing and wanting adult guidance and yet nervously eager to be seen as “adults” with all of the rights and privileges. You acknowledged this by acknowledging each of them as a person in their own right. I’d imagine this also helped to reinforce for each of them their own personal responsibility for their decision.
At the same time you gave those who might not feel ready, or not know if they’re ready, you gave those kids permission to say ‘no.’
I think that’s something that gets lost in our society today. Not a demand that everyone say no outside of heterosexual marriage for the purpose of procreation.
A, “you know, I really don’t want to” kind of ‘no’. Permission to say ‘no’ in a way that doesn’t make the kid feel like their “maturity” is in question.
Abnormal,
I think Hugo’s comment was perfectly worded and delivered, it sent the right message to the right audience. It sounded great to me! __I would have probably added that once you take a step in that direction it changes your entire life. You have to worry about birth control. You have to worry about where you will meet. You have to worry about the guilt. You have to worry about the change in the status of the relationship.__ You aren’t friends anymore…you are lovers, and this changes the dynamics considerably. __Life is about change, you just have to make sure that you are committed to that change.__If you don’t feel good about it, you should not do it!__The only way to know is to spend time with your partner,if it’s not right, the two of you will know!
As someone who’s pretty much an outsider to Christianity as it’s actually practiced, I find this discussion, and the one on divorce, interesting.
I have fewer problems with a church that uses strong social/spiritual pressures to attempt to discourage divorce among married members of their congregation than I do with one that uses those same pressures to discourage sexual activity amoung youth in their congregation. I think it’s because of the idea that the adult congregation is self-selected, whereas a lot of youth don’t have the same opportunity to accept or refuse the religion.
Oh, my hearing is fine, Stephen. I’m just translating for clarity.
One thing that occurred to me is that some teenagers might here your response and get all anxious and worried about whether they’re one of the ‘ready’ ones in your eyes, and if not, why not, etc. etc. But I can’t think of a way around this potential problem, and your response seems about as good as one can imagine.
I must say, I respect the kid who wrote the question a great deal. Here you are trying to figure out ways to get them to talk honestly and openly about sex and this one completely turns the tables. Smart kid.
Thunder, with due respect, (and I haven’t read the Winner book) it’s very hard for me to imagine that a heady dose of Augustinian philosophy is going to inspire a wave of chastity amongst teenagers. In my experience (secular, higher ed, but still), the youth of America have shockingly little interest in Augustinian philosophy.
The philosophy provides the background for something else to be built upon. Mediated tradition, djw, mediated tradition. It’s what Anglicanism is all about.
BTW, I don’t want to bring in Augustine’s phobias about his genitles, but his understanding of the proper ordering of affections towards God is pretty helpful.
I’ve been reading your blog for several months now, but I’ve never commented until now. Although I have never been a Christian, I attended a conservative Church of Christ with my mother until I left for college. Although I’m pro-choice and quite liberal, I have to say that I disagree with your answer. I saw very little healthy sexuality in high school. I’m sure that you’re very close to your students, but there is still a side of them you don’t see. I think that teens are better off waiting until they are out of high school to engage in intercourse. That being said, I do have a question for you. While some issues, like homosexuality and abortion, are ambiguous, how do you reconcile your views about sex with the very clear Biblical message against pre- or extra-merital sex?
marital…geez, I’m an idiot today.
Well, Snowe, I don’t think sex should ever be without merit! ;-) Seriously, where in the New Testament is it unambiguously clear about pre-marital sex? There’s talk about sexual immorality, yes. But are we absolutely certain that refers to intercourse? There’s talk of adultery too, but I have no problem judging extra-marital relations as inherently problematic, as they fail the “Regas test” I wrote about in my other post.
Look, I think most kids are better off waiting to have intercourse. No question. But “most kids” is not “all kids”. And I continue to believe that sexual decision-making has to be made in the context of one’s own unique cocktail of experience, desire, emotional maturity and spiritual conviction.
Oh, and Thunder, I read the beliefnet interview and I’ve ordered the Winner book. I’ll respond to what I read when it comes…
Hugo, I’m with Stephen here. You had an opportunity to share God’s Best with these kids and you missed it. They looked to you for guidance and you basically said, “do what you think is best for you”. The negative, long term consequences to pre-marital sex, physical, emotional, and spiritual, is an epidemic for young people in our society. I counsel people in troubled marriages and many wounds and guilts, for both the men and the women, are from the choices they made to have sex with multiple partners before their marriage relationship, Becoming “one flesh” with your marriage partner is really hard when you’re already “one flesh” with many other people. I know from reading this blog often that you are a thoughtful, compassionate person. If you have a chance I would encourage you to pray through your response and ammend it with the kids the next time you meet with them.
Thank you, redeemed. Please know that I’ve been praying about this for years and years. I wish that I had the luxury of the certainty that you have.
Becoming “one flesh” with your marriage partner is really hard when you’re already “one flesh” with many other people.
Speak for yourself. It’s a lot easier to be “one flesh,” in my experience, when you have no doubts at all about the other “flesh” that’s out there.
The New Testament is unambiguously clear that chastity is preferable to marriage, but I doubt anyone will be scolding Hugo for telling teens to get married.
Normal, thanks, I was in a hurry and I don’t think I said what I want to say.
redeemer, I said something about this on the previous thread, but here it is again: I went to a Roman Catholic school and was strongly taught that sex should be reserved for the sacrament of marriage. Unfortunately, this was taught in such as way that made sex seem dirty and wrong. I was a virgin until marriage, just like they wanted… and I have, in 18 years of marriage, been sorely tested to overcome those deep-seated teachings of “Sex BAD!”. (It has caused strain in my marriage.) From my personal perspective, I advise being very careful if you want to teach that sex should be solely reserved for marriage.
redeemed, please accept my apologies for mis-typing your handle. Perhaps it was a Freudian typo…
Ab_Normal, I completely agree. When we speak to kids aboput sex, my wife and I both tell them that sex in marriage is great and lots of fun, and worth the wait. But we also say that we both wished that we had waited because the struggles that we had were there because we brought those other relationships into our marriage bed.
Ab_Normal, I’m glad I’m just redeemed and not the Redeemer! Way too much responsibility:)
Amanda: you transliterated with a healthy dose of your own bigotry thrown in.
Hugo: “I wish that I had the luxury of the certainty that you have.”
Don’t go there — the martyr for ambiguity. It’s really rather beneath you. Who said conviction or belief was equal to certainty and why would this be a luxury.
Stephen
Fine, Stephen, I’ll rephrase:
I wish I had the gift of certainty.
Sorry Hugo — that was a bit snide on my part. I’ll try to temper my responses.
Stephen
“Honestly, the more I work with you, the less I feel comfortable handing out a one-size-fits-all moral agenda with any confidence. In truth, while I think in general it is better to wait before taking on the enormous responsibilities and consequences of sex, I know full well that some of you are simply ‘readier’ than others. I’m not going to name names, of course! But I can’t help but see you as individuals with different desires and different levels of maturity, faith, and emotional preparedness.”
Hugo,
I’ll strongly disagree with what you told the kids, and that’s no surprise to you. But beyond that point, it seems to me that this statement could be (mis-, I assume)interpreted by kids to mean that abstaining from sexual activity shows a lower level of “maturity, faith, and emotional preparedness.”
Also, just out of curiosity (no attack intended), would you be comfortable with “handing out a one-size-fits-all moral agenda” concerning adultery?
Peace of Christ,
Chip
Glad I could drop a book rec. She spoke to a group at a church I attended and she was really articulate and informed. Enjoy.
Chip, I am glad you pointed out that bit about readiness. Fortunately, in another context that evening, I made it very clear that not being ready for sex was not in any way a sign of immaturity. Indeed, acknowledging one’s “unreadiness” could, I suggested, be seen as a sign of maturity itself.
Adultery, Chip, is betrayal of a contract. It turns the adulterer into a liar — that can’t lead to happiness. That’s different from pre-marital sex by a long shot.
Hugo,
Anytime you get the issues of sex and teenagers you will have people throwing both sides of the debate at you. I think the key to your discussion was that you know these kids. That means they are in Church, struggling with their lives and attempting to walk the journey of Faith. You one statement isn’t the be-all of what they will hear about sex. Hopefully their parents are talking to them about it, hopefully they are looking to the Scriptures about it also. The one thing I will say is this, if you had given them a canned, one-size-fits-all answer, you would probably have lost a bit of respect in their eyes.
One other thing no one seems to have picked up on, is that your Church is attempting to teach kids about sex at all! Most Churches around here just condemn the whole thing and won’t talk about it. Our Parish did a program that was 10 weeks long for high school, and 4 weeks for middle school. It is out of Texas, called “Just say Know”. Very informative.
Kindof an interesting side reading concerning this topic.
http://www.libchrist.com/bible/fornication
This makes me feel better. Now I’ll have considerably less ’sin’ points against me when I stand before God to be judged. Now if I can think of a way to justify some of the other sins I’ve committed….
Hmm.. St Michael.. no wait.. we have one of those already…
Sounds to me like after much debate we all have different opinions on this issue.__The bottom line is that they, (meaning the teenagers)are going to do it anyway.__ They just go over to planned parenthood and get birth control pills.__ If these were my kids, I would appreciate the guidance of an informed, understanding, realistic adult youth counselor rather than nothing at all.__Let’s face it, sex is problematic no matter what, but we also have to face up to the fact that we can’t deny that sexuality is a part of life. __I applaud Hugo for his honesty, and I pray for his guidance on this very important and controvercial issue.
Hugo,
I appreciate all your honesty in this matter. Many Christians would just leave it be and hide theri struggles on this issue. It does prove to everyone reading that YOU WANT TO DO WHAT IS RIGHT. I must say though that I disagree with you. I work with teenagers from our youth group. I KNOW them and they have shared deep things that only I know. The issue of wether it’s ok to have sex as a teenager is always upon our youth. I always find it esier to explain to them by asking several questions.What benefit would you receive in having sex at this age? Etc. We as youth workers have a rsponsibilty as servants of God to these young people to help them in their overall life anf relationship with God. I agree with the other writer talking about the “one flesh.” That is the answer to sexual immorality.
I can tell by the way you talk abouth these young that you really truly love and care for them. I dont think that your doubt is anything to do with intellect. it could be the HOLY SPIRIT speaking into your conscience(I hope this does not sound condemning). Many times I find that when I struggle like this I am making decisions with My Self, not God.
Hi, Hugo. I’m back after 8 days no ISP connection. Folks at the ISP don’t know Linux, so they didn’t know they needed to tell us they’d changed the DNS. Ah, well. Now to your question.
I can understand your difficulty. When these sorts of questions come up with our teens (not often, but more often than in many other families we know), it’s a struggle to come up with just the right words. I usually follow my own mother’s line of discussion. I guess you’ve figured out by now that my family is all about responsibility and informed decision-making.
“It would be my wish that you wait until you’re married, but I’m not naive enough to think that you’ll wait just because I want you to or because I tell you that’s what’s right. You’re teenagers, and hormones are flying. So let’s talk responsibility. You’re the one who has to take on the responsibility for each decision you make in life. Good information will help you make better, more informed decisions.”
Then we talk about whatever it is that they are wondering about, from pregnancy to STDs to (heaven help us with this one!) “what’s oral sex?” (They were 12, 12, and 14 when that one came up! The youngest two and I actually re-discussed it recently.)
I agree with Stephen, only he’s nicer than I would have been. God does not lie. God has told us what we need to know about sex, that is, that it should be in the covenant of marriage. And as if we needed it, secular science tells us about the benefits of marriage, and the disadvantages of pre-marital sex. I have difficulty being certain about my own mind. I don’t trust myself at all. But I do trust God. And in a Christian Church, which supposedly believes in Him, I would expect that the same prayerful entrustment of one’s sexuality into the care and requirement of God would take place. I’m disappointed you missed the opportunity to be counter-cultural. They will get the feel-good message from the other youth leaders. It would have been nice if they had heard the Truth from you.
Hugo:
Teenage pregnancy is a huge problem — 22% of white and 68% of black babies are born to unwed parents. (This up from 3% and 22% respectively in the 60s.)
Among the outcomes for teenage parents — significant increases in poverty, dropping out of school, depression, divorce . . . and aside from pregancy all sorts of nasty STDs.
Pragmatism and concern for the well-being of teenagers suggests that waiting is a good thing.
Finally, to argue that ejaculation equals consent to being a father puts your teenage boys in a very precarious situation indeed.
Stephen
Hugo: “Adultery, Chip, is betrayal of a contract. It turns the adulterer into a liar — that can’t lead to happiness. That’s different from pre-marital sex by a long shot.”
And pre-marital sex for teenagers has a better chance to lead to happiness? In what way? If the goal is a happy marriage and a fufilling sex-life, social science seems to be supporting the church’s traditional sexual ethic.
In addition, many of those who committ adultry do so precisely because they have found happiness elsewhere. Why fidelty to the marriage vows if each individual story must be measured on its own merits? Why is it easier to “hand out a one size fits all moral agenda” here?
Stephen
“Teenage pregnancy is a huge problem — 22% of white and 68% of black babies are born to unwed parents. (This up from 3% and 22% respectively in the 60s.)”
Unwed does not = teenager. Do you have stats on actual teens? Because lots of 20-and-30-somethings have babies outside of wedlock.
To tell the truth, my answer to the question of what I think of kids in high school having sexual intercourse actually is pretty much a one-size-fits-all “I don’t want you doing that.” I say that knowing full well that kids will have sex in high school anyway, that some will be quite happy doing so, and that some will never regret it. And that, if they are having sex, they’ll be better off doing so with condoms (and preferably a second method of birth control as well). But there are just too many things that don’t work well about high school sex. Many people have barely started being friends with the opposite sex, many aren’t good at foresight, many who are just fine at foresight aren’t good yet at assertiveness, and it’s hard to see how anyone is well prepared for birth control failing. I’m not sure what I’d say to the actual youth group, though - I just don’t spend enough time with teenagers to have a good feel for this.
I only know that, though, to be completely honest, I have had maybe a time or two in my life that I regretted not going further (if anyone should read this who tried to argue me into having sex after I said no, no, you weren’t one of those times), I’ve never regretted the fact that I didn’t have sex in high school.
On pre-marital sex, I have several difficulties. On the one hand, it seems cheap to me to condemn it now that I’m married. This isn’t exactly a repentance that costs me anything, is it? And if I’m going to be completely honest - which I ought to be, right, if a teenager asks me? - I can’t say that my experience and observation supports the total horribleness and sinfulness of all sex outside of marriage - at least not in an obvious way. If I say so, I feel as if I’m doing “Reefer Madness” with sex.
On the other hand, you know, waiting for marriage really does make at least as much sense to me as any other sexual ethic I’ve heard. It’s not as if my gut intuitive answer - sex is OK if there’s love - is without flaws. It’s way too easy to make “love” mean something that has everything to do with how warmly you’re feeling about a person, and not much beyond that - and I’ve been down that road.
Bottom line is that “wait till marriage” seems to me to make just enough sense to accept as part of submitting to some other authority - be it Bible or church tradition or whatever - and not nearly enough sense that I’d expect anyone to accept it on purely secular consequentialist grounds (not that one is limited to those grounds in a church youth group, but since it’s a very liberal Episcopalian church youth group, the submission to authority route has its limitations as well).
On that fornication page Michael linked - wow - I think they must have misphrased this part: “This is similar to the Catholic priests who could have many wives and mistresses until 1022 due to its distractions from the work of the Church.” Suddenly I have this image of the Church approving of whole harems for Catholic priests, many wives and mistresses apiece, right up until 1022. I suppose it must really mean, though, that many Catholic priests either had wives or kept mistresses that the Church overlooked, not that each one had many wives and mistresses.
Here is an interesting site by a woman waiting for marriage:
Nice Jewish Girl.
I have concerns about the waiting for marriage ethic. I think it encourages early marriages that are based more on horniness than mutal compatibility. I think it inflates the value of virginity in a way that has to hurt people who have been good and waited but nevertheless end up divorcing. These are not huge tragedies, necessarily, but it’s a concern for me.
> On pre-marital sex, I have several difficulties. On the one hand, it seems
> cheap to me to condemn it now that I’m married. This isn’t exactly a
> repentance that costs me anything, is it? And if I’m going to be completely
> honest - which I ought to be, right, if a teenager asks me? - I can’t say
> that my experience and observation supports the total horribleness and
> sinfulness of all sex outside of marriage - at least not in an obvious way.
> If I say so, I feel as if I’m doing “Reefer Madness” with sex.
As a woman who *thought* she was going to wait until marriage, then didn’t, then married *that* guy for all the wrong reasons (including thinking I’d wind up never having children if I didn’t get married soon - at the ripe old age of 21, no less!), then wound up divorced 10 years later, then a single mom for a few years, and now in a blended family and becoming more “conservative” (I really dislike using that word! it has too many different meanings for different people), I’ve got a bit of experience to pull from when approaching this issue with teens. The teens I know seem to value an honest approach based on experience in addition to Biblical teachings.
Of course, it’s also fun to watch their faces when they suddenly realize that the lady who’s usually wearing a dress and headcovering hasn’t *always* lived this way. ;-)
Wow, Hugo, tough situation. I appreciate your honesty here about the very real moral responsibilites and struggles that come whenever we’re in leadership.
I’m wondering if you “blog on request.” I would be fascinated to hear how your sexual ethic transitioned from “sex as long as there is love and respect” to “abstinence until marriage” to something in between those two now. As someone who’s grown up in evangelicalism all my life I’ve by and large only ever heard the logic and reasoning of the abstinence crowd in the church. All that to say I would be very interested to hear the reasoning and spiritual wisdom from a different segment of the church.
Can I just point out, folks, that my remarks to the kids were the START of our conversation, not the end?
Much wonderfulness in the comments here on which to reflect. Thanks, friends!
After reading Stephen and John all question of if your answer was right has faded from my mind … you gave the best answer for that particular group of kids at that moment. It seems to me that we need to empower kids to make the right decisions, help them find and process the information they need, and then trust them. Thinking back to my teen years, when allowed the opportunity to make the “right” decision, I usually did; though I was fortunate to have parents who understood that what they wanted and what was “right” for me were not always the same. However, when told what to do, I generally tried hard to find a way to do the opposite.
Hugo, you trusted your teens, that’s a good thing. I assume, given that this is a church group, that you know these kids well, and that you obviously care for them deeply, that over time you have touched their lives in terms of scripture, morality, decision making, etc. In other words, you’ve given them a foundation for good decision making, now you’ve give them permission to put that foundation to work.
Grace & Peace,
To tell the truth, my answer to the question of what I think of kids in high school having sexual intercourse actually is pretty much a one-size-fits-all “I don’t want you doing that.”
That’s not a reason that teenagers are going to accept as valid, and that’s the problem–we have to tell them why they should wait. Adults’ discomfort is not a good enough reason (nor, really, should it be).
Very interesting discussion…
Hugo, I’m in a very similar situation to you - one of a youth ministry team at an Episcopal Church. We’re about to do our annual Sex, Drugs and Rock n’ Roll month of topics (always a great tim e for our youth to invite friends…) so this is particularly timely and it’s a place we’ve been exploring for a few years.
One thing we like to do is give a perspective from the point of view of each of the adults working with youth. We have some who were abstinent until marriage and some who, uh, weren’t. It works well because youth are encouraged by the former - that it’s possible, and the latter stories (without any graphic details, of course) are an avenue into the many reasons why sex outside of marriage is a lot more complicated and painful than they think.
The fact that adults are willing to share their own stories is huge.
And just to address the biblical position - when marriages were arranged and women were married off in their early teens, being a virgin at marriage was imperative. There was a never a time in bibical times when marriage was a free choice between equals and people waited until their twenties and even thirties and forties to get married for the first time.
It’s not that the bible can’t provide some guiding principles, but to simply say that “this is what the bible says QED” is not a viable proposition.
Peace to you - I look forward to more discussion and I may well post in a couple of weeks on how the discussion goes in our group.
I’ve been reading for quite awhile, but never commented. Thanks for an interesting, thoughtful blog.
I agree that your answer would make the youth more likely to think deeply about the issues and their own maturity levels, but it occurred to me that if I were in your situation, I might have added, without mention of “right” and “wrong”, that I felt anxious.
I remember feeling very mature as a high school student, and I think that many adults would have agreed (comparatively). Yet, as I now transition into the “real world”, I look back at myself and realize I was still a child (maybe I still am). I think about how easy it was, and is, to fool myself, and wonder if it’s not the same for others.
I have a friend who was in a serious sexual relationship during high school and part of college, which we all assumed would end in marriage. However, they broke up, and she only recently started another relationship after 2 years. She’s told me several times that when she looks back at that first relationship, it was characterized by manipulation. Until now, she’d never known that love and dating weren’t about using the relationship to make the other person do what you want. I think to myself, if adults get it wrong so often, how much more so youth?
Certainly (statistically?) there’s a non-zero number of high school students who are ready to have sex, but I’d venture that the number who aren’t is somewhat greater. May I be a bit presumptious in suggesting that perhaps the fact that you’re still thinking about your answer belies a little anxiety for the latter?
I don’t know, of course. But I feel like I’m in a similar boat, having been raised with “Bible, QED” morals, yet now unsure of what I believe, and hence unsure of the many once-certainties regarding sexuality.
Good luck with the youth group. I’m glad that your church makes a big effort to talk about these things.
I might explain that my perspective of sex as potentially very destructive stems from 1) the values I was raised with 2) that in Hawaii, where I come from, the teen pregnancy rate is the highest in the nation, and 3) the fact that sex did hurt me in high school because I nearly allowed myself to be seduced by an older guy who cared nothing about my well-being - out of loneliness. Far more than wrestling with feelings of guilt, I struggled with societal disapproval. People I didn’t know would harass me. Girls hated me openly, and I think that if the people in my world hadn’t been upper middle-class, I would have gotten jumped at least twice.
Fortunately, out of this I learned not to call other people sluts, and to treat other women with respect no matter what they choose to do sexually. :)
So yeah…I realize that mileage may vary, and that it’s possible for some kids to have sex and not feel as hurt as perhaps I might be.
Amazing how the word “bigot” somehow morphed from “prejudiced against someone due to race, sex, sexual orientation, ethnic group, or religion” into “unwilling to accept doublespeak at face value.” What an odd world we live in.
That’s not a reason that teenagers are going to accept as valid, and that’s the problem–we have to tell them why they should wait. Adults’ discomfort is not a good enough reason (nor, really, should it be).
Ah, but saying why that one-size-fits-all response is my honest answer is something I can’t do without being way too long-winded for Hugo’s comment box. I put my reasons over on my blog.
I’ve commented there, Lynn, but even so–”I don’t want you to” is not something teenagers will hear, as much as adults wish they did.
When I lived in Oregon, then-Governor Kitzhaber’s wife was leader of a program designed to encourage abstinence in teenagers. The Oregonian asked her if she had been a virgin at marriage and she refused to answer. Yes, it was a personal question, but what do you think teenagers hear when we tell them “That’s personal, never mind what I did”? That we’re lying to them, that we all slept around before marriage (as statistics show virtually all of us did) and we didn’t drop dead, so where do we get off telling them to wait to have sex until they’re 25?
“That we’re lying to them, that we all slept around before marriage (as statistics show virtually all of us did) and we didn’t drop dead, so where do we get off telling them to wait to have sex until they’re 25?”
Guess that’s where I come in, huh…
Yes, it was a personal question, but what do you think teenagers hear when we tell them “That’s personal, never mind what I did”?
What do you tell kids about your personal experience, though? Because it’s really hard for me to draw any conclusion from my personal experience of losing my virginity that is at all likely to be useful to the next generation. My personal experience sucked, and I can’t think of any particularly good reason why my personal experience sucked more than other people’s. It’s not as if I can either say either that things went wrong because I was especially young or because I was especially repressed. I just had bad luck. That particular piece of bad luck wouldn’t have happened if I’d waited till marriage, but it’s not a fair or intellectually honest argument why everyone should wait till marriage - because my experience also says that people get their hearts broken and even contemplate suicide over people they’ve never come close to having sex with. I mean, I respect “True Love Waits” as an ideal, but not as a prescription for fixing everything that’s wrong in people’s lives, as if nothing ever went wrong for people who follow the rules and wait for marriage.
Guess that’s where I come in, huh…
Hey, if waiting until marriage is your ideal, and you did wait, you are in great shape for explaining to your children why you’re pleased that you did wait, and that you did not in fact die of hormone congestion.
What do you tell kids about your personal experience, though?
Telling them that you feel like you want to kill yourself over a lost love but that, when you don’t, in a few years you can’t imagine why you loved that person, is (I would think) pretty important. So is telling them why you made the choices you did, and what you might have done differently.
What I really meant is that you can’t tell kids “Do as I say, not as I did” and nothing further, and expect them to docilely go along with that.
Hugo,
I don’t think you were truly honest with the kids. You say to them “the more I work with you, the less I feel comfortable handing out a one-size-fits-all moral agenda with any confidence” and “I know full well that some of you are simply “readier” than others.”
In prior blogs you have stated unequivocally that a man ejaculating inside a woman signifies his readiness to become a father. You have a one-size-fits-all belief that you did not convey to the kids. Since your kids are no older than seventeen I find it hard to believe you think any of them are “ready” to be mommy or daddy.
Perhaps it was the pressure of an off-the-cuff answer, the presence of other adults, your desire to not distance yourself from any of the kids or be seen as a fuddy-duddy, towing your denomination’s line, or something else.
Whatever your reason, it just seems you spoke short of your true beliefs.
It’s not so much that I don’t think my experience has anything to say to young people as that it seems terribly unedifying as guidance for the “when should I lose my virginity” question. I can’t help suspecting that other people have more compelling stories, here. Anyway, I blogged the whole sorry story (not in an X-rated version), so the whole world can see just how unedifying it actually is.
Lynn,
I think that any well-thought-out guidance is valuable. Your answers may not be what someone else sees as the right answers for them, but they are important input for when that other person is making his/her own decision.
From Dave Paisley:
…I’m in a very similar situation to you - one of a youth ministry team at an Episcopal Church. We’re about to do our annual Sex, Drugs and Rock n’ Roll month of topics (always a great tim e for our youth to invite friends…)
I’m too ambivalent to comment on your post directly, Hugo, but this comment sounded alarm bells with me. I would think that a discussion on Christian sexuality would be exactly the wrong time to invite friends: the Christian community needs to be able to discuss their heartfelt convictions with integrity, and without fear of external influence or peer pressure. Youth need to at least be open to the possibility that Christ calls us to something different from cultural norms. Encouraging youth to bring friends from outside the local church seems counterproductive to a genuine discussion.
You have a point, Chris, but it is the long-standing policy of our Wednesday night youth group to encourage kids to invite friends to all events. Obviously, “sex nights” are a bigger pull than some other topics. It would be a major culture shift to close ourselves off to newcomers.
Chris, I realize my comment may have come off a bit flip, but for many kids outside the church community this is a time when they can see what “the church” teaches. Why on earth would you think we can’t have an honest discussion with new (possibly non-churched) youth there? I know we can because we’ve been doing this for years and it works.
And peer pressure can work both ways. If we want or expect Christian youth to go out there and be effective role models for Christ in their schools, why can’t we expect them to do it in a youth group meeting?
As for a lot of the other comments - set in the right framework anybody’s story can be instructive for youth - if for no other reason that an honest story opens the door to honest discussion.
“Hey, if waiting until marriage is your ideal, and you did wait, you are in great shape for explaining to your children why you’re pleased that you did wait, and that you did not in fact die of hormone congestion.”
Well, therein lies the rub. These days, me saying I’m not interested in sex means others aren’t interested in ME, which more often leads to dying alone than it does to a life of marriage and progeny. Life has its trade-offs, I guess…
bmmg39, there are certain assets to the way you are handling things. You don’t have to deal with any octupi, except for those who want a challenge. You’re weeding out a ton of jerks. There actually *are* other folks out there who have priorities other than having sex.
These days, me saying I’m not interested in sex means others aren’t interested in ME, which more often leads to dying alone than it does to a life of marriage and progeny.
Unless you’ve been told by a physician that you have only a few months in which to live, I wouldn’t give up on finding a life partner just yet. :)
“Unless you’ve been told by a physician that you have only a few months in which to live, I wouldn’t give up on finding a life partner just yet. :) ”
I didn’t mean to mislead. I’ve never dated, and so I don’t have the horror stories that that other dude had about relationships going off the tracks because he wasn’t looking for sex. I’m really just making a point about society, that people don’t know what to make of a person who’s not interested in sex, and they REALLY don’t know what to do if that person’s a straight male, which I am…