Comments on: Some quick thoughts on Mary Kay and Vili

By: mythago

mythago — Sun, 05 Jun 2005 14:10:18 +0000

Haven’t you realized yet that blanket statements will get you in hot water in discussions

Of course he has. There’s a certain brand of MRA who never got over dipping the girls’ pigtails in the inkwell, so to speak. That’s why they post inflammatory statements and insist on levels of proof they themselves don’t follow. They just want to try and get the girls in a tizzy.

By: Kirsty

Kirsty — Sun, 05 Jun 2005 06:16:38 +0000

Catriona
I’ll pass on the gory pics. I did however formerly have a game that let you play the part of a deer armed with an Uzi, the object of the game being to hunt the hunters. Ah, good times.

By: Caitriona

Caitriona — Fri, 03 Jun 2005 09:11:47 +0000

Yes, they’re herbivores. But I’ll have to send you some pics of what a mule can do to a mountain lion when the mountain lion decides to attack a hunting party.

By: Kirsty

Kirsty — Fri, 03 Jun 2005 07:57:50 +0000

Oh, funny comment to add about the whole milking a steer thing…when I was in college we once got into a discussion in a seminar group about fox hunting (basically one Tory who was pro, one devoted hunt saboteur, and the rest of the class generally anti-hunting but not as strongly). I was happily backing up the saboteur in his why-fox-hunting-is-bad efforts until he started going on about how the horses were so bloodthirsty when they were chasing the fox, how they wanted to rend it with their teeth etc. Much as I generally support banning fox hunts, I did feel the need to point out that horses are herbivores.

By: Kirsty

Kirsty — Fri, 03 Jun 2005 07:50:35 +0000

Oh, and one more thing on the that the MRA’s on the board might find interesting. I know I’m going against the feminist grain here, but I can’t stand the Vagina Monologues. Not because I don’t think we should be talking about issues like rape, body image etc, but because I think it’s taking complex issues and dumbing them down to the point where the conversation becomes pointless. It’s not the message it’s the messenger, in the same way that I can see the points Dworkin was trying to make but I really wish she’d chosen a different way to express them. I find VM to be kind of a female equivalent of the whole Robert Bly bang a drum in the woods thing - overly simplistic and kind of embarrasing. Sorry to get off tangent, I got distracted when someone brought up VM.

By: Kirsty

Kirsty — Fri, 03 Jun 2005 07:42:49 +0000

Mr. Bad,
I have to jump in and contradict your assumption that feminists are OK with the Letourneau situation. Every feminist I know, including myself, is disgusted with both Ms. Letourneau and the media coverage this issue has received. My opinion is that the woman is a child abuser, pure and simple, and the fact that she claims to love the victim and has married him does not magically make everything OK. I say this as someone whose own mother was abused by her father, who also claimed that he loved her so much that he just couldn’t help himself. This is standard behaviour for abusers of either gender.
My guess is that the rather lax attitude of the media is indeed because most people are incapable of imagining a boy/man being forced into sex. And yes, that is indeed a sexist belief, and it deserves to be condemned. I think Letourneau should still be in jail.
However, I’m not at all sure how you can conclude that this is somehow the fault of feminists. It is the culture as a whole depicts boys/men as pretty much ready and willing to have sex at all times, and girls/women as disinterested or reluctant. The two ideas are intrinsically linked to each other, both ideas are sexist, and both are harmful to men and women. Feminists didn’t invent or create this part of our culture, and many have in fact actively tried to change these attitudes (unfortunately with limited success, as the typical attuitude to the Letourneau case illustrates). Hard as this may be for you to believe, not everything that is wrong with our culture is the fault of feminism, and assuming that it is does nothing to help solve the problem. Taking the approach that you’re taking here does nothing except alienate a bunch of people who might actually be on your side and willing to work with you on this issue if you could just manage to be civil and stop blaming them for every single thing that’s wrong with the world.
As far as Hugo’s apparent lack of discomfort with this situation compared to the other one, I’m not any more happy about it than you are, and I do wonder if ingrained gender stereotypes are the reason he initially reacted the way he did. As far as why he seems to approve of the marriage, I’m a little puzzled by that too. I don’t like trying to ascribe motivations to other people, but if I had to guess why Hugo seems a lot more approving about this marriage than I think is appropriate I would hazard that his religious beliefs have more to do with it than his feminism does. He believes that marriage is a good thing, especially if a “couple” have children (I’m using the scare quotes because I don’t think that abuser+victim should really be referred to as a couple, but I couldn’t think of any other way to put it). I would say that some marriages are good and some are not, and that this one looks like a very bad thing for the kid. But then I’m not a Christian, so I’m less invested in the idea of marriage anyway.
Hugo - what do you think? I’m guessing religion may be playing a role here largely because I usually find that on the rare occasions I strongly disagree with you the difference usually comes down to religion.

By: La Lubu

La Lubu — Thu, 02 Jun 2005 14:34:03 +0000

Go to the Census Bureau website. Rural single men who impregnate rural single women do not get married any more often than urban single men who impregnate urban single women. Ok? And that is crystal clear to anyone who spends or has spent time in rural areas. If you never leave your major metropolitan area, it is easier to harbor illusions about how less-citified folk conduct their lives.

By: Caitriona

Caitriona — Thu, 02 Jun 2005 13:58:36 +0000

Mr. Bad,

The difference between your blanket statement and the statement made by La Lubu is that you cited nothing other than your own opinion to support your blanket statement, whereas she cited statistics to back her statement. Then you negated her source of statistics.

If you’re going to ask others for peer-reviewed data, you need to hold yourself to that same standard. If you’re going to negate the statements of others based on their data not being peer-reviewed, then you need to negate any of your own statements that are based on data that is not peer-reviewed.

By: Lynn Gazis-Sax

Lynn Gazis-Sax — Thu, 02 Jun 2005 12:07:15 +0000

You need to get with the reading comprehension program LaLubu. I said that rural fathers are more pressured than urban fathers to marry, and said nothing about the mothers in this context.

Huh? I don’t get it. Isn’t that the same statement as rural single fathers are more pressured to marry the single mothers they impregnate.? I mean, if rural single fathers are being pressured to marry, surely the person they’re being pressured to marry is the mother of the child? And not some other random woman?

By: Hugo

Hugo — Thu, 02 Jun 2005 11:53:55 +0000

Mr. Bad, you might have read this post of mine: All in Agreement about Prostitution, Right?

I tried for common ground, and failed.