It’s a busy day, and I’ve got to get a little run in before it gets too hot. I hope to have a second post up later today, but am not sure I’ll have time to swing it.
One quick note, after a week of relatively long posts. Yesterday afternoon, on the way home from the college, I stopped for gas at the Chevron station just across the street from PCC. Standing in front of me in the line to pay was a young man in Army fatigues. (We have a military recruiting center a block from the campus.) I noticed the position of the American flag on his sleeve. It seemed to face backwards, with the stars on the right hand, rather than the left hand, side of the emblem. I’ve seen that image on other soldiers’ uniforms in coverage of the war, but never been able to figure out why.
So very politely, I spoke up. "Excuse me", I said to the fellow; "Can I ask you a question?" He stiffened as he looked at me, almost as if he were bracing himself. "Sure", he said, without enthusiasm. I wonder how many times others have button-holed him in his uniform in gas stations and check-out lines, and then berated him about US foreign policy. He certainly looked as if he was readying himself for what would have been a familiar tirade. I hurriedly asked him about the flag, and was amazed at the way in which his face visibly sagged with relief. "It’s because we always want to be seen as going forward", he said. "It’s positioned the way a soldier would carry a flag into battle." (I confess I didn’t get it right away, and had to look it up on the Internet when I got home.) I thanked him and we parted. (I had no idea what his rank was, I can’t identify military insignia, but I assume with his fatigues and a black beret he was Army, right?)
I left the encounter feeling oddly sad. I was simply curious, and hadn’t the slightest intention in the world of rattling a man who, from what I understand, has one of the more difficult jobs in the country these days. But it brought back memories of the mid-1980s, when I was a freshman at Cal and participating in often-violent anti-ROTC demonstrations. (The ROTC building was actually burned down at one point, and no, I had nothing to do with that!) But years ago, I heaped my share of terrible verbal abuse at many a young cadet. I sprayed more than one young man with spittle as I railed on about whatever the issue was at the time (I think it was opposition to the Contra war in Nicaragua.) I overturned tables, ran from campus police, and took part in a variety of small acts of criminal destruction of ROTC property that seemed (at the time) to be enormously brave and today seem to me to be colossally juvenile. Trust me, folks, if I seem gentle today, it’s an act of will and a gift of grace that have made me so. I could be a vicious hothead when I was younger and filled with more testosterone.
I wonder if I owe some sort of collective amends to the military. I don’t know how the young men at whom I yelled and whom I called names (unprintable here) reacted to what I did some twenty years ago when I was a teenager. I can’t imagine it was easy for them to remain stone-faced while I — and my fellow upper middle-class self-righteous radicals — directed apoplectic rage their way. Today, I think what I did back then was wrong and pointless. Alas, at eighteen I was at an age when I was indeed "often in error, and never in doubt." I’m ashamed of my past behavior, even though I haven’t hurled profane opprobrium at any one in uniform since my last protest, which was fourteen years ago at the start of the first Gulf War in January 1991. (That story of my final protest — and why I’ve never gone to another one — is worth a post all its own.)
So folks, I’m not ready to abandon my Anabaptist pacifism. But I have decided that I need to do something tangible to make amends for my past behavior. I was shaken by my encounter with the guarded young soldier yesterday, and I felt overwhelmed by a need to apologize to him for all that I had yelled at men like him many years ago. (Note: I could never yell at the very few female ROTC cadets I saw back in the day; a strange mix of simple-minded feminism and in-bred courtliness made it impossible for me to ever raise my voice at a woman. I simply ignored them and went after their male counterparts. Embarrassing, but true.)
Folks, I’m open to suggestions. A batch of cookies? A visit to the recruiters with a word of thanks for their hard work (and maybe a small number of gifts)? Mind you, I’m not a supporter of this current war. But I haven’t always differentiated between the cause for which men and women fight and those men and women themselves. And I’ve got the feeling this morning I’ve got to take some small but tangible action.
I was wrong, and somehow, a debt still hangs over my head.
UPDATE: Following a suggestion below, I visited Books for Soldiers and made a donation. It felt good, as donating usually does. It’s not the end of the amends, but it’s a start. I still need to do something for my local recruiters. Would Starbucks gift cards be a good idea? Or would they worry that it was a joke,with no money on the cards? Much to think about.
UPDATE #2 (Saturday 10:49AM): Things seem to have gotten fairly heated in the comments section, This is understandable, as my account of my own past behavior could be expected to strike many a nerve. That said, folks, it is vital that you refrain from using profanity here if you wish to have your comments remain. If you’re enraged by me, so be it — you’re entitled to your anger. But insulting each other — and using ugly language that demeans entire groups of human beings — simply makes a civilized exchange impossible. If you really need to spew, send me a private email (dochugoboy@hotmail.com).
Thanks.
Folks, I’m open to suggestions. A batch of cookies? A visit to the recruiters with a word of thanks for their hard work (and maybe a small number of gifts)? Mind you, I’m not a supporter of this current war. But I haven’t always differentiated between the cause for which men and women fight and those men and women themselves. And I’ve got the feeling this morning I’ve got to take some small but tangible action.
How about http://www.treatsfortroops.com/
Or possibly: http://www.opgratitude.com/website2/
One other: http://www.anysoldier.com/index.cfm
One thing I always notice is the age of the troops I see over there. They seem sooo young and most of them are the same age as my children. It’s heartbreaking to see them suffering. I think they need as much support from home as we can give them…
Hugo,
This is an area where I, for reasons that I have never quite been able to explain to myself, have an extraordinarily strong and emotional response. I’m of an age where my father would have been drafted for Vietnam but for a medical exclusion, and I could have enlisted for the 1st round in Iraq, but didn’t, for many many reasons. In short, though, I don’t have any strong ties to the military this side of WWII. Having said that, seeing or hearing about scorn & rage spewed at (especially) the enlisted, whether it’s Vietnam or Iraq, always makes my blood boil. For that matter, the recent history of soldiers & marines sent into harms way without the best arms & armor available (see Somalia & Iraq), or shortchanging veterans of their benefits does the same thing. I’m a guy who leans to the left on a lot of things, but making sure current soldiers & veterans get their due is a hot botton issue for me. I did not, and don’t support this war. And there is no silly yellow ribbon on my car (I have a whole other rant about those). But as long as I can remember, I’ve had an almost irrational gut feeling about how much should be owed those guys and girls in uniform. I’m sure the guys at the recruiting office would love some bagels (they’re in a tough spot right now), and you might even run into your friend from the gas station. But if you want to really make someone’s life a little easier while they are away from family and friends, think about sending a care package to Iraq. I’m sure there are lots of organizations doing that at the local level. Maybe the local VFW. Or if you want to do something a little different, try http://www.booksforsoldiers.com.
Hugo,
I’ve never been a proponent of war and have quite often felt that our gov’t is misusing our citizenry who enlist with the best of intentions. Adhering to Anabaptist pacifism and providing support for the *people* who make the choice to enlist are not actions that are at odds. A review of Anabaptist history shows many instances where Anabaptists came under the gun because they offered aid to all comers, no matter the political/military affiliations of those in need of support.
One of my new host-parents is a gentleman who is a Sgt in the Army Reserve. He’s a very nice gentleman, just a few years younger than I am, and knows teens well. I may not agree with the actions of the “company” for which he works, but I can still accept that he is a good and decent gentleman who cares very much for people.
There are different ways you can offer support for military personnel without offering support for the cause(s) in which our gov’t embroils them. One way would be to set up some sort of “Adopt-A-Soldier” program in your church, where families (including singles!) are assigned a soldier to write, to invite home for dinner, to hang out with, etc. Be their local families. They need that as much as do college students who are away from home. Offer them your friendship. Be there for them. If the subject of whatever govt action comes up, it’s OK to let them know that you disagree with that action based on your faith, but be sure to let them know that your disagreement with that action does not taint your caring for the person.
A visit to the recruiter’s station sounds good, but I think this post by itself relieves you of that debt, Hugo. Frankly, I was a little surprised when I read the ‘graph(s) about you taking part in an anti-ROTC demonstration, because I can’t see you doing that.
Just to clarify: I guess what I mean is that you don’t reflect a violent nature, so that Hugo from the demonstration is quite alien and different from the one I read everyday. That’s not bad, mind you - that, if anything, points to the overall change that’s occurred in your life.
Rhesa,
It didn’t surprise me. But then, again, I’m married to a man who participated in Vietnam protests as a teen, then enlisted in the USMC in his early 20’s, then left as a conscientious objector 15 years later, and converted to Mennonite nearly 2-and-a-half years ago. Passionate men put their entire beings into what they are doing, whether for right or wrong. :-)
Passionate men put their entire beings into what they are doing, whether for right or wrong. :-)
Agreed! ‘Course, so do passionate women. ;-)
It’s funny, Hugo, that in our youth (and even older for many) we don’t see the irony of our violent pacifism or abject hatred of those who put their ass in the grass to ensure our right to act or feel this way. Our righteousness is beyond reproach.
Vietnam and Iraq are favored topics but I submit we could not fight WWII today. The atrocities and inhumanity by all participant countries would embarrass and disgust us, especially by what we call abuse now.
Other’s have alreay provided you with some good ideas. Here’s another one with Memorial Day almost upon us:
http://www.usmemorialday.org/observe.htm
As an aside, if you ever find yourself in Washington D.C. I recommend a visit to the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier (aka Tomb of the Unknowns) at Arlington National Cemetery. The changing of the guard is one of the most moving things you will ever see. The dedication, pride, precision, and honor of the guards is unparalleled. In a way I can’t define, it connected me to those who gave it all for us.
Thanks, everyone, for the suggestions. When I wrote this post, I completely forgot we were heading in to Memorial Day weekend!
Dave, I’ve been to Arlington to see the changing of the guard, back in April 1997. I wept.
Rhesa and Caitriona, you’re kind, and you’re right — I’d like to think that those in my life today don’t catch any glimpses of just how much self-righteous rage I had as a young man. I was an angry soul, that’s for sure.
Hugo, I’d love to put you in contact with my husband. I think the two of you have much to share, as far as the life-searches you’ve each lived.
Drop him my email!
But it brought back memories of the mid-1980s, when I was a freshman at Cal and participating in often-violent anti-ROTC demonstrations. (The ROTC building was actually burned down at one point, and no, I had nothing to do with that!)
Thanks for confirming what I believed from the first time I visited your site: you’re a pathetic little dweeb who hates men and who acts violent when he’s in a group. I am not impressed.
But years ago, I heaped my share of terrible verbal abuse at many a young cadet. I sprayed more than one young man with spittle as I railed on about whatever the issue was at the time
That those young men did not turn and kick your sorry ass all over the “Cal” campus speaks volumes about somethings they have and that you lack: character and integrity. You’re a typical Northern California (now transplanted, I realize) thug; you’re tough in a group, but a total pussy one on one.
I overturned tables, ran from campus police, and took part in a variety of small acts of criminal destruction of ROTC property that seemed (at the time) to be enormously brave and today seem to me to be colossally juvenile.
I’m not surprised. You’re a spoiled little snot without any roots or commitment to anything. You simply go whichever way the wind blows.
I could be a vicious hothead when I was younger and filled with more testosterone.
Don’t you dare try to blame your moronic behavior on testosterone. I know the whole purpose of your blog is to try to get more pussy from the skanks who hang around here, but the whole “testosterone = evil” claim is quite worthless.
“…I haven’t hurled profane opprobrium at any one in uniform since my last protest, which was fourteen years ago at the start of the first Gulf War in January 1991.”
Thanks, asshole. My cousin was killed in that war. Way to go, man-hating scumbot!
So folks, I’m not ready to abandon my Anabaptist pacifism.
Your “Anabaptist pacifism.” Your “feminism.” You are a fucking caricature. You just say shit here to try to get pussy. You’re not a real man. You’re a pathetic poseur.
But I have decided that I need to do something tangible to make amends for my past behavior. I was shaken by my encounter with the guarded young soldier yesterday, and I felt overwhelmed by a need to apologize to him for all that I had yelled at men like him many years ago.
Karma’s a bitch, ain’t it?
(Note: I could never yell at the very few female ROTC cadets I saw back in the day; a strange mix of simple-minded feminism and in-bred courtliness made it impossible for me to ever raise my voice at a woman. I simply ignored them and went after their male counterparts. Embarrassing, but true.)
Oh, no. You could never raise your voice to a woman. Never. Here’s another perfect example of how you’re trying to score more pussy by being a spineless dweeb. Does your “fiancee”–if she even exists–know how you act here? I doubt it.
Wow, talk about an angry soul!
One more addendum, Hugo: I would suggest a brief letter attached to the gift card to explain why you’re giving it to them.
Brian, that was totally uncalled for.
The man didn’t actually HURT anyone or bully anyone. He was a self righteous punk-prick, just like there are plenty of self righteous expletive deleted at that age. He’s trying to make amends, and has grown up..at least about this issue. Why be a JERK to him?
Wow, talk about an angry soul!
I’d rather express my anger than pretend it doesn’t exist. I call it like I see it. Hugo’s someone who is not living a real life. He’s living out some concept of what he thinks “life” is. Me, I’ll take the real thing.
Hugo, I admire the way you just hang it all out there on the washing line for the world to see.
While donating money isn’t a bad thing, I don’t think it really provides much reparation in human terms. Doing something for the local recruiting office would be much more personal. Starbucks cards sounds like an awesome idea. A little card attached expressing support would be a nice way to make it personal.
p.s. Brian - you’re the dweeb.
Brian, that was totally uncalled for.
Not at all, Clarence.
The man didn’t actually HURT anyone or bully anyone.
With all due respect, how do you know this? If he was spitting at the men, as he admits, that’s hurt enough. As far as not bullying anyone goes, Hugo’s own words contradict your assertion. He was a thug, acting tough in a large group. I’ve met and known his type. Defend him if you wish, but I won’t.
He was a self righteous punk-prick, just like there are plenty of self righteous expletive deleted at that age.
Whether women behave similarly badly is irrelevant. We don’t say it’s acceptable for women to commit murder because some men do.
He’s trying to make amends, and has grown up..at least about this issue.
I’m sorry but I just don’t buy Hugo’s whole public attempt at appearing righteous. Having lost a cousin in the Gulf War, perhaps I am more sensitive than most about this issue. However, given that Hugo so frequently flaunts his “Christianity,” it would be nice to see him practice it.
Not being Christian, I don’t know the exact text, but didn’t Jesus say something about not paying alms or making religious practices in public, so as not to draw attention to oneself? Hugo’s not posting here to make amends in any sincere sense; he’s bragging about his supposed conversion and how righteous he claims to have become. Why not make the reparations without fanfare and just do the deed?
Instead, he comes here and tells the whole world, “Look at me. See how wonderful I am! I am doing something to make amends to the military. Oh, but [wringing hands]…I just, I just…I mean, well, heavens, I just don’t know what to do to make up for those times when I was too full of testosterone! Oh, help me! What should I do??? Please help me be the wonderful, sanctimonious, righteous Hugo that I have portrayed to you all this time. Oh, and be assured, I would never…ever…raise my voice to a woman. Tee hee!”
Give me a break. If you believe any of his comments reflect a genuine change of heart, well, you’re certainly entitled to your belief and your expression of your belief. However, I remain unconvinced.
Why be a JERK to him?
Clarence, that was totally uncalled for.
Me, I’ll take the real thing.
Apparently the real thing involves plenty of invective and issues that haven’t been dealt with in your life, Brian.
Not being Christian, I don’t know the exact text, but didn’t Jesus say something about not paying alms or making religious practices in public, so as not to draw attention to oneself? Hugo’s not posting here to make amends in any sincere sense; he’s bragging about his supposed conversion and how righteous he claims to have become. Why not make the reparations without fanfare and just do the deed?
In case you haven’t noticed - and that’s apparent with your comments on this post - Hugo writes a lot about his life here. And last time I checked, this was his blog, aka his personal space for saying whatever he wants. You’re a guest here, Brian, not the landlord.
I may have missed something here, dear brother — and as one who still honours the actions you were part of at Berkeley, that’s perfectly possible — but it seems to me there’s a huge leap between pitying and even admiring the working class men and women who are called upon to kill and die to protect the middle class way of life, and wanting to do something nice for the *recruiters*, of all people. Surely it would make more sense if sympathy for the soldiery went alongside a renewed loathing for the recruiters who suck them into the killing game with cheap bribes and false promises?
Me, I’ll take the real thing.
Apparently the real thing involves plenty of invective and issues that haven’t been dealt with in your life, Brian.
Looks like you’re projecting?
Not being Christian, I don’t know the exact text, but didn’t Jesus say something about not paying alms or making religious practices in public, so as not to draw attention to oneself? Hugo’s not posting here to make amends in any sincere sense; he’s bragging about his supposed conversion and how righteous he claims to have become. Why not make the reparations without fanfare and just do the deed?
In case you haven’t noticed - and that’s apparent with your comments on this post - Hugo writes a lot about his life here. And last time I checked, this was his blog, aka his personal space for saying whatever he wants. You’re a guest here, Brian, not the landlord.
It’s clear you defend Hugoboy’s hypocrisy. Suit yourself.
Last time I checked, “Rhesagrrrrrl,” you’re a guest here as much as I am; you’re no landlord. So unless Hugoboy has appointed you as some kind of feminist thug “enforcer,” MYOFB, “Rhesagrrrrrl”. You’re in no position to tell me what to do or what not to do. Finally, if you want to talk about being “angry” and having “issues,” I suggest you look in a mirror.
It’s fun to watch liberal hypocrites squirm when someone dares to call them on their hypocrisy.
Well, not broadcasting your charity is Biblical, it is true. But so is kindness, gentleness, grace and self-control. I wouldn’t be in too much of a hurry to lecture others on being a real Christian, when you are (a) Not one, and (b) So obviously deficient in all of the above.
And for the record, Hugo’s donation was reparation, not charity. If the offence and the sin was public, it is appropriate that the repentance and reparation be public also. The same applies, for the record, to you and your nastiness. You shot your mouth off about a friend in public, and now so am I doing it about you. I disagree with Hugo about practically everything. I think his philosophy inconsistent, his politics misguided, and his religion infected by the culture, and I am not shy about saying any of the above. Like all of us, Hugo has issues, and to his credit, he doesn’t pretend otherwise. But I have never questioned his passion or sincerity. Or kindness. I have no time for Gender Studies, Liberalism or the religious interfaces thereof. But I do have all day for Hugo. Leave him alone, shut your mouth, and learn. If you hang out with him for a while, he might rub off on you.
Hugo, Ignore the background noise.
I gotta second Michael’s advice to visit AnySoldier.com. That site recommends that you don’t send anything unless you’ve checked the site the same day you send the stuff, as units get moved around and addresses change. Go to the “Where to Send Stuff” section and randomly click on some names. That will bring up an address and a “wish list”, along with the number of men and women in the group on the “wish list”. Last night, I found a dog handlers unit that was looking for doggie snacks along with the usual stuff, and a medical unit that was looking for toiletries for their patients. I also found out Infusium 23 isn’t available at the PX, and that’s mighty popular stuff!
Care packages are incredibly appreciated there. I sent some to a friend’s son who was stationed there; he came home for good last fall. He said the Girl Scout cookies were popular, and so were the magazines. He also said the MREs suck, so canned chicken and tuna get much love (and if you have access to a good Italian store, those cherry peppers stuffed with prosciutto won’t last long, either).
Well, not broadcasting your charity is Biblical, it is true. But so is kindness, gentleness, grace and self-control. I wouldn’t be in too much of a hurry to lecture others on being a real Christian, when you are (a) Not one, and (b) So obviously deficient in all of the above.
Insults are all you have, John. So sad.
And for the record, Hugo’s donation was reparation, not charity. If the offence and the sin was public, it is appropriate that the repentance and reparation be public also.
Nonsense. You can try all day to try to justify Hugo’s hypocrisy and phoniness, but it’s not terribly persuasive.
The same applies, for the record, to you and your nastiness. You shot your mouth off about a friend in public, and now so am I doing it about you.
Now I am doing it about you, too. You’re in no position to make claims about proper Christian behavior. You haven’t exercised any yourself. Enabling Hugo’s hypocrisy, like enabling drug or alcohol addiction, is ultimately extremely harmful to the addict (in this case, Hugo as addicted to hypocrisy) and to the enabler (in this case, you).
I disagree with Hugo about practically everything. I think his philosophy inconsistent, his politics misguided, and his religion infected by the culture, and I am not shy about saying any of the above. Like all of us, Hugo has issues, and to his credit, he doesn’t pretend otherwise. But I have never questioned his passion or sincerity. Or kindness.
I question all three.
I have no time for Gender Studies, Liberalism or the religious interfaces thereof. But I do have all day for Hugo.
Perhaps you have too much time on your hands.
Leave him alone, shut your mouth, and learn.
No, you stop enabling him, shut your mouth, and learn the truth about Hugo, the man-hating hypocrite.
If you hang out with him for a while, he might rub off on you.
If you want ol’ Hugoboy to “rub off” on you, by all means do so. However, I don’t have much use for phony, so-called “Christians” who merely crave attention and pussy.
Boy do I not want to be associated with Brian in any way, but I have to say that my initial reaction was slightly similar to his. You can’t make amends. Any attempt to do so, I think, is a self-indulgent exercise in letting yourself off the hook for behavior that you feel guilty about because you should feel guilty about it. It’s lovely to do nice things for people serving in Iraq, but it doesn’t in any way make up for what an over-privileged asshole you were when you were 18.
I think I’m as anti-war as anyone, I’ve participated in lots of anti-war demonstrations, and I’ve honestly never been tempted to scream at or spit on anyone. The people serving in Iraq aren’t the problem. The people sitting in nice air-conditioned offices in D.C. are the problem.
However, I don’t have much use for phony, so-called “Christians” who merely crave attention and pussy.
Then why are you here?
Hugo, as Sally says, you can’t undo past assholism, only resolve not to be an asshole in the future. It’s not a good idea to buy gifts for recruiters; there are a lot of rules about presents and so forth.
Well, folks, the response here has been most illuminating. Brian, I’m not going to ban you for what you’ve said about me, but I do ask that you be courteous to other commenters, or I will delete your posts and ban you. (I’m editing a couple of your remarks about others, and leaving the rest intact. PROFANITY directed at any person or group OTHER than me will be deleted.) I am curious why, if I make you so angry, do you read my blog more than once and comment so regularly? Is it your task to expose me as the hypocrite you think I am? If I’m really so loathsome, why not ignore me?
Brian, I know my bible well. And believe me, I don’t keep folks here up-to-date on my tithing and giving. But a public injury, as John says, demands a public apology.
John, thank you — your comment made my day.
Pip, you and I have disagreed for years about the question of institutional versus individual evil. I have no brief for military recruiters in terms of their work; I feel strongly I owe them something as individuals. That’s a distinction I’m going to cling to.
Sally, I’ve been honest here about what my behavior was like when I was young. To be honest, though, I don’t know what else it is that I ought to do to make amends for my behavior. If I can’t make amends, should I simply ignore the issue? A life of faith and action has to be about answering the question: “What is the right thing to do NOW?” That’s the greatest of queries, and I’m soliciting responses to that. I’ll accept any answer, except “There’s nothing you can do.” That can’t be possible, I feel.
Let me also say this: Most anti-war demonstrators, like Sally, made a distinction that at that time in my life I couldn’t make. The number of folks who did as I did was small compared to the great number who protested civilly and with respect. I’m copping to my shortcomings, and ask that others — whose self-control and wisdom far exceeded mine — not be judged by my own poor behavior in my late adolescence.
Thanks, folks.
MU
Hugo, it is possible. It’s not the answer you want to hear, I guess, because you desperately want the bad behavior of the past to be undone, for the pain you caused to go away. That isn’t possible, short of finding every single person you offended and personally apologizing.
Wow. I walk away for a day to play outside with son and LOML and the roof falls in. Anyway, Hugo, I am impressed as ever that you are able to keep such an even keel in the face of such a gale of invective (to keep with the sailing metophor). Also, I truly hope you didn’t take any of my comment from yesterday as any sort of indictment (I must admit to a moment of worry when I read update #2 that I had touched something off). It was more a way of explaining why this was one of those rare moments I come out of the lurkers corner.
James, you were the reason I picked books for soldiers; I’m grateful!
Mythago, you’re right that I can’t make amends to everyone I injured (in this or any other area). But that’s not my goal. My goal is to be proactive, and I’m arguing that one can always do something proactive towards taking responsibility for one’s past mistakes. Most of us have our glaring shortcomings, and some of us do try and figure out what we can do to make things right.
Absolutely. But I don’t think that proactiveness works by, say, helping out recruiters or buying cookies for them.
Mythago: A plate of cookies will not cause anyone to enlist who otherwise would not have done so. Are you saying that recruiting office staff deserve no kindness?
Are you saying that recruiting office staff deserve no kindness?
stanton, if I ever accused you of attempting to argue in good faith, I humbly apologize for my error.
But to answer the question for people who might genuinely be interested: Around the time that I was considering enlisting in the Army Reserves, I was mulling over the idea of sending a small thank-you gift (something like a fruit basket or small gift) to the recruiter with whom I spoke, because he had been completely honest with me and gone the extra mile to give me accurate, complete information. I spoke to a number of military personnel about whether this would be appropriate. I was told that, even though the recruiter could no longer have any possible effect on my military career, it would be considered inappropriate, because there are a lot of policies about accepting gifts and he might have felt obligated to refuse it. (Above suspicion and beyond reproach and all.)
“But I haven’t always differentiated between the cause for which men and women fight and those men and women themselves.”
Actually, IMO, it is a bit of a gray area. Soldiers have a duty to disobey an unlawful order. What about an unlawful war that violates international law, is launched with misinformation, along with a not really so new “preemptive” theory of the “just war,” while pulling the US out of the Geneva Convention?
Of course life and circumstances are often complicated, and I don’t mean to suggest that the ordinary soldier bears the responsiblity of this administration for a war that, at best, was justified in the minds of some, and yet, by all accounts except the administration’s, grossly mismanaged from the start.
Paul,
Even though soldiers have a duty to disobey an unlawful order, it is very difficult to do, IF they soldiers know that it is an unlawful order. If they’ve not been educated enough in what is lawful and what is not, then they have nothing upon which to base that determination.
Our children are taught at a very early age, via video games and movies, that killing is OK and justifiable. The natural aversion to killing one’s own kind is muted through desensitization. Students aren’t taught the critical thinking skills to determine whether or not something follows the laws and constitution of the land. A poorly educated populace is easier to control.
Geneva Convention? Is that taught in public schools? I’m thinking that’s something I’ll have to make sure my two 15yo’s cover in our social studies this next year, especially since one wants to do peace and justice work and the other wants to be a missionary.
No heated remarks, simply a thank you for your honesty in posting this. My grandparents come from (and remain) staunch Mennonite pacifists. My father was a Vietnam war protester and my own reaction toward the military as a college student in the 90’s mirrored your account, although I didn’t get into any direct scuffles with the ROTC.
At any rate, as years past I think we’ve actually found ourselves having to confront our feelings and past actions toward the military. One such recent occasion came when my youngest brother joined the Navy, which was quite the suprise — the first Blosser in the history of our familiy to do so.
Here’s an essay by my father on the topic of war:
http://www.ratzingerfanclub.com/Blosser_article_eclipse.html
If you’d like to do display some gratitude for our servicemen, I just came across this list of beneficial organizations today helping veterans coming back home to the States:
http://www.blackfive.net/main/2005/05/below_are_sever.html
I also recommend Spirit of America, which has a number of great projects assisting soldiers and civilians in the rebuilding of Iraq:
http://www.spiritofamerica.net/
Christopher Blosser
p.s. Brian, I understand you lost a cousin during the war and the anger and resentment you must have towards anybody who disagrees with you on the subject, but your language was uncalled for and an embarassment. Who is to say whether Hugo’s public apology for past treatment of our servicemen will influence others to a similar change of heart? — God bless him for having the guts to admit it, and for that I am appreciative.
The natural aversion to killing one’s own kind
You’ve got to be kidding.
You’ve not read Dr. David Grossman’s work, apparently. It’s interesting material. Dr. Grossman is a retired US Army Lt. Col. and psychologist. More on his work can be found here.
Apology accepted I guess, mythago, but I didn’t even know we were arguing.
Interesting, but not thoroughly persuasive. Things like “We all know that you can’t have an argument or a discussion with a frightened or angry human being” (huh?)make it pretty clear that he’s assuming the premise, rather than proving it. If God gave us an inborn resistance to killing our own, perhaps He has some explaining to do re Cain and Abel. ;)
but I didn’t even know we were arguing
stanton, when you make a comment like “Are you saying that recruiting office staff deserve no kindness?” you’re either not really reading a thing I say, or you’re deliberately misinterpreting it in order to start a fight. Neither is an approach for which I have much fondness.
When I was in the military, I and some of my friends who were also in the military were insulted by some Americans. Very few Americans, in fact. I’ve been castigated, put down, kicked out of a couple of anti-military establishments and even assaulted a couple of times.
Many of my friends who were in the military (after Vietnam. I was in high school during the Vietnam war)suffered the same indignities I did. We got over it. Some people act like jerks and there’s not much you can do about it. The important thing, though, is that people quit acting like jerks.
Personally, I wouldn’t do anything nice to the recruiters just to assuage your guilt. If you run into them then say something nice but you don’t really need to go out of your way to do anything nice. They’re just doing their duty.
Now that you’ve essentially shown contriteness, you shouldn’t worry about it anymore. It’s not worth dwelling on.
Comment for Brian,
Methinks thou protest too loudly…
Perhaps you’re the one without any balls to either protest the stupidity of war or shut up and go join Bush’s “great patriotic cause in Iraq” (sarcasm). I suspect you’re the one not getting any “pussy” as you so pathetically put it (and no one here would be surprised that women won’t have anything to do with such moronic machismo). Are you jealous of Hugo and his contrite heart? You obviously don’t have a clue about the root good of Christian thinking in regards to repentance and forgiveness (something everyone should practice BTW). And since my daddy taught me that those who need love/forgiveness the most are typically those least deserving of it, I’ll quit picking on you and conclude with a big Bravo to Hugo’s spirit. As another poster observed, your actions as a teen were understandable albeit misguided — the rage against the machine is appropriate, but not against those poor boys and girls taught to obey the orders of the Commander(s)-in-Thief. Every war since WWII has been a mistake. Those who love to make war are typically those who stand to profit from it at the expense of the good men and women in uniform who are brainwashed into thinking their cause is “just, noble, patriotic and righteous”. The Hitler youth were taught the same thing. The vast majority of Germans are/were wonderful people. The vast majority of our military ranks are wonderful people (there are always exceptions). But we should NEVER send them to die for the United States of Haliburton.
Mythago: I admit to not reading the thread. I read the original post on Friday and forwarded it to my son in the 128th Infantry in Iraq, thinking he might get a chance to read it and comment. I got on yesterday and scrolled down to see if he had done so. The only comment I actually read was yours at the bottom. Not smart to respond to a comment out of context - mea culpa… in context, I see that your point was not about the recruiters, per se.
Hugo, clearly you realize there’s nothing /you/ can do for the particular people you injured, but our Savior can. Surely he can heal them of any lasting harm that remains, and perhaps prayers for them in this vein will do.
“Every war since WWII has been a mistake”
Tripe. I live in the South Pacific, Ellen. We are very grateful indeed for the Korean War, not to mention the Malayan Emergency and the war in Borneo, which stopped South Korea, Singapore and Malaya going Communist. Not to mention the Falklands War. Perhaps you are isolated from the effects of the Cold War, and wouldn’t have cared if the Communists had taken over the Pacific, but the rest of us, who actually have to live here, are very grateful. Ditto Mrs. Thatcher and her justified clonking of homicidal dictators in defence of the Queen’s subjects.
Caitriona and Mythago: Cait, your remarks are the sort of thing I had in mind - the complexities of being in the position of a soldier that make it impossible to draw moral equivalency between soldiers and those who may send them into action of questionable merit.
Mythago: Oh, I don’t know. Seems to me that aversion to killing and the desire/ability to kill somebody are both “natural” - each is a human characteristic, and most of us have probably experienced a bit of each.
I’m a little late here, but I decided to take the weekend off. It’s a holiday. I think.
Brian,
Looks like you’re projecting?
Only because you started it.
Last time I checked, “Rhesagrrrrrl,” you’re a guest here as much as I am; you’re no landlord. So unless Hugoboy has appointed you as some kind of feminist thug “enforcer,” MYOFB, “Rhesagrrrrrl”. You’re in no position to tell me what to do or what not to do. Finally, if you want to talk about being “angry” and having “issues,” I suggest you look in a mirror.
I’m not? Who was the one who came here incredibly angry and willing to crap on everybody else? Certainly not me. I view your comments and supposed insults with amusement, because you clearly have issues, buddy.
It’s fun to watch liberal hypocrites squirm when someone dares to call them on their hypocrisy.
What were you saying about someone projecting? That wasn’t me. You certainly don’t know me, so how do you know I’m a liberal? (And btw, I’m not.)
BTW, it’s incredibly funny to see you dumb down your own responses with your hyperbole and ad homs, Brian. Keep up a great job on that front!
In 1974 I graduated from high school. I remember registering for selective service around the time that the Viet Nam conflict was ending. I knew guys who went away to that war. Those who came back came back different than the way they left.
One friend tells me how he had 20 some confirmed kills. That fact earned him some metals. After the war, while teaching at a community college, he killed his girlfriend. I don’t know why. He didn’t tell me. That earned him a life sentence in prison. He tells me that is confusing to him.
I have another friend who flew airplanes in WW2. He flew 150% of the maximum allowed missions from England to drop bombs in Berlin during the final weeks of the war. This led to the liberation of the camps. He has been able to talk to people other than the men with whom he flew these missions only in recent years. He is in his 80s. He and I both weep when he tells me these stories. We also weep because his daughter-in-law was on American Airlines flight 11 on September 11, 2001 and perished survived by her husband and 3 children.
My next-door neighbor’s Marine Corps sergeant-son-in-law took to group of 18-year-olds into Iraq during the initial invasion. He came home to a party on the block to accept accolades and congratulations. He showed us a piece of tile from one of Saddam’s palaces. He told us later how conflicted he is about the whole war, its personal cost on soldiers and the perceived benefit.
I have walked with marchers in protest to nuclear arms build up of the Reagan administration and the first gulf war. Mennonite friends of mine are proud of their college-age-children who are protesting the current wars.
I used to know a lot about war and my so-called position. Today, I don’t know much except that the world is a broken up place. There is some comfort in knowing your position and hiding behind it. A “step-nephew†showed us pictures from his tour in Iraq over the last 8-months. One of his uncles told me about the “flash-backs†that are recurring for him about his own tout of Viet Nam.
I told some of my nephews that I have commitments from Mennonites in Mexico and Canada who would be willing to house them if they were interested in relocating in the event of re-instatement of a mandatory military conscription. I do have those commitments. My nephews expressed interest. I would do whatever it took to help them relocate.
I would like to hear a lot more public discourse on what, if anything, makes a just war. I want to remain a “biblical pacifist.†Interesting post. Keep it up, Hugo.
During WW II a lot of my relatives went into the military. Some enlisted and some were drafted. Some came back alive and some didn’t.
One of my uncles didn’t go into the military and avoided the draft because he was a conscientious objecter. He objected to all wars. To him all wars were unjust. Nobody ridiculed him or tried to convince him he was wrong. Most people knew that discussing whether or not WW II was just or not was a waste of time.
Whether or not a war is just or unjust is a subjective thing and arguing about it is usually just mental masterbation. For example, I assume the people the Saddam gang were murdering and torturing thought getting rid of Saddam was a just thing to do and I assume that Saddam and his gangster cronies thought the was an unjust thing to do.
When a person is in the military they can discuss anything they want but when the orders come, then they have to go and all discussions become moot.
Glen,
Thank you for posting that. It was nice to come home from spending time with one of my exchange students, a young lady from Montenegro, to find such a thoughtful post.
Many of the teens with whom I work are growing up in countries which have a much more recent history of war and battlefields than does the US - Serbia, Montenegro, Azerbaijan, etc. Thankfully, the recent revolution in Ukraine was a “peaceful revolution.” My Ukrainian “son” didn’t have to worry about his natural family’s safety while he was here.
The most promising news I hear from the Middle East has nothing to do with the factions that choose to arm, including the US military presence. The promising news, instead, is of non-militant peace teams working to bring all sides of any conflict together. Have you heard of the Muslim Peacemaker Teams that the Omams have put together with the assistance of the Christian Peacemaker Team present in Iraq? The Shia Muslims of southern Iraq have put together a team, which has gone into Faluja to clean up the streets and help the Shiite Muslims rebuild. This is turning the tide of the distrust and suspicion that comes from having an invading force in a country’s midst.
There are more organizations such as these working in Gaza and the West Bank. Anywhere that there is conflict, behind the scenes, unseen on the popular media, are teams of people working together to bring about peace without violent means. These people are spreading God’s love in ways that it will never be possible for guns and weapons of war to do.
I see hope.
I mis-typed:
The Shia Muslims of southern Iraq have put together a team, which has gone into Faluja to clean up the streets and help the Shiite Muslims rebuild.
Shiite should be Sunni.
Hugo: I thought you might be interested in what a soldier currently in Iraq has to say. He’s my son, and I forwarded your post to him:
Dad,
I am writing a little essay on this very topic. Please read my essay and then you will have all the response you need.
Please tell the guy that simply telling a soldier “Thank You ” is all the atonement he needs to perform.
Know that I Love you and am anxiously awaiting our reunion.
Until Next Time
Love
Your son Josh
Wow, Stanton. Does Josh have an essay I can read?
I have not received it yet, but I have asked his permission to forward it to you - as well as whether or not he minds it being posted on the internet. It may take a few days, since his internet access is spotty at best.
BTW: It occurred to me that approaching a soldier and thanking him, completely without caveats, might be a more difficult make-up than many of the other suggestions here. And it seems to touch more closely to the original transgression. What do you think?
I suspect, Stanton, you’re right. I’m tempted to hunt down the fellow from the gas station last Thursday.
Hugo -
Black beret. Flag patch on utility uniform. Yep, Army. Wearing the flag for all Soldiers on the right shoulder of utility uniforms went into effect Feb 2004. The Soldier’s answer was basically correct as to why the flag looks reversed when worn on the right sleeve. It looked strange to me as well initially.
DoD employees can accept small food and drink items as long as it’s not part of a complete meal. So, coffee is okay if that helps you make amends. From my foxhole, I might suggest you reconsider your mindset that produces the following statement:
But I haven’t always differentiated between the cause for which men and women fight and those men and women themselves
I, of course, can’t speak collectively for my fellow military brothers and sisters. But, I, and many of my peers, never consider a specific operation, campaign, or conflict as “our cause.” Our oath is to support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; and to bear true faith and allegiance to the same. We contribute in various ways to the goals of forming a more perfect Union, establishing Justice, insuring domestic Tranquility, providing for the common defense, promoting the general Welfare, and securing the Blessings of Liberty.
Perhaps I’m disturbed by my perception of your use of “cause.” The usage appears connected with a specific Administration, party, or political ideology. It leads to perilous situations such as the one some of my left leaning friends found themselves in last fall in deciding whether to wish for “bad” news in Iraq/Afghanistan to weaken the President’s reelection bid (yet usually involving casualties) or good news in Iraq at the potential cost on Senator Kerry’s chances.
This point is not to claim supporting the troops means agreeing with the government. Citizen have the right,arguably the responsibility, to question how (ends, ways, means) the government builds and uses the military instrument of power to protect the nation and its interests. If they find the government wanting, then they should avail themselves of the appropriate and legal methods to change the policies or policymakers.
I believe (most) Americans support the ideals embodied in the Constitution. There are clearly divisions in how to achieve them. Perhaps I’m being too nuanced with the semantics, but I think cause is not the right term for disagreement on the political objectives for using military power, at least when used as you did in the post.
I do also believe that most people are unfamiliar with the powers outlined in the Constitution (Articles I and II) with regards to the military. Congress authorized the use of force (with support of both parties). Congress overwhelmingly voted to fund, and continues to fund, operations (the Administration is generally not allowed to “budget” for actual combat operations). It’s good to read the Constitution every now and then.
Mythago - Most of my peers don’t really agree with Dr. Grossman either.
John - I’ve been fortunate to work with members of the New Zealand and Australian Armies. All have been great credit to their respective nations.