Comments on: Long post on buying the cow, free milk, and marriage http://hugoschwyzer.net/2005/09/12/long-post-on-buying-the-cow-free-milk-and-marriage/ Fri, 05 Dec 2008 12:41:17 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.3.3 By: imparare http://hugoschwyzer.net/2005/09/12/long-post-on-buying-the-cow-free-milk-and-marriage/#comment-44818 imparare Sun, 15 Apr 2007 06:06:48 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2005/09/12/long-post-on-buying-the-cow-free-milk-and-marriage/#comment-44818 Interesting comments.. :D Interesting comments.. :D

]]> By: bmmg39 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2005/09/12/long-post-on-buying-the-cow-free-milk-and-marriage/#comment-19284 bmmg39 Mon, 26 Sep 2005 18:49:57 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2005/09/12/long-post-on-buying-the-cow-free-milk-and-marriage/#comment-19284 zuzu: "Really, bmmg? Do you really think that sex and sex drive are honestly, frankly and openly discussed in this society -- and I'm not talking about all the juvenile jokes and whatnot, I'm talking about facts and emotions." So am I. Just about every mainstream magazine now boasts a "sex issue," even a BIKING magazine, for heaven's sake. The issues that aren't the "sex issue" make sure to include at least one sex article on the cover. (The other ways to show affection, of course, are not given anywhere close to this much attention.) It is, indeed, a topic quite frankly discussed, and, sometimes, it appears to be the ONLY thing people can seem to want to talk about. "If sex isn't taboo, why aren't schools allowed to teach facts about contraception and prevention and sexual orientation?" Because each of those topics can be considered controversial by many, including those who wish for "frank dialogue" with regard to sex. (It should also be pointed out that one can consider one of those controversial or wrong and not the others.) "Why was there such a hue and cry when Jocelyn Elders suggested that masturbation might be healthy for teenagers? Why was there such an outcry when the MOVIE Kinsey came out, fifty or so years after the controversial Kinsey Report?" Jocelyn Elders isn't very bright. And I remember no major outcry for KINSEY. There are some who contend that Kinsey was a bit of a sexual predator -- I don't have data to defend or refute that view -- but mostly the film flew under the radar screen. "I think you're letting your own perspective get in the way of your understanding, or perhaps you're being obtuse by insisting you don't know 'whatever the frig' sexual incompatibility means. You, I take it, have little to no sexual drive. Say you married someone with a much higher sexual drive who didn't know this because she was a virgin." Have you considered, perhaps, that the reason this mythical person I'm to marry is a virgin is because she, too, has a healthy disinterest in sex? BGSF: "That's why I worry about the no sex before marriage crowd - I'm concerned that those who are not sexually experienced are particularly at risk for not realising that incompatibilities exist until it's too late." They're no more at risk than are those who rely on sex as their sole barometer for compatibility, which I find far more dangerous. Many a person has been shocked to be presented with divorce papers, only to tell the counselor, "I don't understand! I thought everything was fine! We didn't talk much, or anything, didn't do anything together, but we were having sex five times a week!" boy genteel End violence against women AND men. www.vawa4all.org zuzu: “Really, bmmg? Do you really think that sex and sex drive are honestly, frankly and openly discussed in this society — and I’m not talking about all the juvenile jokes and whatnot, I’m talking about facts and emotions.”

So am I. Just about every mainstream magazine now boasts a “sex issue,” even a BIKING magazine, for heaven’s sake. The issues that aren’t the “sex issue” make sure to include at least one sex article on the cover. (The other ways to show affection, of course, are not given anywhere close to this much attention.) It is, indeed, a topic quite frankly discussed, and, sometimes, it appears to be the ONLY thing people can seem to want to talk about.

“If sex isn’t taboo, why aren’t schools allowed to teach facts about contraception and prevention and sexual orientation?”

Because each of those topics can be considered controversial by many, including those who wish for “frank dialogue” with regard to sex. (It should also be pointed out that one can consider one of those controversial or wrong and not the others.)

“Why was there such a hue and cry when Jocelyn Elders suggested that masturbation might be healthy for teenagers? Why was there such an outcry when the MOVIE Kinsey came out, fifty or so years after the controversial Kinsey Report?”

Jocelyn Elders isn’t very bright. And I remember no major outcry for KINSEY. There are some who contend that Kinsey was a bit of a sexual predator — I don’t have data to defend or refute that view — but mostly the film flew under the radar screen.

“I think you’re letting your own perspective get in the way of your understanding, or perhaps you’re being obtuse by insisting you don’t know ‘whatever the frig’ sexual incompatibility means. You, I take it, have little to no sexual drive. Say you married someone with a much higher sexual drive who didn’t know this because she was a virgin.”

Have you considered, perhaps, that the reason this mythical person I’m to marry is a virgin is because she, too, has a healthy disinterest in sex?

BGSF: “That’s why I worry about the no sex before marriage crowd - I’m concerned that those who are not sexually experienced are particularly at risk for not realising that incompatibilities exist until it’s too late.”

They’re no more at risk than are those who rely on sex as their sole barometer for compatibility, which I find far more dangerous. Many a person has been shocked to be presented with divorce papers, only to tell the counselor, “I don’t understand! I thought everything was fine! We didn’t talk much, or anything, didn’t do anything together, but we were having sex five times a week!”

boy genteel
End violence against women AND men.
http://www.vawa4all.org

]]> By: BritGirlSF http://hugoschwyzer.net/2005/09/12/long-post-on-buying-the-cow-free-milk-and-marriage/#comment-19283 BritGirlSF Fri, 23 Sep 2005 03:17:09 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2005/09/12/long-post-on-buying-the-cow-free-milk-and-marriage/#comment-19283 Interestingly enough, the biggest prude I know is an atheist, so although there's a connection between reluctance to talk openly about sex and religion it's not an absolute one. Actually, the guy I'm talking about fits into the category Lynn is concerned about rather closely, which is why he would be a dismal match for me despite the fact that we are very much in agreement in terms of philosophy, politics etc. That's why I worry about the no sex before marriage crowd - I'm concerned that those who are not sexually experienced are particularly at risk for not realising that incompatibilities exist until it's too late. There are very few people self-aware and sensitive enough to pick up on the subtle cues that might clue a person in that there's a basic incompatibility between themself and a partner. Interestingly enough, the biggest prude I know is an atheist, so although there’s a connection between reluctance to talk openly about sex and religion it’s not an absolute one. Actually, the guy I’m talking about fits into the category Lynn is concerned about rather closely, which is why he would be a dismal match for me despite the fact that we are very much in agreement in terms of philosophy, politics etc. That’s why I worry about the no sex before marriage crowd - I’m concerned that those who are not sexually experienced are particularly at risk for not realising that incompatibilities exist until it’s too late. There are very few people self-aware and sensitive enough to pick up on the subtle cues that might clue a person in that there’s a basic incompatibility between themself and a partner.

]]> By: Dave Vargo http://hugoschwyzer.net/2005/09/12/long-post-on-buying-the-cow-free-milk-and-marriage/#comment-19282 Dave Vargo Fri, 23 Sep 2005 02:58:51 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2005/09/12/long-post-on-buying-the-cow-free-milk-and-marriage/#comment-19282 Hugo - I reallly do appreciate the dialogue you have created here and I do wish you great happiness in your marriage. The study that the professor at Wheaton mentioned to me was done several years ago. I have since graduated, but I will try to see if I can track it down by giving him a call. I guess what I was trying to point out is the difference between the actual number of instances of something and the number of people involved in those instances. If I were to vote 10 times for William Shatner in an upcoming election, there would be 10 votes for Shatner, but only one person has done the voting. Another example - I hear all the time about how 7% of the population (i.e black men) commit 60% of the violent crime in the U.S. This stat implies that every black man in America is commiting a violent crime. In reality, its just a few guys racking up that 60% by doing many crimes. Hugo -

I reallly do appreciate the dialogue you have created here and I do wish you great happiness in your marriage.

The study that the professor at Wheaton mentioned to me was done several years ago. I have since graduated, but I will try to see if I can track it down by giving him a call. I guess what I was trying to point out is the difference between the actual number of instances of something and the number of people involved in those instances. If I were to vote 10 times for William Shatner in an upcoming election, there would be 10 votes for Shatner, but only one person has done the voting.

Another example - I hear all the time about how 7% of the population (i.e black men) commit 60% of the violent crime in the U.S. This stat implies that every black man in America is commiting a violent crime. In reality, its just a few guys racking up that 60% by doing many crimes.

]]> By: Lynn Gazis-Sax http://hugoschwyzer.net/2005/09/12/long-post-on-buying-the-cow-free-milk-and-marriage/#comment-19281 Lynn Gazis-Sax Tue, 20 Sep 2005 11:59:04 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2005/09/12/long-post-on-buying-the-cow-free-milk-and-marriage/#comment-19281 Actually, I think it wasn't BritGirlSF that I thought was talking about purely physical fit, but someone else, further on in the thread. I do think that emotional compatibility can be sorted out with varying levels of actual physical activity, but I have one comment on what Thomas says: <i>Where one partner is very open-textured and non-goal-oriented about sex, and the other is only comfortable in a closely defined progression-to-intercourse mode, they may never go together well. </i> I think this one may be particularly difficult, because the sort of person who's only comfortable in a closely defined progression-to-intercourse mode may be exactly the sort of person who has trouble having the kind of frank talk beforehand that would reveal the incompatibility. Of course, I may be making assumptions, since I have to admit I have approximately as much difficulty empathizing with closely defined progression-to-intercourse only sex as I have empathizing with hard core attachment to BDSM. I'd be about as dismal a match for that guy as I would for Thomas. Actually, I think it wasn’t BritGirlSF that I thought was talking about purely physical fit, but someone else, further on in the thread. I do think that emotional compatibility can be sorted out with varying levels of actual physical activity, but I have one comment on what Thomas says:

Where one partner is very open-textured and non-goal-oriented about sex, and the other is only comfortable in a closely defined progression-to-intercourse mode, they may never go together well.

I think this one may be particularly difficult, because the sort of person who’s only comfortable in a closely defined progression-to-intercourse mode may be exactly the sort of person who has trouble having the kind of frank talk beforehand that would reveal the incompatibility. Of course, I may be making assumptions, since I have to admit I have approximately as much difficulty empathizing with closely defined progression-to-intercourse only sex as I have empathizing with hard core attachment to BDSM. I’d be about as dismal a match for that guy as I would for Thomas.

]]> By: Hugo http://hugoschwyzer.net/2005/09/12/long-post-on-buying-the-cow-free-milk-and-marriage/#comment-19280 Hugo Tue, 20 Sep 2005 11:21:41 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2005/09/12/long-post-on-buying-the-cow-free-milk-and-marriage/#comment-19280 Sorry, Thomas; lots of open threads. Yes, I think that theological and personal conservatism often is combined with psychological prudishness. But we're seeing that changing. A new generation of young Christian conservative writers (Bethany Torode, Lauren Winner) has appeared to make frank, winsome arguments for chastity. Sorry, Thomas; lots of open threads.

Yes, I think that theological and personal conservatism often is combined with psychological prudishness. But we’re seeing that changing. A new generation of young Christian conservative writers (Bethany Torode, Lauren Winner) has appeared to make frank, winsome arguments for chastity.

]]> By: Thomas http://hugoschwyzer.net/2005/09/12/long-post-on-buying-the-cow-free-milk-and-marriage/#comment-19279 Thomas Tue, 20 Sep 2005 10:49:00 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2005/09/12/long-post-on-buying-the-cow-free-milk-and-marriage/#comment-19279 No apologizing for using me as an example! I think I have made it perfectly clear that I am comfortable discussing my sexuality in the context of gender, feminism, and social norms. In fact, the reason I maintain my anonimity is so that I don't self-censor about this stuff out of a concern that I might be discriminated against. Some folks might have pointed out that it is the comparatively rare case where someone would not be happy in a relationship that cannot satisfy some very specific sexual need. I think it is very common, though, that people's whole approach to sex is very different. Also, as you say, I think the folks who frown on sex before marriage also are least likely to discuss it honestly and in detail. I posed that as a question to Hugo, and he has not responded. No apologizing for using me as an example! I think I have made it perfectly clear that I am comfortable discussing my sexuality in the context of gender, feminism, and social norms. In fact, the reason I maintain my anonimity is so that I don’t self-censor about this stuff out of a concern that I might be discriminated against.

Some folks might have pointed out that it is the comparatively rare case where someone would not be happy in a relationship that cannot satisfy some very specific sexual need. I think it is very common, though, that people’s whole approach to sex is very different.

Also, as you say, I think the folks who frown on sex before marriage also are least likely to discuss it honestly and in detail. I posed that as a question to Hugo, and he has not responded.

]]> By: BritGirlSF http://hugoschwyzer.net/2005/09/12/long-post-on-buying-the-cow-free-milk-and-marriage/#comment-19278 BritGirlSF Tue, 20 Sep 2005 00:30:11 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2005/09/12/long-post-on-buying-the-cow-free-milk-and-marriage/#comment-19278 Hey Thomas. I was using an extreme example deliberately in order to make my point, which was that what I meant intially by compatibility was not, to put it delicately, a size issue but more about one's sexual preferences in a more general sense. Also, my fear is that the people who advocate no sex before marriage are the very people least likely to actually talk through this kind of stuff beforehand. I worry that they may not realise that they are not compatible until they are already married, which would be a very stressful thing for someone who also doesn't believe in divorce. Sorry to pick on you as an example by the way... Hey Thomas. I was using an extreme example deliberately in order to make my point, which was that what I meant intially by compatibility was not, to put it delicately, a size issue but more about one’s sexual preferences in a more general sense. Also, my fear is that the people who advocate no sex before marriage are the very people least likely to actually talk through this kind of stuff beforehand. I worry that they may not realise that they are not compatible until they are already married, which would be a very stressful thing for someone who also doesn’t believe in divorce.
Sorry to pick on you as an example by the way…

]]> By: Thomas http://hugoschwyzer.net/2005/09/12/long-post-on-buying-the-cow-free-milk-and-marriage/#comment-19277 Thomas Mon, 19 Sep 2005 23:43:31 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2005/09/12/long-post-on-buying-the-cow-free-milk-and-marriage/#comment-19277 BritGirl is of course correct, but one need not use such an extreme example (I mean to say I'm a rather extreme example -- for many folks, BDSM is something they do, while for a few of us, it's a core component of our sexuality). Where one partner is very open-textured and non-goal-oriented about sex, and the other is only comfortable in a closely defined progression-to-intercourse mode, they may never go together well. If one partner thinks that sex should be lighthearted and goofy, and the other needs a serious and emotional mood to feel connected, they may never match well. I do not necessarily say these are things that can only be learned by having sex, but they sure cannot be discovered without some pretty detailed discussion, and not a little self-knowledge. BritGirl is of course correct, but one need not use such an extreme example (I mean to say I’m a rather extreme example — for many folks, BDSM is something they do, while for a few of us, it’s a core component of our sexuality). Where one partner is very open-textured and non-goal-oriented about sex, and the other is only comfortable in a closely defined progression-to-intercourse mode, they may never go together well. If one partner thinks that sex should be lighthearted and goofy, and the other needs a serious and emotional mood to feel connected, they may never match well. I do not necessarily say these are things that can only be learned by having sex, but they sure cannot be discovered without some pretty detailed discussion, and not a little self-knowledge.

]]> By: BritGirlSF http://hugoschwyzer.net/2005/09/12/long-post-on-buying-the-cow-free-milk-and-marriage/#comment-19276 BritGirlSF Sun, 18 Sep 2005 22:42:11 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2005/09/12/long-post-on-buying-the-cow-free-milk-and-marriage/#comment-19276 Just to clarify, since Lynn and others seem to have misinterpreted by point about compatibility...when I say compatability I don't mean physica "fit". What I was referring to was more things like the level of one's sex drive (a strong disparity in this area can create a lot of problems in relationships, which can of course be worked through, but not everyone will have the emotional maturity or communication skills to manage that), or if one partner is strongly drawn to sexual activities that the other finds horrifying. Take Thomas as an example - he's a sadomasochist. If that's an important part of his sexuality, and his wife was completely uninterested in or actively repulsed by S&M, that could create a lot of relationship problems. I can think of a lot of other examples where if one partner is interested in specific sexual acts, and the other isn't, problems could arise. In some cases even the knowledge that a partner is interested in specific things could create issues, even if the partner with the kink doesn't put pressure on the other person to participate. Cross-dressing is one example that comes to mind. That's what I meant by compatibility. Also, I'm in agreement with Hugo that it seems unlikely that people who marry multiple times affect the overall divorce stats all that much. There just aren't enough people who marry 3,4,5 times to swing the overall stats very much in any direction. Just to clarify, since Lynn and others seem to have misinterpreted by point about compatibility…when I say compatability I don’t mean physica “fit”. What I was referring to was more things like the level of one’s sex drive (a strong disparity in this area can create a lot of problems in relationships, which can of course be worked through, but not everyone will have the emotional maturity or communication skills to manage that), or if one partner is strongly drawn to sexual activities that the other finds horrifying. Take Thomas as an example - he’s a sadomasochist. If that’s an important part of his sexuality, and his wife was completely uninterested in or actively repulsed by S&M, that could create a lot of relationship problems. I can think of a lot of other examples where if one partner is interested in specific sexual acts, and the other isn’t, problems could arise. In some cases even the knowledge that a partner is interested in specific things could create issues, even if the partner with the kink doesn’t put pressure on the other person to participate. Cross-dressing is one example that comes to mind. That’s what I meant by compatibility.
Also, I’m in agreement with Hugo that it seems unlikely that people who marry multiple times affect the overall divorce stats all that much. There just aren’t enough people who marry 3,4,5 times to swing the overall stats very much in any direction.

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