Here’s something I meant to get back to.
In this comment below last week’s post on football and fandom, Heather writes:
I am someone who could go her whole life never having watched a sporting event of any kind and be perfectly happy and I am engaged to a man who loves sports. He watches the games, monitors the message boards and goes to as many live events as he can, and I resent it. I think it’s time away from our family (I’ve got three kids and we plan to have a child) and from ME. I had a stepfather who’s interest in sports superseded everything else. We couldn’t make noise while a game was on. We couldn’t ask him a question while a game was on. And a game was always on, and I’ve got some anxiety about my fiance and his interest in sports because of this. I don’t want him to have to pencil me in at halftime in order to get his attention. I know I’m not the only woman who feels like this and I feel like it is a feminist issue in terms of how much undivided attention men think they need to give their partners in order to nurture a relationship. I suspect it’s somewhat like housework - men will tend to think the toilet only needs to be cleaned every other month or so, while the women think it’s at least once a week. Of course, not to compare relationships to toilets. How do we close that gap? (I’m somewhat disappointed to hear that your wife is a sports fan since I can’t use her in my defense! :)
As both a pro-feminist and a sports nut, I’m struck by the important points Heather raises here.
Indeed, it is almost axiomatic that millions of men here and abroad prioritize sports over both household responsibilities and "relationship maintenance." In sitcoms and commercials and on talk shows, we’re shown — over and over again — the classic image of wife or girlfriend trying unsuccessfully to get the attention of husband or boyfriend while he stares, rapt, at a television set. "In a minute, honey"; "I’ll do it at halftime, sweetheart"; "I know, but this is a very important game" — few among my readers have never heard these words in their families, or uttered them themselves.
I was raised watching sports. I didn’t play much, really, until I was in my twenties. (I still don’t think of myself as "playing" sports. Weight-lifting, Pilates, marathoning, cycling — these somehow seem too serious to be referred to as "play", but that’s probably due to the exaggerated sense of import most endurance athletes attach to their activities.) But as early as I can remember, I loved watching sports.
Like many men, my love of watching sports was initially connected to my desire to bond with and receive attention from older men. My Austrian-born, English-raised father (once a member of Cal’s cricket club) had little interest in American athletics, but my cousins and uncles on my mother’s side all did. As a boy, I idolized my first cousin Scott, eight years my senior. My earliest sports memory was as a boy of eight watching the 1975 NBA finals with Scott (our local Golden State Warriors won their one and only title that year.) I didn’t understand basketball, but I knew I wanted to be near my big and wonderful cousin. I imitated what he said, and tried to pick up on the nuances of the game he loved. Even now, three decades later, the way I cheer and lament aloud at sporting events is based on what I heard from Scott, his brother, and his uncle (all of whom were mad sports fans).
Like many families, sports-viewing in our family was an almost exclusively male activity. The women in my large and extended family took little interest in sports. (Beyond caring that Cal beat Stanford in the Big Game as often as possible). But while there were few women to be found in front of the television at family holidays, large groups of men huddled around the sets together. Though these groups were sex-exclusive, they were multi-generational. Even today, at family gatherings, I’ll see small boys of eight or so sitting with cousins, fathers, uncles, and grandfathers. And whether they are conscious of it or not, I know that for many of my male family members, the real joy of the experience lies in the rare sense of inter-generational masculine bonding that "watching the game" produces.
The little boys I see rarely understand the nuances of the game. (I didn’t learn the difference between "zone" and "man-to-man" defense until I was in high school; didn’t understand the "offsides" call in soccer until I was in my first marriage.) But they are enraptured by the experience of being surrounded by men. What makes watching sports so pleasant for young men and boys is that while watching the game, little if any harsh judgment is directed towards them. If a group of guys go out to play a game of catch, those who are less athletic (as I was) fear ridicule, even from family members. Actual physical activity reveals weakness; watching television allows male bonding to take place in a much safer, less threatening atmosphere. I loved that as a child.
Of course, plenty of grown men like to watch sports alone. That need for homosocial approval may have diminished, and their genuine passion for the game is the main glue that draws them to the TV. Of course, many guys eagerly look forward to talking "round the watercooler" with other guys about what they saw over the weekend, so in that sense one could argue that at least sometimes, watching sports alone still has homosocial implications! Think of the extraordinary fascination that millions of men, myself included, have with sports talk radio! (Is this where I confess my enduring love for Jim Rome?)
But a powerful love for sports is not, as Heather suggests, an excuse for failing to do important relationship work. This doesn’t mean that men or women who love sports more than their partners do ought to consign themselves to never seeing important games or matches. But what it does mean is that those of us addicted to sport (mostly, but by no means always, men) will have to prioritize! "A game is always on" indeed, especially in the era of cable and satellite television. I can watch Ecuadorian soccer at 11:00 on a Tuesday night, or catch a good Pac-10 women’s volleyball match on a Wednesday afternoon, or watch endless discussion on the NFL network. But not all games are equally important, and those of us who are enraptured by virtually all sports need to set limits and make compromises.
It’s true that my wife (a former star club soccer player in high school) shares my love of sport, especially soccer and college football. (We’ve had many a discussion this past weekend of Friday’s World Cup Draw.) But while she gets excited about "big games", I can zone out in front of the tube while watching the most obscure sporting events. And I have to be careful not to let my love for passive viewing trump my responsibilities to be emotionally and physically present. So what I do is carefully decide each week what events I "must see", and what events I can simply read about later online or in the paper. In other words, I "declare my television" viewing wishes well in advance, so that I can work them around my other responsibilities to the household, to my wife, and to the outside community. For example, this fall, it meant I had time to watch lots and lots of college football, and very little NFL. Sundays are devoted to church, confirmation class, and one-on-one time with my wife. It’s a choice I needed to make, and given all that I get in return, a choice well worth making.
One interesting thing for another post: it seems to me that younger men today are less interested in sports than guys of my generation. I wonder are interactive video games taking young men away from passive sports viewing? Anecdotally, I hear more complaints from young women about their boyfriends playing "Xbox" than watching football. Any thoughts on this shift?
Hugo said…
didn’t understand the “offsides” call in soccer until I was in my first marriage
“offsides” is an American Football thing, offside (or the offside rule) applies to football (er soccer if you really must).
Perhaps it was a typo, either way I think you need to watch more sport especially football (soccer) just to be sure :)
be well
west
It was a typo, westcoast, thanks for catching it! American television commenters sometimes call it “offsides”, which does not excuse my doing it too. (If you saw the women’s college cup last weekend, you would have heard it.)
I do watch more soccer than American football (thank God for Fox Sports World). I’m a big supporter of Celtic, with a fondness for Newcastle United (been an Alan Shearer fan from way back). And like many folks, I’ve enjoyed the run that Wigan is putting together in the Premiership.
Basically, anyone other than Man U, Chelsea, or Arsenal has my support. One thing Americans do better in all their professional sports than Europeans do: revenue sharing! I love how in this country, almost any NFL team can start the season with serious thoughts of winning the Super Bowl. But in England or Spain, you more or less know who will win the big leagues before the first ball is kicked. That’s the biggest problem with the “beautiful game.”
“it seems to me that younger men today are less interested in sports than guys of my generation. I wonder are interactive video games taking young men away from passive sports viewing? ”
There seem to be a lot of different strains at work here. One is the rise of so many alternative sports - witness the growth and popularity of the X-Games. Where the Olympics seem to grow more tired and stale every time around, the fresh-ness and passion of X-games participants only grow each year. I think a huge part of that is marketing - younger men and women see the over-production and self-satisfaction of NBC’s approach to professional sports, and see that as a turn-off. Another piece is the underlying assumption of this generation that “anything from my parent’s generation is dumb and uncool,” propagated so effectively by MTV and Madison Avenue. To a teenage guy today, “Snowboarding is my generation,” so it is therefore cooler than, say, baseball.
Also at play (and I know I risk sounding a little cliched here, so forgive the generalization) is the pressure put on these kids to perform in order that they a)gain the big scholarship; b)don’t embarass mom and dad; c)live out dad’s unrealized dreams of greatness; or d)become the next Lebron James. We all know the stories of parents going berserk at their kids or their kids’ coaches or the umpire. Instead of enjoying the sport, kids are forced to perform to levels impossible to attain. In the stressful life of the 21st century teenager, sports becomes one more thing to worry about.
However, I think there is probably a cultural piece going on as well. Much has been made about the takeover of the NBA by the Hip-Hop generation. While the NBA records unprecedented interest among the African-American culture, it is quickly losing its audience among caucasions. So, to go back to your initial question, I’m not sure “kids” are any less interested in sports. My take is that African-American youth are as interested as ever in basketball, while Caucasions seem to be pushing in different areas - soccer, snowboarding, motorcross, etc.
And finally, the explosion of television options, and the growth of the video game industry probably has much to do with it. Sports is more about entertainment than anything, and the entertainment options are so much more abundant than they were, including Playstations and X-boxes. And who wants to sit and watch a game passively, when you can actually play and control a “real” (albeit digital) game? Especially when you get to run around and kill your friends and hook up with hookers? Who wants to watch overpaid baseball players when you can watch the rebel wake-boarder do a double flip and then casually offend the establishment? It’s all about the diversity of options available to kids, connected with their patent rejection of anything they perceive as uncool.
Thanks, Dan, much to think about.
What bothers me about X-Games is it all seems so, well, individual. Dumb question: are there team sports in X-Games? If there aren’t, that’s telling.
Nice to know you watch football.
I agree you more or less know who will win, though not always. Chelsea have only entered the top three recently.
I support Wigan too - although only as a second team (Arsenal are number 1)since I also suppport Wigan’s Rugby league team. They are a RL team first and a football team 2nd!!
We get to watch quite a few NFL games on Sky Sports (a sister channel to Fox) and I like SF although they haven’t been very good this season (an understatement if ever there was one).
Maybe we need a draft system like the US, to help the money and players go around?
I wonder if maybe sports are an easy target for people to say you are neglecting a relationship because if you are an armchair fan then you are in and around your partner though not necessarily interacting with them - sorta, well you know what I mean. The thing is, isn’t each person entitled to be passionate about something and have different interests? Unless it becomes obsessive of course.
west
I think a draft system and revenue sharing would be immensely helpful in European football.
Of course each member of a couple can have separate interests — but indulging those interests ought to be done in an atmosphere of compromise where the overall health of the relationship or marriage comes first.
If I were that man, I would run from that engagement as fast as I could go.
I am someone who could go her whole life never having watched a sporting event of any kind and be perfectly happy and I am engaged to a man who loves sports.
And I can chaaaaaaaaaange him!
He watches the games, monitors the message boards and goes to as many live events as he can, and I resent it.
You will resent it no less after you are married. Sports are his hobby. If he quits what he loves, then he will resent you, and what you like to spend time on. And may justifiably demand YOU give something up you love.
I think it’s time away from our family (I’ve got three kids and we plan to have a child) and from ME.
*MY* kids and *ME*.
Um hm.
I had a stepfather who’s interest in sports superseded everything else. We couldn’t make noise while a game was on. We couldn’t ask him a question while a game was on. And a game was always on, and I’ve got some anxiety about my fiance and his interest in sports because of this. I don’t want him to have to pencil me in at halftime in order to get his attention.
Ah, here is the real root. She resents sports. Even assuming stepfather had a fanatical type of obsession with it, it’s no different from the person whose mother drank, and therefore freaks out when anyone has so much as a glass of wine.
I know I’m not the only woman who feels like this and I feel like it is a feminist issue in terms of how much undivided attention men think they need to give their partners in order to nurture a relationship.
If this is a “feminist” issue - jeez. What can be said to that?
I suspect it’s somewhat like housework - men will tend to think the toilet only needs to be cleaned every other month or so, while the women think it’s at least once a week.
In addition to the crickets, the silence you hear is me waiting for the outrage from unfair generalizations. Oh yeah. That’s right. Long as it’s men being slammed, the outrage has to be nudged, and then manufactured, because them darn MRA’s are watching.
Of course, not to compare relationships to toilets.
Why not? You seem to use them both for your own gratification.
How do we close that gap? (I’m somewhat disappointed to hear that your wife is a sports fan since I can’t use her in my defense!
Well, it doesn’t seem like there is a gap to close - I don’t hear much searching for compromise, but a search for how to get “Your Way.”
Seriously, Hugo. This is a train wreck here, just waiting to happen.
It all depends on how you decide to work it. And both people have to come to a mutual agreement, if it’s imposed by one person then the other one will resent it.
I do martial arts 3 nights a week and go to the gym at other times. My boyfriend games, both RPGs and MMORGs- which are notorious time-suckers. But we both do these things on the same nights, which leaves other times free for us to spend together.
We each get to do the things we love, and still spend time with the person we love.
“My boyfriend games, both RPGs and MMORGs…”
As someone who does not “game”, I am at a loss.
Eh. Frankly, I can’t fathom why people don’t get around these issues by actually making an effort to seek out partners who are interested in the same things they are. I hate sports; watching them bores me, hearing people talk about them bores me, and playing them is an exercise in frustration and futility for my uncoordinated, out-of-shape self. Therefore, it seemed obvious for me to conclude that relationships with serious sports fans weren’t a good idea– it wouldn’t be fair to them to be with someone who’s so completely uninterested in a significant part of their lives, and it wouldn’t be fair to me to have to pretend to care about something I’m, well, completely uninterested in. Similarly, I didn’t want to date anyone who didn’t share at least some of my interest in “geek” stuff like sci-fi and gaming, because that’s a significant part of who I am, and a major part of what I was looking for in an SO was an activity partner.
Why does it seem like no one else thinks of these things? It frustrates me to see couples who have nothing in common struggling to hold their relationship together, resenting each other for their differences, trying and failing to communicate, and so on when it could so easily be avoided. I’m not saying everyone should date people just like themselves– common interests may not be a high priority for some people, and that’s fine. But if you’re the sort who doesn’t want too much competition for your partner’s attention and are going to end up resenting him if he spends too much time on stuff you’re not into, why on earth wouldn’t you find someone whose major interests and pastimes are at least something you can tolerate?
One of the great mysteries of the universe, I guess. (Actually, I have my suspicions that it has a lot to do with the aggressive marketing of gender roles, at least in terms of heterosexual relationships. We hear so much about how the opposite sex are all mysterious creatures whose ways we will never begin to understand that we start believing it, and our priorities switch to shallower things like physical attractiveness, social/financial status, etc.)
Keri, I suspect you do have a point. The dominant myth continues to be that “true love conquers all”, and it trumps very real differences in terms of temperament and interest. While love can inspire folks to grow and change, it’s also true that some of our passions are part and parcel of who we are.
Having been married to women who didn’t like sports, and now being married to one who loves them, makes a world of difference. More importantly, we aren’t homebodies — as much as possible, we are “outside” people (except for our chinchilla time). I don’t do well with deeply domestic types (marriages one and three, for the record.)
Okay, well I gotta defend myself here. Gonzman (and others) are making lots of assumptions about me and my relationship.
I don’t have a desire to “chaaaaaaaaaange” him. (A little bitter are we?) I have no intention of depriving him of something he is passionate about or forbidding him in some way of watching sports. As if I could or had the right. My question is fundamentally about the nature of relationship and compromise. If you want to maintain a relationship, you’ve got to nurture it and I think Hugo has the right attitude about it. He knows that he needs to make time for his relationship and plans his sports watching accordingly. I think that’s reasonable. I don’t think zoning out in front of the t.v. or computer ENDLESSLY and expecting a strong relationship is.
*MY* kids and *ME*.
Um hm.
So, I have no right to think about my own needs and those of my children? I should completely set aside our needs in favor of his whims? How does that help us or help him be a better person?
Ah, here is the real root. She resents sports. Even assuming stepfather had a fanatical type of obsession with it, it’s no different from the person whose mother drank, and therefore freaks out when anyone has so much as a glass of wine.
I don’t “freak out.” That’s another generalization. Humans have tendencies. I recognize mine.
Why not? You seem to use them both for your own gratification.
Huh?
Well, it doesn’t seem like there is a gap to close - I don’t hear much searching for compromise, but a search for how to get “Your Way.”
You’re reading into it what you want to see.
As for me not being a sports nut…I don’t think that has to be a relationship buster. People can have good relationships and divergent interests. It’s not that I hate sports - I like to go to the occasional game. I’ll stop and watch with my fiance on occasion - I cry at the Olympics. So, what I may not have said so articulately is that it isn’t the sports, it’s the time (or lack thereof) that men seem to think relationship building takes.
Fair enough, Heather, and we’re all getting a bit off topic here. The point of the post was about the hold that televised sports has, and the importance of compromise.
Thanks Hugo! It was rather ironic to me that people completely sidestepped the whole relationship aspect of this thing and wanted to talk about x boxes. Kinda proves my point. I won’t plug my blog again but I wrote today about my experience at the Gonzaga men’s basketball game this last weekend in Seattle and it sheds a little more light about my perspective on sports:
http://wondermum.blogstream.com/
Hugo –
RPG = role playing game.
MMORG (or MMORPG, i think) = massively multiplayer online role playing game.
“So, what I may not have said so articulately is that it isn’t the sports, it’s the time (or lack thereof) that men seem to think relationship building takes.”
Well is it necessarily true that the men are wrong? I mean the way you make relationship building sound in your posts it sounds like a whole lot of suffering and self-sacrifice and not exactly fun city.
You mean turning off the t.v. or computer constitutes suffering?
Well is it necessarily true that the men are wrong?
When you leave all the relationship-building work to the other person, I’m sure it seems as though it doesn’t really take much work at all.
My own, totally anecdotal experience from my dating years is that I’d tell the boyfriend I wasn’t into long talks about The Relationship, which he thought was dandy. Months later, after an utter lack of talking about The Relationship, I suddenly have a very needy, anxious. relationship-talk-wanting boyfriend on my hands.
“You mean turning off the t.v. or computer constitutes suffering?”
Yeah. “Stop having fun! Work!”
Well is it necessarily true that the men are wrong?
When you leave all the relationship-building work to the other person, I’m sure it seems as though it doesn’t really take much work at all.
My own, totally anecdotal experience from my dating years is that I’d tell the boyfriend I wasn’t into long talks about The Relationship, which he thought was dandy. Months later, after an utter lack of talking about The Relationship, I suddenly have a very needy, anxious. relationship-talk-wanting boyfriend on my hands.
So then it isn’t a male or female trait, it all comes down to whoever is needier and more anxious.
Good post Gonz. I was thinking along the same lines.
I would urge the poster to look up “repetition compulsion.” Sounds like that might be of help.
E
To throw in an amusing alternative experience, I got into sports in order to bond with women. My interest in sports came through being in the marching band, and I joined the band because a (mostly female) bunch of my friends were in it. After having such an intensely participatory experience in my formative years, I tire quickly of televised sports.
Badteeth wrote:
“I mean the way you make relationship building sound in your posts it sounds like a whole lot of suffering and self-sacrifice and not exactly fun city.”
I realize I’m guilty of emphasizing the “work” element of relationship and marriage. There is a balance, though — a certain amount of self-sacrifice and discomfort is essential; if we aren’t changing and growing, we are stagnating.
I can’t stand to watch televised sports. AAMOF, I can’t stand *watching* sports. It drives me nuts. I need to participate. I guess it comes from being a jock/nerd/geek combo in high school.
When the kids were playing soccer, I was asked to volunteer to coach. The next year, I was asked to ref. It got so intense and time-consuming that we, as a family, decided that soccer was going away.
Thankfully, my husband (who *wasn’t* a jock in high school) also is a participant, not a spectator. He’s taught me canoing and other similar activities.
As Hugo and Heather said, it’s about prioritizing and putting the relationship as a top priority, rather than leaving it somewhere on the bottom, far below all the various sports (or other obsession) activities. If relationships don’t take priority, they die.
I’ve an acquaintance I’m now trying to help *save* his relationship because he spent too many years setting his family aside whenever work called. It’s *much* better to put the time and attention in early on and throughout the relationship than it is to wait until you’ve a huge problem that needs fixing. Old habits are hard to break, as my acquaintance is finding out.
this might be a bit of thread drift, but can i just point out that i think the gender stereotype of men liking sports and women not liking sports is tired and inaccurate? sure, a lot of women don’t like sports, but with every passing decade i think that more and more women do (thank you, title ix). i’m a big sports fan, and i know TONS of other women who are too, and yet we are erased from the cultural landscape because we don’t fit the stereotype.
i was out with some friends one night at a bar, and i met a guy there - the patriots game was on, so we were chit-chatting and watching the game. tom brady threw a nice long pass for a completion, but there was a flag. the guy distractedly looked up at the tv and said “nice pass,” and i said, “yeah, but there was a flag on the play.”
seriously, the guy looked at me like i had two heads. he said “i’ve never heard a girl say that before.” i wasn’t sure how to respond to that! “well, for my next trick, i’ll juggle these flaming bowling balls” seemed appropriate.
i dunno. i just think that for every occurence of the stereotype being true, there’s one where it’s false. and i think it’s outgrown it’s usefulness as a way of ordering things between the sexes.
but can i just point out that i think the gender stereotype of men liking sports and women not liking sports is tired and inaccurate?
It’s especially stupid when you realize that ’sports’ is here used to mean ’sports that men are traditionally supposed to like’. Whenever the Olympics roll around, we get the tired jokes about women being obsessed with figure skating. Funny how nobody thinks of that as women liking ’sports’.
So then it isn’t a male or female trait, it all comes down to whoever is needier and more anxious.
It’s a human trait to not feel work needs to be done if somebody else is doing it. It’s also, in my experience, true that both men and women find stereotypical gender roles comfortable (no matter how much they complain about them), and when one person in the relationship stops following them, the other gets anxious.
seriously, the guy looked at me like i had two heads. he said “i’ve never heard a girl say that before.” i wasn’t sure how to respond to that! “well, for my next trick, i’ll juggle these flaming bowling balls” seemed appropriate.
Bwah! (I suppose “And with that look on your face, you never will again” might be a good response too…)
I’m deleting comments that are personal attacks on Heather or anyone else who posts here.
Well Hugo, apparently you feel that legitimate criticism is “attack?” Lame brother, really lame. If we can’t be critical of each other’s POVs, then how can we discuss this? Besides, you’ve let some really harsh criticisms of my POVs stay on here before, so IMO you’re being - how did stanton put it? Oh yeah - “inconsistent.”
Like I said - lame.
Hmmmm . . . I am a woman married to a sports-watching nut, but I am the one who tends to get engrossed in things to the exclusion of human interaction. It’s very hard to pry me away from a book that I find particularly compelling, and now that I’m a blogging fanatic I’m getting some anxious comments from my husband. So, in my limited personal experience, although sports-madness may tend to be a male phenomenon, neglecting a relationship in favor of one’s other interests is probably gender-neutral.
On another issue, sports seem to be an excuse for men to argue with each other. I looove to argue and have had many joyful arguments with men about ranking movies, or other mundane topics (but not sports). Sports seems to provide an excuse for that argumentative male mode of communication.
Nice post Happy Feminist. Quite true that both sexes have their ways of drifting away. Romance novels can be used just like sports. Completely agree with your observations about sports being a useful platform for intense hierarchical discussions among males.
It’s also worth pointing out that different people have very different needs for space. Anyone who knows the enneagram knows that a 5 will require more down time than a 2 or the MBTI E types will need more connection time than your I’s. Relationships is a matter of knowing and loving our spouses unique qualities and adjusting on the fly.
Relationships is a matter of knowing and loving our spouses unique qualities and adjusting on the fly.
And also of picking spouses whose personalities aren’t guaranteed to drive us nuts.
I certainly do not see this as a man vs. woman thing. I certainly don’t like the dichotomizing roles of man passively watching t.v. while the woman slaves away somewhere — all the while harboring emotional distress. Could this be any more stereotypical? Some men like sports; some men like watching sports more than housework or cuddling. And?
Heather, may I ask: Why are you planning on having a child with this man if you already feel he doesn’t spend enough time with the family?
One of the striking things about the comments my comment received is that there’s a lot of assumptions of the black and white variety about who I am and what I’m doing and my relationship, etc. Perhaps that’s my fault to a certain extent for not being more detailed but maybe I thought folks would get that in general, I love this guy. I want to be married to him. No relationship is perfect, this is simply one annoying thing amongst all the great things about him and I wonder if the reason it annoys me is because I value relationship more than he does. I’m not asking “Am I the ONLY one in this relationship who values relationship?” I’m asking “Do I value it more?” Is the balance tipped to my side? There is a lot more complexity to our relationship and to me than is being ascribed or assumed.
I am grateful for the perspective that this isn’t necessarily a man / woman issue. Girls dig sports too. I got it. Girls (like me) can bury their heads in things and ignore relationship too. Got it. My experience (and the experience of other women I know) is that there is a “tendency” for men to be more like what I’m describing. I relate it to what I’ve learned about the TENDENCIES in men and women to communicate differently and have different needs and goals. And the on-going question I have is if women TEND to value relationship more and men TEND to value autonomy more, how do we bridge that gap? Or, should we? Can we learn to live with it and value it? All of us know (or are) an anomoly but there are documented trends. Maybe I should just have said that.
Heather, that’s a very thoughtful and gracious response to some very provocative remarks directed your way. Thanks.
I don’t think people are bringing up the “anomalies” as a dismissal of your concerns, Heather. Personally, regardless of “trends” and “tendencies” and all that, I’m just not sure it’s constructive to approach situations like this from the perspective that they represent some broader “gender war.” I think that often leads to thinking simplistically about the situation, glossing over what’s unique about the relationship and the individuals involved. Admittedly, relationship stereotypes are almost never relevant to my life, so perhaps I’m just missing how it might be helpful to consider individual relationship issues in light of broader “differences” between men and women, but it seems to me that it’d just serve to make the problem seem so huge and beyond anyone’s control as to be totally unapproachable.
Hopefully I’m not adding to the unfair assumptions that have been made about you/your relationship, but I do get a sense from your comments that you kind of see this whole “relationship-building” thing as just another chore, like housework– something that needs to be done, and if it doesn’t get done you’re going to be resentful, but it’s not really enjoyable for anyone involved. Again, sorry if I’m on the wrong track, but if there’s any truth to that, it might be good for you to look at it from a different perspective. What kinds of activities and situations constitute “relationship-building,” in your eyes? Are there any ways of doing it that might be interesting and fulfilling for both of you? Is it possible to compromise, or start small (finding a TV show to watch together, for example) and working up to the deeper, more meaningful interactions you’re looking for?
Obviously you’re not going to connect over sports, but I certainly hope he has other interests, and I certainly hope you two have at least something in common so that you can enjoy each other’s company. I can’t help thinking that limiting yourself to looking at the situation through the Mars-Venus lens (”he’s a man and I’m a woman so we’ll never really understand each other”) might be keeping you from seeing possible solutions. Again, I could be way off, and to be fair I have to confess that this is coming from someone who doesn’t put much stock in the idea that there are huge, inherent differences between men and women. Still, this is what came to mind while I was reading about your situation– take it or leave it.
Heather, You used the word “resent.” You put “ME” in caps. You questioned his ability to maintain a relationship, when he has apparently done enough towards building one to inspire an engagement.
People always tend to use “compromise” in a fashion which seems to presuppose that there is always a meeting in the middle on every thing. Well, as a thrice divorced person - it isn’t. Not everything is 50-50. Sometimes it’s 75-25 over here, 25-75 over there, 60-40 here - sometimes even 100-0 in places. It’s the same thing with compromise. Sometimes it means you lose here, and win there.
The red flag is the word “resent.” I’ll just be blunt: If you think that will go away, or even just stay at the same level, you are living in a dream world. It will only grow, and to get married without resolving that first is as dumb as a sack of hammers. “Train Wreck” is not too harsh; you are begging to become a statistic.
You have to decide if it is a thing you can live with, or not; or a thing you can change, or not.
Again, take it from Mr. 3 times divorced; I may not be a good example, but I can serve as a terrible warning: Love is an ideal thing. Marriage is a real thing. And a confusion of the two, never, ever, goes unpunished.
And as a PS - I have heard many famous last words about how “I’ve thought about that…” All are statistics now, and ones in which I take no schadenfreude in saying “Told ya…”
Hey Keri - thanks for sharing your concerns. I’ve thought of that too - that if I start with the perspective that men and women are SO different that may color all my interpretations of our behavior in that light when it could be easier and more fair to look at it as individuals. There’s also a tendency to look at it as I’m the woman and I have to guard against being a victim like all of us women have been…and yes, that’s a tainted (and yet kinda true!) perspective. How do you recognize that a minority that you belong to has been opressed without adopting a victim mentality?
And just to put the relationship building work thing to rest I don’t mean anything heavy. I mean, a relationship might need something heavy once in a while but I really just mean face time. You know, “How was your day? What did you do? Here’s something funny that happened with one of my coworkers” or something. Staying connected. When members of your family spend a lot of time in front of screens, you don’t get that connection time. And having connection time is relationship maintenance in my mind.
And Gonzman - thanks for toning it down a little. I agree that if one doesn’t nip resentment in the bud it will fester. This will my second marriage and I was one big ball of resentment in my first marriage and didn’t speak up and now I know that that’s a problem - and that’s why I’m bringing up something I resent now. I know I have to say something and not let it fester and so my fiance and I have discussed it - have been discussing it for the last week or so. I never expected him to give up sports entirely, I just wanted him to balance it with other things and he pointed out that he does (he’s great about sharing household responsibilities) and I sheepishly said “Oh yeah” but also asked if he could let me know ahead of time when there will be games on that he wants to watch so I can plan to be doing something else, or to cuddle up next to him with a book. And he was also understanding enough to ask what he needed to do to make me feel important in his life.
I know that there are no guarantees. Marriage is a serious leap of faith - not only about the other person but about myself and my ability to overcome my own unhealthy patterns, but I’d rather try than not.
And the on-going question I have is if women TEND to value relationship more and men TEND to value autonomy more, how do we bridge that gap?
Instead of worrying what groups of people do, we find individuals. It’s really ridiculous to be fussing that your man does A, when you want him to do B. Why didn’t you go out and find a guy who likes to do B in the first place? Having found out that your guy will never do B, why not end the relationship so you can find compatible partners? It’s not as though you have kids yet.
“Men tend to do A” is an excuse for having settled for a poor match.* It’s a rationalization for why he does A (he can’t help it! he has a penis!) and pretends that there was no alternative to a partner who does A (because men “tend to” do A, it would have been nigh-impossible to find a man who does B at all).
Really, you own the problem here. He is happy zoning out ‘endlessly’. He prefers it to reducing his level to something that satisfies you. Why should he change? That’s not a rhetorical question, by the way. He isn’t going to change purely to make you happy or stop complaining–that’s rather obvious.
*And duh, this same rationalization applies to women. Men are just as prone to excusing jerky or simply incompatible behavior as That’s How Women Are.
Instead of worrying what groups of people do, we find individuals. It’s really ridiculous to be fussing that your man does A, when you want him to do B. Why didn’t you go out and find a guy who likes to do B in the first place?
Ah, the essence of the problem! I know numerous guys who do not like sports. Ergo, the answer is, women ought to take the initiative and ask them out.