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	<title>Comments on: &#8220;A game was always on&#8221;: some thoughts on masculinity and television</title>
	<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2005/12/12/a-game-was-always-on-some-thoughts-on-masculinity-and-television/</link>
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	<pubDate>Sat, 11 Oct 2008 14:01:58 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Alexander</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2005/12/12/a-game-was-always-on-some-thoughts-on-masculinity-and-television/#comment-15879</link>
		<dc:creator>Alexander</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Dec 2005 01:42:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2005/12/12/a-game-was-always-on-some-thoughts-on-masculinity-and-television/#comment-15879</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Instead of worrying what groups of people do, we find individuals. It's really ridiculous to be fussing that your man does A, when you want him to do B. Why didn't you go out and find a guy who likes to do B in the first place? &lt;/i&gt;

Ah, the essence of the problem! I know numerous guys who do not like sports. Ergo, the answer is, women ought to take the initiative and ask them out.
 
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Instead of worrying what groups of people do, we find individuals. It&#8217;s really ridiculous to be fussing that your man does A, when you want him to do B. Why didn&#8217;t you go out and find a guy who likes to do B in the first place? </i></p>
<p>Ah, the essence of the problem! I know numerous guys who do not like sports. Ergo, the answer is, women ought to take the initiative and ask them out.</p>
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		<title>By: mythago</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2005/12/12/a-game-was-always-on-some-thoughts-on-masculinity-and-television/#comment-15878</link>
		<dc:creator>mythago</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 17 Dec 2005 23:33:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2005/12/12/a-game-was-always-on-some-thoughts-on-masculinity-and-television/#comment-15878</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;And the on-going question I have is if women TEND to value relationship more and men TEND to value autonomy more, how do we bridge that gap?&lt;/i&gt;

Instead of worrying what groups of people do, we find individuals. It's really ridiculous to be fussing that your man does A, when you want him to do B. Why didn't you go out and find a guy who likes to do B in the first place?  Having found out that your guy will never do B, why not end the relationship so you can find compatible partners? It's not as though you have kids yet.

"Men tend to do A" is an excuse for having settled for a poor match.* It's a rationalization for why he does A (he can't help it! he has a penis!) and pretends that there was no alternative to a partner who does A (because men "tend to" do A, it would have been nigh-impossible to find a man who does B at all). 

Really, you own the problem here. He is happy zoning out 'endlessly'. He prefers it to reducing his level to something that satisfies you. Why should he change? That's not a rhetorical question, by the way. He isn't going to change purely to make you happy or stop complaining--that's rather obvious. 



*And duh, this same rationalization applies to women. Men are just as prone to excusing jerky or simply incompatible behavior as That's How Women Are.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>And the on-going question I have is if women TEND to value relationship more and men TEND to value autonomy more, how do we bridge that gap?</i></p>
<p>Instead of worrying what groups of people do, we find individuals. It&#8217;s really ridiculous to be fussing that your man does A, when you want him to do B. Why didn&#8217;t you go out and find a guy who likes to do B in the first place?  Having found out that your guy will never do B, why not end the relationship so you can find compatible partners? It&#8217;s not as though you have kids yet.</p>
<p>&#8220;Men tend to do A&#8221; is an excuse for having settled for a poor match.* It&#8217;s a rationalization for why he does A (he can&#8217;t help it! he has a penis!) and pretends that there was no alternative to a partner who does A (because men &#8220;tend to&#8221; do A, it would have been nigh-impossible to find a man who does B at all). </p>
<p>Really, you own the problem here. He is happy zoning out &#8216;endlessly&#8217;. He prefers it to reducing his level to something that satisfies you. Why should he change? That&#8217;s not a rhetorical question, by the way. He isn&#8217;t going to change purely to make you happy or stop complaining&#8211;that&#8217;s rather obvious. </p>
<p>*And duh, this same rationalization applies to women. Men are just as prone to excusing jerky or simply incompatible behavior as That&#8217;s How Women Are.</p>
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		<title>By: Heather</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2005/12/12/a-game-was-always-on-some-thoughts-on-masculinity-and-television/#comment-15877</link>
		<dc:creator>Heather</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Dec 2005 21:00:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2005/12/12/a-game-was-always-on-some-thoughts-on-masculinity-and-television/#comment-15877</guid>
		<description>Hey Keri - thanks for sharing your concerns. I've thought of that too - that if I start with the perspective that men and women are SO different that may color all my interpretations of our behavior in that light when it could be easier and more fair to look at it as individuals. There's also a tendency to look at it as I'm the woman and I have to guard against being a victim like all of us women have been...and yes, that's a tainted (and yet kinda true!) perspective. How do you recognize that a minority that you belong to has been opressed without adopting a victim mentality? 

And just to put the relationship building work thing to rest I don't mean anything heavy. I mean, a relationship might need something heavy once in a while but I really just mean face time. You know, "How was your day? What did you do? Here's something funny that happened with one of my coworkers" or something. Staying connected. When members of your family spend a lot of time in front of screens, you don't get that connection time. And having connection time is relationship maintenance in my mind.

And Gonzman - thanks for toning it down a little. I agree that if one doesn't nip resentment in the bud it will fester. This will my second marriage and I was one big ball of resentment in my first marriage and didn't speak up and now I know that that's a problem - and that's why I'm bringing up something I resent now. I know I have to say something and not let it fester and so my fiance and I have discussed it - have been discussing it for the last week or so. I never expected him to give up sports entirely, I just wanted him to balance it with other things and he pointed out that he does (he's great about sharing household responsibilities) and I sheepishly said "Oh yeah" but also asked if he could let me know ahead of time when there will be games on that he wants to watch so I can plan to be doing something else, or to cuddle up next to him with a book. And he was also understanding enough to ask what he needed to do to make me feel important in his life. 

I know that there are no guarantees. Marriage is a serious leap of faith - not only about the other person but about myself and my ability to overcome my own unhealthy patterns, but I'd rather try than not.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hey Keri - thanks for sharing your concerns. I&#8217;ve thought of that too - that if I start with the perspective that men and women are SO different that may color all my interpretations of our behavior in that light when it could be easier and more fair to look at it as individuals. There&#8217;s also a tendency to look at it as I&#8217;m the woman and I have to guard against being a victim like all of us women have been&#8230;and yes, that&#8217;s a tainted (and yet kinda true!) perspective. How do you recognize that a minority that you belong to has been opressed without adopting a victim mentality? </p>
<p>And just to put the relationship building work thing to rest I don&#8217;t mean anything heavy. I mean, a relationship might need something heavy once in a while but I really just mean face time. You know, &#8220;How was your day? What did you do? Here&#8217;s something funny that happened with one of my coworkers&#8221; or something. Staying connected. When members of your family spend a lot of time in front of screens, you don&#8217;t get that connection time. And having connection time is relationship maintenance in my mind.</p>
<p>And Gonzman - thanks for toning it down a little. I agree that if one doesn&#8217;t nip resentment in the bud it will fester. This will my second marriage and I was one big ball of resentment in my first marriage and didn&#8217;t speak up and now I know that that&#8217;s a problem - and that&#8217;s why I&#8217;m bringing up something I resent now. I know I have to say something and not let it fester and so my fiance and I have discussed it - have been discussing it for the last week or so. I never expected him to give up sports entirely, I just wanted him to balance it with other things and he pointed out that he does (he&#8217;s great about sharing household responsibilities) and I sheepishly said &#8220;Oh yeah&#8221; but also asked if he could let me know ahead of time when there will be games on that he wants to watch so I can plan to be doing something else, or to cuddle up next to him with a book. And he was also understanding enough to ask what he needed to do to make me feel important in his life. </p>
<p>I know that there are no guarantees. Marriage is a serious leap of faith - not only about the other person but about myself and my ability to overcome my own unhealthy patterns, but I&#8217;d rather try than not.</p>
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		<title>By: The Gonzman</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2005/12/12/a-game-was-always-on-some-thoughts-on-masculinity-and-television/#comment-15876</link>
		<dc:creator>The Gonzman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Dec 2005 19:26:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2005/12/12/a-game-was-always-on-some-thoughts-on-masculinity-and-television/#comment-15876</guid>
		<description>Heather, You used the word "resent."  You put "ME" in caps.  You questioned his ability to maintain a relationship, when he has apparently done enough towards building one to inspire an engagement.

People always tend to use "compromise" in a fashion which seems to presuppose that there is always a meeting in the middle on every thing.  Well, as a thrice divorced person - it isn't.  Not everything is 50-50.  Sometimes it's 75-25 over here, 25-75 over there, 60-40 here - sometimes even 100-0 in places.  It's the same thing with compromise.  Sometimes it means you lose here, and win there.

The red flag is the word "resent."  I'll just be blunt:  If you think that will go away, or even just stay at the same level, you are living in a dream world.  It will only grow, and to get married without resolving that first is as dumb as a sack of hammers.  "Train Wreck" is not too harsh; you are begging to become a statistic.

You have to decide if it is a thing you can live with, or not; or a thing you can change, or not.

Again, take it from Mr. 3 times divorced; I may not be a good example, but I can serve as a terrible warning:  Love is an ideal thing.  Marriage is a real thing.  And a confusion of the two, never, ever, goes unpunished.

And as a PS - I have heard many famous last words about how "I've thought about that..."  All are statistics now, and ones in which I take no schadenfreude in saying "Told ya..."</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Heather, You used the word &#8220;resent.&#8221;  You put &#8220;ME&#8221; in caps.  You questioned his ability to maintain a relationship, when he has apparently done enough towards building one to inspire an engagement.</p>
<p>People always tend to use &#8220;compromise&#8221; in a fashion which seems to presuppose that there is always a meeting in the middle on every thing.  Well, as a thrice divorced person - it isn&#8217;t.  Not everything is 50-50.  Sometimes it&#8217;s 75-25 over here, 25-75 over there, 60-40 here - sometimes even 100-0 in places.  It&#8217;s the same thing with compromise.  Sometimes it means you lose here, and win there.</p>
<p>The red flag is the word &#8220;resent.&#8221;  I&#8217;ll just be blunt:  If you think that will go away, or even just stay at the same level, you are living in a dream world.  It will only grow, and to get married without resolving that first is as dumb as a sack of hammers.  &#8220;Train Wreck&#8221; is not too harsh; you are begging to become a statistic.</p>
<p>You have to decide if it is a thing you can live with, or not; or a thing you can change, or not.</p>
<p>Again, take it from Mr. 3 times divorced; I may not be a good example, but I can serve as a terrible warning:  Love is an ideal thing.  Marriage is a real thing.  And a confusion of the two, never, ever, goes unpunished.</p>
<p>And as a PS - I have heard many famous last words about how &#8220;I&#8217;ve thought about that&#8230;&#8221;  All are statistics now, and ones in which I take no schadenfreude in saying &#8220;Told ya&#8230;&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Keri</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2005/12/12/a-game-was-always-on-some-thoughts-on-masculinity-and-television/#comment-15875</link>
		<dc:creator>Keri</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Dec 2005 19:05:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2005/12/12/a-game-was-always-on-some-thoughts-on-masculinity-and-television/#comment-15875</guid>
		<description>I don't think people are bringing up the "anomalies" as a dismissal of your concerns, Heather. Personally, regardless of "trends" and "tendencies" and all that, I'm just not sure it's constructive to approach situations like this from the perspective that they represent some broader "gender war." I think that often leads to thinking simplistically about the situation, glossing over what's unique about the relationship and the individuals involved. Admittedly, relationship stereotypes are almost never relevant to my life, so perhaps I'm just missing how it might be helpful to consider individual relationship issues in light of broader "differences" between men and women, but it seems to me that it'd just serve to make the problem seem so huge and beyond anyone's control as to be totally unapproachable.

Hopefully I'm not adding to the unfair assumptions that have been made about you/your relationship, but I do get a sense from your comments that you kind of see this whole "relationship-building" thing as just another chore, like housework-- something that needs to be done, and if it doesn't get done you're going to be resentful, but it's not really &lt;i&gt;enjoyable&lt;/i&gt; for anyone involved. Again, sorry if I'm on the wrong track, but if there's any truth to that, it might be good for you to look at it from a different perspective. What kinds of activities and situations constitute "relationship-building," in your eyes? Are there any ways of doing it that might be interesting and fulfilling for both of you? Is it possible to compromise, or start small (finding a TV show to watch together, for example) and working up to the deeper, more meaningful interactions you're looking for? 

Obviously you're not going to connect over sports, but I certainly hope he has other interests, and I certainly hope you two have at least &lt;i&gt;something&lt;/i&gt; in common so that you can enjoy each other's company. I can't help thinking that limiting yourself to looking at the situation through the Mars-Venus lens ("he's a man and I'm a woman so we'll never &lt;i&gt;really&lt;/i&gt; understand each other") might be keeping you from seeing possible solutions. Again, I could be way off, and to be fair I have to confess that this is coming from someone who doesn't put much stock in the idea that there are huge, inherent differences between men and women. Still, this is what came to mind while I was reading about your situation-- take it or leave it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t think people are bringing up the &#8220;anomalies&#8221; as a dismissal of your concerns, Heather. Personally, regardless of &#8220;trends&#8221; and &#8220;tendencies&#8221; and all that, I&#8217;m just not sure it&#8217;s constructive to approach situations like this from the perspective that they represent some broader &#8220;gender war.&#8221; I think that often leads to thinking simplistically about the situation, glossing over what&#8217;s unique about the relationship and the individuals involved. Admittedly, relationship stereotypes are almost never relevant to my life, so perhaps I&#8217;m just missing how it might be helpful to consider individual relationship issues in light of broader &#8220;differences&#8221; between men and women, but it seems to me that it&#8217;d just serve to make the problem seem so huge and beyond anyone&#8217;s control as to be totally unapproachable.</p>
<p>Hopefully I&#8217;m not adding to the unfair assumptions that have been made about you/your relationship, but I do get a sense from your comments that you kind of see this whole &#8220;relationship-building&#8221; thing as just another chore, like housework&#8211; something that needs to be done, and if it doesn&#8217;t get done you&#8217;re going to be resentful, but it&#8217;s not really <i>enjoyable</i> for anyone involved. Again, sorry if I&#8217;m on the wrong track, but if there&#8217;s any truth to that, it might be good for you to look at it from a different perspective. What kinds of activities and situations constitute &#8220;relationship-building,&#8221; in your eyes? Are there any ways of doing it that might be interesting and fulfilling for both of you? Is it possible to compromise, or start small (finding a TV show to watch together, for example) and working up to the deeper, more meaningful interactions you&#8217;re looking for? </p>
<p>Obviously you&#8217;re not going to connect over sports, but I certainly hope he has other interests, and I certainly hope you two have at least <i>something</i> in common so that you can enjoy each other&#8217;s company. I can&#8217;t help thinking that limiting yourself to looking at the situation through the Mars-Venus lens (&#8221;he&#8217;s a man and I&#8217;m a woman so we&#8217;ll never <i>really</i> understand each other&#8221;) might be keeping you from seeing possible solutions. Again, I could be way off, and to be fair I have to confess that this is coming from someone who doesn&#8217;t put much stock in the idea that there are huge, inherent differences between men and women. Still, this is what came to mind while I was reading about your situation&#8211; take it or leave it.</p>
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		<title>By: Hugo</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2005/12/12/a-game-was-always-on-some-thoughts-on-masculinity-and-television/#comment-15874</link>
		<dc:creator>Hugo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Dec 2005 16:40:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2005/12/12/a-game-was-always-on-some-thoughts-on-masculinity-and-television/#comment-15874</guid>
		<description>Heather, that's a very thoughtful and gracious response to some very provocative remarks directed your way.  Thanks.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Heather, that&#8217;s a very thoughtful and gracious response to some very provocative remarks directed your way.  Thanks.</p>
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		<title>By: Heather</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2005/12/12/a-game-was-always-on-some-thoughts-on-masculinity-and-television/#comment-15873</link>
		<dc:creator>Heather</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Dec 2005 16:35:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2005/12/12/a-game-was-always-on-some-thoughts-on-masculinity-and-television/#comment-15873</guid>
		<description>One of the striking things about the comments my comment received is that there's a lot of assumptions of the black and white variety about who I am and what I'm doing and my relationship, etc. Perhaps that's my fault to a certain extent for not being more detailed but maybe I thought folks would get that in general, I love this guy. I want to be married to him. No relationship is perfect, this is simply one annoying thing amongst all the great things about him and I wonder if the reason it annoys me is because I value relationship more than he does. I'm not asking "Am I the ONLY one in this relationship who values relationship?" I'm asking "Do I value it more?" Is the balance tipped to my side? There is a lot more complexity to our relationship and to me than is being ascribed or assumed. 

I am grateful for the perspective that this isn't necessarily a man / woman issue. Girls dig sports too. I got it. Girls (like me) can bury their heads in things and ignore relationship too. Got it. My experience (and the experience of other women I know) is that there is a "tendency" for men to be more like what I'm describing. I relate it to what I've learned about the TENDENCIES in men and women to communicate differently and have different needs and goals. And the on-going question I have is if women TEND to value relationship more and men TEND to value autonomy more, how do we bridge that gap? Or, should we? Can we learn to live with it and value it? All of us know (or are) an anomoly but there are documented trends. Maybe I should just have said that.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One of the striking things about the comments my comment received is that there&#8217;s a lot of assumptions of the black and white variety about who I am and what I&#8217;m doing and my relationship, etc. Perhaps that&#8217;s my fault to a certain extent for not being more detailed but maybe I thought folks would get that in general, I love this guy. I want to be married to him. No relationship is perfect, this is simply one annoying thing amongst all the great things about him and I wonder if the reason it annoys me is because I value relationship more than he does. I&#8217;m not asking &#8220;Am I the ONLY one in this relationship who values relationship?&#8221; I&#8217;m asking &#8220;Do I value it more?&#8221; Is the balance tipped to my side? There is a lot more complexity to our relationship and to me than is being ascribed or assumed. </p>
<p>I am grateful for the perspective that this isn&#8217;t necessarily a man / woman issue. Girls dig sports too. I got it. Girls (like me) can bury their heads in things and ignore relationship too. Got it. My experience (and the experience of other women I know) is that there is a &#8220;tendency&#8221; for men to be more like what I&#8217;m describing. I relate it to what I&#8217;ve learned about the TENDENCIES in men and women to communicate differently and have different needs and goals. And the on-going question I have is if women TEND to value relationship more and men TEND to value autonomy more, how do we bridge that gap? Or, should we? Can we learn to live with it and value it? All of us know (or are) an anomoly but there are documented trends. Maybe I should just have said that.</p>
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		<title>By: Q Grrl</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2005/12/12/a-game-was-always-on-some-thoughts-on-masculinity-and-television/#comment-15872</link>
		<dc:creator>Q Grrl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Dec 2005 14:00:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2005/12/12/a-game-was-always-on-some-thoughts-on-masculinity-and-television/#comment-15872</guid>
		<description>Heather, may I ask:  Why are you planning on having a child with this man if you already feel he doesn't spend enough time with the family?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Heather, may I ask:  Why are you planning on having a child with this man if you already feel he doesn&#8217;t spend enough time with the family?</p>
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		<title>By: Q Grrl</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2005/12/12/a-game-was-always-on-some-thoughts-on-masculinity-and-television/#comment-15871</link>
		<dc:creator>Q Grrl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Dec 2005 13:58:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2005/12/12/a-game-was-always-on-some-thoughts-on-masculinity-and-television/#comment-15871</guid>
		<description>I certainly do not see this as a man vs. woman thing.  I certainly don't like the dichotomizing roles of man passively watching t.v. while the woman slaves away somewhere -- all the while harboring emotional distress.  Could this be any more stereotypical?  Some men like sports; some men like watching sports more than housework or cuddling.  And?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I certainly do not see this as a man vs. woman thing.  I certainly don&#8217;t like the dichotomizing roles of man passively watching t.v. while the woman slaves away somewhere &#8212; all the while harboring emotional distress.  Could this be any more stereotypical?  Some men like sports; some men like watching sports more than housework or cuddling.  And?</p>
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		<title>By: mythago</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2005/12/12/a-game-was-always-on-some-thoughts-on-masculinity-and-television/#comment-15870</link>
		<dc:creator>mythago</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Dec 2005 02:19:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2005/12/12/a-game-was-always-on-some-thoughts-on-masculinity-and-television/#comment-15870</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt; Relationships is a matter of knowing and loving our spouses unique qualities and adjusting on the fly.&lt;/i&gt;

And also of picking spouses whose personalities aren't guaranteed to drive us nuts.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i> Relationships is a matter of knowing and loving our spouses unique qualities and adjusting on the fly.</i></p>
<p>And also of picking spouses whose personalities aren&#8217;t guaranteed to drive us nuts.</p>
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