I’m in some noteworthy company… at Hugo Schwyzer

I’m in some noteworthy company…

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Hugo Schwyzer

on December 12, 2005

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29 Responses to “I’m in some noteworthy company…”

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1 Davina
Dec 12th, 2005 at 5:05 pm

Oooh - me too!
2 djw
Dec 12th, 2005 at 7:33 pm

It’s your internet, but if I were you I’d be more inclined to try hard to ignore this sort of nonsense. Engaging polite and occasionally thoughtful critics like Stanton, bmmg39, etc. is one thing, but these clowns are just begging for attention they don’t deserve.

(unless this is a reverse ego-boost sort of thing. I suppose if Michelle Malkin said I was one of the most unhinged of the unhinged liberals I’d feel a bit of pride…)
3 Karl
Dec 12th, 2005 at 8:19 pm

Ahuh :)

I bet you’re super impressed! The only reason any of you are there, is due to absolute inability to recognise two things:
1) men & women are actually equally responsible for just about everything that happens in this world. That means that just because you say so - doesn’t actually make it ‘real’ that only men do bad, or only women can do good. No matter how many times you infer that to people, it will not be a reality.
2) that men can be the victims of a woman’s wrong doings - perhaps manifested differently, but equally as abusive and equally as damaging to a man’s life as it would be to a woman’s. (and let us not forget - there ARE many men who are victims of domestic violence in the most serious form - and although DavinaJ would like to sweep these men under the carpet, they do exist - but it is thanks to the supremacist attitudes like yours that these men and perhaps their children are unable to get proper help, as any woman could.)

However, thank you very kindly for the free traffic
4 mythago
Dec 12th, 2005 at 9:49 pm

Geez, Hugo, why ARE you giving free traffic to somebody who uses words like “mangina” seriously?
5 Labyrus
Dec 13th, 2005 at 1:08 am

Wow. What a moron…

Y’see, Karl, the thing is, that feminists don’t insist that men aren’t victims of violence caused by women just as easily as the vice versa, that’s really not the issue is. The issue is that we live in a society that systemizes and excuses male violence against women. (normally I’d feel bad about opening up an argument with an insult to someone’s intelligence, but seriously dude, look at your website. You use the word “Mangina”)
6 Davina
Dec 13th, 2005 at 3:13 am

You’d think if feminism was really so bad that ‘Karl’ wouldn’t have to resort to making stuff up… I’ve probably done more for male victims of domestic violence than ‘Karl’ has ever done and with the exception of a handful of men, my colleagues have all been women - and - gasp! - feminists as well.

Do try to stick to the facts instead of attacking strawfeminists.
7 Mr. Bad
Dec 13th, 2005 at 7:40 am

Labyrus wrote: “Y’see, Karl, the thing is, that feminists don’t insist that men aren’t victims of violence caused by women just as easily as the vice versa, that’s really not the issue is. The issue is that we live in a society that systemizes and excuses male violence against women.”

Hmm, what planet do you live on? Here on Earth violence against women is in no way excused; in fact, it is women’s violence against men - up to and including murder - that is not only excused, it’s celebrated in film, television, news media, etc. Get a grip.

As for Davina, I see she’s from Islington, which I believe at least used to be the home of my friend Erin Pizzey. Davina, I’ve known Erin for over 15 years now and she has a lot to say about the sexist, misandrist folks who took over the women’s shelter movement there. I’m going to have to see if she has any direct knowledge of and/or interaction with you. I think we MRAs need to take a closer look into you all - you’ve been off of our radar, but we can fix that.
8 Hugo
Dec 13th, 2005 at 8:23 am

Mr. Bad, the tone of the last sentence is positively threatening. Stand down, old boy.
9 Davina
Dec 13th, 2005 at 9:56 am

As for Davina, I see she’s from Islington

No. Guess again!

And does the irony of issuing veiled threats completely elude you?
10 Mr. Bad
Dec 13th, 2005 at 2:15 pm

“Threats?!” - oh come on, spare me. You two need to get out more.

If checking up on the activities of adversaries is somehow “threatening” then explain the actions of, e.g., the NOW, the Women’s organizations in Canada (who used government funds to monitor “anti-feminist websites,” etc.), Trish Wilson and Co., and most other feminist organizations and activists.

Please you two, don’t insult our intelligence by suggesting that politics doesn’t contain an aspect of “know thine adversary.” If the feminist vs. MRA debate/conflict isn’t politics, then nothing is.
11 Space Kitty
Dec 13th, 2005 at 3:11 pm

I wish I hadn’t contributed to the free traffic. What an unfortunate website.
12 Davina
Dec 13th, 2005 at 3:17 pm

If checking up on the activities of adversaries…

So an adversary is someone who works around domestic violence as it affects both men and women as well as children of both genders? Hmmmm. Are you just a total misanthrope?
13 Caitriona
Dec 13th, 2005 at 4:20 pm

Mr. Bad, I used to work as “abuse@.com.” There are *many* people who would see your comment, “I think we MRAs need to take a closer look into you all - you’ve been off of our radar, but we can fix that,” as a veiled threat.

Of course, it’s nothing like the troll who followed several women around Usenet, spouting lies and threats. His threats weren’t the least bit veiled. When they were aimed at me, I invited him to come on down. But I don’t react to threats in the same vein as most people do.

Now, if I were Ms. Davina, I’d probably be inviting you to come down to the shelter and take a look around. I’d also warn you that if you showed up, I’d be putting you to work, just like the rest of the volunteers.
14 chris the artiste
Dec 13th, 2005 at 4:33 pm

He’s using your photo. That’s copyright infringement.
And when are you going to address the “mangina” issue?
15 Hugo
Dec 13th, 2005 at 7:25 pm

I gave Karl the free traffic because I don’t take lads like him seriously. Better to laugh at ‘em. Any picture I put up here, as far as I’m concerned, is in the public domain. Photo-shop them to your heart’s content!
16 The Gonzman
Dec 14th, 2005 at 6:02 am

So an adversary is someone who works around domestic violence as it affects both men and women as well as children of both genders? Hmmmm. Are you just a total misanthrope?

Show me such a person, and I will embrace them - let’s see - I go around the local “DV shelters” and - hmm - all for women. All run by women - or more properly, by wymmin. All recieve government money - services for men - zero - one will refer you to a rat-trap motel, on your dime, of course.

We had someone a few years ago try to start a men’s shelter - like all the feminists say, “start your own.” Whatever happen to me - I mean, him? Oh yeah. An alliance of feminist groups put pressure on to have his permits screwed with, his zoning screwed with, called the sheriff, threatened contracters with removal of business…

No, Davina. Not adversaries at all. Sad to say, the people who taught me that feminists were my enemy because I was a man were - well - feminists.

And as long as “the many flavors of feminism” are silently complicit, I find any claims to the contrary to be - well worth a skeptical take of “Show me.”
17 Breadfish
Dec 14th, 2005 at 6:58 am

Funny how hypocritical that little website is is - Karl is complaining about all the lies used by feminism, only to plaster up a bunch of his own without any citation, source or justification.

Show me some hard facts buddy and I might be less inclined to think you an absolute braying jackass. If I won’t take “feminist” propaganda at face value, why should I swallow your “masculist” crap?

The whole thing comes off as a big case of sour grapes…
18 Mr. Bad
Dec 14th, 2005 at 8:40 am

Davina said: “So an adversary is someone who works around domestic violence as it affects both men and women as well as children of both genders? Hmmmm. Are you just a total misanthrope?”

No, but as Gonz correctly notes, feminists are not - and to date never have been - interested in “work(ing) around domestic violence as it affect both men and women…” They are singularly interested in advancing the cause of women, and only women, using children as pawns and domestic violence shelters as fronts to funnel money to the wider movement. Erin Pizzey has documented that quite clearly, and she of all people is one who should know. Also, feminists have conducted a steady campaign of misinformation and outright lies re. domestic violence so as to continue their substantial funding stream and at the same time to deny funding to men’s services for domestic violence, healthcare, legal assistance, etc.

Now, you might not feel that people who directly target you for slander, persecution, and discrimination are adversaries, but I do. And that certainly doesn’t make me a misanthrope, it makes me a sensible realist. However, judging from the behavior of feminists who work in the domestic violence industry, the term “misanthrope” applies to them quite nicely. Perhaps that’s who you were thinking of, hmm?

And will do everything I can to shut down operations that directly target my brothers and me, including so-called “women’s shelters” that are really fronts for feminist political activities.
19 Karl
Dec 14th, 2005 at 10:05 am

To cover a few comments:

Labyrus:
“Wow. What a moron…”
A slight change of tone from the guestbook entry you left, but ok - that’s your opinion and you’re quite welcome to it.

“Y’see, Karl, the thing is, that feminists don’t insist that men aren’t victims of violence caused by women just as easily as the vice versa, that’s really not the issue is.”
Erm, feminists in my experience - and looking at various (pro)feminist sites and having conversed with Davina in the past, it sure does appear that they are keen to marginalize or excuse violent women. In fact, we have “Battered WOMAN Syndrome” but nothing to lower a man’s sentence who may have been prone to violent attacks from his wife or g/f. And as we all know, despite the claim that feminists are against all forms of sexism….well Patricia Hewitt did a great job of discrediting that lie all by herself just recently :)

“The issue is that we live in a society that systemizes and excuses male violence against women.”
You’re kidding, right? I didn’t know we had a “VAMA” that states at one section:
**(b) USE OF FUNDS- Grants awarded under this section shall be used–
`(1) to provide personnel, training, technical assistance, advocacy, intervention, risk reduction and prevention of domestic violence, dating violence, stalking, and sexual assault against disabled men and boys; **
Oh, wait a moment… we haven’t. Davina once told me VAWA does not discriminate at any level against men or boys (though she couldn’t even see the sexism in the title - let alone the rest of it).. but there it is! only women and girls are to be funded to provide the above.

“(normally I’d feel bad about opening up an argument with an insult to someone’s intelligence, but seriously dude, look at your website. You use the word “Mangina”)”
The word mangina, in my understand basically means a man who is so sickened by those of his own sex, quite sexist against men & boys etc. And what does Hugo do? Well, he blames everything on men (typical feminist mentality) and not much else. So he does, in my understanding, fit the definition quite well. Just like i seem to fit YOUR definition of a MORON. Pot, Kettle, Black? :)

Davina - could you please say loud and clear what is made up - and provide the necessary proof to your claim?

Space Kitty - Thank you very much :) I’m glad my site upsets you, that means it’s doing what it was intended for. To reflect issues from an anti-feminist (i.e. against half truths and demonizing of men) mind.

Gender = mental / sex = physical. Please remember that. I udnerstand it is normal fem-speak but sex is the correct terminology when talking about a child’s physical sexual attributes.

As with gonzman - my experience with feminists (including one mil) has been terrible. I realise not each and everyone is a pure cold-blooded man-hater… but a damn high volume of them are. The double standards would be amusing if they were not so damaging to not just men, but society!

Breadfish:
“Funny how hypocritical that little website is is - Karl is complaining about all the lies used by feminism, only to plaster up a bunch of his own without any citation, source or justification.”

That’s why i use images with links to nearly all my sources! LOL. No, i don’t cite… no i don’t offer my sources… bwahaha. What was that name Labyrus referred to me as earlier??? ;)

Mr Bad:
“including so-called “women’s shelters” that are really fronts for feminist political activities.”
spot on… as Erin Pizzy pretty much summarized herself.
20 evil_fizz
Dec 14th, 2005 at 12:49 pm

Hugo, I’d try to laugh if the whole thing wasn’t so disheartening.

I must admit, the idea of “mangina” being an insult is an interesting commentary on broader views. Surely no one who’s committed to equality would suggest that a man having feminine traits was worthy of scorn. No siree.
21 Karl
Dec 14th, 2005 at 2:02 pm

evil fizz

i’d agree… but i don’t see hugo asking for equality for BOTH sexes.. i see him blaming men over & over again. He’s effectively repeating what he’s been brought up on - man = bad, woman = good…
22 evil_fizz
Dec 14th, 2005 at 4:26 pm

Wow, you definitely missed my point there…
23 Beste
Dec 15th, 2005 at 2:23 pm

mangina / 1 n.sl A man’s anus (esp. San Francisco Bay Area.) 2 n.sl Illusion of female mammalian genitalia created when male genitalia are concealed behind thighs.
24 meerkat
Dec 15th, 2005 at 4:06 pm

I recently had the pleasure of visiting Karl’s little site, and was very taken with the google adwords ad that had attached itself to his forum:

“Colonic irrigation
Sites and resources for colonic irrigation from ten sites in one.”

Says it all, really, I think.
25 Breadfish
Dec 15th, 2005 at 7:00 pm

I wasn’t talking about your picture page, karl, I was talking about things like your “myths vs facts” page that really should be called “myths and some more myths”.
26 Karl
Dec 17th, 2005 at 12:31 pm

Ah, meerkat - how the devil are you?

Yes, and you’re so open and lovely you accuse my wife’s list of jokes as ‘hate-speech’ while saying nothing of man-bashing jokes which are far more the norm. and then banned me, having accused me of hostilities on my forum, when all i did was quote you! if it was ‘that’ hostile - perhaps it says something about YOU.
27 Davina
Dec 18th, 2005 at 4:24 am

Apologies for the length of my comment but to set the record straight…

there ARE many men who are victims of domestic violence in the most serious form - and although DavinaJ would like to sweep these men under the carpet, they do exist

Not true.

I work closely with the national help-line for male victims of domestic violence (we are both members of a consortium seeking to establish a national domestic violence resource centre)
I also work closely with Respect – whose national phone line for perpetrators is also called in error by male victims who are given advice and support appropriate to their circumstances
I have consistently challenged the idea that male victims ‘don’t matter’ in a variety of fora, in writing and verbally
I have successfully lobbied for domestic violence monitoring data to be divisible by gender in a wide range of agencies so that male victims are made visible
I successfully argued for the inclusion of a section on male victims of domestic violence in the BBC Hitting Home website
I have ensured that male victims are addressed in the UK national training programmes for police and prosecutors

Perhaps you could elucidate further on the standard one must reach to avoid being accused of trying to ’sweep these men under the carpet’? Or better still, share your own contribution to raising this issue?

Show me such a person, and I will embrace them - let’s see - I go around the local “DV shelters” and - hmm - all for women. All run by women - or more properly, by wymmin. All recieve government money - services for men - zero - one will refer you to a rat-trap motel, on your dime, of course.

I can only comment on the situation in the UK where the issue of shelters (they are called refuges in the UK) for men is different because the context of our welfare state. Any person who cannot reside in their usual residence because of fear of actual or threatened violence is entitled to temporary accommodation (for themselves and their children) provided by the state – refuges are just one option and actually only provide accommodation for 15% of families homeless due to domestic violence. All temporary accommodation used by the state is subject to quality standards and if the individual cannot pay, housing benefit is available. Motels (called B&B here) are not used for applicants with children (except in extenuating circumstances and even then, is subject to a maximum of six weeks). More usually, private sector leasing is used – this means the local authority enters into a long term rental arrangement with a private sector landlord.

It *may* be the case that further research would find that male domestic violence victims also need their own specific refuges but current data (see for example this study) would suggest this is not the case because alternatives do exist as described above and because the primary function of refuges is to provide safety rather than a roof over ones head.

I am NOT arguing that male victims don’t need services. Because I *do* care about male victims, I believe we should have services based on *their* needs rather than on women’s needs. Being gender neutral in our approach means that we ignore important information.

This does *not* mean all victims are female and all offenders male *nor* does it mean that violence against men is acceptable. What it *does* mean is that the gender of both victim and offender influences the behaviours and needs of both.

For example, women victims are more likely to be injured, more likely to be frightened, more likely to be repeatedly abused and more likely to be murdered. Male victims are less likely to access existing services, often fearing ridicule should they disclose abuse at the hands of a woman.

Gender also influences the type of abuse. Male perpetrators are far more likely than female abusers to abuse post-separation, indeed this is the most common high risk situation for female victims - the time when they are most likely to be murdered. This is not the case for male victims so rather than waste resources on duplicating services which assist women with their very real need for safety out of some misguided idea that if women have them, men should have them too, we would be more effective in using those resources to provide services that meet men’s priority needs.

From the limited information we have, it would seem that one such approach might be to have more services that men could access anonymously. Here in the UK for example, an organisation which deals with depression has had great success in reaching young men (the highest risk group for ’successful’ suicides) through email counselling.

There is also some evidence to suggest that male victims of domestic violence have a low awareness of the services that do exist to help them and I would certainly support (and have) initiatives designed to increase their awareness.

I am interested in effective help and support and ignoring the role that gender plays is foolish if we want to really make some progress.

feminists are not - and to date never have been - interested in “work(ing) around domestic violence as it affect both men and women…

See above.

They are singularly interested in advancing the cause of women, and only women, using children as pawns and domestic violence shelters as fronts to funnel money to the wider movement.

I can only speak with authority on the situation in the UK where this is not true at all. Services for children exposed to domestic violence are overwhelmingly provided by the refuge (shelter) movement; indeed very little exists outside of this provision. Despite there being no Government funding for this work, refuges continue to prioritise fundraising for these services and consistently lobby for more services for children to be developed – especially outside of refuges. I fail to see how this equates to using children as pawns.

As for your claim of funnelling money to the wider movement, here in the UK, Government funding is subjected to quarterly budget monitoring and an annual review to assess service quality and value for money. It is thus extremely unlikely that any large scale fraud could be committed without detection. Of course, private donations are not subjected to nearly as much scrutiny which is how Mike Kenny managed to defraud several million pounds out of donors claiming to be running a refuge for male victims that didn’t actually exist.

Erin Pizzey has documented that quite clearly, and she of all people is one who should know.

Erin Pizzey has not been active in the UK refuge movement since 1982. As such, anything she claims to have documented – if indeed it exists at all - relates to events that occurred at least 23 years ago. Refuges have moved on since then.

And let’s not forget how Erin plays fast and lose with her own data. For example, her claim that women are as or more violent than men falls to bits when examined more closely. What she disingenuously fails to clarify is that she is including within her claim of ‘violent women’ acts of self-harm. In other words, she is equating a woman attempting suicide as ‘evidence’ that she is ‘equally violent’ as the man who assaults her.

[Reporter]: So women are as violent as men?

[Pizzey] “Well, we tend to implode, our violence is turned in on ourselves or is covert - men explode and hurt others.”

[Reporter]: So it’s not exactly the same?

“It’s violence,” Pizzey says stubbornly.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/women/story/0,3604,606006,00.html

feminists in my experience - and looking at various (pro)feminist sites and having conversed with Davina in the past, it sure does appear that they are keen to marginalize or excuse violent women.

Nice try at trying to group me in with those feminists you claim marginalise or excuse violent women but not actually true of me is it?

Davina once told me VAWA does not discriminate at any level against men or boys (though she couldn’t even see the sexism in the title - let alone the rest of it).

That’s not true. Our exchange in fact went as follows:

‘Karl’: i don’t see any feminist asking for VAWA to be made gender neutral.
Me: With the *sole* exception of the title – that’s because there’s no need - it already is.

See here for more detail about how, with the exception of the title, VAWA is gender neutral.

but there it is! only women and girls are to be funded to provide the above.

That’s not true either. For example, VAWA also funds programmes to provide street-based outreach, education, counselling, information and referrals to runaways, homeless and street young men AND women who have been subjected to or are at risk of sexual abuse.

VAWA also funds programmes designed to address rape and sexual assault - for example through the provision of specialist training to investigating police officers or by ensuring that hospitals have a ready supply of rape kits - again, initiatives that benefit anyone who has been raped or sexually assaulted. regardless of gender.

In practice VAWA hasn’t wholly excluded male victims; rape crisis lines help anyone who calls them (And BTW, I don’t see any men’s groups helping female rape victims.)

Davina - could you please say loud and clear what is made up - and provide the necessary proof to your claim?

See above plus your denial that you have ever posted my name and photograph on your website.
28 The Hollow Women
Dec 26th, 2005 at 5:02 pm

Hugo calls himself a Christian yet is allied with a gang of bloody child-butchering thugs. Domestic violence, womens issues, oh sure these are serious problems and need to be addressed. However democracies would be better off to criminalize marxist trash cults like these anal-retentive so-called “feminists” and their socialist allies. They have no moral solutions to any issue and are simply communists masquerading as liberals to justify their heinous bloody babymauling agenda. So-called “feminism” (the putrid, bigoted, psychotic marxist-lesbian hate ideology) attempts to divide heterosexual men and women in order to subvert the Bill of Rights and elevate themselves to an elite, protected class. Using lies and distortion as propaganda, feminazis perpetuate the phony, alarmist myth of male predation and that women are a single class that need their autocratic, totalitarian leadership. So-called, “feminism”, like its mentors communism or fascism is a complete fraud and a gargantuan hoax. So take your holier than thou marxist class war bullshit to another planet.
29 alexander
Dec 26th, 2005 at 9:06 pm

It would be interesting to see the programs that exist that assist men who are the victims of female initiated violence such as mob violence engendered by female manipulation (e.g., the Emett Till case).

Then there is female initiated state violence:

1) False charges of rape/violence

2) Paternity fraud

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Hugo Schwyzer

I’m in some noteworthy company…

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