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	<title>Comments on: Some thoughts on tokenism and the appeal of being unique</title>
	<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2005/12/14/some-thoughts-on-tokenism-and-the-appeal-of-being-unique/</link>
	<description></description>
	<pubDate>Fri, 05 Dec 2008 13:10:15 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: alexander</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2005/12/14/some-thoughts-on-tokenism-and-the-appeal-of-being-unique/#comment-15928</link>
		<dc:creator>alexander</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Dec 2005 01:31:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2005/12/14/some-thoughts-on-tokenism-and-the-appeal-of-being-unique/#comment-15928</guid>
		<description>Not too long ago I organized a seminar on the Iraq War in which I had several experts speaking on this topic. Being a politically conscious enlightened male, I made sure to invite five women I knew. I wanted to be sure that women knew they were welcome and had the same opportunities as men.

Of course, not a single one of the women I had invited bothered to show up, so it was another "male dominated" event.

I discussed this point with another woman, and she said that if I wanted to have women show up, then I should have organized a seminar about aroma therapy or something related which she stated that women are more interested in.

If this were an isolated event, I could dismiss it. But I have been to numerous conferences on the wars in Iraq and on terrorism, and it's 95% men, even though women have every opportunity to attend.

Women have choices. If women choose to ignore the information and networking which are vital to understanding the modern world, then what right to they have to claim that they are being excluded from power?
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Not too long ago I organized a seminar on the Iraq War in which I had several experts speaking on this topic. Being a politically conscious enlightened male, I made sure to invite five women I knew. I wanted to be sure that women knew they were welcome and had the same opportunities as men.</p>
<p>Of course, not a single one of the women I had invited bothered to show up, so it was another &#8220;male dominated&#8221; event.</p>
<p>I discussed this point with another woman, and she said that if I wanted to have women show up, then I should have organized a seminar about aroma therapy or something related which she stated that women are more interested in.</p>
<p>If this were an isolated event, I could dismiss it. But I have been to numerous conferences on the wars in Iraq and on terrorism, and it&#8217;s 95% men, even though women have every opportunity to attend.</p>
<p>Women have choices. If women choose to ignore the information and networking which are vital to understanding the modern world, then what right to they have to claim that they are being excluded from power?</p>
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		<title>By: Caitriona</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2005/12/14/some-thoughts-on-tokenism-and-the-appeal-of-being-unique/#comment-15927</link>
		<dc:creator>Caitriona</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Dec 2005 21:22:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2005/12/14/some-thoughts-on-tokenism-and-the-appeal-of-being-unique/#comment-15927</guid>
		<description>Marjani,  

I would advise that you nurture a few good relationships with women early on.  That, to me, seems to make it easier to have better relationships with women later.  I'm at a point in my life where I deal much better with other women my age than I did when I was younger, but I still don't have female friends my own age.  The closest is my pastor's wife, and she and I don't get to sit down together very often.

I find it much easier to talk with older women, with men, and with teenagers.  There still seems to be some small bit of competition with *some* of the women closer to my own age (I avoid those women as much as possible), but the rest are, like me, just too busy to do a lot of "sit down" time to work on a friendship, and none of us have the time to do things like work on projects together.

As ricia posted, it *does* get better as you get older.  The competition (mostly) goes away, and it's easier to avoid those who want to keep competing (for men, figures, kids' grades, etc).  But it still takes time and effort.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Marjani,  </p>
<p>I would advise that you nurture a few good relationships with women early on.  That, to me, seems to make it easier to have better relationships with women later.  I&#8217;m at a point in my life where I deal much better with other women my age than I did when I was younger, but I still don&#8217;t have female friends my own age.  The closest is my pastor&#8217;s wife, and she and I don&#8217;t get to sit down together very often.</p>
<p>I find it much easier to talk with older women, with men, and with teenagers.  There still seems to be some small bit of competition with *some* of the women closer to my own age (I avoid those women as much as possible), but the rest are, like me, just too busy to do a lot of &#8220;sit down&#8221; time to work on a friendship, and none of us have the time to do things like work on projects together.</p>
<p>As ricia posted, it *does* get better as you get older.  The competition (mostly) goes away, and it&#8217;s easier to avoid those who want to keep competing (for men, figures, kids&#8217; grades, etc).  But it still takes time and effort.</p>
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		<title>By: Marjani</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2005/12/14/some-thoughts-on-tokenism-and-the-appeal-of-being-unique/#comment-15926</link>
		<dc:creator>Marjani</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Dec 2005 13:48:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2005/12/14/some-thoughts-on-tokenism-and-the-appeal-of-being-unique/#comment-15926</guid>
		<description>Thank you, that was a very wise observation.  I suppose I am much more cautious in my relationships with other females than with males in social situations. I also do notice the tendancy of friends of the oppisite sex to spend less time with me when they are involved. You seem to answer my personal questions of why I look forward to aging.  Perhaps it is because I will begin to form more meaningful bonds with other females, something I have struggled to do.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you, that was a very wise observation.  I suppose I am much more cautious in my relationships with other females than with males in social situations. I also do notice the tendancy of friends of the oppisite sex to spend less time with me when they are involved. You seem to answer my personal questions of why I look forward to aging.  Perhaps it is because I will begin to form more meaningful bonds with other females, something I have struggled to do.</p>
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		<title>By: ricia</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2005/12/14/some-thoughts-on-tokenism-and-the-appeal-of-being-unique/#comment-15925</link>
		<dc:creator>ricia</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Dec 2005 13:13:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2005/12/14/some-thoughts-on-tokenism-and-the-appeal-of-being-unique/#comment-15925</guid>
		<description>Marjani: Forgive me any assumptions I'll make, but I feel inclined to note the following....

From my experience in life, it has been seen that many young women are bound to have more male friends than female friends, with age, this changes dramatically.. due to gender roles in our socialization. When we are younger, social arena's tend to more often reside in environments where we know fewer of the patrons, are surrounded more by 'strangers',  and (hetersexual) social rituals inevitably nurture competition or cautiousness between women and relatively easy introductions with those of the opposite sex. In bars, one will often see one or two women chatting among a group of men but rarely will witness the opposite. With age, social contexts change. Partnerships, children, work lives and family demands restrict the frequency of social occasions, and life experience changes what we expect from social occassions - more often we are interested in intimate gatherings among familiar friends and family with whom we rarely have quality time. Those with these circumstances are much more likely to desire a "break" by being among those whom enjoy the same personal interests, very often this pools a group of people of the same gender together and relationships are further nurtured.  Ta-boot, there are gender politics that become more obvious to us with time, if your best friend is a man, you may find that your relationship changes dramatically when he partners up and 'settles down'. The opposite scenerio may also result in these changes. I'm not advocating all this, just reporting a 'common story'.

All this to say that, age may indeed change your outlook upon the matter of whom you actually prefer to nurture friendships with. There is just enough reason, due to gender socialization, to find yourself seeking very specifically stronger ties with other women (the same can be said among men, I"m guessing?).  Time will most certainly change your perspective on prior friendships too (and this is not specific to orientation). Sexual politics play into many, if not most, of our relationships - whether we are aware of it, want it to be so, or not.

Hugo: What a great post. Thanks!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Marjani: Forgive me any assumptions I&#8217;ll make, but I feel inclined to note the following&#8230;.</p>
<p>From my experience in life, it has been seen that many young women are bound to have more male friends than female friends, with age, this changes dramatically.. due to gender roles in our socialization. When we are younger, social arena&#8217;s tend to more often reside in environments where we know fewer of the patrons, are surrounded more by &#8217;strangers&#8217;,  and (hetersexual) social rituals inevitably nurture competition or cautiousness between women and relatively easy introductions with those of the opposite sex. In bars, one will often see one or two women chatting among a group of men but rarely will witness the opposite. With age, social contexts change. Partnerships, children, work lives and family demands restrict the frequency of social occasions, and life experience changes what we expect from social occassions - more often we are interested in intimate gatherings among familiar friends and family with whom we rarely have quality time. Those with these circumstances are much more likely to desire a &#8220;break&#8221; by being among those whom enjoy the same personal interests, very often this pools a group of people of the same gender together and relationships are further nurtured.  Ta-boot, there are gender politics that become more obvious to us with time, if your best friend is a man, you may find that your relationship changes dramatically when he partners up and &#8217;settles down&#8217;. The opposite scenerio may also result in these changes. I&#8217;m not advocating all this, just reporting a &#8216;common story&#8217;.</p>
<p>All this to say that, age may indeed change your outlook upon the matter of whom you actually prefer to nurture friendships with. There is just enough reason, due to gender socialization, to find yourself seeking very specifically stronger ties with other women (the same can be said among men, I&#8221;m guessing?).  Time will most certainly change your perspective on prior friendships too (and this is not specific to orientation). Sexual politics play into many, if not most, of our relationships - whether we are aware of it, want it to be so, or not.</p>
<p>Hugo: What a great post. Thanks!</p>
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		<title>By: mythago</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2005/12/14/some-thoughts-on-tokenism-and-the-appeal-of-being-unique/#comment-15924</link>
		<dc:creator>mythago</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Dec 2005 02:15:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2005/12/14/some-thoughts-on-tokenism-and-the-appeal-of-being-unique/#comment-15924</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;If a female seems to get along with males better, so be it.&lt;/i&gt;

The issue isn't &lt;i&gt;whether&lt;/i&gt; one's friends break down by gender, but &lt;i&gt;why&lt;/i&gt; they do.

A woman who is a football fanatic will probably have more male friends than female, because in our culture football is something seen as a 'male' activity and most football fanatics are men. That's a little different than a woman who chooses male friends because she stereotypes women negatively.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>If a female seems to get along with males better, so be it.</i></p>
<p>The issue isn&#8217;t <i>whether</i> one&#8217;s friends break down by gender, but <i>why</i> they do.</p>
<p>A woman who is a football fanatic will probably have more male friends than female, because in our culture football is something seen as a &#8216;male&#8217; activity and most football fanatics are men. That&#8217;s a little different than a woman who chooses male friends because she stereotypes women negatively.</p>
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		<title>By: Paul</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2005/12/14/some-thoughts-on-tokenism-and-the-appeal-of-being-unique/#comment-15923</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Dec 2005 23:58:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2005/12/14/some-thoughts-on-tokenism-and-the-appeal-of-being-unique/#comment-15923</guid>
		<description>"And especially in gender studies, I'm aware that the sex of the prof matters"

How so, taken that you teach women's history, a masculinity class, and a class on variant sexual behaviors.  Can anyone from these groups teach the other courses?  Are you referring to the bias perceptions of the students?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;And especially in gender studies, I&#8217;m aware that the sex of the prof matters&#8221;</p>
<p>How so, taken that you teach women&#8217;s history, a masculinity class, and a class on variant sexual behaviors.  Can anyone from these groups teach the other courses?  Are you referring to the bias perceptions of the students?</p>
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		<title>By: Hugo</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2005/12/14/some-thoughts-on-tokenism-and-the-appeal-of-being-unique/#comment-15922</link>
		<dc:creator>Hugo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Dec 2005 16:44:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2005/12/14/some-thoughts-on-tokenism-and-the-appeal-of-being-unique/#comment-15922</guid>
		<description>Marjani, my point was a philosophical one.   I have no use for activists who, in the old phrase, "love mankind (or women) but hate individual people."  You aren't much of a ranger if you love the forest, but don't also care about individual trees.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Marjani, my point was a philosophical one.   I have no use for activists who, in the old phrase, &#8220;love mankind (or women) but hate individual people.&#8221;  You aren&#8217;t much of a ranger if you love the forest, but don&#8217;t also care about individual trees.</p>
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		<title>By: Marjani</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2005/12/14/some-thoughts-on-tokenism-and-the-appeal-of-being-unique/#comment-15921</link>
		<dc:creator>Marjani</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Dec 2005 16:14:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2005/12/14/some-thoughts-on-tokenism-and-the-appeal-of-being-unique/#comment-15921</guid>
		<description>This post and the "all my friends are guys" post really makes me think about feminism and its role in destroying socially constructed gender boundries.  It also makes me think about what is biological and what is societal.  

You are right when you say taht one cannot be a feminist if one does not like women.  But to say that you can't if you don't have authentic genuine friendships with women. ( I'm not sure how you definie this, but I see it as a very close friend who is female) To me this contradicts the whole point of the movement and feminism how I believe in it.  If a female seems to get along with males better, so be it.  This does not mean she doesn't respect or care about other females.  To me "gender feminism" as some would label it is about breaking the boundries that define women's lives.  This is where the biological argument comes in.  I suppose I believe that our hormones are a powerful thing.  Though I do believe that males and females are more alike than not, I can't help but thinking that for some there are set differences that reflect hormones and the way we think. 

I found myself seperating myself from my female friends because they did seem to bring more drama to my life ( most likely a reflection of society rather than biology).  After awhile I noticed that I was beginning to really crave female companionship.  I can't say what caused this and I can only assume that it was biological.  For others, perhaps they don't need that contact.  The problem is that we are still talking as if there are 2 definite sexes.  Just cause one looks like a women on the outside doesn't mean she necessarily has the same chemical set up on the inside. To me this seems obvious. Homosexuality is a perfect example that there is no definite sex.  

So my ramblings are to say that you don't have to have female friends to be a feminist.  Now if you happen to be a token because you hate women or don't care about them, then you're probably not a feminist. 

I mean what if you changed the argument. If you are black and only have white friends, are you than not allowed to fight racism? Or if you are white and only have white friends?  Maybe I'm taking it to far.  My ideas aren't set yet I'm just trying to figure this out.  

I must say though as someone who is often a token, I have found myself getting jealous when someone else comes into this role.  As in hey, I'm the only token in this room!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This post and the &#8220;all my friends are guys&#8221; post really makes me think about feminism and its role in destroying socially constructed gender boundries.  It also makes me think about what is biological and what is societal.  </p>
<p>You are right when you say taht one cannot be a feminist if one does not like women.  But to say that you can&#8217;t if you don&#8217;t have authentic genuine friendships with women. ( I&#8217;m not sure how you definie this, but I see it as a very close friend who is female) To me this contradicts the whole point of the movement and feminism how I believe in it.  If a female seems to get along with males better, so be it.  This does not mean she doesn&#8217;t respect or care about other females.  To me &#8220;gender feminism&#8221; as some would label it is about breaking the boundries that define women&#8217;s lives.  This is where the biological argument comes in.  I suppose I believe that our hormones are a powerful thing.  Though I do believe that males and females are more alike than not, I can&#8217;t help but thinking that for some there are set differences that reflect hormones and the way we think. </p>
<p>I found myself seperating myself from my female friends because they did seem to bring more drama to my life ( most likely a reflection of society rather than biology).  After awhile I noticed that I was beginning to really crave female companionship.  I can&#8217;t say what caused this and I can only assume that it was biological.  For others, perhaps they don&#8217;t need that contact.  The problem is that we are still talking as if there are 2 definite sexes.  Just cause one looks like a women on the outside doesn&#8217;t mean she necessarily has the same chemical set up on the inside. To me this seems obvious. Homosexuality is a perfect example that there is no definite sex.  </p>
<p>So my ramblings are to say that you don&#8217;t have to have female friends to be a feminist.  Now if you happen to be a token because you hate women or don&#8217;t care about them, then you&#8217;re probably not a feminist. </p>
<p>I mean what if you changed the argument. If you are black and only have white friends, are you than not allowed to fight racism? Or if you are white and only have white friends?  Maybe I&#8217;m taking it to far.  My ideas aren&#8217;t set yet I&#8217;m just trying to figure this out.  </p>
<p>I must say though as someone who is often a token, I have found myself getting jealous when someone else comes into this role.  As in hey, I&#8217;m the only token in this room!</p>
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