Comments on: The last post of ‘05, a note on youth groups and truth-telling http://hugoschwyzer.net/2005/12/14/the-last-post-of-05-a-note-on-youth-groups-and-truth-telling/ Fri, 05 Dec 2008 13:59:18 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.3.3 By: Thalia http://hugoschwyzer.net/2005/12/14/the-last-post-of-05-a-note-on-youth-groups-and-truth-telling/#comment-15946 Thalia Sun, 25 Dec 2005 00:49:50 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2005/12/14/the-last-post-of-05-a-note-on-youth-groups-and-truth-telling/#comment-15946 Hi! >>To my mind, "Thad" isn't disappointed and hurt because Jason and Courtney are pregnant. Thad is disappointed because Jason and Courtney preached one thing and then did another. Hi!

>>To my mind, “Thad” isn’t disappointed and hurt because Jason and Courtney are pregnant. Thad is disappointed because Jason and Courtney preached one thing and then did another.

]]> By: The Gonzman http://hugoschwyzer.net/2005/12/14/the-last-post-of-05-a-note-on-youth-groups-and-truth-telling/#comment-15945 The Gonzman Mon, 19 Dec 2005 00:56:32 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2005/12/14/the-last-post-of-05-a-note-on-youth-groups-and-truth-telling/#comment-15945 Well, as an agnostic, I don't know why you'd be offended, since I obviously wasn't talking about you, now, was I? Now, let's say I was to begin preaching against Demon Tobacco, waving my cigarette in the air. Or talking about the virtues of temperance, occasionally sipping from my 20 year old Scotch. Or preaching the virtues of diversity and racioal tolerance while my own employees were as lily white as a local branch of the Ku Klux Klan. But then again, why bring Al Franken into this? I would get smirks, rolling of eyes, mutters of "yeah, right" and outright demands of "Who the heck are you to talk about that?" I would not be an effective spokesman for that POV. Because I would be a HYPOCRITE. Preach one thing. Practice the other. Now, unless I missed something, fornication is still a sin (That's the whole sex outside of marriage thing). If you have a church which preaches chastity, and the youth pastor is found to be engaging in unchastity - fornication - well, you do the math. If, however, they aren't preaching it, then it is right and correct that they shouldn't dismiss them for practicing it, since they have, well, "ditched" that segment of morality and made it optional. Q.E.D. I suppose I could dress it up in PC euphemisms if it would make you happy, but it would be a case of the proverbial "lipstick on a pig" no matter how many semantic gymnastics I went through. Well, as an agnostic, I don’t know why you’d be offended, since I obviously wasn’t talking about you, now, was I?

Now, let’s say I was to begin preaching against Demon Tobacco, waving my cigarette in the air. Or talking about the virtues of temperance, occasionally sipping from my 20 year old Scotch. Or preaching the virtues of diversity and racioal tolerance while my own employees were as lily white as a local branch of the Ku Klux Klan. But then again, why bring Al Franken into this?

I would get smirks, rolling of eyes, mutters of “yeah, right” and outright demands of “Who the heck are you to talk about that?” I would not be an effective spokesman for that POV. Because I would be a HYPOCRITE. Preach one thing. Practice the other.

Now, unless I missed something, fornication is still a sin (That’s the whole sex outside of marriage thing). If you have a church which preaches chastity, and the youth pastor is found to be engaging in unchastity - fornication - well, you do the math.

If, however, they aren’t preaching it, then it is right and correct that they shouldn’t dismiss them for practicing it, since they have, well, “ditched” that segment of morality and made it optional. Q.E.D.

I suppose I could dress it up in PC euphemisms if it would make you happy, but it would be a case of the proverbial “lipstick on a pig” no matter how many semantic gymnastics I went through.

]]> By: Butterfingers http://hugoschwyzer.net/2005/12/14/the-last-post-of-05-a-note-on-youth-groups-and-truth-telling/#comment-15944 Butterfingers Sun, 18 Dec 2005 07:43:17 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2005/12/14/the-last-post-of-05-a-note-on-youth-groups-and-truth-telling/#comment-15944 You know, John, I would really and genuinely like to know what "sexual morality" was before modern culture arrived. And I warn you - the history of marriage and statistics regarding out-of-wedlock pregnancies from about the 10th century onwards is a hobby of mine... From which you can probably conclude that facts do not support any fantasy of a blissful past where people got married first and had children later. Still - maybe you know something that I don't. And of course - Merry Christmas indeed. You know, John, I would really and genuinely like to know what “sexual morality” was before modern culture arrived.

And I warn you - the history of marriage and statistics regarding out-of-wedlock pregnancies from about the 10th century onwards is a hobby of mine…

From which you can probably conclude that facts do not support any fantasy of a blissful past where people got married first and had children later.

Still - maybe you know something that I don’t.

And of course - Merry Christmas indeed.

]]> By: CaptDMO http://hugoschwyzer.net/2005/12/14/the-last-post-of-05-a-note-on-youth-groups-and-truth-telling/#comment-15943 CaptDMO Sun, 18 Dec 2005 01:23:02 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2005/12/14/the-last-post-of-05-a-note-on-youth-groups-and-truth-telling/#comment-15943 Have a plesant and reflective Solstice! Have a plesant and reflective Solstice!

]]> By: Noli Irritare Leones http://hugoschwyzer.net/2005/12/14/the-last-post-of-05-a-note-on-youth-groups-and-truth-telling/#comment-15949 Noli Irritare Leones Sat, 17 Dec 2005 16:29:54 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2005/12/14/the-last-post-of-05-a-note-on-youth-groups-and-truth-telling/#comment-15949 <strong>Letting our yea be yea, and our nay, nay</strong> Ive been meaning to write something about hypocrisy and what it means to live honestly, ever since I linked a certain piece by James Allison the other week. Allison had written about proper and improper ways of dealing with the fact that many ... Letting our yea be yea, and our nay, nay

Ive been meaning to write something about hypocrisy and what it means to live honestly, ever since I linked a certain piece by James Allison the other week. Allison had written about proper and improper ways of dealing with the fact that many …

]]> By: Antigone http://hugoschwyzer.net/2005/12/14/the-last-post-of-05-a-note-on-youth-groups-and-truth-telling/#comment-15942 Antigone Fri, 16 Dec 2005 00:49:19 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2005/12/14/the-last-post-of-05-a-note-on-youth-groups-and-truth-telling/#comment-15942 Speaking as someone who is more of agnostic than Christian, I take offense to the idea that progressives don't have morality, or that they "ditched" them, gonzman. Hugo was talking about lying and hypocrisy are wrong, that speaks of morality to me. Speaking as someone who is more of agnostic than Christian, I take offense to the idea that progressives don’t have morality, or that they “ditched” them, gonzman. Hugo was talking about lying and hypocrisy are wrong, that speaks of morality to me.

]]> By: The Gonzman http://hugoschwyzer.net/2005/12/14/the-last-post-of-05-a-note-on-youth-groups-and-truth-telling/#comment-15941 The Gonzman Thu, 15 Dec 2005 16:23:21 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2005/12/14/the-last-post-of-05-a-note-on-youth-groups-and-truth-telling/#comment-15941 It "must be" because a violation of trust and standards has to have consequences; otherwise it's just cheap grace. It “must be” because a violation of trust and standards has to have consequences; otherwise it’s just cheap grace.

]]> By: Vacula http://hugoschwyzer.net/2005/12/14/the-last-post-of-05-a-note-on-youth-groups-and-truth-telling/#comment-15940 Vacula Thu, 15 Dec 2005 14:17:51 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2005/12/14/the-last-post-of-05-a-note-on-youth-groups-and-truth-telling/#comment-15940 I don't know if it matters to anyone, but the article is clearly marked as a fictional account. However much you can sympathize with 'Thad,' the description is intended to provide one perspective of this sort of situation. They purposefully leave no room for forgiveness or even repentance, focusing on the fallout and disappointment instead of dealing with the issue itself. Whatever your sexual standards, that isn't a very ethical way to "deal with the issue" fictionally. I don’t know if it matters to anyone, but the article is clearly marked as a fictional account. However much you can sympathize with ‘Thad,’ the description is intended to provide one perspective of this sort of situation. They purposefully leave no room for forgiveness or even repentance, focusing on the fallout and disappointment instead of dealing with the issue itself.

Whatever your sexual standards, that isn’t a very ethical way to “deal with the issue” fictionally.

]]> By: Dave Carl http://hugoschwyzer.net/2005/12/14/the-last-post-of-05-a-note-on-youth-groups-and-truth-telling/#comment-15939 Dave Carl Thu, 15 Dec 2005 13:56:54 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2005/12/14/the-last-post-of-05-a-note-on-youth-groups-and-truth-telling/#comment-15939 Why is it an either/or question? Let's assume (although I don't necessarily) that the youth leader has transgressed, then why must he be removed if he is willing to own up and seek forgiveness? "You're bad, you're gone" appears to me to miss the Gospel message entirely. Why is it an either/or question? Let’s assume (although I don’t necessarily) that the youth leader has transgressed, then why must he be removed if he is willing to own up and seek forgiveness? “You’re bad, you’re gone” appears to me to miss the Gospel message entirely.

]]> By: The Gonzman http://hugoschwyzer.net/2005/12/14/the-last-post-of-05-a-note-on-youth-groups-and-truth-telling/#comment-15938 The Gonzman Thu, 15 Dec 2005 10:43:30 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2005/12/14/the-last-post-of-05-a-note-on-youth-groups-and-truth-telling/#comment-15938 The Dilemma: How do you have someone speak to upholding moral standards, when they themselves do not follow them? Even though the <i>ad hominem tu quoque</i> argument is a fallacy, it is still frequently invoked as an excuse to dismiss what such people say. Traditionalist Answer: Remove those who go against the morality they preach, as they are no longer effective in disseminating it. Progressive Answer: Ditch the morality. My take: If I'm going to ditch the morality, I can ditch the whole church and save me a bundle of hours each week. The Dilemma: How do you have someone speak to upholding moral standards, when they themselves do not follow them? Even though the ad hominem tu quoque argument is a fallacy, it is still frequently invoked as an excuse to dismiss what such people say.

Traditionalist Answer: Remove those who go against the morality they preach, as they are no longer effective in disseminating it.

Progressive Answer: Ditch the morality.

My take: If I’m going to ditch the morality, I can ditch the whole church and save me a bundle of hours each week.

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