The discussion sparked by Jill’s online experience with her fellow NYU law students continues. Here’s my post, Amanda’s, and Lynn’s. Amanda and Lynn both have excellent things to say about the difficult position women find themselves in on the Internet, and in the wider society, when it comes to their appearance. I liked this bit from Amanda:
Calling feminists ugly is actually shorthand for a longer thought process that goes something like, "Women’s most important quality is their looks, so good-looking women have everything they could want. The only reason a woman could be dissatisfied is if she isn’t good-looking, and so feminism is the last resort of women in denial that they are failures as women." That argument falls apart if you show that conventionally attractive women also feel like second class citizens, and that being eligible for being a well-regarded sex object doesn’t mean that you aren’t still being treated just as a sex object.
Nicely put.
When the fellas at NYU called Jill "fat" and "ugly", many folks at Feministe rushed to reassure Jill that she was anything but. There are several problems with responding to insults with compliments, as zuzu pointed out in the comments:
These guys are obviously assholes, but it bothers me that being called fat and/or hideous provokes such a strong, “But you’re not fat! You’re not ugly!” response. I could just be feeling marginalized by the idea that being fat is the worst thing a woman could be called.
I’m thinking this morning of what a male pro-feminist response to this issue might be.
Most men are aware, to one degree or another, of how powerfully the women in their lives are affected by messages about beauty. If we’ve been raised in this culture, we’ve grown up with mothers, sisters, cousins, classmates, girlfriends and wives who’ve suffered from the tremendous pressure to be thin and pretty. We’ve witnessed that anxiety from an early age, and many of us have tried — with limited success at best — to offer comfort and reassurance to the women around us. When I was younger, whenever any woman would worry out loud about her weight or her looks, I would rush to compliment her. I figured dispensing kind compliments was part of my job as a man.
The subtext of this, of course, was that I was being raised to believe that women were emotionally dependent upon my praise and my judgment. And just as I — or any man — had the power to comfort and reassure, I also had the power to hurt and wound. As a "nice guy" in my youth, I knew that I ought never call a woman "fat" or "ugly", but the fact that I didn’t use those epithets didn’t mean that I wasn’t aware of their potential power. And I’m convinced it’s fundamentally unhealthy for men to have this kind of power over women, even if we don’t use that power abusively.
When I first read Jill’s original post, I felt the old temptation to do as many did: to offer words of reassurance about her looks. Compliments, especially in cyberspace, are awfully easy; a quick "Those guys are idiots, you’re very attractive" would have been effortless. But I’m convinced it would have been wrong to write it. Today, I am very careful with compliments and reassurance about physical appearance. I save that sort of thing for my marriage. With my female friends, students, and especially with the girls in my youth group to whom I am close, I am quick with compliments about everything but physical appearance.
As a professor and a youth leader, I’m keenly aware of how many young women are desperate for praise and validation about their looks. And I’m equally aware of how damaging it will be if I provide it. Even when my "kids" ask for that sort of praise in subtle — and often not-so-subtle — ways, I won’t make comments about visual appearance. But ask anyone who’s seen me with teens — I’m a hugger and a complimenter about everything else extraordinaire. It’s easy to praise exteriors; harder to get to know a girl or a boy and find out his or her special gifts and talents that lie beneath the surface. I’m intensely interested in finding the different intellectual, emotional, athletic, artistic and spiritual gifts that my students and youth group kids possess. And about those qualities, I’m consistently effusive.
Obviously, this is a good rule for a thirty-eight year-old youth worker to use when dealing with teenagers. But this "be very careful with physical comments and compliments rule" is applicable in the rest of the world, as well. Pro-feminist men must recognize that men constantly use compliments to gain access to women, and that that is a fundamentally destructive dynamic. How many bad pick-up lines start with overzealous praise of a woman’s appearance? Men use these lines because as hackneyed as they are, they know sometimes they work. By the time they reach college, most men recognize that a great many women are deeply and profoundly hungry for praise, and by offering that praise, guys will be able to gain an opening. When men praise the beauty of women they barely know, they are employing an old patriarchal strategy that preys upon a serious vulnerability.
Mind you, I regularly tell my wife she’s beautiful. But she’s my wife, and my enthusiastic and sincere praise is not tied to an agenda; I’m not trying to get her into bed or gain some other power over her. Indeed, I think we all should compliment our lovers and spouses, and in a different way, our sons and daughters. Praise for physical attributes has its time and place, and all of us — men and women alike — need to hear it from time to time. But for too long, men have recognized women’s socially-constructed need for body-centered praise, and they have used that need to their advantage. So men can play a vital role in transforming culture for the better by being very careful with the physical compliments towards women they don’t know well — and very generous with praise for women’s other attributes. Let’s save the "you’re beautiful" remarks for those with whom we’ve already built a relationship.
I’m not accusing the guys who wrote complimentary words to Jill of having a hidden agenda, though some may have hopefully anticipated her gratitude, something that men tend to expect in return for that sort of praise. But we need to recognize that when we do offer such compliments to those we barely know, even when we do so with sincerity and without expectation, we are helping to reinforce the destructive anti-feminist notion that women are dependent upon near-constant reassurance from lovers, acquaintances, and strangers alike. Sometimes, the best thing we can do is check our desire to offer that praise, and choose a different strategy to express our admiration and our solidarity.
Well said. As a woman, I understand the enervating power of judgements on my physical appearance. Also, I realize that people can dispense compliments in an indiscriminate manner. Nevertheless, I want to clarify (and this might be the case for others who have misguidedly defended Jill by reassuring her of her beauty) that I never, ever posted a comment at Feministe, even though I am a regular reader. After months of reading Jill’s posts and seeing her pictures and learning about her life, the gratuitous violence she received at xoxo really upset me. I would have never said to her that she’s gorgeous unless I thought so (it wasn’t a knee-jerk reaction). Anyway, after reading more stuff that the xoxo board that day, I came to the conclusion that responding in the way I did is not the best way to address a ridiculous ad hominem.
BTW, your chinchilla is jaw-dropping, sooper doopper adorable.
Susanna, the wonderful thing about chinchillas is that they are immune to socially constructed pressures to be beautiful or thin. They do take compliments very well, thank you.
I wanted to be careful not to criticize any of the “complimenters” at Feministe. My post also leaves the impression that only men were complimenting Jill, which obviously wasn’t the case.
It’s always rubbed me the wrong way when a man (besides my father or a significant other) has complimented my looks. It always strikes me as a bit presumptuous, and I think Hugo’s post goes a long way toward explaining why.
I don’t think Hugo’s rule is some new-fangled notion invented feminists either. I think Emily Post and Miss Manners would agree that men are not supposed to compliment that beauty or physique of women not related to them.
Oh, and in lieu of what Hugo just said, I didn’t mean to imply that people who told Jill that she is pretty in the aftermath of the nasty comments about her were being presumptuous. In the context of that situation, I thought it was a sweet gesture (because Jill herself brought up the issue of what others had said about her appearance), although in retrospect it seems clear that those compliments perhaps missed the point.
“I think Emily Post and Miss Manners would agree that men are not supposed to compliment that beauty or physique of women not related to them.”
I’m not too sure of that - isn’t it considered quite proper to compliment men with the beauty of their wives?
I compliment friends on their looks, and on their clothes, no matter their gender, but I would never dream of doing so to a stranger (unless there are other more obvious motives behind the compliments).
Hmmmm . . . I have to admit that I can’t cite chapter in verse from the etiquette books. But I have a feeling that men complimenting other men on their wives looks is not strictly “correct.”
Of course, rules are made to be broken. I think a close pal saying, “hey, your new S.O. is good looking” is pretty normal human behavior.
I like to compliment people where appropriate. I wouldn’t compliment people on attributes they inherited, unless they were family or very close friends. Also, they need to be true and sincere. I can’t fake a compliment. But if you listen and observe, you can almost always find something complimentary about a person.
10 years ago, when I’d be sitting in a bar talking to a woman I fancied, I might tell her I something like “Great shoes. They really go with your clothes.” But I wouldn’t tell her she has beautiful eyes.
Great post. It has taken me a long time to learn this. It’s always been natural for me to judge women on their appearance in a manner that was not necessary and could have been replaced with a compliment or sincerity that reinforced something more healthy.
When my now ex-wife and I were separating a few years ago, her mother yelled at me, telling me what I was losing out on when her daughter cheated on me. She said, “look at how beautiful she is, you can’t blame other men for wanting to give her attention”. Well, yes and no. She is physically attractive, I suppose, but only skin deep, at best. And I have since met and married a woman who is more beautiful in many ways over my ex, although she is a woman I would not have noticed when I met my ex.
I believe that my wife is the most beautiful woman in the world, and want to be with her regardless of any superficial appearances that may change over time. But it has taken me some time to mature to this level, and the superficial pressures of our society work against more constructive methods of praising the other sex.
There are several levels to this issue:
1)I work with batterers and I remember one telling me that he had a good pick-up line involving complimenting a woman’s looks. Most of the time, he would get ignored, or told to go away, but sometimes, 1 out of 10 (he said), would respond and he would end up having sex with her. In his mind, it was a strategy that worked.
2)I think that most men who are not “predators” like the guy above, extrapolate from their intimate experiences with women. I dated women when I was in my early 20’s who would often demean their looks with the hope/expectation that I would compliment them. I used to assume that most women were looking for a compliment on their physical looks, especially if they or someone else demeaned their looks.
3) So, as a pro-feminist man, you need to realize that there are men like the guy above (they set the tone for how men are often perceived) and that even though you may not have the same intention, it is important to be continually looking at your use of power - regardless of your intentions.
I hope this is clear….
From “Miss Manners Guide for the Turn of the Millenium”, page 113:
“Strangers have no business complimenting on one’s looks one way or the other. A truly harmless stranger — say an older lady who says, “My you’re a pretty thing”, before she thinks about it — may be acknowledged with a slight bow of the head and a distant smile. A strange man who makes such a comment should be pointedly ignored.”
That’s all she has on the subject.
Nothing about complimenting friends’ wives to their faces. That smacks more of the courtly love tradition than of any recent period in American manners.
Well at least takes care of the arguments street harassers use to defend themselves (”What’s the problem? I was just complimenting a pretty lady!”)
I love Miss Manners, although I would bet that most street harassers aren’t sensitive enough to social nuances to be too wounded by being “pointedly ignored.”
Why is it destructive for men to “gain access to women?” If they’re both willing adults, it seems pretty damn constructive to me.
Wow, I know I always say this, but this one really is a great post, Hugo. I’m handing it over to GIL to read too.
Well, if women do not want men to compliment them, we can stop complimenting them. But then will we hear a spate of complaints from women that “men don’t notice us”?
Pro-feminist men must recognize that men constantly use compliments to gain access to women, and that that is a fundamentally destructive dynamic.
Obviously, men have no clue. So why don’t women show us how it is done. Let us see women take the initiative, approach men, start a conversation (without any of those destructive compliments), ask the guy for his phone number, then call him up later and ask him out.
And don’t forget, she will have to pick him up and pay for the date!
Well, if women do not want men to compliment them, we can stop complimenting them. But then will we hear a spate of complaints from women that “men don’t notice us”?
Pro-feminist men must recognize that men constantly use compliments to gain access to women, and that that is a fundamentally destructive dynamic.
Obviously, men have no clue. So why don’t women show us how it is done. Let us see women take the initiative, approach men, start a conversation (without any of those destructive compliments), ask the guy for his phone number, then call him up later and ask him out.
And don’t forget, she will have to pick him up and pay for the date!
HUGO: I ONLY POSTED ONCE BUT FOR SOME REASON THE PREVIEW FUNCTION POSTED IT TWICE!
So why don’t women show us how it is done. Let us see women take the initiative, approach men, start a conversation (without any of those destructive compliments), ask the guy for his phone number, then call him up later and ask him out.
And don’t forget, she will have to pick him up and pay for the date!
Are you trying to say that this hasn’t ever happened to you, that no woman’s ever taken you out on a date? Never? Not once?
Oh, dear.
Perhaps it’s different where you live, but here in the US, women feel quite free to ask men out, buy them nice things, take them to dinner, and seduce them. We do it all the time. Of course, as hard as it is taking the initiative, being passively attractive is hard work, too. But you’ve found that out already.
I love it when men imply that we’re so LUCKY that they’re doing all the “heavy lifting” in initiating relationships (asking someone out, paying, picking up your date, etc.). But frankly, I would just as soon do the initiating and I have done so(in my single days). And I never felt the need to say, “Hey, good lookin’, how about dinner?” A simple, “Can I take you out to dinner on Saturday?” will suffice.
The problem is that the same men who feel they have to initiate the relationship often can’t take “no” for an answer. They feel that they have to somehow MAKE her want to go out with them - by lavish compliments, too much persistence, or what have you. I think that feeling is due to unfortunate cultural beliefs in our society.
My advice to Alexander is to abandon the belief that there is some sort of magic key to making a particular woman to like you. Just be polite and respectful and straightforward and accept whatever happens. You may get a lot of women who simply don’t want to go out with you, but you will eventually meet the one who will– and for the right reasons.
More dating advice for Alexander: One big way to become much more attractive in a woman’s eyes is to show an interest in her beyond her appearance. If you think she’s politically minded, ask her opinion on the death penalty. If she belongs to a book club, ask her about the books they’ve been reading. Ask her where she grew up and what that was like. Ask her what kind of music she likes. If you show that level of interest in her thoughts and interests, and then you ask her out on a date, she will simply infer that you find her pretty– and she’s much more likely to say yes to the date. I have always found it tough to say “no” to a date with someone who was obviously so interested in what I have to say.
But a guy who just says things like, “Boy, you’re really pretty” comes off as somewhat presumptuous and possibly manipulative. It was amazing to me how many guys I met during my single years who would tell me how beautiful I was, talk endlessly about themselves to try to impress me, and never once express any interest in anything I thought.
Just closing the tag here.
I wanted to be careful not to criticize any of the “complimenters” at Feministe.
I did, too, when I made the comment, though reading it now, it seems incomplete. I didn’t really get at what was bothering me about the whole thing, but Lauren linked to a post by Hissycat that captured it for me: by rushing to compliment and reassure Jill, the commenters were not addressing the real issue, which is that these guys feel some entitlement to pass judgment on women’s worth by ranking their looks, and getting drawn into defending the looks rather than going after the xoxo idiots for their presumption just buys into their valuation system.
And now that I look at my comment again, I see that I did that, too, to some extent: if I feel marginalized, it’s because I’ve internalized the whole valuation of looks that decrees that I’m lesser or invisible because I’m fat. At the same time, I know that because I am also conventionally pretty, I rise a notch or two — but it really irks me that I care.
This is an interesting post, and I’ve been masticating over it for some time.
I think zuzu makes a great point, and I think Hugo makes a great point, too. I don’t feel that Hugo is telling men *not* to compliment women… but to be aware of the social messages they’re reinforcing by certain compliments. My grasp (sorry, I’m not getting much sleep) is that by rushing to defend women that have been berated over looks, one is also reinforcing the same social message of a woman’s most important value being her appearance.
Personally, I’ve never minded compliments from people as long as it was in passing, polite and not made with any intentions. Please correct me if I’m being dumb, but what about complimenting people on their style? I’ve always found it nice when men or women have complimented me on an article of clothing- whether it’s “cool t-shirt” or “nice dress.” I’ve always taken that as a compliment of my taste rather than a compliment about my inherited looks. On the other hand, I do also really appreciate positive comments on things completely non-appearance related.
Alexander,
I have actually asked a lot of guys out on a date, picked some of them up, and paid for some dinners. When i go out on a date with men, I usually insist on paying my own way.
“But then will we hear a spate of complaints from women that “men don’t notice us”?”
I think you’re missing the whole point. Hugo isn’t saying that you can’t compliment a woman- he’s saying try complimenting her on something other than her appearance for a change.
Catty, that’s an accurate interpretation of what I was trying to convey.
Good mastication.
“It was amazing to me how many guys I met during my single years who would tell me how beautiful I was, talk endlessly about themselves to try to impress me, and never once express any interest in anything I thought.”
This is a very good point. Someone who is focused on your looks and not who you are is not a good person to date.
However, I do not see anything wrong with a compliment. The problem is what is behind the compliment.
In my mind, there is absolutely no harm on complimenting a person on how they look, unless I am doing it for some hidden (or not so hidden) agenda. I can tell someone that they look great without meaning “I’d like to get into your pants” or “Your mind means nothing to me.” When you assume that I only mean something sexual, then you are projecting your thoughts onto my comment.
Sometimes, we look for hidden meaning when there is none.
Now, if I were to say to you “You have fabulous breasts!” or “What a great butt!”, then I can understand taking insult.
Well, a lot of it is about context. I don’t want to imply that I would be insulted by someone saying, “You have nice eyes,” or “You’re very pretty,” but it might rub me the wrong way if I haven’t reached the right level of intimacy with that person.
I don’t want to play into the stereotype that feminists hate pleasure and attraction and beauty and flirtation. Personally, I love all of those things. But I think on a pure manners level, it’s always safer to refrain from compliments about a person’s physical attributes unless you’re somewhat intimate with that person.
Will, the harm comes because women are often complimented so much on their looks and so little on thier character. Even if it is not sexual, or sexual with the best of intentions, focusing on appearance says “This is what I notice & value about you” Hear that too much and you might start to believe it about yourself as well.
A few more good compliments
“That’s very interesting…”
“Good observation…”
“That took guts…”
“You are sweet…”
“This was a really nice dinner. Thanks for asking me out.”
PS My wife asked me out on our first date & paid. After that we more-or-less traded treating each other.
Happy Feminist:
There are certainly a number of areas when it is absolutely inappropriate: boss, prison guard, the person about to frisk you for weapons as you walk into a courthouse or into an airport.
Assuming that I am not a stalker or want anything from you, how are you harmed or demeaned by me saying “You look great in that outfit.” as I walk by with my girlfriend.
Should you assume the worst or the best about my intentions?
RonO:
I didnt say anything about not complimenting someone about more important attributes. That is why I said that you shouldnt date someone more focused on your looks than your mind.
However, why exclude compliments about appearance totally? Isnt that rather paternalistic and assumes that woman isnt smart enough to know the difference between demeaning her and complimenting her?
I try not to have hidden meanings in what I say.
I’m not saying that either. See the comment about the shoes above. And I agree with Happy Feminist & Hugo that it can be appropriate with your intimates.
However, you asked “In my mind, there is absolutely no harm on complimenting a person on how they look, unless I am doing it for some hidden (or not so hidden) agenda.” And I say regardless of your agenda, society focuses too much on women’s bodies. Appearance-based compliments to strangers and aquaintances, however well intentioned, re-inforce that idea. The cummulative effect is not good for many women.
In general, for me intent does not matter as much as affect.
Whoops, make that effect, not affect.
RonO:
Your approach sounds very demeaning to women. You are protecting all women because you believe that it might have some detrimental effect on them.
Your interpretation sounds like you are intentionally misreading for the sake of argument. I’ll repeat my first three sentences:
It’s not protecting. It’s doing no harm.
Will: No one is suggesting that a man should be pilloried for giving an innocuous compliment about a woman’s appearance. But if you do so to someone with whom you are not intimate, it may come across as a bit presumptuous, regardless of your intention. That’s all.
Why not take the safer course and give some of the compliments that Ron O. suggested. Why is it so important to you to comment on the appearance of women to whom you are not related or intimate?
“Are you trying to say that this hasn’t ever happened to you, that no woman’s ever taken you out on a date? Never? Not once?”
OK, this is typical, I brought up a legitimate point, and this was immediately used as an excuse to attack me personally. i.e., the implication is that I am a “loser” whom women do not find attractive. Therefore, what I am saying can be ignored or demeaned. At this point I am supposed to stand up and thump my chest and say “Women ask me out all the time.” Right? I don’t play that game.
Let me repeat my point: if women do not want men to compliment them then fine, we sensitive men will not compliment women. Will that make women happy?
Or will we see women start complaining that men no longer compliment them? Obviously, this is part of 50,000 years of male neglect of women.
Perhaps we will see new feminist inspired laws requiring men to compliment women or face lawsuits for “date neglect”?
Happy Feminist:
Who is being presumptuous? The person (male or female) making the compliment? Or the person receiving the compliment who presumes a hidden agenda?
I guess it just strikes me as treating women like children. Don’t get me wrong. I do not walk around telling women “Hey! You are really WEARING that skirt!!”. But, I suspect that you wouldnt think twice about complimenting me about my tie if you saw me in court. Does that mean that you do not respect me or that you want to jump me in a side conference room?
I’ve had plenty of women that I do not know compliment me on a tie or a coat. Do they not respect me? Did they want to have sex with me? How could I have missed that??!!?!?
I think that this is a very interesting topic. I appreciate your perspective.
if women do not want men to compliment them
Gosh, where did you get that idea? I certainly want my (male) boss to tell me “Hey, great job on that opposition you wrote.” I don’t recall that anyone here has suggested a woman’s husband must never, ever tell her he finds her beautiful. (Hugo said just the opposite, actually.)
I am losing my ability to remember the Latin names of the fallacies, but you’re taking the subject of discussion–men complimenting women’s physical appearance as though it were their most importantm and perhaps only worthwhile, feature–and reducing it to a ridiculous and simplistic argument: if you don’t like an acquaintance telling you that you have pretty eyes, you must NEVER want ANY man to say anything nice about you EVER, you uptight fembot!
But, I suspect that you wouldnt think twice about complimenting me about my tie if you saw me in court.
1) Do you compliment male colleagues’ ties?
2) A tie is not generally a piece of clothing that reflects the physical features of its wearer. “Nice tie, Bob” is not analogous to “Did you lose weight? You look fabulous!”
If you don’t believe me, try telling opposing counsel in court that you think his new pinstripe slacks really flatter him.
Thanks Will! I’ve been known to compliment people’s ties in court (assuming they wear nice ties!) But I wouldn’t say, “You have beautiful eyes,” or “You look great in that suit,” because that crosses the line from praising a person’s taste to praising his or her physical attributes.
It can seem presumptuous because — regardless of your intention — it plays into the notion that the man has a right to assess my looks and to find them either wanting or not. It just plays into too many problems that women face in our culture, as Hugo has pointed out.
I should point out that in my youth, I got a lot of appearance-based compliments, and I didn’t run around hmmphing to myself in disgust. But I was honestly a bit relieved when I grew older and got married because it was just draining to have so much focus — even positive focus — on my appearance. I vastly preferred compliments on my ideas or jokes or other attributes.
Mythago, why didn’t I say that? (Bangs head against desk)
mythago:
I compliment people on their ties all the time. I’ve also told many people that their suit looked great too.
“reflects the physical features of its wearer.”
What is my message to you if I tell you that your outfit looks great? Or that you look great today? Am I hitting on you? Am I telling you that you have a great butt that I would like to grab?
“I vastly preferred compliments on my ideas or jokes or other attributes.”
If you learned to tell better jokes, I would compliment you on those instead! (I kid!)
I agree with you completely.
I just believe that we should be careful about assuming insult or intention when well meaning people say things.
Gotta run– off to hubby’s office holiday party (postponed from last month due to bad weather). Sorry I can’t stick around!
I find this amusing, because while I was never particularly sensitive about my looks, and never actually noticed whether people were complimenting me on them or not, I have always been extremely sensitive about my intelligence. Saying, “That was a brilliant thought!” or “But you’re smart!” was a WAY better pickup line for me than “You look really nice!”
The other thing is that the vast majority of the “You look great today” lines I’ve gotten have come from other females. I have always been surrounded by physicists/mathematicians/engineers who don’t usually notice… much of anything. On the other hand, for this demographic, actually wearing *nice* clothes is weird enough that it will garner comment, usually in a tone of great surprise and/or condolences, no matter what sex is afflicted with the fancy dress.
What is my message to you if I tell you that your outfit looks great?
Exactly the point. If I don’t know you well, there IS no way for me to know if you just like my tailor, or if you are hitting on me–and that’s because of the history and social norms by which men are supposed to compliment women’s appearance, both because a) that’s an acceptable way to hit on them and b) women’s appearance is their most important feature, and one open to judging and commentary.
For example, yesterday I stopped by the office while I was all suited up from having gone to a deposition. A senior attorney passing by mentioned that I looked very professional. This is the kind of compliment he would make to a junior attorney of either sex–and, knowing this attorney, I wouldn’t dream that he was hitting on me.
A comment from a stranger, or one that had to do with attractiveness, would be very different.
mythago:
I am opposing counsel in a case with you. We have had cases against each other before. We are acquantances. As we are alone in the conference room before a deposition, I saw “Great suit!” You are offended? Have I demeaned you? Do you think I am trying to get into your pants?
Can you not tell me that you like my suit without wanting to jump me right on the conference table? Must every comment be evaluated for possible sexual content? Personally, I do not think that way.
Actually, will, I would figure you were trying to soften me up so you could pull something over on me in court. ;)
Mythago:
excellent answer. Spoken like a true lawyer.
What is my message to you if I tell you that your outfit looks great? Or that you look great today? Am I hitting on you? Am I telling you that you have a great butt that I would like to grab?
Let me get you to approach this from another perspective:
Years ago, my sister worked with a woman who was 400 pounds if she was an ounce, but was always beautifully dressed. This woman heard my sister, a tall and big girl, bemoaning the size on the tag in her clothes, one day in the bathroom. She told my sister something that inverts your question: “I can find something that has the ‘right’ size, and people will say, ‘Look at that fat lady in the tight skirt.’ Or I could wear something that fits me and looks good, and people will say, ‘That’s a beautiful skirt.’”
Make no mistake, this woman knew that she was as large as she was and that most people were not looking at her with desire. But if you make the effort to dress well, and someone compliments you on your effort, that feels like a validation of your efforts.
Another perspective: I’ve said that I am fat and conventionally pretty. I’ve been stopped by random strangers who’ve told me that I’m pretty/beautiful enough to have finally absorbed that (and to wonder what kind of attention I’d get if I were thin with the same face and even the half-assed fashion sense).
But I don’t depend on the opinions of random strangers or even men I date to validate that, so it was a bit of shock this summer to be with a man who, in the midst of things, asked me, “Do I make you feel beautiful?”
I just froze, because I didn’t know what to say. Was this guy suggesting that because he was, um, having relations with me that he was conferring beauty and therefore status on me? I didn’t need *him* to tell me that, since I already knew it (even if it had taken me years to internalize it).
(I never saw him again.)
Should you assume the worst or the best about my intentions?
Well, I can’t exactly see that it’s to my advantage to assume that no one ever thinks about having sex with me. I’ve tried working from that assumption, and it didn’t take me anywhere good.
Not that I assume everyone’s looking to immediately jump my bones, either.
In general, how welcome compliments about appearance are depends on a whole lot of factors: how well we know each other, how intimate a sort of compliment it is, whether the setting is professional or social, what the person’s other body language is, etc.
OK, this is typical, I brought up a legitimate point, and this was immediately used as an excuse to attack me personally. i.e., the implication is that I am a “loser” whom women do not find attractive.
No no, you misunderstand. The implication is that if you are not physically attractive enough to attract others to do the work of asking you out - and if you’re not, it’s certainly no fault of yours; nobody gets to decide how sexy they are - you’re just going to have to bite the bullet and do the asking yourself.
You know, like a woman would.
Let me repeat my point: if women do not want men to compliment them then fine, we sensitive men will not compliment women. Will that make women happy?
Yes.
“In general, how welcome compliments about appearance are depends on a whole lot of factors: how well we know each other, how intimate a sort of compliment it is, whether the setting is professional or social, what the person’s other body language is, etc.”
Lynn:
I agree with you completely.
zuzu:
I do not understand what you are trying to say.
will, I believe what zuzu was saying is that complimenting someone’s clothing choices is different than complimenting their appearance. “Nice suit,” or “Hey, sharp tie” from a work colleague probably means “You look professional and you have good taste in clothes.” Comments about physical attractiveness are rarely appropriate, as are comments from strangers.
I mean, if a judge told you “Lookin’ fine in those pants, Counsel,” you’d probably be a little weirded out.
But another thing that’s going on here is that in our culture, women are judged on their attractiveness to men and it’s generally considered appropriate for men to notice and comment on that. And, as Lynn alludes to, while it’s silly to assume every man is interested in sleeping with you, you can also get into trouble assuming none of them are.
Someone brought up compliments given men about their wives’/girlfriends’/sig. others’ looks. This happened to me recently — I was holiday shopping with a woman and a saleswoman/proprietor said something lie “your wife is very pretty”. I was taken aback, first by the assumption of marriage, but then by the “compliment”. I was actually being complimented for… what, exactly? For having captured a pretty girl? For my taste in women? For being powerful enough (in whatever way) to attract beautiful partners? What if I’d been with a physically unattractive woman? Obviously that would reflect poorly on me, no matter how smart, caring, funny, outgoing, talented, or successful she was — and, for that matter, no matter how smart, caring, funny, outgoing, talented, or successful *I* am.
But more to the point, these kind of compliments reinforce the notion that women are property, that a man’s worth is expressed through his ability to surround himself with beautiful objects — a woman, a car, the right clothes, the right jewelry, the right home and furnishings, and so on. “My” woman becomes an attribute of my self.
Now, I know women comment on their friends’ boyfriends looks, but is there a similar thing among strangers? I don’t think many men or women would tell a stranger “your boyfriend is very handsome”. But if they do — is it the same thing? I’m not sure at all.
mythago:
I would think the judge was stroking me a little before totally rejecting my argument.
We agree on the rest.
Dustin:
Are the property notions your’s or the salesperson’s? While I agree with you that those compliments can sound eerily similar to compliments about something that you own (I’ve had the same thoughts as you), I wonder whether those thoughts result from our own feelings of worthiness? Just a thought.
Will,
I don’t *think* I was projecting, but who knows? I remember at the time being speechless, wondering how I was supposed to respond. Do I thank her? After all, I didn’t have anything to do with the loveliness or lack thereof of, well, of anyone — even, for the most part, myself. Should I feel pleased? I know a lot of men like the way other people look at them when they have a beautiful woman on their arm (q.v. Clapton’s “Wonderful Tonight”) — is it a point of pride to be complimented on the attractiveness of a woman “under my charge”, so to speak? (I could say “in my stable” too, couldn’t I? I mean, people do say such things…)
In the event, I felt angry. I should add that the context was a Chinatown jade shop, specifically the jewelry counter — the gist of the conversation was that I ought to buy some *very* expensive jewelry for such a lovely lady. Apparently, another man had bought his wife a bracelet (they ran about $600!) and came back to get the matching earrings and necklace. The compliment itself was immersed in a sales pitch, which only intensified my feeling that a man “such as myself”, who obviously has good taste in things (as witness my taste in women), should recognize the value of the items on display. But more than that, I felt — why wouldn’t the salesperson compliment *the woman herself*? My companion actually played a part in the construction of her public “face”. If you buy into the notion that it’s better for a woman to be conventionally attractive than conventionally unattractive, surely the woman is the proper recipient of such a compliment, no? What motives could someone have to congratualte *me* on my companion’s attractiveness?
Dustin:
On a related topic, I HATE jewelry commercials. From October to February, we are bombarded with this message:
Women: If your man doesnt buy you expensive jewelry, you are a loser and he is probably having sex with someone else.
Men: If you do not buy “your” woman expensive jewelry, you do not love her and you are a loser.
I hope that we can all get behind hating those commercials.
Oh GOD YES! I hate jewelery commericials: not only are they buying into the commericialistic aspect of what love is supposed to be, I HATE FREAKING DIAMONDS and I hate the presumption that I’m supposed to like them. Someone who’s buying me diamonds might as well be saying “I know nothing about you so here’s a totally generic gift that I spent a lot of money on, isn’t that kewl?”
Will and Alexander, I’m getting the impression that you want to continue being able to compliment females on their looks, or at the very least, being able to without there being any negative consequences. Am I understanding you?
The questions I have, if this presumption is right, is “Why”? Why do you feel it’s so important to be able to comment on a woman’s appearance? Or, at the very least, realize that when you do compliment a woman on her appearance, it comes with a whole slew of societal expectations and history, that women may find (at least collectively) presumptious?
Alexander, it sucks to have to be the guy that has to work up the courage to ask a girl down. It sucks just as much to be the chick who has to passively put out the signals of wanting to get together with a guy, especially since this has the negative effect of getting the guy you don’t want and him feeling entiteled to your company. When you go up to a female, you have the option of her saying “yes” or “no”, end of conversation. I could go out, and have tons of guys I have to say “No” to about fifty million times before they get hit by a clue-by-four.
Let me repeat my point: if women do not want men to compliment them then fine, we sensitive men will not compliment women. Will that make women happy?
Point has been stated, but I’ll repeat the sentiment. Why is it when we say “Complimenting us on our appearance is patronizing” you hear “I can’t compliment women”? There are a million other ways to compliment women, but *gasp* they aren’t a one-size fits all for every women and they need to reflect us as INDIVIDUALS?
Or will we see women start complaining that men no longer compliment them?
Only if, you know, you actually stop complimenting women. And there are worse things that could happen then a group of people complaining about another group of women.
Obviously, this is part of 50,000 years of male neglect of women.
I’m not even sure what this is all about. The Patriarchy has been actively oppressing women for eons, but that isn’t neglect, and patriarchy does not equal men.
Perhaps we will see new feminist inspired laws requiring men to compliment women or face lawsuits for “date neglect”?
Again, I’m not even sure what this is about. Is this in reference to “date rape” laws, that judging from your phrasing, you think are an unnecessary infringement by feminists (and women in general) on men? Or, what exactly? Where did you get the link from “Beauty compliments are not helpful” to “mandatory compliments of the PC variety or get locked up in jail”?
Honestly, Alexander, I tried to be polite on this one, but you are awfully close to making me want to go flame war on your nalgas.
antigone:
women might collectively find presumptious?
Do you think a majority of women find a compliment presumptious?
Personally, I agree with Lynn that the propriety of compliments depends so much on context.
I was/am really more curious as to the assumptions and presumptions of those who think that compliments always have hidden meanings. Two different men might give the same compliment to the same women. One will cause the woman to want to rush and take a shower. The other might cause no bad feelings.
Likewise, two different women might receive a compliment in entirely different ways.
Knowing your audience and knowing the complimentor make a big difference.
Having said all of that, I find the situation of the stranger complimenting on a great outfit the most interesting question. If the complimentor will have no further contact with the woman, there is no expection of getting some “action.” I think the only time that I have ever done that is I once told a woman that she had a great hat. I was walking with my girlfriend and she agreed.
Now that’s interesting. I happen to have a collection of great hats. I get lots of compliments from strangers, both men and women, on my great hats. These compliments don’t rub me the wrong way in the least. I think that’s because: a) the compliment has nothing to do with my physical attributes, it has to do with my taste in hats; b) the hat is not attached to any part of my body that could be considered sexual (”Great skirt!” or “Great T-shirt!” would be a bit more ambiguous because it implies that the person’s looking maybe a little too closely at those portions of my anatomy); and c) a hat is sort of an unusual item of apparel in our culture so most of these compliments almost come across as people reacting in surprise as opposed to going out of their way to approach and compliment me.
I now know that if I were to ever try any cases against HappyF, I should nodd leeringly, and say “great skirt” to to try to throw her off so she wouldnt beat up on me in court.
Another aspect of all this is the compliments we give to little boys and girls. Watching my niece and nephew grow up, I’ve noticed that from infancy onwards, they have attracted very different kinds of compliments from adults. My nephew gets the stereotypical compliments that focus on his potential ability to do well athletically: “My how you’ve grown! You should try out for the basketball team! I hear your serve is improving!” My niece always gets, “Oh how pretty you are! What a pretty little dress!” I think a lifetime of this kind of thing contributes to the internalized expectations boys and girls have of themselves and what they have to offer the world.
This is why I remain anonymous — so no one can tell my real opposing counsel all my secret weaknesses.
HappyF:
My son played football this year for the first time (not my idea!).
Associated with his team is a huge cheerleading team. I hated it. Absolutely hate the idea of girls cheerleading for boys. Of course, there is also the horribly sexy moves that they have these little girls do. Awful.
Oh yeah — don’t even get me going on cheerleading. Or Miss America.
will, there are also people who are clearly harassing who don’t expect to get action. The guy who yells “Nice ass!” out of a speeding car is not really expecting me to run after the car and hop onto his lap; he just wants to express his opinion and, possibly, to annoy me.
Where I practice law, if you said “Nice skirt” you would probably be asked if you wanted to know where to get one just like it. ;)
Watching my niece and nephew grow up, I’ve noticed that from infancy onwards, they have attracted very different kinds of compliments from adults.
Weird, isn’t it? When my oldest was a baby, she wore a lot of blue hand-me-downs and got comments like “Hi, Tiger!” and “What a big, strong boy!” Whereas if people first found out she was a girl, she’d get comments about what a pretty baby she was.
mythago:
I agree that someone who yells out “nice ass” is really just showing his.
With regard to the “Nice Skirt” comment, doesnt it depend on what my intentions are? It is ok for your friend to say “nice skirt”? It is ok for your husband to say “nice skirt”? It is not generally ok for your boss or the judge to say “nice skirt”?
But how about a female coworker? Is it just men who are prohibited from complimenting you?
How about if we are equals (ie I am not in a position of power over you) and I am standing with my wife?
Are we in a society were you assume that I am either harassing you or want to jump you by complimenting you? Why must there be hidden meanings in what people say? Maybe “nice skirt” means “nice skirt.”
That’s what I mean by collectively. Individually, someone complimenting me on my looks, or even just commenting on my looks, may not make that big of deal to my psyche. I may even appreciate it (ie, I dressed up very nicely for my bf, I’d hope that he noticed that I put a lot of effort into my appearance).
But years of many people complimenting/commenting on my looks adds up. And that’s the point: total strangers over time, end up making me feel like the only thing important is my looks.
Are we in a society were you assume that I am either harassing you or want to jump you by complimenting you?
I thought we were in a society where it was considered inappropriate and rude to volunteer comments on the physical appearance of strangers. The rule that says you shouldn’t yell “Love your top, baby!” as you drive past is the same rule that says it’s inappropriate for my children to walk up to a child in leg braces and ask “Why do you walk funny?”
There are no hidden messages from the guy yelling “nice ass” either. The mere fact that the meaning is plain and there are no hidden motives is not really the issue, is it?
On top of that, you can add issues of power (my boss should not be commenting on how nice my tits are, and thankfully doesn’t), familiarity (opposing counsel may not be my friends, but I know them fairly well) and sexuality (nobody is ever going to tell you that you really know how to work that tie, and tie length is not like hem length).
Communication is a two-way street. Good intentions are important but not determinative–as you probably know, an awful lot of men who make inappropriate, even harassing, comments genuinely believe they are being complimentary and that it’s unreasonable to react negatively to them.
mythago:
Let’s eliminate physical attributes for a moment. (I am certainly not arguing that I should be able to tell you that you have a great ass or to nodd leeringly, look at your breasts, and say “Love your shirt”.)
Please address compliments without issues of power. Can only women compliment you on your clothes? Or is that not allowed either?
Antigone:
I like you and I do not know or care what you look like. I do understand that it is important to give the message to women and men that their minds are the most important body part.
Can only women compliment you on your clothes?
Again, I don’t know where you practice law, but where I am, it would be a mistake to assume that men are sexually interested in me or women aren’t.
I don’t see that it’s so hard to limit one’s comments about other people’s appearance to situations where you know your comments are appropriate and will be taken as such. If you don’t know that I will say “Thanks, I like this suit too,” why do you have to tell me your opinion of it? Is your larynx going to explode?
Mythago:
I had hoped that it was clear that I do not walk around complimenting people that I do not know. I practice law in Virginia. And I do not think that your comment about mistaken assumptions is limited to your area. Same sex interest is not limited by geography.
But, I am curious about whether your reaction is the same when a female compliments your clothes as a man. You seem to imply that it is, but I am not sure.
PS: I am starting to feel like a neanderthal simply by expressing my curiosity about your opinions. I really am not a leecherous, leering, breast-ogling, compliment maker.
When a man compliments me about a specific piece of clothing, I will probably think he is gay…
Really I don’t see what the big deal here is. Some people have better social skills than others so unless you are confident that you can read a situation and a person well enough to know that what you intend as a compliment will be recieved in the spirit you intend it, well, restrain yourself. It’s really not going to hurt…
How compliments are recived/taken, or the suitability of the compliments themselves depend on the relationship (or lack thereof), personal/and or professional- between the giver and the receiver. I had a male boss that would make comments like, “nice skirt.” That said, he was a great boss, very professional, and he used to work as a fashion buyer for a major high-end depratment store for decades before he retired to start his own company (doing something completely different). He would easily tell a guy that his shirt was a beautiful color as much as he would tell a woman her jacket is tailored exceptionally well. His demeanor, his tone, and his personality made it a genuine compliment and nothing more (and no, he was not gay). He made it a point to give everyone compliments once a day about something- especially those that were based on performance.
I don’t believe that there’s anything wrong with making compliments- I think it’s important to put some thought into the compliment, be polite, and be more specific. I think it’s important to compliment people without having an ulterior motive. I think that it’s also important to give recognition (which is essentially what a compliment is) to someone’s talents and effort- not just their appearance. I know that the best compliments I have received were thoughtful ones that pointed out a specific detail, because it also gave me an indication about the person giving it as well.
Let’s eliminate physical attributes for a moment. (I am certainly not arguing that I should be able to tell you that you have a great ass or to nodd leeringly, look at your breasts, and say “Love your shirt”.)
Please address compliments without issues of power. Can only women compliment you on your clothes? Or is that not allowed either?
That’s one reason I brought up that woman my sister worked with who was very heavy. For her, being sure that people commented on her clothes instead of on her body was a means of ensuring that she wasn’t insulted or subject to negative attention. Sort of the inverse of the situation most people are discussing here, where the person doing the complimenting tries to avoid making a positive comment on the person’s body by making a more neutral comment on the person’s clothes.
When a man compliments me about a specific piece of clothing, I will probably think he is gay…
For me, it depends a lot on the item of clothing. I have an embroidered Hungarian vest that I’ve been complimented on; if a man compliments me on that I assume that it’s because the vest is so unusual, not because he’s starting at my breasts or because he’s gay. On the other hand, if a guy ever said “nice shorts” to me, I’d suspect a sexual interest. And if a guy complimented me on, say, a bracelet, I’d think he was unusually interested in jewelry for a guy.
Okay, even though this thread has sort of died out, I just found it and have a few cents to add.
Will- perhaps a better way to think of what Hugo is encouraging (fewer compliments on appearance and more compliments on other things) is that by commenting on something other than appearance you will guarantee that the woman will not be complimented *only* on appearance. Think of an activity where people go around the room and give compliments to everyone. You notice that one person is only complimented on their handwriting. You decide that you will compliment that person on something totally unrelated to their handwriting to offset the trend. Girls will recieve comments on their appearance, by limiting your comments to things other than appearance you are offsetting what other people are unconciously doing.
And did anyone else find it disturbing that from Alexander’s comments it seems like he believes that [not complimenting a woman’s appearance] = [not complimenting a woman]. It’s almost like there isn’t anything else to compliment a woman about.
Andermom:
“perhaps a better way to think of what Hugo is encouraging (fewer compliments on appearance and more compliments on other things) is that by commenting on something other than appearance you will guarantee that the woman will not be complimented *only* on appearance.”
I have no disagreement with you. My questions were really more fleshing out people’s presumptions about compliments from men as opposed to women.
I also find it interesting that some people assume that only gay men know anything about fashion. That seems inappropriately sterotypical.
But, I am curious about whether your reaction is the same when a female compliments your clothes as a man.
Yes. It has a lot more to do with how well I know them and their manner.
By the way, if a strange man makes a comment about my clothing, I don’t assume he wants me. I do assume he was raised by wolves. ;)
mythago:
Mowgli knew fashion?
You sometimes see this kind of patriarchy-reinforcing compliment in other areas. For instance, somewhere lately I was reading someone’s comment on another blog (I think it was Twisty’s blog “I Blame the Patriarchy”) and the commenter wrote about having seen a woman with facial hair walking with her lesbian partner down the street. (This was in the context of a discussion about women shaving and the socially less-optional behavior of shaving your face if you are a woman who grows a beard or mustache.)
What the commenter said was something like, “And she was beautiful! And her partner knew it.”
You can read this as something like, to the extent that beauty is how we describe what is desirable in a female person, she possesed that quality. But to me it always has the ring of agreeing that beauty is important, and just wanting to change the rules by which it’s defined. I see that as a losing game.
I’m content to simply say that I am not attractive, where “attractive” means “tending to attract.” In this time and place, at least, my appearance does not attract people. All other things being equal, it would be more useful to be more attractive, but it is a small thing in my life, and doesn’t bother me on a gut level. I’m not sure how I got to that place, but it’s a good place to be.
By the way, if a strange man makes a comment about my clothing, I don’t assume he wants me.
I was going to tell you that your skirt is stuck in the back of your underwear, but now I’ll just let it go.
I didn’t read the original post by the woman, but I read all the posts on this site. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I have a family freind who is maybe not conventionally beuatiful, or sexy. She is beautiful to me because of her intelligence, honesty, and just something about her that I resonate with. I have told her she was pretty, because I honestly thought so. She also tells me I have pretty eyes, which is a compliment I’ve heard my whole life. When I was a boy, I was asked if I played football, and that sort of thing, but I wasn’t very interested in sports. It seems to me that the emergence of women as free individuals with autonomy is unprecedented in “his-story” and that it’s radically changing society. Beauty is a part of life, and I like to look at women, but I don’t usually say anything. Don’t women look at men? Maybe men should have to suffer being complimented on their looks as well. Being told I have pretty eyes sometimes feels kind of wierd, but I think my freind is sincere. I don’t know if I’m pro-feminist, it seems some women don’t trust it, but I definitely don’t want to be anti-feminist. I’m doing the best I can to adjust to women’s rights, and I don’t think I’m the only one.