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	<title>Comments on: Hugo&#8217;s &#8220;white boy teaching outfit&#8221;</title>
	<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2006/02/02/hugos-white-boy-teaching-outfit/</link>
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	<pubDate>Fri, 05 Dec 2008 12:32:21 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Shelly</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2006/02/02/hugos-white-boy-teaching-outfit/#comment-15174</link>
		<dc:creator>Shelly</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Feb 2006 23:55:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2006/02/02/hugos-white-boy-teaching-outfit/#comment-15174</guid>
		<description>I never thought I'd see a discussion between 20 or so people about a guy's clothes and the comments that ensued.  


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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I never thought I&#8217;d see a discussion between 20 or so people about a guy&#8217;s clothes and the comments that ensued.</p>
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		<title>By: rabbit</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2006/02/02/hugos-white-boy-teaching-outfit/#comment-15173</link>
		<dc:creator>rabbit</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Feb 2006 13:49:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2006/02/02/hugos-white-boy-teaching-outfit/#comment-15173</guid>
		<description>We're Jewish, by the way...just mentioning so that 'Jewish Lady purse' thing doesn't sound as awful.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>We&#8217;re Jewish, by the way&#8230;just mentioning so that &#8216;Jewish Lady purse&#8217; thing doesn&#8217;t sound as awful.</p>
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		<title>By: rabbit</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2006/02/02/hugos-white-boy-teaching-outfit/#comment-15172</link>
		<dc:creator>rabbit</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Feb 2006 13:40:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2006/02/02/hugos-white-boy-teaching-outfit/#comment-15172</guid>
		<description>I'm late to this thread...but I think this is being over-thought.  I'm one of those people who dresses and looks very 'white'...and my friends giggle about how incredibly out of place I am saying anything 'slang-like' or in some social situations (like when I actually figured out what fo' shizzle meant, and tried to explain how weird I found that whole phrase...just trying to pronounce fo' shizzle was really kind of embarassing, even amung my also-very-white roommates...I can't even figure out a way to type that that doesn't look utterly square).  Despite all the teasing I get for being 'really white' it doesn't seem to be a hostile or political thing.  Just...I'm 'white' in that stereotype 'square' way, and they think its funny, probably especially because I have such a diverse social group.  So I would think they were just implying that you looked 'white' in the way that it means 'straight-laced,' or even 'suburban,' you know?  Seems like the clothes you describe would fit into the 'totally white' category...they were probably just meaning to tease you about how stereotypical 'white-boy' it looked.  Like how I tease my mom about her 'Jewish Lady' purse that's shiny gold and bigger than her torso.  :-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m late to this thread&#8230;but I think this is being over-thought.  I&#8217;m one of those people who dresses and looks very &#8216;white&#8217;&#8230;and my friends giggle about how incredibly out of place I am saying anything &#8217;slang-like&#8217; or in some social situations (like when I actually figured out what fo&#8217; shizzle meant, and tried to explain how weird I found that whole phrase&#8230;just trying to pronounce fo&#8217; shizzle was really kind of embarassing, even amung my also-very-white roommates&#8230;I can&#8217;t even figure out a way to type that that doesn&#8217;t look utterly square).  Despite all the teasing I get for being &#8216;really white&#8217; it doesn&#8217;t seem to be a hostile or political thing.  Just&#8230;I&#8217;m &#8216;white&#8217; in that stereotype &#8217;square&#8217; way, and they think its funny, probably especially because I have such a diverse social group.  So I would think they were just implying that you looked &#8216;white&#8217; in the way that it means &#8217;straight-laced,&#8217; or even &#8217;suburban,&#8217; you know?  Seems like the clothes you describe would fit into the &#8216;totally white&#8217; category&#8230;they were probably just meaning to tease you about how stereotypical &#8216;white-boy&#8217; it looked.  Like how I tease my mom about her &#8216;Jewish Lady&#8217; purse that&#8217;s shiny gold and bigger than her torso.  :-)</p>
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		<title>By: Hugo</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2006/02/02/hugos-white-boy-teaching-outfit/#comment-15171</link>
		<dc:creator>Hugo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Feb 2006 17:03:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2006/02/02/hugos-white-boy-teaching-outfit/#comment-15171</guid>
		<description>Thanks, Alexandra...  I will ask, perhaps today!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks, Alexandra&#8230;  I will ask, perhaps today!</p>
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		<title>By: Alexandra Trippe</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2006/02/02/hugos-white-boy-teaching-outfit/#comment-15170</link>
		<dc:creator>Alexandra Trippe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Feb 2006 16:02:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2006/02/02/hugos-white-boy-teaching-outfit/#comment-15170</guid>
		<description>First....your style is only considered to be associated with gay men in this country...if you were in London, for instance, no one would even think about it.  Second, I have a question for you....have you thought about asking them what the meant?  Sometimes I find that when I go out on a limb to ask, what may seem to be a silly question, I get a connection with the person like I've never had before.

side note:  your style is great....don't change</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>First&#8230;.your style is only considered to be associated with gay men in this country&#8230;if you were in London, for instance, no one would even think about it.  Second, I have a question for you&#8230;.have you thought about asking them what the meant?  Sometimes I find that when I go out on a limb to ask, what may seem to be a silly question, I get a connection with the person like I&#8217;ve never had before.</p>
<p>side note:  your style is great&#8230;.don&#8217;t change</p>
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		<title>By: Mr. Bad</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2006/02/02/hugos-white-boy-teaching-outfit/#comment-15169</link>
		<dc:creator>Mr. Bad</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Feb 2006 11:37:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2006/02/02/hugos-white-boy-teaching-outfit/#comment-15169</guid>
		<description>Arjet, I've heard your arguments before and I'm sorry but I just don't buy them.  We are no longer in the Jim Crow south, haven't been for many decades, and the 'power imbalances' you describe not only for the most part don't exist any longer, they're not nearly as simplistic and clear-cut as you try to make them out to be.  To me arguments like yours sound like weak excuses for racism and sexism against white males by all other segments of society.  And if you think that you're going to eliminate racism and sexism by excusing and in some cases condoning racism and sexism - especially against the minority/majority (white women being majority/majority) - then you're not thinking clearly at all.  

This type of thing can only make the situation worse, not better.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Arjet, I&#8217;ve heard your arguments before and I&#8217;m sorry but I just don&#8217;t buy them.  We are no longer in the Jim Crow south, haven&#8217;t been for many decades, and the &#8216;power imbalances&#8217; you describe not only for the most part don&#8217;t exist any longer, they&#8217;re not nearly as simplistic and clear-cut as you try to make them out to be.  To me arguments like yours sound like weak excuses for racism and sexism against white males by all other segments of society.  And if you think that you&#8217;re going to eliminate racism and sexism by excusing and in some cases condoning racism and sexism - especially against the minority/majority (white women being majority/majority) - then you&#8217;re not thinking clearly at all.  </p>
<p>This type of thing can only make the situation worse, not better.</p>
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		<title>By: Russell Arben Fox</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2006/02/02/hugos-white-boy-teaching-outfit/#comment-15168</link>
		<dc:creator>Russell Arben Fox</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 05 Feb 2006 23:58:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2006/02/02/hugos-white-boy-teaching-outfit/#comment-15168</guid>
		<description>I wear a jacket and tie when I teach. I don't think it has anything to do with asserting white male privilege or investing in a white academic power structure. It does has something to do with this vague desire of mine to someday be an old fuddy-duddy and have everyone refer to me as Mr. Chips.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I wear a jacket and tie when I teach. I don&#8217;t think it has anything to do with asserting white male privilege or investing in a white academic power structure. It does has something to do with this vague desire of mine to someday be an old fuddy-duddy and have everyone refer to me as Mr. Chips.</p>
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		<title>By: Scott Thomas</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2006/02/02/hugos-white-boy-teaching-outfit/#comment-15167</link>
		<dc:creator>Scott Thomas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 05 Feb 2006 21:56:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2006/02/02/hugos-white-boy-teaching-outfit/#comment-15167</guid>
		<description>It was a racist comment.  I suggest you sue him and the school for creating a hostile work environment for whites to work in.  Imagine if you had said - there goes X wearing his black guy thugwear.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It was a racist comment.  I suggest you sue him and the school for creating a hostile work environment for whites to work in.  Imagine if you had said - there goes X wearing his black guy thugwear.</p>
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		<title>By: Arjet</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2006/02/02/hugos-white-boy-teaching-outfit/#comment-15166</link>
		<dc:creator>Arjet</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 05 Feb 2006 19:50:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2006/02/02/hugos-white-boy-teaching-outfit/#comment-15166</guid>
		<description>I think racial issues in the US are a lot more nuanced than comments like these make them out to be:
&lt;blockquote&gt;If you'd have overheard a couple of white male colleagues remark on a black guy wearing a full-out FUBU ensemble as the dude in the "ghetto outfit" would you have advised your black colleague to just laugh it off?

and

That comment was exactly as proper as if you had said, "There goes Prof X in one of his 'black boy teaching outfits.'" Neither more nor less. Crude racial remarks are not acceptable no matter what race the speaker.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I think that both of those would be true &lt;i&gt;if&lt;/i&gt; we lived in a society where there was racial tension, but not racial inequality.  Unfortunately, because we have profound racial (as well as other forms of) inequality, we have a series of profoundly asymetrical relationships: man/woman, white/black, queer/straight, etc.

In asymetrical relationships, things like insults, complaints, stereotypes, humor, etc. are affected by which side of the relationship they originate from.

In the example of an asymetrical parent/child relationship, there's a big difference between "I Hate You!" coming from my 7 year-old to me, as opposed to that same statement coming from me to him.  Because of the power imbalance, the first is rude and annoying.  The second is threatening and potentially quite damaging.

That's not a perfect analogy, so maybe this is better: if it had been one of Hugo's students making that remark, it would have been rude and inappropriately personal.  If, however, Hugo had said that to a student, it would have been seen as rude, inappropriately personal, and a threat.  Hugo has tremendous power over his students.  They have relatively very little over him.  His (hypothetical) insults to them would not only cause distress, but could very well be a sign of impending punishment.  A struggling student might even change the way he/she dresses in class if they thought that Hugo's disapproval might affect his attitude towards them and thus their grade.

This is the same reason that a "Black Faculty Caucus" would be received very differently from a "White Faculty Caucus."  Shutting White people out of a "Black Faculty Caucus" allows a bunch of subalterns to talk without worrying what the hegemon will think. Shutting Black people out of a "White Faculty Caucus" (or golf club or Chamber of Commerce) means keeping them out of places where influential connections are made, where power is gained, and where decisions are made.

All of which is a roundabout way of saying that the insult is not exactly the same coming from different sides of the asymetric relationship.  For White people, insults about their clothing coming from Black people put them in fear of, at worst, fashion snobbery and exclusion from certain social groups with which they may have little contact.  For Black people, insults about their clothing coming from White people put them in fear of job descrimination, not being taken seriously by people with significant power over them, and even legal intimidation (i.e., have Hugo and his colleague in the FUBU outfit both go shopping at a jewelry store.  See which one gets followed around by the security guard).

And that's all, of course, contingent on a lot of things.  Things would be different if Hugo were teaching at a historically Black college, and his senior colleagues, department head, and dean (all Black) were deriding his "white boy teaching outfits."  Though, still, the situation would not be a mirror image.  Hugo would still enjoy vast privilege in society at large that even his Dean would not.  The asymetrical relationship remains asymetrical. This is why Reagan's "color-blind society" was such a sham: if gross imbalances based on color exist, we can't just make them go away by pretending race doesn't exist as a social construct.  Saying that words, actions, and clothing all mean the same no matter the color of the person is ignoring the power differential, virtually always to the detriment of the people on the short end of the differential.

Whew.  I do go on.  Two more points, though: 1) Depending on Hugo's relationship with his collegues the remark could be seen as anything from friendly teasing to a pointed barb.  It seems like it felt like more of the latter, suggesting they either misjudged their relationship with Hugo or were deliberately trying to offend. 2)It does sound like a "white boy teaching outfit" (or in less loaded terminology, "a fashion statement that signifies a particular type of Whiteness, including qualities perceived as both advantageous and disadvantageous by those who construct their identity as non-White").

If we take Bannana Republic as a GAP-equivalent, I'm reminded of the Seinfeld episode where Elaine and her new boyfriend, each of whom thought the other considered themselves a racial minority, discover that they both think of themselves as White:&lt;blockquote&gt;  
Darryl: So, what are you?
Elaine: I'm white.
Darryl: So, we're just a couple of white people?
Elaine: I guess.
Darryl: Oh.
Elaine: Yeah. So do you want to go to the Gap?
Darryl: Sure.&lt;/blockquote&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think racial issues in the US are a lot more nuanced than comments like these make them out to be:</p>
<blockquote><p>If you&#8217;d have overheard a couple of white male colleagues remark on a black guy wearing a full-out FUBU ensemble as the dude in the &#8220;ghetto outfit&#8221; would you have advised your black colleague to just laugh it off?</p>
<p>and</p>
<p>That comment was exactly as proper as if you had said, &#8220;There goes Prof X in one of his &#8216;black boy teaching outfits.&#8217;&#8221; Neither more nor less. Crude racial remarks are not acceptable no matter what race the speaker.</p></blockquote>
<p>I think that both of those would be true <i>if</i> we lived in a society where there was racial tension, but not racial inequality.  Unfortunately, because we have profound racial (as well as other forms of) inequality, we have a series of profoundly asymetrical relationships: man/woman, white/black, queer/straight, etc.</p>
<p>In asymetrical relationships, things like insults, complaints, stereotypes, humor, etc. are affected by which side of the relationship they originate from.</p>
<p>In the example of an asymetrical parent/child relationship, there&#8217;s a big difference between &#8220;I Hate You!&#8221; coming from my 7 year-old to me, as opposed to that same statement coming from me to him.  Because of the power imbalance, the first is rude and annoying.  The second is threatening and potentially quite damaging.</p>
<p>That&#8217;s not a perfect analogy, so maybe this is better: if it had been one of Hugo&#8217;s students making that remark, it would have been rude and inappropriately personal.  If, however, Hugo had said that to a student, it would have been seen as rude, inappropriately personal, and a threat.  Hugo has tremendous power over his students.  They have relatively very little over him.  His (hypothetical) insults to them would not only cause distress, but could very well be a sign of impending punishment.  A struggling student might even change the way he/she dresses in class if they thought that Hugo&#8217;s disapproval might affect his attitude towards them and thus their grade.</p>
<p>This is the same reason that a &#8220;Black Faculty Caucus&#8221; would be received very differently from a &#8220;White Faculty Caucus.&#8221;  Shutting White people out of a &#8220;Black Faculty Caucus&#8221; allows a bunch of subalterns to talk without worrying what the hegemon will think. Shutting Black people out of a &#8220;White Faculty Caucus&#8221; (or golf club or Chamber of Commerce) means keeping them out of places where influential connections are made, where power is gained, and where decisions are made.</p>
<p>All of which is a roundabout way of saying that the insult is not exactly the same coming from different sides of the asymetric relationship.  For White people, insults about their clothing coming from Black people put them in fear of, at worst, fashion snobbery and exclusion from certain social groups with which they may have little contact.  For Black people, insults about their clothing coming from White people put them in fear of job descrimination, not being taken seriously by people with significant power over them, and even legal intimidation (i.e., have Hugo and his colleague in the FUBU outfit both go shopping at a jewelry store.  See which one gets followed around by the security guard).</p>
<p>And that&#8217;s all, of course, contingent on a lot of things.  Things would be different if Hugo were teaching at a historically Black college, and his senior colleagues, department head, and dean (all Black) were deriding his &#8220;white boy teaching outfits.&#8221;  Though, still, the situation would not be a mirror image.  Hugo would still enjoy vast privilege in society at large that even his Dean would not.  The asymetrical relationship remains asymetrical. This is why Reagan&#8217;s &#8220;color-blind society&#8221; was such a sham: if gross imbalances based on color exist, we can&#8217;t just make them go away by pretending race doesn&#8217;t exist as a social construct.  Saying that words, actions, and clothing all mean the same no matter the color of the person is ignoring the power differential, virtually always to the detriment of the people on the short end of the differential.</p>
<p>Whew.  I do go on.  Two more points, though: 1) Depending on Hugo&#8217;s relationship with his collegues the remark could be seen as anything from friendly teasing to a pointed barb.  It seems like it felt like more of the latter, suggesting they either misjudged their relationship with Hugo or were deliberately trying to offend. 2)It does sound like a &#8220;white boy teaching outfit&#8221; (or in less loaded terminology, &#8220;a fashion statement that signifies a particular type of Whiteness, including qualities perceived as both advantageous and disadvantageous by those who construct their identity as non-White&#8221;).</p>
<p>If we take Bannana Republic as a GAP-equivalent, I&#8217;m reminded of the Seinfeld episode where Elaine and her new boyfriend, each of whom thought the other considered themselves a racial minority, discover that they both think of themselves as White:<br />
<blockquote>
Darryl: So, what are you?<br />
Elaine: I&#8217;m white.<br />
Darryl: So, we&#8217;re just a couple of white people?<br />
Elaine: I guess.<br />
Darryl: Oh.<br />
Elaine: Yeah. So do you want to go to the Gap?<br />
Darryl: Sure.</p></blockquote>
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		<title>By: Hugo</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2006/02/02/hugos-white-boy-teaching-outfit/#comment-15165</link>
		<dc:creator>Hugo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 04 Feb 2006 16:30:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2006/02/02/hugos-white-boy-teaching-outfit/#comment-15165</guid>
		<description>Anthony, thank you -- that's very kind.  Two quibbles -- I don't think my clothes are THAT tight.  And I don't teach 7B; you took my 1B!

Cheers, my fellow Golden Bear!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Anthony, thank you &#8212; that&#8217;s very kind.  Two quibbles &#8212; I don&#8217;t think my clothes are THAT tight.  And I don&#8217;t teach 7B; you took my 1B!</p>
<p>Cheers, my fellow Golden Bear!</p>
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