Comments on: A long post about liberal white men and apologies http://hugoschwyzer.net/2006/02/27/a-long-post-about-liberal-white-men-and-apologies/ Fri, 05 Dec 2008 13:27:34 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.3.3 By: Mike http://hugoschwyzer.net/2006/02/27/a-long-post-about-liberal-white-men-and-apologies/#comment-19787 Mike Fri, 07 Jul 2006 14:35:41 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2006/02/27/a-long-post-about-liberal-white-men-and-apologies/#comment-19787 I feel obliged to personally question feminism the way I would question any other supremacist movement. Say the same thing about Blacks and Arabs that many famous feminists would say about men, and they would call you a racist. Saying that all men, as a group, are responsible for getting rid of the evils of some men, and you might as well be saying to Arabs as a group, hey, “you people” are responsible for most terrorism, so clean it up! How condescending. The myth of male privilege is a persuasive one. I don’t make much money, and most of my friends don’t, so what economic privilege do you want me to give up? I will not apologize for men being most of the CEO’s. I don’t benefit from them, and they wouldn’t help me out anyway!Most of the homeless people are men too! Men on average die seven years earlier than women. They are the one that die in wars, outnumbering the men (and women) politicians that send them to war in the first place. Without the inventions of white men that existed, like governments, houses, cars, etc., All of us would be living in a cave with a life expectancy of 40, like some people might do in the third world. Think about that, as you all, like me, spend time in your cushy upper-middle class houses with air-conditioning, and cars, and cushy jobs, or whatever you think you earned! If you understand that we stole land from the Native American tribes, feel free to give it back, and move to another country, and live off the land. Stop being a total hypocrite, liberals. Try telling the low-income soldier man that was drafted to Vietnam to get shot, that he was unfairly privileged because of his gender. Try telling the Native American man that was thrown off his land that he was unfairly privileged, also. Try telling the black men that he had unfair privilege when he was a slave. End the “testoserone” stereotypes. Don’t worry: if the male population falls from 49 or 48 percent to 35 percent and contains more homeless and suicide-ridden men, you can still blame the “evil patriachy”, which had actually favored women over men. I have met good patriarchal men who have supported their wives and children, as firemen, at risk to themselves, compared to the stereotypes on some websites. Anyway, favoring freeloaders, and biting the hand that feeds us, seems to be a “bleeding heart” tradition. If women won’t apologize about their gender abusing children and elderly at a higher rate than men, and i’m not saying they should, I will not apologize on behalf of the sins of my goddamn gender and race, which I’m damn proud of. You “politically correct” nuts who want to instill guilt in me should look elsewhere. If you believe this feminist movement is about “equality”, then I got some oceanfront property in Wyoming I wish to sell you. You can ignore this post and say it’s a “troll”, or you might try to refute historical facts I mentioned on this post or the other websites I’ve been on. Lets see what guts you have. You just might learn s0mething. I feel obliged to personally question feminism the way I would question any other supremacist movement. Say the same thing about Blacks and Arabs that many famous feminists would say about men, and they would call you a racist. Saying that all men, as a group, are responsible for getting rid of the evils of some men, and you might as well be saying to Arabs as a group, hey, “you people” are responsible for most terrorism, so clean it up! How condescending. The myth of male privilege is a persuasive one. I don’t make much money, and most of my friends don’t, so what economic privilege do you want me to give up? I will not apologize for men being most of the CEO’s. I don’t benefit from them, and they wouldn’t help me out anyway!Most of the homeless people are men too! Men on average die seven years earlier than women. They are the one that die in wars, outnumbering the men (and women) politicians that send them to war in the first place. Without the inventions of white men that existed, like governments, houses, cars, etc., All of us would be living in a cave with a life expectancy of 40, like some people might do in the third world. Think about that, as you all, like me, spend time in your cushy upper-middle class houses with air-conditioning, and cars, and cushy jobs, or whatever you think you earned! If you understand that we stole land from the Native American tribes, feel free to give it back, and move to another country, and live off the land. Stop being a total hypocrite, liberals.
Try telling the low-income soldier man that was drafted to Vietnam to get shot, that he was unfairly privileged because of his gender. Try telling the Native American man that was thrown off his land that he was unfairly privileged, also. Try telling the black men that he had unfair privilege when he was a slave. End the “testoserone” stereotypes. Don’t worry: if the male population falls from 49 or 48 percent to 35 percent and contains more homeless and suicide-ridden men, you can still blame the “evil patriachy”, which had actually favored women over men. I have met good patriarchal men who have supported their wives and children, as firemen, at risk to themselves, compared to the stereotypes on some websites. Anyway, favoring freeloaders, and biting the hand that feeds us, seems to be a “bleeding heart” tradition. If women won’t apologize about their gender abusing children and elderly at a higher rate than men, and i’m not saying they should, I will not apologize on behalf of the sins of my goddamn gender and race, which I’m damn proud of. You “politically correct” nuts who want to instill guilt in me should look elsewhere. If you believe this feminist movement is about “equality”, then I got some oceanfront property in Wyoming I wish to sell you. You can ignore this post and say it’s a “troll”, or you might try to refute historical facts I mentioned on this post or the other websites I’ve been on. Lets see what guts you have. You just might learn s0mething.

]]> By: alexander http://hugoschwyzer.net/2006/02/27/a-long-post-about-liberal-white-men-and-apologies/#comment-19786 alexander Thu, 02 Mar 2006 17:45:03 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2006/02/27/a-long-post-about-liberal-white-men-and-apologies/#comment-19786 Historically, when women have had power, and then use this power as a platform from which they can not be silenced, they inevitably sound like men in power. Look at Cleopatra, Zenobia, Eleanor of Acquitaine, Lucretia Borgia, Maria Taresa, Catherine the Great, Queen Victory, Golda Meir, Margaret Thatcher, etc, etc. Obviously, the interests of people who have power are not the interests of those who are ruled, male or female. But, I am still interested in hearing what women would have to say that is unique. And in determining if by "women" you mean "feminist women" or are inclusive of non-feminist women. For example, were women's voices to not be silenced, would women say things like "All sex is rape" or "Women never lie about rape"? Historically, when women have had power, and then use this power as a platform from which they can not be silenced, they inevitably sound like men in power. Look at Cleopatra, Zenobia, Eleanor of Acquitaine, Lucretia Borgia, Maria Taresa, Catherine the Great, Queen Victory, Golda Meir, Margaret Thatcher, etc, etc. Obviously, the interests of people who have power are not the interests of those who are ruled, male or female.

But, I am still interested in hearing what women would have to say that is unique.

And in determining if by “women” you mean “feminist women” or are inclusive of non-feminist women.

For example, were women’s voices to not be silenced, would women say things like “All sex is rape” or “Women never lie about rape”?

]]> By: Mr. Bad http://hugoschwyzer.net/2006/02/27/a-long-post-about-liberal-white-men-and-apologies/#comment-19785 Mr. Bad Thu, 02 Mar 2006 16:41:07 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2006/02/27/a-long-post-about-liberal-white-men-and-apologies/#comment-19785 evil fizz said: <i>" Wait, *your* premise, Mr. Bad, is that women are vain, everyone knows it, and Freud is the speaker of all things true and wonderful? This hurts my head too much to further contribute to the thread drift..."</i> No evil fizz, I was quoting Freud (and Shakespeare) to point out that it is an historical fact that it is not (only) men who are, as the author said, 'always trying to turn the discussion back onto themselves' and that at the very least women do this too. Your sorry-assed attempt at a Strawman argument won't work. evil fizz said: ”

Wait, *your* premise, Mr. Bad, is that women are vain, everyone knows it, and Freud is the speaker of all things true and wonderful?

This hurts my head too much to further contribute to the thread drift…”

No evil fizz, I was quoting Freud (and Shakespeare) to point out that it is an historical fact that it is not (only) men who are, as the author said, ‘always trying to turn the discussion back onto themselves’ and that at the very least women do this too.

Your sorry-assed attempt at a Strawman argument won’t work.

]]> By: alexander http://hugoschwyzer.net/2006/02/27/a-long-post-about-liberal-white-men-and-apologies/#comment-19784 alexander Thu, 02 Mar 2006 06:19:17 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2006/02/27/a-long-post-about-liberal-white-men-and-apologies/#comment-19784 <i>Once again, the author starts from a false premise, so her observations and conclusions are similarly false.</i> True, alas. But I am interested, when the term "women's voices" is used, does this mean "feminist voices"? Are conservative women included? Once again, the author starts from a false premise, so her observations and conclusions are similarly false.

True, alas.

But I am interested, when the term “women’s voices” is used, does this mean “feminist voices”? Are conservative women included?

]]> By: evil_fizz http://hugoschwyzer.net/2006/02/27/a-long-post-about-liberal-white-men-and-apologies/#comment-19783 evil_fizz Thu, 02 Mar 2006 00:30:45 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2006/02/27/a-long-post-about-liberal-white-men-and-apologies/#comment-19783 Wait, *your* premise, Mr. Bad, is that women are vain, everyone knows it, and Freud is the speaker of all things true and wonderful? This hurts my head too much to further contribute to the thread drift... Wait, *your* premise, Mr. Bad, is that women are vain, everyone knows it, and Freud is the speaker of all things true and wonderful?

This hurts my head too much to further contribute to the thread drift…

]]> By: The Gonzman http://hugoschwyzer.net/2006/02/27/a-long-post-about-liberal-white-men-and-apologies/#comment-19782 The Gonzman Wed, 01 Mar 2006 22:32:24 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2006/02/27/a-long-post-about-liberal-white-men-and-apologies/#comment-19782 <i>I'm not an animal at all, thank you very much.</i> Then I suggest you retake your biology classes, or take them to begin with as the case may be. <i>And throw a man in solitary confinement, he won't do much better than a woman and you know it. Human beings are social by nature. ALL human beings. The particular interactions may differ from one individual to the next, but there is a very small minority of people who are truly happiest when they are isolated.</i> You can dismiss accuate generalizations with extremes all you like; slapping someone in an isolation unit and cutting off all human contact isn't what I was addressing, and you very well know it, and I've come to expect much better from you. I’m not an animal at all, thank you very much.

Then I suggest you retake your biology classes, or take them to begin with as the case may be.

And throw a man in solitary confinement, he won’t do much better than a woman and you know it. Human beings are social by nature. ALL human beings. The particular interactions may differ from one individual to the next, but there is a very small minority of people who are truly happiest when they are isolated.

You can dismiss accuate generalizations with extremes all you like; slapping someone in an isolation unit and cutting off all human contact isn’t what I was addressing, and you very well know it, and I’ve come to expect much better from you.

]]> By: Mr. Bad http://hugoschwyzer.net/2006/02/27/a-long-post-about-liberal-white-men-and-apologies/#comment-19781 Mr. Bad Wed, 01 Mar 2006 22:22:57 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2006/02/27/a-long-post-about-liberal-white-men-and-apologies/#comment-19781 alexander responded to this: <i>"This is symptomatic of a greater issue: the fact that men are trained to keep the focus on themselves."</i> By saying this: "This is an assertion. Who does this “training”? When does it happen? Is it part of boot camp in the military? Why don’t women then “train” themselves to do the same?" alexander, what the author wrote is a fine example of transference and projection on her part and thus in classic feminist form is patently false. It's been known for <b>millenia</b> that in general women are the ones who in many cases obssessively focus on themselves - I believe it was Shakespeare who said something along the lines of "vanity, thy name be woman," and Freud formalized it by noting that "women are self-absorbed and vain." Once again, the author starts from a false premise, so her observations and conclusions are similarly false. alexander responded to this: “This is symptomatic of a greater issue: the fact that men are trained to keep the focus on themselves.”

By saying this: “This is an assertion. Who does this “training”? When does it happen? Is it part of boot camp in the military? Why don’t women then “train” themselves to do the same?”

alexander, what the author wrote is a fine example of transference and projection on her part and thus in classic feminist form is patently false. It’s been known for millenia that in general women are the ones who in many cases obssessively focus on themselves - I believe it was Shakespeare who said something along the lines of “vanity, thy name be woman,” and Freud formalized it by noting that “women are self-absorbed and vain.” Once again, the author starts from a false premise, so her observations and conclusions are similarly false.

]]> By: alexander http://hugoschwyzer.net/2006/02/27/a-long-post-about-liberal-white-men-and-apologies/#comment-19780 alexander Wed, 01 Mar 2006 16:02:54 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2006/02/27/a-long-post-about-liberal-white-men-and-apologies/#comment-19780 <i>This is symptomatic of a greater issue: the fact that men are trained to keep the focus on themselves.</i> This is an assertion. Who does this “training”? When does it happen? Is it part of boot camp in the military? Why don’t women then “train” themselves to do the same? <i>If you are one of the handful of men I have met who actually treat women like people, though, this disclaimer won’t mean anything to you.</i> I fell for this one when I was younger. I did not open doors for women. I insisted that women I dated pay for their half. I told women that they ought to be drafted, like men. Guess how far that went? Not very! Women do not want to give up their privileges. The other night I was with a female friend at a Coffee Bean. She spouted the usual feminist line to me all evening. Later, she insisted I walk her to her car (in a lighted parking lot full of people) because she needed “protection” and it was the “gentlemanly” thing to do. Now, I could have told her “A woman needs a man as much as a fish needs a bicycle” but instead walked her to her car. When women start acting like “people” they will be treated like people. <i>I'll make one observation here - there is a fundamental lack of understanding of what "power" is among far too many women when they talk about the "powerlessness" of women, to wit - if I grant you power, it isn't yours.</i> This is so. Power is something you seize. Many feminists seem to assume men walk into, say, a corporate recruiting office and they are handed something called “power.” Doesn’t work that way. So we see this feminist obsession with having the government come in and giving women an “equal” share, but if you are relying on the state to solve your problems, you become a serf of the state. Of course, politicians are more than willing to have feminists as a client group as it enhances their own power. <i>Before women's bookstores existed (say, circa 1970) what percentage of books in mainstream bookstores addressed feminist concerns? </i> This true for many other politically oriented books. There’s one anarchist bookstore in San Francisco, and not a single one in Los Angeles. <i>If you don't agree that women's voices are systematically marginalized, trivialized, and drowned out in our culture (thus creating the need for ground rules to protect the spaces that are carved out for women's voices"—</i> What is it you would say were you not “drowned out”? Everyone knows the feminist party line. What is it that women would say that is not already being said? I really am interested here—what is it that I am missing? And when you say women’s voices, do you mean “feminist” voices? We have Anne Coulter, Laura Schlesinger, and Phyllis Schafly. How do you deal with conservative women? Should their voices be heard? Often, conservative women who try to speak on campuses are “drowned out” quite literally by leftwing hecklers. Remember Jeanne Kilpatrick? Since feminsts have supported censorship of pornography, it is very difficult to take them seriously when they demand their turn at the podium. This is symptomatic of a greater issue: the fact that men are trained to keep the focus on themselves.

This is an assertion. Who does this “training”? When does it happen? Is it part of boot camp in the military? Why don’t women then “train” themselves to do the same?

If you are one of the handful of men I have met who actually treat women like people, though, this disclaimer won’t mean anything to you.

I fell for this one when I was younger. I did not open doors for women. I insisted that women I dated pay for their half. I told women that they ought to be drafted, like men. Guess how far that went? Not very! Women do not want to give up their privileges.

The other night I was with a female friend at a Coffee Bean. She spouted the usual feminist line to me all evening. Later, she insisted I walk her to her car (in a lighted parking lot full of people) because she needed “protection” and it was the “gentlemanly” thing to do. Now, I could have told her “A woman needs a man as much as a fish needs a bicycle” but instead walked her to her car.

When women start acting like “people” they will be treated like people.

I’ll make one observation here - there is a fundamental lack of understanding of what “power” is among far too many women when they talk about the “powerlessness” of women, to wit - if I grant you power, it isn’t yours.

This is so. Power is something you seize. Many feminists seem to assume men walk into, say, a corporate recruiting office and they are handed something called “power.” Doesn’t work that way. So we see this feminist obsession with having the government come in and giving women an “equal” share, but if you are relying on the state to solve your problems, you become a serf of the state. Of course, politicians are more than willing to have feminists as a client group as it enhances their own power.

Before women’s bookstores existed (say, circa 1970) what percentage of books in mainstream bookstores addressed feminist concerns?

This true for many other politically oriented books. There’s one anarchist bookstore in San Francisco, and not a single one in Los Angeles.

If you don’t agree that women’s voices are systematically marginalized, trivialized, and drowned out in our culture (thus creating the need for ground rules to protect the spaces that are carved out for women’s voices”—

What is it you would say were you not “drowned out”? Everyone knows the feminist party line. What is it that women would say that is not already being said? I really am interested here—what is it that I am missing?

And when you say women’s voices, do you mean “feminist” voices? We have Anne Coulter, Laura Schlesinger, and Phyllis Schafly. How do you deal with conservative women? Should their voices be heard? Often, conservative women who try to speak on campuses are “drowned out” quite literally by leftwing hecklers. Remember Jeanne Kilpatrick? Since feminsts have supported censorship of pornography, it is very difficult to take them seriously when they demand their turn at the podium.

]]> By: alexander http://hugoschwyzer.net/2006/02/27/a-long-post-about-liberal-white-men-and-apologies/#comment-19779 alexander Wed, 01 Mar 2006 15:42:08 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2006/02/27/a-long-post-about-liberal-white-men-and-apologies/#comment-19779 <i>I don't believe that any of us, ever, ought to apologize for the actions of others. I've never apologized for all the lousy things men have done to women, or whites have done to blacks, or what-have-you. We don't overcome sexism by imposing collective guilt on any particular group. </i> Hugo, this is the most intelligent thing I have heard in a long time--anywhere. Comments like this is why I keep coming back to your site. Keep it up! I don’t believe that any of us, ever, ought to apologize for the actions of others. I’ve never apologized for all the lousy things men have done to women, or whites have done to blacks, or what-have-you. We don’t overcome sexism by imposing collective guilt on any particular group.

Hugo, this is the most intelligent thing I have heard in a long time–anywhere. Comments like this is why I keep coming back to your site. Keep it up!

]]> By: Mr. Bad http://hugoschwyzer.net/2006/02/27/a-long-post-about-liberal-white-men-and-apologies/#comment-19778 Mr. Bad Wed, 01 Mar 2006 13:18:50 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2006/02/27/a-long-post-about-liberal-white-men-and-apologies/#comment-19778 Arwen wrote: <i>"And Mr. Bad, I just don't get it. If you're tired of hearing ad nauseum about the stories of women, etc, why don't you read Maxim and not Hugo? I'm not saying don't participate: I find the things you say really help me clarify why I'm a feminist and are often quite illuminating. However, it seems to really, really make you mad."</i> Angry, nope - why are you trying to spin my particpation as angry? Sounds like a pejorative to me. I participate because the non-feminist male-friendly voice has been absent too long from discussions of "gender." I come here as an act of defiance to the status quo in order to change the dynamic. bmmg39 raises what is in my mind the key point, that being that the basic premise of the author's argument is false, therefore, everything that flows from it is also false. Female voices have <b>not</b> been excluded or suppressed, especially from discussion of sex, gender, discrimination, etc. If anything, men's voices have been suppressed and excluded except when it comes to feminist and/or pro-feminist male apologists. The fact that we're ignoring this key point speaks volumes. The double-standard vis-a-vis male-only vs. female-only spaces pointed out by others is also germane, and speaks volumes about the feminist movement's respect - or more accurately, lack thereof - for equality, or at the very least, equal rights. Arwen wrote: “And Mr. Bad, I just don’t get it. If you’re tired of hearing ad nauseum about the stories of women, etc, why don’t you read Maxim and not Hugo? I’m not saying don’t participate: I find the things you say really help me clarify why I’m a feminist and are often quite illuminating. However, it seems to really, really make you mad.”

Angry, nope - why are you trying to spin my particpation as angry? Sounds like a pejorative to me. I participate because the non-feminist male-friendly voice has been absent too long from discussions of “gender.” I come here as an act of defiance to the status quo in order to change the dynamic.

bmmg39 raises what is in my mind the key point, that being that the basic premise of the author’s argument is false, therefore, everything that flows from it is also false. Female voices have not been excluded or suppressed, especially from discussion of sex, gender, discrimination, etc. If anything, men’s voices have been suppressed and excluded except when it comes to feminist and/or pro-feminist male apologists. The fact that we’re ignoring this key point speaks volumes.

The double-standard vis-a-vis male-only vs. female-only spaces pointed out by others is also germane, and speaks volumes about the feminist movement’s respect - or more accurately, lack thereof - for equality, or at the very least, equal rights.

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