North Carolina beat Tennessee. Darn it all. My women’s bracket is now nearly wiped out; please, Lord, let Duke beat UConn.
A friend points me to the ultra-MRA lads at the Nice Guys Forum; they’re all very confused that I’ve started boxing. In their infinite spare time, they’ve devoted a thread to me. One of them writes:
All of that being said, I think I saw somewhere that Hugo was either considering practicing boxing or actually doing it. As someone who has sparred in contact fighting (including Thai boxing and grappling) I find it rather strange on his part. I though he criticized ‘traditional’ male activities like that . . . oh well.
Deal with it, fellas! Really, I’ve been loving the boxing, though I still have a long way to go in learning technique. My trainer Pepe has been amazing — in two months, he’s begun to transform my body and my skills. Increasingly, I’m comfortable about the idea of hitting another human being without intending to hurt them. If I think of boxing as "scoring points", I can imagine myself sparring with others without abrogating my commitment to non-violence.
When I hit the bag, or my trainer’s mitts, I’m not fantasizing about hurting people. I’m not venting or letting out anger. When I started all of this training, I worried that it might make me more aggressive, or at least encourage violent daydreams. (I’ve posted about this in an explanation of why I stay away from video games). Happily, boxing three mornings a week with Pep leaves me tired but peaceful. I feel more in tune with my body than I have in a long time, and I rejoice in that.
When I add up how much money my wife and I spend on things like Pilates sessions and gym memberships and private boxing lessons, it’s a considerable expense. (And I’m about to add yoga into the mix.) I go through a pair of running shoes every six to eight weeks. And yet, we don’t spend much on our cars. I don’t spend anything on alcohol, because I don’t drink and my wife has only a rare glass of wine. We don’t own a stereo system. I have no idea what a Blackberry really does, or what Bluetooth is. Our TV is adequate, but unimpressive. I have zero interest in spending much on entertainment, and realize that the amount of money I spend each week on working out is no more than some of my friends spend on going out. We all have our priorities, I suppose!
I’ve got some more thoughts on immigration coming tomorrow. And a long post about masturbation percolating in my head too, though that may wait a day or two. And one about the first woman priest I knew well. Sigh. And now I’ve got dinner to make and a chinchilla to entertain and a wife to embrace — and I’m getting up at 4:30 tomorrow morning to go hit things before the sun comes up.
Boy that’s just how I feel. Like boxing.
I do olympic-style taekwondo sparring regularly, and I don’t think of the practices or the matches as violent, though it’s possible to hurt or be hurt. From a training perspective, it’s an interesting skill to learn, and from a competitive perspective, the matches present fascinating puzzles, to score points without getting scored on.
One of the things I’m coming to grips with in my training is that there are some guys who are sparring with different goals than the rest of us: Where most of us are trying to learn the sport of olympic-style TKD, others are trying to practice their TKD kicks, full-contact. That goal-mismatch can cause injuries, because the rhythm of this kind of match is significantly different than a match where both players are concerned about points.
At first, when faced with one of these “kickers,” I’d just square off and kick back! But when I did that, I found when we switched partners and I was paired up again with a good player, my sparring was much, much worse. So now I am trying to keep my focus the same with either style of opponent, and develop the proper fakes & footworks against the “kickers” as well as the good players.
So my advice to you, as you get started sparring in your boxing, is to try to find a couple of partners with the same training goals as you, and spar with them for a while. Save the slugging it out for when you want to do it, not when a sparring partner wants to.
First off - what exactly are you doing with your running shoes? Mine are good for about 1000 miles, or more - are you doing that in 6-8 weeks?
Anyway, I also am a pacifist and though I don’t box, I do fence. I know that both are perhaps about “scoring points” but both are also potentially lethal sports. The last person to die in fencing was a result of a broken blade which continued through the mask, the eye and into the brain (they subsequently redesigned the masks), and the same rare occurances occur in boxing sparring as well (for instance boxing a person with Marfan’s Syndrome or a ruptured spleen). Compared to auto accidents or even swimming deaths these are minute. Still, for me, it is important to remember that I am not doing a “safe activity” but rather a “dangerous activity made safe” and respect the responsibility and control I must maintain to ensure it stays that way.
Anyway, Kudo’s to you for challenging yourself physically as well as mentally by taking up Boxing.
If I think of boxing as “scoring points”, I can imagine myself sparring with others without abrogating my commitment to non-violence.
I think of running around with hookers the same way, and that way I can imagine myself getting my freak on without abrogating my commitment to monogamy.
Dude. It’s a war sport. (And thus cool.) I don’t see any way to square the circle.
And a long post about masturbation percolating in my head too…
There’s our nominee for “Statement Least Likely To Inspire Regular Checking Back At Hugo’s Blog”. :P
Nah, Robert, I think you’re trying too hard to be glib. Boxing’s rules make the difference between the sport of boxing and the violence of fighting. You’re hooker analogy doesn’t address that difference.
Apologies for the incorrect use of “you’re” when I meant “your.” Things get ugly when rules aren’t followed….
Getting into fights is to boxing…
…as banging hookers is to flirting?
That’s not quite it, but I’m closer to it than Robert is.
they’re all very confused that I’ve started boxing.
Confused? Nah.
Laughing our asses off? You bet!
Hugo;
I participate in contact fighting in part, because I find that many martial art schools are lacking with a crucial factor: a resisting, counter-attacking opponent. I believe that a certain volume of ‘aliveness’ training is important because in a real self-defense situation, I don’t care about grading levels, points, or ‘gameness’ as much as surviving an encounter in one piece. Thai boxing and Brazilian Jiu Jutsu are sports inclined, but anyone who denies that they have practical implication (and I’m not saying you have specifically) hasn’t ever looked into them objectively.
Yes, I understand why someone might not want to go full-bore all the time. It isn’t always pleasant, but I’ve never suffered severe injuires, either. I’ve sparred with moderate contact several times, but not every session. As aggressive Muay Thai is (among other activities) rest and respite are vital, and I even go to massage therapy in addition to yoga to compliment my physical conditioning.
“If I think of boxing as “scoring points”, I can imagine myself sparring with others without abrogating my commitment to non-violence.” -Hugo
I don’t see this as the epitome of cognitive dissonance, but I still wonder what your long term motives are. Is it just fitness oriented or what?
C.
I want to know where “Boxing” is a masculine activity in the first place.
Tell that to all the girls I learned it with.
I highly recommend this gent: http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/ - for some plain - if sometimes overly verbose - speech on the differences between self-defense, sport, exercise, and fighting.
Much he says, I am sure, will be counted as heresy, but I can find little but to quibble with him about.
Indeed, Antigone — at the boxing gym we belong to, over half the serious clients are women. Including, as I have mentioned more than once, my wife.
My long-term motives for boxing are twofold: one is, of course, to introduce another activity into my fitness regimen. (Man, boxing does aesthetically pleasing things for one’s deltoids!) I’m also interested in mastering something new — I like new challenges, particularly challenges that go against my most basic instincts (like fear.)
I’d suggest your local SCA, Hugo. You’d be amazed what some time in armor, muscling about a sword and shield, will do for the old hand/eye and whole body.
Of course, I’d probably (Given your lanky structure and empahasis on endurance) recommend you take up polearm eventually, but you might find something you like better.
You’d be in the “Barony of Angels” and part of the “Canton of Canyons” in the Kingdom of Caid. http://www.sca-caid.org/canyons/
And given your love of History…
Elizabeth, I burn through my shoes pretty fast. They get me about 300-400 miles. Of course, I take road shoes up on to the trails and abuse them mercilessly. I hate wearing trail shoes, so I persist in taking fairly light-weight trainers through mud and rocks and streams. My body likes it that way, but the shoes give out pretty fast. Somewhere, I have a pair of Montrail off-road shoes I need to start wearing more often. They just feel so danged heavy.
Gonz, I had friends in SCA in college. (For readers, we’re talking about Society for Creative Anachronism, NOT Sexual Compulsives Anonymous, another fine organization that shares the same acronym.) I may be a medievalist, but I don’t like the dress-up stuff; it reminds me too much of Renaissance Faire (not my cup-of-tea). I don’t like role-playing in my recreational life, largely because I spend so much time doing it in the classroom.
Wow, that leaves a wierd image…
“Wow, that leaves a wierd image…”
As I intended! ;-)
Hugo, in addition to being raised a feminist, I was raised a boxing fan — the kind of fan that keeps a scorecard and knows the history. Because of your pacifism and your commitment to participate in the sport in a way that is consistent with that commitment, I suspect you’ll liek this story:
All-time great Willie Pep once won a round without landing a punch.
It’s a story that floats around among boxing fans like an urban legend, but it is a true story. Bert Sugar documented it. Pep told the media in advance of his July, 1945 matchup with Jackie Graves, a quality southpaw, that he would win the third round without landing a punch. Instead, he put on the sort of display of defensive genius that made Will o’ the Wisp famous. He left Graves flailing at air for three minutes, spinning him, feinting him and pulling him off balance. Pep never landed a punch in the third round, coasted to an easy decision, and on the scorecards at the end, he had won the third round.
And so you don’t have to take my word for it:
http://www.eastsideboxing.com/williepep.html
Correction: Pep did not win by decision. He mounted a sustained offense later, stopping Graves in the 8th.
Love it.
Heh. Though at one time it was argued that SCA stood for “Society of Consenting Adults.”
And now that I’ve raised THAT image… my work here is done for the night.
Correction: Pep did not win by decision. He mounted a sustained offense later, stopping Graves in the 8th.
As far as I’m concerned, this inconvenient little fact raises serious questions about the compatibility of pacifism and boxing. Your cited source reports:
“Pep knocked Graves down 9 times, ending the fight in the 8th round via TKO.”
That’s 9 knockdowns in 5 rounds, almost an average of two knockdowns per round. Willie Pep won the match beyond dispute, but he also gave Jackie Graves one hell of a beating along the way.
Have you ever been knocked down in a boxing match, Thomas? If you have, then multiply how it felt by 9 times and you’ll see the point I’m making. Pounding the hell out of an opponent like that doesn’t seem consistent with pacifism.
I know your earlier point was about the value of Willie Pep’s defensive skills, but I see an inconsistency here that I can’t reconcile.
Losing in front of your hometown…
You wish the ground…would open up and take you down.
And will time never pass, will time never pass for us?
Your weary wife is walking away;
Your nephew is true, and he thinks the world of you,
And I have to close my eyes…
Losing in front of your hometown…
The crowd calls your name…it loves you…all the same.
The sound, the smell, the spray…
You will take them all away…
And they’ll stay…’til the grave…
Your weary wife is walking away;
Your nephew is true, and he thinks the world of you,
And I have to close my eyes…
Losing…in your hometown…
Hell…is the bell…that will not…ring again.
You will return one day, because of all the things
That you see when your eyes close.
Your weary wife is walking away;
Your nephew is true — well, he thinks the world of you,
And I have to dry my eyes…
Morrissey, “Boxers”
TRH, I have been knocked down — in fact, I was once knocked down three times in three rounds by a left-handed light heavyweight. I have a lot of experience as a fan but limited ring experience. I’m primarily a fan, not a fighter.
I also have only a lukewarm interest in helping Hugo reconcile pacifism and boxing, because I’m not a pacifist. However, I do note that Pep and Graves were professionals — prizefighters — fighting a fifteen round match with no headgear. Amateurs fight short matches with headgear. Not only do these factors dramatically reduce the risk of injury, but they also reduce the number of knockdowns and knockouts among fairly evenly matched fighters, which in turn puts a premium on clean, scoring punches. Body punches are harder to see clearly, so amateurs throw far fewer; and a light punch scores as much as a heavy one, so amateurs have an incentive to privilege accuracy over power. Conventional wisdom is that many amateurs have to make significant alterations to their punch mechanics if they turn pro, turning their punches over to punch through the target and transfer the energy instead of impressing the judges by landing.
That said, I have seen professionals fight fights oriented almost entirely around scoring. Pernell Whitaker made a whole career of it.
BTW, TRH, your “multiply how that felt” comment seems to indicate that you’re unacquainted with the ring yourself. Getting knocked down is generally disorienting or frustrating, or both, but not painful. Body punches are painful, but body punch knockdowns are comparatively scarce– the highest profile ones (Virgil Hill by Roy Jones and De La Hoya by Hopkins) coming years apart.
TRH, I have been knocked down — in fact, I was once knocked down three times in three rounds by a left-handed light heavyweight. I have a lot of experience as a fan but limited ring experience. I’m primarily a fan, not a fighter.
Thanks, Thomas, for clarifying that. While I dismiss feminism as man-hating bullshit, I do admire you for getting in the ring. I’ve boxed as an amateur (I don’t know if your bouts were pro or amateur; I’m guessing amateur because you say you have limited ring experience).
Southpaws can be frustrating opponents. I have faced them.
I also have only a lukewarm interest in helping Hugo reconcile pacifism and boxing, because I’m not a pacifist.
I think Hugo is a “pacifist” when it’s convenient for him to be one. He seems to think nothing of being hostile to MRAs when it suits his purposes. Such “pacifism” is merely hypocrisy in sheep’s clothing.
However, I do note that Pep and Graves were professionals — prizefighters — fighting a fifteen round match with no headgear. Amateurs fight short matches with headgear. Not only do these factors dramatically reduce the risk of injury, but they also reduce the number of knockdowns and knockouts among fairly evenly matched fighters, which in turn puts a premium on clean, scoring punches. Body punches are harder to see clearly, so amateurs throw far fewer; and a light punch scores as much as a heavy one, so amateurs have an incentive to privilege accuracy over power. Conventional wisdom is that many amateurs have to make significant alterations to their punch mechanics if they turn pro, turning their punches over to punch through the target and transfer the energy instead of impressing the judges by landing.
That said, I have seen professionals fight fights oriented almost entirely around scoring. Pernell Whitaker made a whole career of it.
I agree with what you say about amateur boxing vs. professional boxing. However, I still find your example a bit strange, notwithstanding these differences.
Even so, as I have said, I think Hugo’s “pacifism” is phony, just like many of his other positions on various issues. Indeed, he’s a mere caricature of a man, trying to please so many factions that he ties himself up in knots.
BTW, TRH, your “multiply how that felt” comment seems to indicate that you’re unacquainted with the ring yourself.
Wrong. Your inference is faulty.
Getting knocked down is generally disorienting or frustrating, or both, but not painful.
In addition to being generally disorienting or frustrating, a punch hard enough to knock you down is going to hurt. You claim to have been knocked down three times in three times. If those were indeed knockdowns, rather than slips, you were no doubt in some serious trouble (that is, “out on your feet”) if you did not feel any pain.
You are letting your opponents down by not fighting with them. Running away implies guilt. It is best to stay and fight back!
TheRealHugo:
“I think Hugo is a “pacifist” when it’s convenient for him to be one. He seems to think nothing of being hostile to MRAs when it suits his purposes. Such “pacifism” is merely hypocrisy in sheep’s clothing.”
Are you aware what being a “pacifist” means? Because that statement implies otherwise.
Pacifist =/= passive-ist. Just because Hugo believes in non-violence doesn’t meant that he can’t have the whole range of human emotions, or be an impassioned social fighter.
I’m hostile to MRAs too, but I’d never hit one. Violence is not constructive, and is completely barbaic in an advanced society, and should only be returned if there is no other re-course.
damnation
off
TRH, that Hugo provides a forum at all for MRAs to interact with feminists is the product of his commitment to engagement even with people he finds loathsome. He lets you come to his blog and accuse him of being “a caricature of a man.” I’ve told Hugo point-blank that you MRAs are ruining his comment section. Some feminists castigate him for letting people like you comment. Yet he is unwavering in his insistence on giving antagonists like you the floor. If that’s not some species of pacifism, I don’t know what is. You, on the other hand, lack the class even to be gracious in your disagreement.
Can people please remember to check for closed tags?
Tags closed.
Mea culpa, I tried to fix it.
In addition to being generally disorienting or frustrating, a punch hard enough to knock you down is going to hurt.
Depends on where you get hit. A good shot to the nose just ain’t no fun.
“I think Hugo is a “pacifist” when it’s convenient for him to be one. He seems to think nothing of being hostile to MRAs when it suits his purposes. Such “pacifism” is merely hypocrisy in sheep’s clothing.”
Come to think of it, I don’t believe I’ve ever seen Hugo get really hostile here or anywhere else for that matter. Whether it was MRA’s or not. I just figured it was good meds.
I’m hostile to MRAs too, but I’d never hit one. Violence is not constructive, and is completely barbaic in an advanced society, and should only be returned if there is no other re-course.
Yup. That’s why God invented passive aggression. Just for the folks that think they are too civilized for the real stuff. It too can be frustrating and disorienting however..
Uzzah, I’m confused by your statement. Are you suggesting that violence is a better way to deal with our respective differences? Or are you suggesting that “talking through” altercations is actually some form of passive-aggressive manipulation?
What, exactly, are you being sarcastic about?
I was just watching your conversation here and wanted to comment on it, I am in the USAF training to be on the Boxing team, I am working very hard to accomplish this and my trainer is the Son of Jackie Graves, he is retired USAF and I see him in the gym three times a week, this is all his body will allow him to do considering his circumstances(bone problems) But talking with him and learning so much from him its clear that the fighters of today are nothing compared to the fighters in that time. Jackie Graves was one of the true greats in Proffesional Boxing, he did beat Pep in a non title bout and many consider him to be a nemesis of Pep’s. I just thought that I would throw that tidbit of info in there since I think Graves is being poorly portrait on this…
Graves never beat Pep in a bout…he was KOed in 8 in the one match they did have. However, the story that Pep won the 3 round without throwing a punch is highly disputed by an account of the fight, saying the round was hottly contested. Graves at one time had one of the highest KO% in boxing history; up there with Archie Moore.
Graves never beat Pep in a bout…he was KOed in 8 in the one match they did have. However, the story that Pep won the 3 round without throwing a punch is highly disputed by an account of the fight, saying the round was hottly contested. Graves at one time had one of the highest KO% in boxing history; up there with Archie Moore.
Well taking Danny Graves word for it(His son..my trainer) he said he beat Pep in a non title bout…. I’m taking his word for it though…
According to the record, Graves took a hell of a beating, but dropped Pep twice in the 6 round. He broke his left in the 2, perhaps accounting for his poor performance, and tried to get a rematch. Pep’s manager would do it if Graves gave him, Lou Viscusi, 1/2 of his contract, so it didn’t happen. Lucky for Graves, probably. Graves said he almost had a bout with Sandy Saddler. Lucky again for Graves!
Graves dropped Pep in a non title bout! Lucky for graves? The only reason Graves isn’t in the history books as “the” greatest Featherweight of all time is due to the fact he was an alcoholic. And “According to the record”???? Excuse me? The Record? According to the so called “record” Graves didnt even land a punch in the 3rd… this is a myth! Many First Hand witnesses denied this statement…
Graves the greatest ? Ya gotta be kiddin’ ! I was a real fan of his; saw him destroy Finnish Ellis Ask in 2 rounds, and get destroyed by Corky Gonzalez.[ He did a complete backwards summersault from a punch.] One of his opponents in 1946 told me some of his early “pre Pep’ fights were fixed,but not to fault Graves as a lot of new boxers are in fixes, unknown to them. Graves was a sensation around the Twin Cities ’till Glen Flanagan KOed him, then his brother Del did the same thing. He then was 3rd best in his own state and never regained his old high status. He was highly entertaining, but great, NO.
Adding to my above comment, Graves got up to #2 featherweight contender, Glen to #3, and Del to #2 or #3 in the lightweights, and I think he was rated in the welters. So these guys were not “chopped liver” by any means; top rated fighters all. Graves chin was fragile, as he was KOed about ten times out of his 13 losses in around 90 bouts. He had a great amatuer record, losing only 6 of 290 bouts and won the 1942 G.G. bantam title, only to lose the next year title to well known Tony Janiro.
Dick He was great, the only reason why his career went down towards the end was due to a reason that has plagued many boxers, Alcoholism… And yes he was one of the true “GREATS” compare his record to every other pro and your an idiot if you dont see it…
Josh baby, you’ve gone overboard on Graves when you call him “great”. Realize that I was a big fan of his; he was “big stuff” when I was a kid and revived boxing in the twin cities in the 40’s after the war. He was good and no pushover, but he always lost the “big one” and by KO at that. Too many KO losses to be great. Glen Flanagan said he discovered Graves was a sucker for a feint in their first bout [ that Graves won ] and used that to KO Graves 2 times after that. No doubt told his brother Del as Del also KOed him. Actually, he didn’t fight very many of the big names in his division, either. So who’s the idiot?
I would account his losses to the fact that he was rushed too fast… I mean fighting willy Pep at 19.. come on now… You dont think thats a little fast? Compare his record Dick to all the pro’s of recent decades…..