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	<title>Comments on: Some very long thoughts on fantasy and masturbation</title>
	<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2006/03/29/some-very-long-thoughts-on-fantasy-and-masturbation/</link>
	<description></description>
	<pubDate>Thu, 16 Oct 2008 20:11:54 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: SamSeaborn</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2006/03/29/some-very-long-thoughts-on-fantasy-and-masturbation/#comment-283976</link>
		<dc:creator>SamSeaborn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Mar 2008 04:13:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2006/03/29/some-very-long-thoughts-on-fantasy-and-masturbation/#comment-283976</guid>
		<description>Hugo - yeah. But, sorry, that's a little tautological here. I mean, c'mon, with that definition even Jack the Ripper could achieve "congruence". But if "congruence" is entirely relativist, it's an empty shell as a recommendation to anyone but you. Could you *fill* said congruence with meaning that incorporates what you feel, think, say, and would still not be entirely relativist/individualist?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hugo - yeah. But, sorry, that&#8217;s a little tautological here. I mean, c&#8217;mon, with that definition even Jack the Ripper could achieve &#8220;congruence&#8221;. But if &#8220;congruence&#8221; is entirely relativist, it&#8217;s an empty shell as a recommendation to anyone but you. Could you *fill* said congruence with meaning that incorporates what you feel, think, say, and would still not be entirely relativist/individualist?</p>
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		<title>By: Hugo Schwyzer</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2006/03/29/some-very-long-thoughts-on-fantasy-and-masturbation/#comment-283751</link>
		<dc:creator>Hugo Schwyzer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Mar 2008 23:04:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2006/03/29/some-very-long-thoughts-on-fantasy-and-masturbation/#comment-283751</guid>
		<description>Congruence:

What I think, what I feel, what I say, and what I do are all more or less the same thing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Congruence:</p>
<p>What I think, what I feel, what I say, and what I do are all more or less the same thing.</p>
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		<title>By: SamSeaborn</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2006/03/29/some-very-long-thoughts-on-fantasy-and-masturbation/#comment-283738</link>
		<dc:creator>SamSeaborn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Mar 2008 22:56:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2006/03/29/some-very-long-thoughts-on-fantasy-and-masturbation/#comment-283738</guid>
		<description>Hugo, thanks for replying. This is interesting -

&lt;blockquote&gt;"because I don’t have a “secret” life that is at odds with my public one."&lt;/blockquote&gt;

hmm, as I understood your use of "compartmentlisation" you weren't just referring to the the cognitive dissonance that can occur when it's hard to reconcile public values with private ones, but to the impossibility of having ONE complete entirely *open* sexuality that is a combination of several elements (ie, having a girlfriend and masturbating - see your post about the "girlfriend-porn talk").

&lt;blockquote&gt;"I have some control over how long I entertain thoughts or fantasies that aren’t congruent with my values."&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Absolutely, but if "congruence" or absence of cognitive dissonance is the key here, then "compartmentalisation" is only impossible in a situation lacking intellectual congruence - which, I would think you would agree - usually depends on individual morality.

&lt;blockquote&gt;This isn’t about shame, either.&lt;/blockquote&gt;
 
I haven't mentioned "shame" anywhere, I did not think so. Although I'm not entirely certain you always "liked" your sexuality in the way you possibly do now. You seem quite (I would say 'overly') critical of yourself and your (earlier) desires at times. If or whatever that may mean - I'm not a psychologist... 

&lt;blockquote&gt;I do this not because of any special virtue on my part but because of a real hunger for a kind of congruence that I think is possible and desirable.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Which is fair enough. I think a lot of what I think are logical inconsistencies in your writing stems not from the fact that I'm not accepting that multiple attributions of actions or thoughts are a given in the subject area, but from the fact that you have taken a deeply spiritual and individual concept you call "congruence" and generalize from this point, often without - I think - intersubjectively accessibly explaining your reasoning. It's the pitfall of standpoint epistemology - useful, helpful to you, inaccessible for other people.

Do you think you could define "congruence" as a general principle?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hugo, thanks for replying. This is interesting -</p>
<blockquote><p>&#8220;because I don’t have a “secret” life that is at odds with my public one.&#8221;</p></blockquote>
<p>hmm, as I understood your use of &#8220;compartmentlisation&#8221; you weren&#8217;t just referring to the the cognitive dissonance that can occur when it&#8217;s hard to reconcile public values with private ones, but to the impossibility of having ONE complete entirely *open* sexuality that is a combination of several elements (ie, having a girlfriend and masturbating - see your post about the &#8220;girlfriend-porn talk&#8221;).</p>
<blockquote><p>&#8220;I have some control over how long I entertain thoughts or fantasies that aren’t congruent with my values.&#8221;</p></blockquote>
<p>Absolutely, but if &#8220;congruence&#8221; or absence of cognitive dissonance is the key here, then &#8220;compartmentalisation&#8221; is only impossible in a situation lacking intellectual congruence - which, I would think you would agree - usually depends on individual morality.</p>
<blockquote><p>This isn’t about shame, either.</p></blockquote>
<p>I haven&#8217;t mentioned &#8220;shame&#8221; anywhere, I did not think so. Although I&#8217;m not entirely certain you always &#8220;liked&#8221; your sexuality in the way you possibly do now. You seem quite (I would say &#8216;overly&#8217;) critical of yourself and your (earlier) desires at times. If or whatever that may mean - I&#8217;m not a psychologist&#8230; </p>
<blockquote><p>I do this not because of any special virtue on my part but because of a real hunger for a kind of congruence that I think is possible and desirable.</p></blockquote>
<p>Which is fair enough. I think a lot of what I think are logical inconsistencies in your writing stems not from the fact that I&#8217;m not accepting that multiple attributions of actions or thoughts are a given in the subject area, but from the fact that you have taken a deeply spiritual and individual concept you call &#8220;congruence&#8221; and generalize from this point, often without - I think - intersubjectively accessibly explaining your reasoning. It&#8217;s the pitfall of standpoint epistemology - useful, helpful to you, inaccessible for other people.</p>
<p>Do you think you could define &#8220;congruence&#8221; as a general principle?</p>
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		<title>By: Hugo Schwyzer</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2006/03/29/some-very-long-thoughts-on-fantasy-and-masturbation/#comment-283428</link>
		<dc:creator>Hugo Schwyzer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Mar 2008 15:08:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2006/03/29/some-very-long-thoughts-on-fantasy-and-masturbation/#comment-283428</guid>
		<description>No, not quite, though I appreciate the careful reading of my words, Sam.  What I'm talking about here is the conscious decision to direct my sexuality in a very certain way -- towards my wife.  That's not repression or compartmentalization, because I don't have a "secret" life that is at odds with my public one.  And while, to paraphrase the Luther line, can't stop the birds from flying overhead, I can prevent them from building nests in my hair -- in other words, I have some control over how long I entertain thoughts or fantasies that aren't congruent with my values.

This isn't about shame, either.  I like my sexuality just fine, thanks.  The challenge of my adult life has been to make the most private parts of myself match my deepest convictions.  It's an ongoing work, and one way I do that work is by deliberately refraining from certain things (like fantasizing about other people or masturbating).  I do this not because of any special virtue on my part but because of a real hunger for a kind of congruence that I think is possible and desirable.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No, not quite, though I appreciate the careful reading of my words, Sam.  What I&#8217;m talking about here is the conscious decision to direct my sexuality in a very certain way &#8212; towards my wife.  That&#8217;s not repression or compartmentalization, because I don&#8217;t have a &#8220;secret&#8221; life that is at odds with my public one.  And while, to paraphrase the Luther line, can&#8217;t stop the birds from flying overhead, I can prevent them from building nests in my hair &#8212; in other words, I have some control over how long I entertain thoughts or fantasies that aren&#8217;t congruent with my values.</p>
<p>This isn&#8217;t about shame, either.  I like my sexuality just fine, thanks.  The challenge of my adult life has been to make the most private parts of myself match my deepest convictions.  It&#8217;s an ongoing work, and one way I do that work is by deliberately refraining from certain things (like fantasizing about other people or masturbating).  I do this not because of any special virtue on my part but because of a real hunger for a kind of congruence that I think is possible and desirable.</p>
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		<title>By: SamSeaborn</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2006/03/29/some-very-long-thoughts-on-fantasy-and-masturbation/#comment-283419</link>
		<dc:creator>SamSeaborn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Mar 2008 14:57:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2006/03/29/some-very-long-thoughts-on-fantasy-and-masturbation/#comment-283419</guid>
		<description>Hi Hugo,

interesting post - "The moral nature of thoughts..." 

What I'm wondering about is this -

&lt;blockquote&gt;In the end, I chose to let go of masturbation and sexual fantasy because they were at odds with my vision of what it meant to live a life of servanthood and discipleship.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

and how it relates to your apparently very strict views on the impossibility of "compartmentalization". The latter, it appears to me, cannot be seen as a one way street. You seem to see it as impossible to make conscious decisions about how to control and combine different parts of ones sexuality, yet you're claiming that you *can* let go of sexual fantasies, which, as you're certainly aware, are often not a product of the conscious mind. If you can actually do this, you are "reverse" "compartmentalizing" your sexuality.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Hugo,</p>
<p>interesting post - &#8220;The moral nature of thoughts&#8230;&#8221; </p>
<p>What I&#8217;m wondering about is this -</p>
<blockquote><p>In the end, I chose to let go of masturbation and sexual fantasy because they were at odds with my vision of what it meant to live a life of servanthood and discipleship.</p></blockquote>
<p>and how it relates to your apparently very strict views on the impossibility of &#8220;compartmentalization&#8221;. The latter, it appears to me, cannot be seen as a one way street. You seem to see it as impossible to make conscious decisions about how to control and combine different parts of ones sexuality, yet you&#8217;re claiming that you *can* let go of sexual fantasies, which, as you&#8217;re certainly aware, are often not a product of the conscious mind. If you can actually do this, you are &#8220;reverse&#8221; &#8220;compartmentalizing&#8221; your sexuality.</p>
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		<title>By: Bruce Ramsey</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2006/03/29/some-very-long-thoughts-on-fantasy-and-masturbation/#comment-66819</link>
		<dc:creator>Bruce Ramsey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 09 Jun 2007 16:29:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2006/03/29/some-very-long-thoughts-on-fantasy-and-masturbation/#comment-66819</guid>
		<description>I've discovered that, as a male,  the best sex is no sex.  That way, when you have a "wet dream", you KNOW what you like, since the dream came from the subconscious.  Of course, if I was married, I'd kiss "wet dreams' good-bye for the wife's sake.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve discovered that, as a male,  the best sex is no sex.  That way, when you have a &#8220;wet dream&#8221;, you KNOW what you like, since the dream came from the subconscious.  Of course, if I was married, I&#8217;d kiss &#8220;wet dreams&#8217; good-bye for the wife&#8217;s sake.</p>
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		<title>By: LukeB</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2006/03/29/some-very-long-thoughts-on-fantasy-and-masturbation/#comment-20550</link>
		<dc:creator>LukeB</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Apr 2006 16:50:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2006/03/29/some-very-long-thoughts-on-fantasy-and-masturbation/#comment-20550</guid>
		<description>Whoa, how did you infer that my comment applied to me specifically? I've read enough of Dan Savage's advice column to know that not all marriages have libidos that are anywhere near each other.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Whoa, how did you infer that my comment applied to me specifically? I&#8217;ve read enough of Dan Savage&#8217;s advice column to know that not all marriages have libidos that are anywhere near each other.</p>
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		<title>By: mythago</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2006/03/29/some-very-long-thoughts-on-fantasy-and-masturbation/#comment-20549</link>
		<dc:creator>mythago</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Apr 2006 12:08:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2006/03/29/some-very-long-thoughts-on-fantasy-and-masturbation/#comment-20549</guid>
		<description>Luke, I highly recommend you read the blog series &lt;a href="http://blogs.salon.com/0003935/stories/2004/09/07/storyList.html" rel="nofollow"&gt;Why Your Wife Won't Have Sex With You&lt;/a&gt;. It's not about blaming or telling you to suck it up; it's about ways to think about the problem and find solutions that are within your control.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Luke, I highly recommend you read the blog series <a href="http://blogs.salon.com/0003935/stories/2004/09/07/storyList.html" rel="nofollow">Why Your Wife Won&#8217;t Have Sex With You</a>. It&#8217;s not about blaming or telling you to suck it up; it&#8217;s about ways to think about the problem and find solutions that are within your control.</p>
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		<title>By: Lynn Gazis-Sax</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2006/03/29/some-very-long-thoughts-on-fantasy-and-masturbation/#comment-20548</link>
		<dc:creator>Lynn Gazis-Sax</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Apr 2006 03:10:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2006/03/29/some-very-long-thoughts-on-fantasy-and-masturbation/#comment-20548</guid>
		<description>Personally, if I'm being plagued by sexual thoughts I want to distract myself from, I trade lust for gluttony, and go eat something yummy instead.  Sometimes it works.  Maybe cold showers work better, but I'm too much of a hedonist - I go for good food.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Personally, if I&#8217;m being plagued by sexual thoughts I want to distract myself from, I trade lust for gluttony, and go eat something yummy instead.  Sometimes it works.  Maybe cold showers work better, but I&#8217;m too much of a hedonist - I go for good food.</p>
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		<title>By: Countee</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2006/03/29/some-very-long-thoughts-on-fantasy-and-masturbation/#comment-20547</link>
		<dc:creator>Countee</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Apr 2006 00:29:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2006/03/29/some-very-long-thoughts-on-fantasy-and-masturbation/#comment-20547</guid>
		<description>I completely believe you, Hugo, but I would like to know more about how you resist temptation in this area?  What do you tell yourself to stop from fantasizing?  I really want to know!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I completely believe you, Hugo, but I would like to know more about how you resist temptation in this area?  What do you tell yourself to stop from fantasizing?  I really want to know!</p>
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