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	<title>Comments on: Thinking about revival, ambivalence, and the Holy Both</title>
	<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2006/04/06/thinking-about-revival-ambivalence-and-the-holy-both/</link>
	<description></description>
	<pubDate>Mon, 01 Dec 2008 21:15:33 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Anonymous Coward</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2006/04/06/thinking-about-revival-ambivalence-and-the-holy-both/#comment-20779</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous Coward</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Apr 2006 23:47:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2006/04/06/thinking-about-revival-ambivalence-and-the-holy-both/#comment-20779</guid>
		<description>Hugo: "Though I cannot prove it, I am convinced that the prayers of others have healed me and protected me time and again."

You may not be able to prove it, but is it something that you believe could ultimately be proved, by someone, somewhere, at least in theory? Do you believe that prayer has an observable effect on the universe? (Besides any obvious effect on the person praying, or any other people who observe them doing so).

Or is this conviction something that you hold but admit to be irrational? (Certainly many of us have beliefs about causality and our place in the universe that we know don't stand up to scrutiny, but we stick with them anyway because we like them, they make us feel better or they help life run more smoothly).

Because it seems to me that this is a fundamental question: either your religion is internal, much like your views on exercise, feminism, social justice, etc. or your religion is external, much like your views on gravity, biology, or the heliocentric universe.

The way you switch from sect to sect would seem to imply that your religion is internal, much as your taste in movies, and you're looking for something that works for you and improves your life. (This also matches the way you recommend different sects to students who come to you for guidance, if I recall correctly, attempting to match them with a group that will be compatible with their temperament and/or upbringing).

And yet you believe in the power of prayer having an effect on the universe: where did this belief come from? Not all Christians share this belief, many see prayer as something more akin to meditation and contemplation, with internal relevance but no external effect.

In asking this I believe I can see that your response will be that the question is not relevant, and we should feel more and think less. And yet, in your day job you are teaching analytical skills to students and pushing them to question their assumptions, prejudices and conventional wisdom as relating to gender roles, body image, the history of feminism and so on.

Do you keep your faith because it would hurt too much to give it up?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hugo: &#8220;Though I cannot prove it, I am convinced that the prayers of others have healed me and protected me time and again.&#8221;</p>
<p>You may not be able to prove it, but is it something that you believe could ultimately be proved, by someone, somewhere, at least in theory? Do you believe that prayer has an observable effect on the universe? (Besides any obvious effect on the person praying, or any other people who observe them doing so).</p>
<p>Or is this conviction something that you hold but admit to be irrational? (Certainly many of us have beliefs about causality and our place in the universe that we know don&#8217;t stand up to scrutiny, but we stick with them anyway because we like them, they make us feel better or they help life run more smoothly).</p>
<p>Because it seems to me that this is a fundamental question: either your religion is internal, much like your views on exercise, feminism, social justice, etc. or your religion is external, much like your views on gravity, biology, or the heliocentric universe.</p>
<p>The way you switch from sect to sect would seem to imply that your religion is internal, much as your taste in movies, and you&#8217;re looking for something that works for you and improves your life. (This also matches the way you recommend different sects to students who come to you for guidance, if I recall correctly, attempting to match them with a group that will be compatible with their temperament and/or upbringing).</p>
<p>And yet you believe in the power of prayer having an effect on the universe: where did this belief come from? Not all Christians share this belief, many see prayer as something more akin to meditation and contemplation, with internal relevance but no external effect.</p>
<p>In asking this I believe I can see that your response will be that the question is not relevant, and we should feel more and think less. And yet, in your day job you are teaching analytical skills to students and pushing them to question their assumptions, prejudices and conventional wisdom as relating to gender roles, body image, the history of feminism and so on.</p>
<p>Do you keep your faith because it would hurt too much to give it up?</p>
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		<title>By: Hugo</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2006/04/06/thinking-about-revival-ambivalence-and-the-holy-both/#comment-20778</link>
		<dc:creator>Hugo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Apr 2006 11:38:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2006/04/06/thinking-about-revival-ambivalence-and-the-holy-both/#comment-20778</guid>
		<description>Oh, I do believe very much in the power of prayer.  Though I cannot prove it, I am convinced that the prayers of others have healed me and protected me time and again.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh, I do believe very much in the power of prayer.  Though I cannot prove it, I am convinced that the prayers of others have healed me and protected me time and again.</p>
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		<title>By: mythago</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2006/04/06/thinking-about-revival-ambivalence-and-the-holy-both/#comment-20777</link>
		<dc:creator>mythago</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Apr 2006 02:52:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2006/04/06/thinking-about-revival-ambivalence-and-the-holy-both/#comment-20777</guid>
		<description>AC, I don't think Hugo literally meant that they could force a miracle, but was referring to the fervency and faith of that kind of prayer.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>AC, I don&#8217;t think Hugo literally meant that they could force a miracle, but was referring to the fervency and faith of that kind of prayer.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous Coward</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2006/04/06/thinking-about-revival-ambivalence-and-the-holy-both/#comment-20776</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous Coward</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Apr 2006 02:04:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2006/04/06/thinking-about-revival-ambivalence-and-the-holy-both/#comment-20776</guid>
		<description>Hugo: "I love worshipping with folks who believe that Jesus is right here, right now, in this space, and in the next few minutes if we all pray real hard, we're going to have a miracle!"

I'm curious about how you resolve this feeling with your sense of rationality.

Do you participate in this kind of worship because it feels good and re-energises you, without really believing in the prospect of miracles? (I see this approach as being similar to tourists in Japan participating in Shinto ceremonies, or people studying Yoga or meditation for health reasons or stress relief, without necessarily committing to Hindu/Buddhist beliefs or ideology).

Or do you truly believe that you could in fact change the universe if you prayed hard enough? That mystic visions do come from external sources, not internal? When you pray for a sick person (to choose a topical example) do you expect your prayers to materially affect their condition, or are they more for your own benefit?

Do you think that the universe is answerable to human thought? Or is your religion a tool for self-improvement and source of good feelings, as much as your fervour for running, pilates and feminism?

(Apologies in advance if this is an old or irrelevant topic for this blog).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hugo: &#8220;I love worshipping with folks who believe that Jesus is right here, right now, in this space, and in the next few minutes if we all pray real hard, we&#8217;re going to have a miracle!&#8221;</p>
<p>I&#8217;m curious about how you resolve this feeling with your sense of rationality.</p>
<p>Do you participate in this kind of worship because it feels good and re-energises you, without really believing in the prospect of miracles? (I see this approach as being similar to tourists in Japan participating in Shinto ceremonies, or people studying Yoga or meditation for health reasons or stress relief, without necessarily committing to Hindu/Buddhist beliefs or ideology).</p>
<p>Or do you truly believe that you could in fact change the universe if you prayed hard enough? That mystic visions do come from external sources, not internal? When you pray for a sick person (to choose a topical example) do you expect your prayers to materially affect their condition, or are they more for your own benefit?</p>
<p>Do you think that the universe is answerable to human thought? Or is your religion a tool for self-improvement and source of good feelings, as much as your fervour for running, pilates and feminism?</p>
<p>(Apologies in advance if this is an old or irrelevant topic for this blog).</p>
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		<title>By: The Happy Feminist</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2006/04/06/thinking-about-revival-ambivalence-and-the-holy-both/#comment-20780</link>
		<dc:creator>The Happy Feminist</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 08 Apr 2006 19:29:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2006/04/06/thinking-about-revival-ambivalence-and-the-holy-both/#comment-20780</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;FEMINISTS AND CONSERVATIVE CHRISTIANS MISUNDERSTAND ONE ANOTHER&lt;/strong&gt;

Hugo Schwyzer has written a terrific post touching upon his calling as a progressive pro-feminist for reaching out to my more conservative Christian brothers and sisters and for reaching out with the Gospel to feminists. He expresses frustration at these
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>FEMINISTS AND CONSERVATIVE CHRISTIANS MISUNDERSTAND ONE ANOTHER</strong></p>
<p>Hugo Schwyzer has written a terrific post touching upon his calling as a progressive pro-feminist for reaching out to my more conservative Christian brothers and sisters and for reaching out with the Gospel to feminists. He expresses frustration at these</p>
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		<title>By: Hugo</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2006/04/06/thinking-about-revival-ambivalence-and-the-holy-both/#comment-20775</link>
		<dc:creator>Hugo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Apr 2006 11:30:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2006/04/06/thinking-about-revival-ambivalence-and-the-holy-both/#comment-20775</guid>
		<description>Well, the Episcopalians are definitely lime sorbet.  The Mennonites are some sort of soy product (Tofutti?), and my Pentecostal friends are Chunky Monkey.  Rachel, thanks for the link -- fascinating guy; Kristie, thanks for the story!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, the Episcopalians are definitely lime sorbet.  The Mennonites are some sort of soy product (Tofutti?), and my Pentecostal friends are Chunky Monkey.  Rachel, thanks for the link &#8212; fascinating guy; Kristie, thanks for the story!</p>
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		<title>By: Rachel</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2006/04/06/thinking-about-revival-ambivalence-and-the-holy-both/#comment-20774</link>
		<dc:creator>Rachel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Apr 2006 09:40:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2006/04/06/thinking-about-revival-ambivalence-and-the-holy-both/#comment-20774</guid>
		<description>Hugo, I like your point about the nuanced differences between types of feminists or types of evangelicals (and how neither group quite sees those nuances when looking at the other).

Given what you say about Episcopalian politics and evangelical fervor, you might enjoy the story of Bishop Carlton Pearson. I blogged about him &lt;a href="http://velveteenrabbi.blogs.com/blog/2006/02/carlton_pearson.html" rel="nofollow"&gt;here&lt;/a&gt;; I recommend listening to the one-hour broadcast of "This American Life" which featured his story (linked in my post.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hugo, I like your point about the nuanced differences between types of feminists or types of evangelicals (and how neither group quite sees those nuances when looking at the other).</p>
<p>Given what you say about Episcopalian politics and evangelical fervor, you might enjoy the story of Bishop Carlton Pearson. I blogged about him <a href="http://velveteenrabbi.blogs.com/blog/2006/02/carlton_pearson.html" rel="nofollow">here</a>; I recommend listening to the one-hour broadcast of &#8220;This American Life&#8221; which featured his story (linked in my post.)</p>
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		<title>By: Kristie Vosper</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2006/04/06/thinking-about-revival-ambivalence-and-the-holy-both/#comment-20773</link>
		<dc:creator>Kristie Vosper</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Apr 2006 03:56:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2006/04/06/thinking-about-revival-ambivalence-and-the-holy-both/#comment-20773</guid>
		<description>I meant "assigning" not "defining".</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I meant &#8220;assigning&#8221; not &#8220;defining&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: Kristie Vosper</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2006/04/06/thinking-about-revival-ambivalence-and-the-holy-both/#comment-20772</link>
		<dc:creator>Kristie Vosper</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Apr 2006 03:55:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2006/04/06/thinking-about-revival-ambivalence-and-the-holy-both/#comment-20772</guid>
		<description>Should we start defining flavors to denominations?  That might be fun...and an easier identification that all the big church names. :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Should we start defining flavors to denominations?  That might be fun&#8230;and an easier identification that all the big church names. :)</p>
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		<title>By: Kristie Vosper</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2006/04/06/thinking-about-revival-ambivalence-and-the-holy-both/#comment-20771</link>
		<dc:creator>Kristie Vosper</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Apr 2006 02:49:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2006/04/06/thinking-about-revival-ambivalence-and-the-holy-both/#comment-20771</guid>
		<description>In so many ways christians are about 100 different flavors of the same ice cream.  I'll take my first scoop of presbyterians, add a little pentacostal on the side, a evangelical free when I'm tired of the presbyterians for a day or two...and then I'll take an Anglican service when I need to quiet my soul.  It's all so good...I love pieces of all of the passion.  

We're so into accomodating everyone's needs, beliefs, and preferences that it has made us into a bunch of different sub-groups. I bet Jesus is a little frustrated with us, but totally aware that it's the state we're in and we're doing the best we can...our effort to worship Him hopefully supercedes any division we've made out of the church.  

Funny note/story: I had a woman call the office yesterday who had been attending the church I work at.  I said "gosh, I've missed you!" She said "yeah, well...we're not going to come anymore. The pastor talks too much about Jesus and I'm looking for a church that will accomodate my atheist husband...so that he feels comfortable.  I think we're gonna head back to the Episcopal church."  ;) Thought you'd get a kick out of that Hugo. "People!" (add in a sigh and roll of my eyes).  As my mom always says "takes all kinds to make the world".</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In so many ways christians are about 100 different flavors of the same ice cream.  I&#8217;ll take my first scoop of presbyterians, add a little pentacostal on the side, a evangelical free when I&#8217;m tired of the presbyterians for a day or two&#8230;and then I&#8217;ll take an Anglican service when I need to quiet my soul.  It&#8217;s all so good&#8230;I love pieces of all of the passion.  </p>
<p>We&#8217;re so into accomodating everyone&#8217;s needs, beliefs, and preferences that it has made us into a bunch of different sub-groups. I bet Jesus is a little frustrated with us, but totally aware that it&#8217;s the state we&#8217;re in and we&#8217;re doing the best we can&#8230;our effort to worship Him hopefully supercedes any division we&#8217;ve made out of the church.  </p>
<p>Funny note/story: I had a woman call the office yesterday who had been attending the church I work at.  I said &#8220;gosh, I&#8217;ve missed you!&#8221; She said &#8220;yeah, well&#8230;we&#8217;re not going to come anymore. The pastor talks too much about Jesus and I&#8217;m looking for a church that will accomodate my atheist husband&#8230;so that he feels comfortable.  I think we&#8217;re gonna head back to the Episcopal church.&#8221;  ;) Thought you&#8217;d get a kick out of that Hugo. &#8220;People!&#8221; (add in a sigh and roll of my eyes).  As my mom always says &#8220;takes all kinds to make the world&#8221;.</p>
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