…unless you don’t consider sex to be at all important, as I do not.

I define “celibacy” very strictly, as in “the state of being unmarried.” The state of not having sex is “chastity.” (For the record, I practice both.) Quite frankly, being my age without dating/socialization experience is far more painful than not having gotten my groove on…

As far as I can tell, this false doctrine of ‘alpha men are strong deciders, beta men are their weak little bitches!’ is propegated soley to sell nonsense ‘player’ books to insecure men. It’s ironic that someone so passionately devoted to men’s welfare would embrace a paradigm that causes so much misery for men.

It doesn’t matter whether I embrace it or not - it is what it is. No matter how hard one tries to change basic dominance patterns, an alpha will chafe at being led by a beta, and will eventually try to take over, or leave and start anew. A beta will grow weary of the burdens of leadership and eventuially defer to an alpha.

Humans form heirarchies. It is the nature of the beast. Many try to buck human nature, and fail - pure democracies rarely last because the alphas resent running decisions by betas, and/or often feel betas aren’t doing their fair share (No, not him/her - won’t give an opinion when they’re asked, but when it’s time to COMPLAIN…) Betas become resentful at being asked to be leaders against their nature, or resent it when they notice that the alphas have taken over - and did so six months ago. Then things are running fine. And the alphas grow angry when the betas want to change something working perfectly fine, merely for the sake of change…

..and so on and so forth - we’ve seem the same sordid story. There’s a litany of common complaints, with a myraid of patterns of resentment and strife, paint your own picture.

Far better, I think, for people to decide what they want, and what they are happier at, and seek out situations that suit them, rather than trying to change someone who may very well not want to be changed to suit them. Or trying to convince someone who is perfectly content with their lot in life that they are really unhappy, and just don’t realize it yet.

What makes people miserable is not in their nature, but trying to act against that nature. A true beta is content as a follower and/or advisor. A true alpha unhappy under a stronger alpha, or a beta, should set out on their own.

Left alone, such things generally work themselves out.

Celibacy pushed me out of my comfort zone into some real growth. For others, taking the risk to be sexual might produce the same result.

Beta males just have to accept that girls will be outgoing and not always a barbie doll. If you think women who are talking to you are too forward, or if you think that they should look a certain way, then you are going to be disappointed.

Again, I never stated that. I said that most women don’t approach, not all. Also, I at no point indicated that I am only interested in a “barbie doll” (I don’t even know what that’s supposed to mean, though I assume it to be “superficially pretty but vapid”). Back to the topic at hand…

I find it interesting that you talk of celibacy as spirtual. Honestly, I find it disconnecting: one of my minor regrets in life was that I didn’t have sex in high school, because I was busy pretending to be Christian and I didn’t want to be called a slut. I regret it because honestly, the most spirtual I ever feel is in the midst of sex and the afterglow. Celibacy, to me, is about cutting yourself off from the divine, not embracing it. Sex, flirting, what have you, isn’t about validation of self, it’s a celebration of connections.

Well, different strokes for different folks. I knew people in my college years, men and women, and I am in no way implying that I think Hugo is similar, who would have sex at the drop of a hat with pretty much anyone they found even remotely attractive. This was not because they enjoyed some kind of spiritual communion through the sexual act, but rather because it filled some void in them. They were depressed, lonely or just not feeling right with the universe, so they would bed someone just to feel some sort of momentary pleasure and affirmation. That was sex as a compulsion, not as a communion.

For those people, stepping back and taking scope of their views on sex, particularly in a religious context, could have not only been a spiritual experience but a much-needed form of therapy as well. I agree that for those who haven’t experienced much or any sex at all celibacy might not be quite so “spiritual” or life-affirming, if you’re not the religious type.

I prefer the “beta” males. Glitch mentioned that females don’t approach shy girls, and that’s just not true. For instance, my current boyfriend didn’t have enough courage to approach me at a party: so I walked up to him, sat down next to him, and said “Hi, I’m Antigone. You want to talk to me”.

Beta males just have to accept that girls will be outgoing and not always a barbie doll. If you think women who are talking to you are too forward, or if you think that they should look a certain way, then you are going to be disappointed.

Back to the topic at hand:

I find it interesting that you talk of celibacy as spirtual. Honestly, I find it disconnecting: one of my minor regrets in life was that I didn’t have sex in high school, because I was busy pretending to be Christian and I didn’t want to be called a slut. I regret it because honestly, the most spirtual I ever feel is in the midst of sex and the afterglow. Celibacy, to me, is about cutting yourself off from the divine, not embracing it. Sex, flirting, what have you, isn’t about validation of self, it’s a celebration of connections.

Random Lurker: Well, I did include the qualifier “most” in my statement, so no, I didn’t claim “all” women ignore beta males. Yes, I have met a few women who did take the first step, sadly, things just didn’t work out with them (all two of ‘em) in the long run. I don’t chase “barbie dolls,” in fact I don’t chase at all. I don’t really have an “ideal type” of woman in mind, though I would prefer someone rather like me.

Hey, my dad is an alpha of alphas. I *know* alpha guys. Hell- I’m an alpha girl, I’m just like my dad.

‘Alpha’ is just shorthand for a clutch of personality traits- extroversion, aggressiveness, confrontational personality, etc. But not all decisive, confident, self-possessed people are ‘alpha’. You don’t have to be a confrontational extrovert to have these positive traits. And this is coming from a geniune confrontational pushy extrovert.

Alphas know who the lesser mortals are, and are not particularly concerned with their opinion. They do as they will, and if they fail, they get up and dust themselves off instead of wallowing in self-pity. Many instances abound where the alpha is physically feeble compared to the betas that do his bidding.

Ah, now the attitude that some people are just flat out superior to others, and those others should be their servants, is VERY ‘alpha’, in the worst way. We are human beings, not wolves or chimpanzees. I don’t want to live in a society were people are arranged in a strict dominance hiearchy- I don’t have time for dominance games. This is precisely why I have no love, time or respect for these ‘alpha’ men.

As far as I can tell, this false doctrine of ‘alpha men are strong deciders, beta men are their weak little bitches!’ is propegated soley to sell nonsense ‘player’ books to insecure men. It’s ironic that someone so passionately devoted to men’s welfare would embrace a paradigm that causes so much misery for men.

The image of the “Alpha” as the dull and bullying thug, or the pretty-boy, though is really a stereotype pushed by insecure betas insisting “I’m just as good! Better, even! Really, I am! I am!”

Study some real Alphas some time, and you’ll know what I mean. They are the type that know what they are going to do before the day begins; the ones whose words are listened to; the one who speaks their mind - and if a beta gainsays them, it sounds like petulant yammering.

Alphas know who the lesser mortals are, and are not particularly concerned with their opinion. They do as they will, and if they fail, they get up and dust themselves off instead of wallowing in self-pity. Many instances abound where the alpha is physically feeble compared to the betas that do his bidding.