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	<title>Comments on: &#8220;OKOP&#8221;, &#8220;NOKOP&#8221; and Oscar: a long post about class, family, and pride</title>
	<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2006/06/02/okop-nokop-and-oscar-a-long-post-about-class-family-and-pride/</link>
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	<pubDate>Mon, 01 Dec 2008 19:35:33 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: weight loss business</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2006/06/02/okop-nokop-and-oscar-a-long-post-about-class-family-and-pride/#comment-22218</link>
		<dc:creator>weight loss business</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Jun 2006 09:00:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2006/06/02/okop-nokop-and-oscar-a-long-post-about-class-family-and-pride/#comment-22218</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;weight loss business&lt;/strong&gt;

weight loss business
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>weight loss business</strong></p>
<p>weight loss business</p>
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		<title>By: perplexed</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2006/06/02/okop-nokop-and-oscar-a-long-post-about-class-family-and-pride/#comment-22216</link>
		<dc:creator>perplexed</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Jun 2006 11:54:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2006/06/02/okop-nokop-and-oscar-a-long-post-about-class-family-and-pride/#comment-22216</guid>
		<description>I am a white guy.  Should I feel guilty?

Is it wrong to live my life the best I can, and be nice to others who I meet, regardless of their gender or race? I think there's a danger of falling into the "I have black friends too" type of self-consciousness by over-analysing my behaviour.  I find I get best results by being myself in anyone's company - people appreciate that more than me seeing them as a woman or a black person or whatever and acting accordingly.  No special treatment, no worse treatment. It's like wearing "personality specs" where you see the personality first and last.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am a white guy.  Should I feel guilty?</p>
<p>Is it wrong to live my life the best I can, and be nice to others who I meet, regardless of their gender or race? I think there&#8217;s a danger of falling into the &#8220;I have black friends too&#8221; type of self-consciousness by over-analysing my behaviour.  I find I get best results by being myself in anyone&#8217;s company - people appreciate that more than me seeing them as a woman or a black person or whatever and acting accordingly.  No special treatment, no worse treatment. It&#8217;s like wearing &#8220;personality specs&#8221; where you see the personality first and last.</p>
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		<title>By: Hugo</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2006/06/02/okop-nokop-and-oscar-a-long-post-about-class-family-and-pride/#comment-22215</link>
		<dc:creator>Hugo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 Jun 2006 20:26:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2006/06/02/okop-nokop-and-oscar-a-long-post-about-class-family-and-pride/#comment-22215</guid>
		<description>Oh Cynthia, how I remember that class all those years ago.  I've come a long way since, thank you for noticing!  Cheers to you!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh Cynthia, how I remember that class all those years ago.  I&#8217;ve come a long way since, thank you for noticing!  Cheers to you!</p>
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		<title>By: Cynthia</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2006/06/02/okop-nokop-and-oscar-a-long-post-about-class-family-and-pride/#comment-22214</link>
		<dc:creator>Cynthia</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 Jun 2006 19:48:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2006/06/02/okop-nokop-and-oscar-a-long-post-about-class-family-and-pride/#comment-22214</guid>
		<description>Hugo! Wonderful post. You and I came into contact when you were the Brooks Brothers seemingly starched white boy from Carmel. And frankly, not only did I write you off, which I realize was my bias-- I was completely annoyed by you. But I agree with you about guilt and how it functions. I don't know from psuedo-guilt, but I do know that emotions that inspire growth have a driving purpose and are something to be slogged through, rather than tossed off. 

And hey, I'm glad to know you now, and share in your thoughts on poetry and life.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hugo! Wonderful post. You and I came into contact when you were the Brooks Brothers seemingly starched white boy from Carmel. And frankly, not only did I write you off, which I realize was my bias&#8211; I was completely annoyed by you. But I agree with you about guilt and how it functions. I don&#8217;t know from psuedo-guilt, but I do know that emotions that inspire growth have a driving purpose and are something to be slogged through, rather than tossed off. </p>
<p>And hey, I&#8217;m glad to know you now, and share in your thoughts on poetry and life.</p>
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		<title>By: Hugo</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2006/06/02/okop-nokop-and-oscar-a-long-post-about-class-family-and-pride/#comment-22213</link>
		<dc:creator>Hugo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 Jun 2006 12:30:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2006/06/02/okop-nokop-and-oscar-a-long-post-about-class-family-and-pride/#comment-22213</guid>
		<description>Well, it was real guilt, EL, but misplaced.  What should I feel guilty about?  Guilt that, when it came to coming to California (as my uncle put it) my family "got here first and stole more?"  My family's money was made largely through ties to the Southern Pacific Railroad (my great-great grandfather and my great-grandfather were both attorneys for that big monopoly).  While I am not going to say "Gosh, I'm so proud of them!", I don't share in a collective guilt imposed on me by my ancestors.  

I can work for a more just and equitable world without denouncing my heritage or engaging in a masturbatory fiesta of self-criticism.  Plenty of progressives from backgrounds of privilege spend so much time apologizing for that privilege that they waste energy that could be spent on building a better world.  Guilt is rarely a productive emotion, particularly when it is guilt rooted less in what one did oneself, and more in what one's class, race, or forebears did.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, it was real guilt, EL, but misplaced.  What should I feel guilty about?  Guilt that, when it came to coming to California (as my uncle put it) my family &#8220;got here first and stole more?&#8221;  My family&#8217;s money was made largely through ties to the Southern Pacific Railroad (my great-great grandfather and my great-grandfather were both attorneys for that big monopoly).  While I am not going to say &#8220;Gosh, I&#8217;m so proud of them!&#8221;, I don&#8217;t share in a collective guilt imposed on me by my ancestors.  </p>
<p>I can work for a more just and equitable world without denouncing my heritage or engaging in a masturbatory fiesta of self-criticism.  Plenty of progressives from backgrounds of privilege spend so much time apologizing for that privilege that they waste energy that could be spent on building a better world.  Guilt is rarely a productive emotion, particularly when it is guilt rooted less in what one did oneself, and more in what one&#8217;s class, race, or forebears did.</p>
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		<title>By: EL</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2006/06/02/okop-nokop-and-oscar-a-long-post-about-class-family-and-pride/#comment-22212</link>
		<dc:creator>EL</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 Jun 2006 12:21:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2006/06/02/okop-nokop-and-oscar-a-long-post-about-class-family-and-pride/#comment-22212</guid>
		<description>That last sentence should actually read:

In fact, I think that writing off the reactions of potential allies by assuming they are "pseudo" or simply a "badge of hipness" really limits our understanding of how "privilege" and "oppression" operate.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That last sentence should actually read:</p>
<p>In fact, I think that writing off the reactions of potential allies by assuming they are &#8220;pseudo&#8221; or simply a &#8220;badge of hipness&#8221; really limits our understanding of how &#8220;privilege&#8221; and &#8220;oppression&#8221; operate.</p>
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		<title>By: EL</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2006/06/02/okop-nokop-and-oscar-a-long-post-about-class-family-and-pride/#comment-22211</link>
		<dc:creator>EL</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 Jun 2006 12:20:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2006/06/02/okop-nokop-and-oscar-a-long-post-about-class-family-and-pride/#comment-22211</guid>
		<description>&lt;em&gt;Hugo isn't talking about anyone 'making' him ashamed. He's talking about the privilege to wallow in pseudo-guilt as a badge of hipness, instead of accepting one's background and origins while acknowledging privilege and working for equality.&lt;/em&gt;

What if it's not "pseudo-guilt", what if it's real guilt?  What if it's not about "hipness" but is instead about a legitimate wish to dis-identify with things one adamantly doesn't believe in?  Even if that dis-identification is, in fact, completely unhelpful, I don't think it makes sense to see it as coming from a disingenuous place.  In fact, I don't think that writing off the reactions of potential allies by  assuming 
they are "pseudo" or simply a "badge of hipness" really limits our understanding of how "privilege" and "oppression" operate.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><em>Hugo isn&#8217;t talking about anyone &#8216;making&#8217; him ashamed. He&#8217;s talking about the privilege to wallow in pseudo-guilt as a badge of hipness, instead of accepting one&#8217;s background and origins while acknowledging privilege and working for equality.</em></p>
<p>What if it&#8217;s not &#8220;pseudo-guilt&#8221;, what if it&#8217;s real guilt?  What if it&#8217;s not about &#8220;hipness&#8221; but is instead about a legitimate wish to dis-identify with things one adamantly doesn&#8217;t believe in?  Even if that dis-identification is, in fact, completely unhelpful, I don&#8217;t think it makes sense to see it as coming from a disingenuous place.  In fact, I don&#8217;t think that writing off the reactions of potential allies by  assuming<br />
they are &#8220;pseudo&#8221; or simply a &#8220;badge of hipness&#8221; really limits our understanding of how &#8220;privilege&#8221; and &#8220;oppression&#8221; operate.</p>
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		<title>By: The Happy Feminist</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2006/06/02/okop-nokop-and-oscar-a-long-post-about-class-family-and-pride/#comment-22217</link>
		<dc:creator>The Happy Feminist</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 04 Jun 2006 23:20:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2006/06/02/okop-nokop-and-oscar-a-long-post-about-class-family-and-pride/#comment-22217</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;I'M AN OKOP, HE'S AN OKOP, WOULDN'T YOU LIKE TO BE AN OKOP TOO?&lt;/strong&gt;

Hugo has written a very funny, but also substantive, post about social snobbery. When he and his brother were teenagers they mocked the class consciousness in their family by labeling certain people and behaviors NOKOP (Not Our Kind of People)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>I&#8217;M AN OKOP, HE&#8217;S AN OKOP, WOULDN&#8217;T YOU LIKE TO BE AN OKOP TOO?</strong></p>
<p>Hugo has written a very funny, but also substantive, post about social snobbery. When he and his brother were teenagers they mocked the class consciousness in their family by labeling certain people and behaviors NOKOP (Not Our Kind of People)</p>
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		<title>By: Geo</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2006/06/02/okop-nokop-and-oscar-a-long-post-about-class-family-and-pride/#comment-22210</link>
		<dc:creator>Geo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 04 Jun 2006 18:29:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2006/06/02/okop-nokop-and-oscar-a-long-post-about-class-family-and-pride/#comment-22210</guid>
		<description>My wife is Black and I'm White.   I twinge a little when she and other Black people - nod to each other, acknowledging each other when they're in mostly White worlds.   

I feel left out and sometimes emotionally feel like B - should just "be normal" and not be so sensitive to racism, sexism and bodyism that she encounters - as an assertive, "uppity" (in a good sense) person.

It is important for me - to listen - and to hear the feelings and the hurts and just the life experiences - so different from my own.

I twinge also when fellow Jews - say: "I'm not White, I'm Jewish" - feeling like they can "pass" - while my Wife sure can't.

Overt racism - isn't that visible for us in our lives, but more subtle things come up.  Often - one doesn't know - Which "oppression" is the issue - if any at all.

As an (not young)  Upper-Middle Class White Male - I see it most important to try to do things - directly when I can with others who may share similarities with me - A Jewish Voice For Peace - is one group I admire.  (Supporting others - People of Color, Women etc. - is helpful, but not often as a part of "their group").

Where we often run into trouble I think is where we try to: "help those poor ...." - (Blacks, Women, Poor People) - and are condescending, controling or asking others to spend serious time with us to assuage our guilt or whatever.   

We can help others - where we want to give help!  We can take care of our own emotional growth - as you Hugo and others have spoken of.

Thanks - for another Excellent Posting!

Geo</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My wife is Black and I&#8217;m White.   I twinge a little when she and other Black people - nod to each other, acknowledging each other when they&#8217;re in mostly White worlds.   </p>
<p>I feel left out and sometimes emotionally feel like B - should just &#8220;be normal&#8221; and not be so sensitive to racism, sexism and bodyism that she encounters - as an assertive, &#8220;uppity&#8221; (in a good sense) person.</p>
<p>It is important for me - to listen - and to hear the feelings and the hurts and just the life experiences - so different from my own.</p>
<p>I twinge also when fellow Jews - say: &#8220;I&#8217;m not White, I&#8217;m Jewish&#8221; - feeling like they can &#8220;pass&#8221; - while my Wife sure can&#8217;t.</p>
<p>Overt racism - isn&#8217;t that visible for us in our lives, but more subtle things come up.  Often - one doesn&#8217;t know - Which &#8220;oppression&#8221; is the issue - if any at all.</p>
<p>As an (not young)  Upper-Middle Class White Male - I see it most important to try to do things - directly when I can with others who may share similarities with me - A Jewish Voice For Peace - is one group I admire.  (Supporting others - People of Color, Women etc. - is helpful, but not often as a part of &#8220;their group&#8221;).</p>
<p>Where we often run into trouble I think is where we try to: &#8220;help those poor &#8230;.&#8221; - (Blacks, Women, Poor People) - and are condescending, controling or asking others to spend serious time with us to assuage our guilt or whatever.   </p>
<p>We can help others - where we want to give help!  We can take care of our own emotional growth - as you Hugo and others have spoken of.</p>
<p>Thanks - for another Excellent Posting!</p>
<p>Geo</p>
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		<title>By: curiousgyrl</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2006/06/02/okop-nokop-and-oscar-a-long-post-about-class-family-and-pride/#comment-22209</link>
		<dc:creator>curiousgyrl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 04 Jun 2006 10:24:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2006/06/02/okop-nokop-and-oscar-a-long-post-about-class-family-and-pride/#comment-22209</guid>
		<description>"I believed at the time to be unmerited good fortune and privilege"

What do you now believe it to be? 

I mean, I completely agree that shallow anti-elitism is simply the reverse of elitism (witness the easy OKOP NOKOP irony/sincerity flip, but I dont think that accepting the reality of your class and background is the same as aceepting the merit of the privledge it affords.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;I believed at the time to be unmerited good fortune and privilege&#8221;</p>
<p>What do you now believe it to be? </p>
<p>I mean, I completely agree that shallow anti-elitism is simply the reverse of elitism (witness the easy OKOP NOKOP irony/sincerity flip, but I dont think that accepting the reality of your class and background is the same as aceepting the merit of the privledge it affords.</p>
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