Comments on: “Our lamb has conquered”: A defense of pacifism in the aftermath of the Amish school shooting http://hugoschwyzer.net/2006/10/04/our-lamb-has-conquered-a-defense-of-pacifism-in-the-aftermath-of-the-amish-school-shooting/ Mon, 01 Dec 2008 19:10:16 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.3.3 By: Kip Watson http://hugoschwyzer.net/2006/10/04/our-lamb-has-conquered-a-defense-of-pacifism-in-the-aftermath-of-the-amish-school-shooting/#comment-26386 Kip Watson Wed, 11 Oct 2006 21:44:42 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2006/10/04/our-lamb-has-conquered-a-defense-of-pacifism-in-the-aftermath-of-the-amish-school-shooting/#comment-26386 If I might barge into this enjoyable tangent... Hell (the grave) is spiritual death or oblivion. Hence the Bread of Life. If you don't eat, you die physically. If you don't partake of the Spirit, you die spiritually. Also, the True Vine. If you are cut off from the God -- the True Vine, source of spiritual life -- you wither and die. Since we are spirit beings, to die in body is just to shed our physical clothing, to die in spirit is real death. If you starve yourself to death, it's not a consequence of the physical world making a moral judgement about you, it's just the way things are. Likewise, God doesn't want people to die in the spirit, but we have free will. He doesn't force us to partake of that which gives spiritual life. If I might barge into this enjoyable tangent…

Hell (the grave) is spiritual death or oblivion.

Hence the Bread of Life. If you don’t eat, you die physically. If you don’t partake of the Spirit, you die spiritually.

Also, the True Vine. If you are cut off from the God — the True Vine, source of spiritual life — you wither and die.

Since we are spirit beings, to die in body is just to shed our physical clothing, to die in spirit is real death.

If you starve yourself to death, it’s not a consequence of the physical world making a moral judgement about you, it’s just the way things are.

Likewise, God doesn’t want people to die in the spirit, but we have free will. He doesn’t force us to partake of that which gives spiritual life.

]]> By: Lynn Gazis-Sax http://hugoschwyzer.net/2006/10/04/our-lamb-has-conquered-a-defense-of-pacifism-in-the-aftermath-of-the-amish-school-shooting/#comment-26385 Lynn Gazis-Sax Wed, 11 Oct 2006 21:42:44 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2006/10/04/our-lamb-has-conquered-a-defense-of-pacifism-in-the-aftermath-of-the-amish-school-shooting/#comment-26385 Good point, jeffliveshere. I probably should have found a different way to say that killing someone seems not so easily compatible with loving them. Good point, jeffliveshere. I probably should have found a different way to say that killing someone seems not so easily compatible with loving them.

]]> By: jeffliveshere http://hugoschwyzer.net/2006/10/04/our-lamb-has-conquered-a-defense-of-pacifism-in-the-aftermath-of-the-amish-school-shooting/#comment-26384 jeffliveshere Wed, 11 Oct 2006 12:19:08 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2006/10/04/our-lamb-has-conquered-a-defense-of-pacifism-in-the-aftermath-of-the-amish-school-shooting/#comment-26384 Lynn-- As long as we're talking about metaphors: If you think that hell is eternal separation, or 'just vanishing', then why this sort of talk: <i>Given that this risks damning them to eternity in hell, it's hard to see how it can be loving.</i> I think that the metaphor of a place of eternal sufferring, which is what most people(?) are going to think of when one uses phrases like "damning them to eternity in hell," can be a useful one--it can convert people because it preys on their fears--that's one reason that lots of people interpret hell as fire and brimstone. If you really believe that hell is separation from god or 'just vanishing,' then you might want to resist using the language of 'damning to eternity in hell'; while such language doesn't preclude that hell still might mean separation from god, it's unlikely that most people will read it that way, if you see what I mean. Metaphors can be loose, but they aren't infinitely loose--and it seems to me that the hell of damning eternity is substantially different than the hell of simply vanishing. Lynn–
As long as we’re talking about metaphors: If you think that hell is eternal separation, or ‘just vanishing’, then why this sort of talk:
Given that this risks damning them to eternity in hell, it’s hard to see how it can be loving.

I think that the metaphor of a place of eternal sufferring, which is what most people(?) are going to think of when one uses phrases like “damning them to eternity in hell,” can be a useful one–it can convert people because it preys on their fears–that’s one reason that lots of people interpret hell as fire and brimstone. If you really believe that hell is separation from god or ‘just vanishing,’ then you might want to resist using the language of ‘damning to eternity in hell’; while such language doesn’t preclude that hell still might mean separation from god, it’s unlikely that most people will read it that way, if you see what I mean. Metaphors can be loose, but they aren’t infinitely loose–and it seems to me that the hell of damning eternity is substantially different than the hell of simply vanishing.

]]> By: Lynn Gazis-Sax http://hugoschwyzer.net/2006/10/04/our-lamb-has-conquered-a-defense-of-pacifism-in-the-aftermath-of-the-amish-school-shooting/#comment-26383 Lynn Gazis-Sax Tue, 10 Oct 2006 16:09:44 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2006/10/04/our-lamb-has-conquered-a-defense-of-pacifism-in-the-aftermath-of-the-amish-school-shooting/#comment-26383 I'm with Gonzman on the nature of hell - it's eternal separation (or, possibly, just vanishing rather than going on to spend eternity with God), and it's ultimately freely chosen. And it might possibly turn out ultimately to be empty (as I said, I'm a hopeful universalist), if no one in fact freely chooses it once we all have full knowledge of what we're choosing. I’m with Gonzman on the nature of hell - it’s eternal separation (or, possibly, just vanishing rather than going on to spend eternity with God), and it’s ultimately freely chosen. And it might possibly turn out ultimately to be empty (as I said, I’m a hopeful universalist), if no one in fact freely chooses it once we all have full knowledge of what we’re choosing.

]]> By: jeffliveshere http://hugoschwyzer.net/2006/10/04/our-lamb-has-conquered-a-defense-of-pacifism-in-the-aftermath-of-the-amish-school-shooting/#comment-26382 jeffliveshere Tue, 10 Oct 2006 15:33:23 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2006/10/04/our-lamb-has-conquered-a-defense-of-pacifism-in-the-aftermath-of-the-amish-school-shooting/#comment-26382 <i>...from where I sit, Hell is eternal seperation from God. And ultimately, you yourself choose it. Best metaphore I ever heard is that you can't get into hell except by squeezing your way past the cross in the middle of the gate.--Gonzman</i> Wow. Well, as a devout atheist, I'd have to say that this is a version of Christianity that at least doesn't make God seem like the Almighty PE Teacher who makes everybody run a lap because one guy screws up (i.e. Adam). On the other hand, why create a universe where anybody might "choose" to be separate from God, if you could create the universe in any way you wanted to, being all-powerful. And if the answer is "Free Will," then choosing to be separated from god for eternity or not is certainly a different sort of choice than what we normally consider a choice. For one thing, we don't make any other choices that have eternal consequences. For another--we really have no idea what <i>either</i> of the options are like; what's it like to be separated from God for eternity? What's it like to be *not* separated from god for eternity? But I stray far, far, far from the thread (sorry, Hugo!). …from where I sit, Hell is eternal seperation from God. And ultimately, you yourself choose it. Best metaphore I ever heard is that you can’t get into hell except by squeezing your way past the cross in the middle of the gate.–Gonzman

Wow. Well, as a devout atheist, I’d have to say that this is a version of Christianity that at least doesn’t make God seem like the Almighty PE Teacher who makes everybody run a lap because one guy screws up (i.e. Adam). On the other hand, why create a universe where anybody might “choose” to be separate from God, if you could create the universe in any way you wanted to, being all-powerful. And if the answer is “Free Will,” then choosing to be separated from god for eternity or not is certainly a different sort of choice than what we normally consider a choice. For one thing, we don’t make any other choices that have eternal consequences. For another–we really have no idea what either of the options are like; what’s it like to be separated from God for eternity? What’s it like to be *not* separated from god for eternity?

But I stray far, far, far from the thread (sorry, Hugo!).

]]> By: The Gonzman http://hugoschwyzer.net/2006/10/04/our-lamb-has-conquered-a-defense-of-pacifism-in-the-aftermath-of-the-amish-school-shooting/#comment-26381 The Gonzman Tue, 10 Oct 2006 13:15:45 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2006/10/04/our-lamb-has-conquered-a-defense-of-pacifism-in-the-aftermath-of-the-amish-school-shooting/#comment-26381 Jeff - from where I sit, Hell is eternal seperation from God. And ultimately, you yourself choose it. Best metaphore I ever heard is that you can't get into hell except by squeezing your way past the cross in the middle of the gate. Jeff - from where I sit, Hell is eternal seperation from God. And ultimately, you yourself choose it. Best metaphore I ever heard is that you can’t get into hell except by squeezing your way past the cross in the middle of the gate.

]]> By: jeffliveshere http://hugoschwyzer.net/2006/10/04/our-lamb-has-conquered-a-defense-of-pacifism-in-the-aftermath-of-the-amish-school-shooting/#comment-26380 jeffliveshere Tue, 10 Oct 2006 12:41:17 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2006/10/04/our-lamb-has-conquered-a-defense-of-pacifism-in-the-aftermath-of-the-amish-school-shooting/#comment-26380 Lynn-- Well, I do owe you a thanks for presenting some views that I didn't know existed. I'd say that as a self-identified Christian who doesn't believe that atheists will go to hell, you're the exception to the rule, but I'm willing to be disproven there. Still, if this is the case: <i>" I have hope that hell may ultimately prove to be empty."</i> I'd like to ask--Why bother to build a hell at all, then? Lynn–
Well, I do owe you a thanks for presenting some views that I didn’t know existed. I’d say that as a self-identified Christian who doesn’t believe that atheists will go to hell, you’re the exception to the rule, but I’m willing to be disproven there.

Still, if this is the case: ” I have hope that hell may ultimately prove to be empty.” I’d like to ask–Why bother to build a hell at all, then?

]]> By: The Gonzman http://hugoschwyzer.net/2006/10/04/our-lamb-has-conquered-a-defense-of-pacifism-in-the-aftermath-of-the-amish-school-shooting/#comment-26379 The Gonzman Tue, 10 Oct 2006 11:36:13 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2006/10/04/our-lamb-has-conquered-a-defense-of-pacifism-in-the-aftermath-of-the-amish-school-shooting/#comment-26379 And I am one of those who sees Muhammed as possibly the False prophet of revalation, with Saladin as the AntiChrist And I am one of those who sees Muhammed as possibly the False prophet of revalation, with Saladin as the AntiChrist

]]> By: SamChevre http://hugoschwyzer.net/2006/10/04/our-lamb-has-conquered-a-defense-of-pacifism-in-the-aftermath-of-the-amish-school-shooting/#comment-26378 SamChevre Tue, 10 Oct 2006 11:12:01 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2006/10/04/our-lamb-has-conquered-a-defense-of-pacifism-in-the-aftermath-of-the-amish-school-shooting/#comment-26378 Well, given that the Amish-Mennonite world is divided into thousands of squabbling factions, the statement that "some Amish" are registering to vote is not real helpful--they are certainly not in the mainstream, but there's not enough info to judge how many. Certainly, most of the Amish would be to the right of the Christian Right on most culture-war issues, in doctrine and practice. (Most Plain churches consider remarriage after divorce not a valid marriage.) Well, given that the Amish-Mennonite world is divided into thousands of squabbling factions, the statement that “some Amish” are registering to vote is not real helpful–they are certainly not in the mainstream, but there’s not enough info to judge how many.

Certainly, most of the Amish would be to the right of the Christian Right on most culture-war issues, in doctrine and practice. (Most Plain churches consider remarriage after divorce not a valid marriage.)

]]> By: Auguste http://hugoschwyzer.net/2006/10/04/our-lamb-has-conquered-a-defense-of-pacifism-in-the-aftermath-of-the-amish-school-shooting/#comment-26377 Auguste Tue, 10 Oct 2006 06:58:42 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2006/10/04/our-lamb-has-conquered-a-defense-of-pacifism-in-the-aftermath-of-the-amish-school-shooting/#comment-26377 <em>The plain world rejects association with violence to the point of not voting; governments use force, and we won't have ANY involvement in the use of force.</em> Sounds like that's something of a <a href="http://ace.mu.nu/archives/040144.php" rel="nofollow">bendable rule</a>. Or is the story trumped-up? I certainly wouldn't be surprised. The plain world rejects association with violence to the point of not voting; governments use force, and we won’t have ANY involvement in the use of force.

Sounds like that’s something of a bendable rule. Or is the story trumped-up? I certainly wouldn’t be surprised.

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