Comments on: “Cowboy up for Christ”: the Godmen, muscular Christianity, porn, and saddle imagery http://hugoschwyzer.net/2006/10/31/cowboy-up-for-christ-the-godmen-muscular-christianity-porn-and-saddle-imagery/ Mon, 01 Dec 2008 21:22:46 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.3.3 By: Genevra http://hugoschwyzer.net/2006/10/31/cowboy-up-for-christ-the-godmen-muscular-christianity-porn-and-saddle-imagery/#comment-27767 Genevra Thu, 09 Nov 2006 10:00:56 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2006/10/31/cowboy-up-for-christ-the-godmen-muscular-christianity-porn-and-saddle-imagery/#comment-27767 Hugo, I am fascinated by your perspective as a religeous person, coming from a feminist perspective. I find many of the things you wrote slightly contradicting in that you seemed to justify pornography (which feminists tend to allege as 'downgrading') but at the same time condoned same-sex relaitionships (which is traditionlally against the christian faith). Nevertheless, I found it highly interesting, and I am of the opinion that you are one of the rare people who has developed your own values upon an incorperation of well-informed information, beliefs and experience. I am only 20, so I'm not going to pretend to have any of those things to a large degree yet, but as a psychology student, I would like to say that I very much appreciate your open view of religeon, not necessarily as the one and only way in life, but as something that helps people to behave in a way that allows society to continue, and to have faith in love, life, fun, etc. I also appreciated that you recognised the valid points in feminism. Obviously, there is a two-way street which must be acknowleged, and the male belief that they must be 'in charge' and 'masculine' is not just an oppression to the female, but also puts a lot of pressure on the male, to live up to certain stereotypical expectations, and it is hard for both sexes. I appreciate your insight. Genevra Hugo,
I am fascinated by your perspective as a religeous person, coming from a feminist perspective. I find many of the things you wrote slightly contradicting in that you seemed to justify pornography (which feminists tend to allege as ‘downgrading’) but at the same time condoned same-sex relaitionships (which is traditionlally against the christian faith). Nevertheless, I found it highly interesting, and I am of the opinion that you are one of the rare people who has developed your own values upon an incorperation of well-informed information, beliefs and experience.
I am only 20, so I’m not going to pretend to have any of those things to a large degree yet, but as a psychology student, I would like to say that I very much appreciate your open view of religeon, not necessarily as the one and only way in life, but as something that helps people to behave in a way that allows society to continue, and to have faith in love, life, fun, etc. I also appreciated that you recognised the valid points in feminism. Obviously, there is a two-way street which must be acknowleged, and the male belief that they must be ‘in charge’ and ‘masculine’ is not just an oppression to the female, but also puts a lot of pressure on the male, to live up to certain stereotypical expectations, and it is hard for both sexes.
I appreciate your insight.
Genevra

]]> By: mythago http://hugoschwyzer.net/2006/10/31/cowboy-up-for-christ-the-godmen-muscular-christianity-porn-and-saddle-imagery/#comment-27766 mythago Sun, 05 Nov 2006 15:28:30 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2006/10/31/cowboy-up-for-christ-the-godmen-muscular-christianity-porn-and-saddle-imagery/#comment-27766 Chief, autonomy and independence (masculine OR feminine) are good things, when they aren't cast as a necessary reaction to the evil of The Other. Being a strong, self-sufficient, independent man is one thing. Seeing strength and independence as one's only defense against the predations of would-be romantic partners who want to slap a ball and chain on you? Not so good. <i>My life would be poorer if I didn't.</i> Besides, you've really got nothing to lose. You, a white, heterosexual, married Christian man are not on the hit list of anybody with any real power; the worst you're going to get is some name-calling from the liberal blogosphere. Why not party with the devil? He's not fishing in your pond. Chief, autonomy and independence (masculine OR feminine) are good things, when they aren’t cast as a necessary reaction to the evil of The Other. Being a strong, self-sufficient, independent man is one thing. Seeing strength and independence as one’s only defense against the predations of would-be romantic partners who want to slap a ball and chain on you? Not so good.

My life would be poorer if I didn’t.

Besides, you’ve really got nothing to lose. You, a white, heterosexual, married Christian man are not on the hit list of anybody with any real power; the worst you’re going to get is some name-calling from the liberal blogosphere. Why not party with the devil? He’s not fishing in your pond.

]]> By: The Chief http://hugoschwyzer.net/2006/10/31/cowboy-up-for-christ-the-godmen-muscular-christianity-porn-and-saddle-imagery/#comment-27765 The Chief Sun, 05 Nov 2006 13:29:30 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2006/10/31/cowboy-up-for-christ-the-godmen-muscular-christianity-porn-and-saddle-imagery/#comment-27765 "the other's in the rhetoric of masculine autonomy and independence." Been mulling this over, and I've decided this is probably the line in the entire post that bothers me the most. Exactly why are masculine autonomy and independence bad things, Hugo? Especially when you go into a classroom every workday and extoll the virtues of feminine autonomy and independence? I'm smelling a double standard here. “the other’s in the rhetoric of masculine autonomy and independence.”

Been mulling this over, and I’ve decided this is probably the line in the entire post that bothers me the most. Exactly why are masculine autonomy and independence bad things, Hugo? Especially when you go into a classroom every workday and extoll the virtues of feminine autonomy and independence? I’m smelling a double standard here.

]]> By: Joe smith http://hugoschwyzer.net/2006/10/31/cowboy-up-for-christ-the-godmen-muscular-christianity-porn-and-saddle-imagery/#comment-27764 Joe smith Fri, 03 Nov 2006 03:52:36 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2006/10/31/cowboy-up-for-christ-the-godmen-muscular-christianity-porn-and-saddle-imagery/#comment-27764 Dick: Exactly where did Christ ever condemn homosexuality? The only scriptural condemnation I'm aware of is in Leviticus, where it has pride of place next to condemnation of shellfish eating and fabric-mixing. Christ was known for hanging with prostitutes and tax-collectors. I'm sure faggots and trannies would have been on his list as well, were he alive today. Dick:

Exactly where did Christ ever condemn homosexuality? The only scriptural condemnation I’m aware of is in Leviticus, where it has pride of place next to condemnation of shellfish eating and fabric-mixing.

Christ was known for hanging with prostitutes and tax-collectors. I’m sure faggots and trannies would have been on his list as well, were he alive today.

]]> By: dickthedog http://hugoschwyzer.net/2006/10/31/cowboy-up-for-christ-the-godmen-muscular-christianity-porn-and-saddle-imagery/#comment-27763 dickthedog Fri, 03 Nov 2006 02:29:19 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2006/10/31/cowboy-up-for-christ-the-godmen-muscular-christianity-porn-and-saddle-imagery/#comment-27763 Gimme a break, Hugo. You quote scripture when it suits your political agenda, but ignore it if it's inconvenient. You support actively homosexual clergy despite crystal clear scriptural condemnation of homosexuality. You claim to be a Christian, then turn around and declare that many roads lead to salvation. Be a Christian or be a Unitarian. Your flightiness rivals that of any womyn I've ever met. Gimme a break, Hugo. You quote scripture when it suits your political agenda, but ignore it if it’s inconvenient. You support actively homosexual clergy despite crystal clear scriptural condemnation of homosexuality. You claim to be a Christian, then turn around and declare that many roads lead to salvation. Be a Christian or be a Unitarian. Your flightiness rivals that of any womyn I’ve ever met.

]]> By: Stephen http://hugoschwyzer.net/2006/10/31/cowboy-up-for-christ-the-godmen-muscular-christianity-porn-and-saddle-imagery/#comment-27762 Stephen Fri, 03 Nov 2006 01:07:49 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2006/10/31/cowboy-up-for-christ-the-godmen-muscular-christianity-porn-and-saddle-imagery/#comment-27762 Mr. Bad -- attempting to respond to Lya's ignorant and bigoted question with examples will do no good. Best to ignore. There will be reasons why your list only proves her point. The adage, we hate most in other what is most true of oursevles, certainly applies here. Stephen Mr. Bad — attempting to respond to Lya’s ignorant and bigoted question with examples will do no good. Best to ignore. There will be reasons why your list only proves her point. The adage, we hate most in other what is most true of oursevles, certainly applies here.

Stephen

]]> By: Mr. Bad http://hugoschwyzer.net/2006/10/31/cowboy-up-for-christ-the-godmen-muscular-christianity-porn-and-saddle-imagery/#comment-27761 Mr. Bad Thu, 02 Nov 2006 11:06:47 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2006/10/31/cowboy-up-for-christ-the-godmen-muscular-christianity-porn-and-saddle-imagery/#comment-27761 Is this a trick question Lya? Look around - you can see examples everywhere. I'll provide a few examples to get you started. Bill Gates is a white male (I don't know if he's Christian) and he has donated tremendous sums of his personal fortune to fight HIV/AIDS in Africa. Ted Turner, another one of those 'evil white males' donated a small fortune to the U.N. (to make up for the shortfall experienced when the U.S. government embargoed funds to the U.N.). I believe that I heard that Warren Buffett, another 'evil white male' and likely Christian, is giving the majority of his personal fortune away to charities and individuals in need. The Rockefeller, Ford, C.S. Mott, etc., Foundations? All started by white males, and many of them were - gasp! - Christians. And these are just the high-profile examples; examples of ordinary white Christian males sacrificing and doing charitable work for others unlike themselves (i.e., minorities, women, children, etc.) abound. Simply look around you. The stereotype of the "bigot white Christian" is simply the work of narrow-minded, hate-filled bigots who refuse to see anything but evil in white male Christians and who can't distinguish the difference between the individual and the racial/ethnic/gender group they were born into. Those people are no better than folks who say that all blacks are shiftless and lazy, all Latinos/as are drug dealers and thugs, etc. Is this a trick question Lya? Look around - you can see examples everywhere. I’ll provide a few examples to get you started.

Bill Gates is a white male (I don’t know if he’s Christian) and he has donated tremendous sums of his personal fortune to fight HIV/AIDS in Africa. Ted Turner, another one of those ‘evil white males’ donated a small fortune to the U.N. (to make up for the shortfall experienced when the U.S. government embargoed funds to the U.N.). I believe that I heard that Warren Buffett, another ‘evil white male’ and likely Christian, is giving the majority of his personal fortune away to charities and individuals in need. The Rockefeller, Ford, C.S. Mott, etc., Foundations? All started by white males, and many of them were - gasp! - Christians. And these are just the high-profile examples; examples of ordinary white Christian males sacrificing and doing charitable work for others unlike themselves (i.e., minorities, women, children, etc.) abound. Simply look around you.

The stereotype of the “bigot white Christian” is simply the work of narrow-minded, hate-filled bigots who refuse to see anything but evil in white male Christians and who can’t distinguish the difference between the individual and the racial/ethnic/gender group they were born into. Those people are no better than folks who say that all blacks are shiftless and lazy, all Latinos/as are drug dealers and thugs, etc.

]]> By: Lya Kahlo http://hugoschwyzer.net/2006/10/31/cowboy-up-for-christ-the-godmen-muscular-christianity-porn-and-saddle-imagery/#comment-27760 Lya Kahlo Thu, 02 Nov 2006 10:37:54 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2006/10/31/cowboy-up-for-christ-the-godmen-muscular-christianity-porn-and-saddle-imagery/#comment-27760 Got any proof of all the "good" done, Mr. Bad. As an outsider who is constantly bombarded by the negative stereotype of the misgogynistic, bigot white Christian, I'd be very interested in seeing proof that this isn't the sum and total of Jesus's followers. Got any proof of all the “good” done, Mr. Bad. As an outsider who is constantly bombarded by the negative stereotype of the misgogynistic, bigot white Christian, I’d be very interested in seeing proof that this isn’t the sum and total of Jesus’s followers.

]]> By: Mr. Bad http://hugoschwyzer.net/2006/10/31/cowboy-up-for-christ-the-godmen-muscular-christianity-porn-and-saddle-imagery/#comment-27759 Mr. Bad Wed, 01 Nov 2006 17:33:03 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2006/10/31/cowboy-up-for-christ-the-godmen-muscular-christianity-porn-and-saddle-imagery/#comment-27759 Ok Hugo, thanks for the clarification. However, I still maintain that while American Christians and white males may have perped the most "injustice" (because after all, numerically they were and are the majority of the people), they also probably have done by far the most <i>good</i> vis-a-vis, e.g., fighting to end slavery and oppression, contributing personal resources (i.e., time and money) to charitable causes, etc. The POV people like you and Kathy hold is not at all unlike the people in Pasadena who you blogged about: The ones who see blacks, hispanics, etc., through the lens of racism, such that when they show up on the streets on a night other than Halloween their first reaction is to call the cops. This is the same kind of knee-jerk reaction you show towards Christians and white males: Suspicion of all members of the disfavored group based on the negative aspects of some individual members of that group, all the while ignoring the good actions and behavior of the majority. Ok Hugo, thanks for the clarification. However, I still maintain that while American Christians and white males may have perped the most “injustice” (because after all, numerically they were and are the majority of the people), they also probably have done by far the most good vis-a-vis, e.g., fighting to end slavery and oppression, contributing personal resources (i.e., time and money) to charitable causes, etc.

The POV people like you and Kathy hold is not at all unlike the people in Pasadena who you blogged about: The ones who see blacks, hispanics, etc., through the lens of racism, such that when they show up on the streets on a night other than Halloween their first reaction is to call the cops. This is the same kind of knee-jerk reaction you show towards Christians and white males: Suspicion of all members of the disfavored group based on the negative aspects of some individual members of that group, all the while ignoring the good actions and behavior of the majority.

]]> By: Hugo http://hugoschwyzer.net/2006/10/31/cowboy-up-for-christ-the-godmen-muscular-christianity-porn-and-saddle-imagery/#comment-27758 Hugo Wed, 01 Nov 2006 15:20:48 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2006/10/31/cowboy-up-for-christ-the-godmen-muscular-christianity-porn-and-saddle-imagery/#comment-27758 And trust me, Sam, I do still walk back and forth between two worlds. I still can be found at the occasional Campus Crusade for Christ meeting, and still sit and break bread with folks from across a vast political spectrum. My life would be poorer if I didn't. And trust me, Sam, I do still walk back and forth between two worlds. I still can be found at the occasional Campus Crusade for Christ meeting, and still sit and break bread with folks from across a vast political spectrum. My life would be poorer if I didn’t.

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