On this holiday MLK Monday, I note that 2007 marks 39 years since the great civil rights leader was slain. He was 39 when he was killed, so the space since his passing now matches the span of his all-too-short life. In the last few months, I note, I have “passed” Dr. King; as of last autumn, I am now older than he was when he was slain.
A glorious but very chilly run this morning. Lots of frozen patches on the mountain, and no access to water in my usual spots — the pipes had frozen!
My wife and I were up in Santa Barbara last night; saw my sister, who writes about and participates in the local arts scene, dancing in this production. I freely admit to not “getting” most modern dance, though out of family loyalty, I am willing to be a loyal patron. When I was growing up, the term “middle-brow” was used to condemn those who preferred their art safe and unchallenging. But after decades around what is supposed to be avant-garde, I confess that I am a cultural philistine when it comes to music and dance. I don’t get most modern dance, and I don’t get John Cage. (I’m a bit more adventurous with visual art; I do have a passion for Rothko and Kandinsky.) Still, we had a good time.
And congrats to the Pasadena City College Lancers women’s basketball team, the only undefeated team in California.
Anyhoo…
One of my good buddies from the boxing gym had a date this weekend. He’s a year or two my junior, and he went out to dinner with an 18 year-old gal whom he met when she waited on his table at a local restaurant. He knows my views on older men dating younger women (see the various posts in that category on the sidebar), and I have not hesitated to take him to task (with good humor) for this. Ours is a relationship that can withstand some serious disagreements.
My friend said something I hear a lot from my peers who want to date women half their age: “You know, she seems very mature for her age. She’s not like other eighteen year-olds.” I hear this constantly from those who want to defend the practice of going out with much younger women; while they are often happy to concede that most women still in late adolescence ought to be off-limits, they invariably suggest that the one in whom they happen to be interested is an exception to the rule. “She’s an old soul”; “She’s very wise”; “Guys her own age don’t interest her.”
I’m not about to suggest that some young women aren’t more “grown-up” than their peers. As many, many young women who have commented on my previous posts have lamented, they find the guys in their own peer group to be immature, unchallenging, unattractive. They often report feeling alienated from peers of both sexes, claiming to have felt “more comfortable around adults” for years. In other words, they feel themselves to be exceptions to otherwise sensible rules. Their longing for someone older, whom they imagine will share their interests and offer them more opportunities to grow and learn, is understandable. What is less understandable is that so many older men rely on the young woman’s self-described exceptionalism to justify a sexual or romantic relationship with her.
Newsflash, folks: most bright, sensitive adolescents go through periods where they feel profoundly at odds with the majority of their peers. They are unmoved by the concerns of boys and girls their own age; what fascinates other kids bores these more thoughtful ones. They see their peers as vapid and shallow (they are occasionally right), and they imagine (alas, often wrongly) that older folks (often older men in particular) are more interesting, more sensitive, better-equipped for relationship. I’ve worked with enough teenagers to have met dozens and dozens of young men and women who are ardently convinced that they are exceptional, perhaps even unique. And though they are usually smarter than the average bear, their sense of their own inner maturity is frequently exaggerated. And a wise older person, be he a teacher or a prospective partner, can’t take these protestations of emotional sophistication at face value!
Of course, my buddy has his own corollary to all of this. A bit younger than I am, on the cusp of his late thirties, he is adamant that he is “younger” than his chronological age. He enjoys clubbing as much as he did a decade ago, for example. He sees his peer group (I’m a prime example he says) as increasingly made up of the “settled”. Though he talks of wanting to get married and have kids “someday”, he’s still in no hurry — and he’s eager to avoid dating women for whom enduring commitment is part of their near-term plans. His sense of himself as still young, playful, and promising leads him to his own sense of exceptionalism. Just as the gal he took out on Saturday night isn’t “typical”, he too sees himself as having little in common with his own chronological age. While other men our age don’t keep up on the latest music or the hippest clubs, for example, he’s on top of these things; it makes “sense”, he claims, for him to spend his time with much younger women.
I’ve given him my standard stump speech about the fact that women our age will challenge him to grow, while starry-eyed gals barely out of adolescence will be more likely to believe his bull. Like most men I challenge on this one, he protests indignantly that he’s up for any challenge, and that a “really exceptional eighteen year-old” can push him just as hard as a woman twice that age. I’m quite confident he genuinely believes what he’s saying. But the fact that he’s being sincere doesn’t mean he isn’t deceiving himself. And his self-deception keeps him from facing the fact that chronological age imposes obligations on us all: the call to transform and grow is not optional, it is not given merely to the few.
One of the things that bothers me so much about those who defend older-men/younger women relationships is that these folks insist on seeing themselves as unusual exceptions to some fairly hard and fast rules about the trajectory of our lives. A man in his late thirties flattering himself with the conceit that he’s still a youngster, or a frustrated, curious, young woman in her late teens who feels like a wise old soul, both are confident that they are unique, or nearly so. Their sense of being different means that conventional wisdom — which, for reasons I’ve gone over again and again, warns against older men dating women in their late teens and early twenties — ought not apply to them.
It’s a free country for those who are of age, of course, and my friend is allowed to date a girl born the year Ronald Reagan left the presidency if he chooses. I’m going to be his buddy either way; I don’t make my affection conditional on the politics or lifestyle choices of my family or friends. But I’ve heard protests like his — and those of the gal he’s dating — more than once. And from what I’ve seen over and over, what spending time together will eventually teach them both is that they are each less exceptional than they had imagined. Whether they come to that realization with or without concomitant heartache remains to be seen. But while she who cannot remember the first Gulf War has reason to be foolish, he who is old enough to remember the Iran Hostage Crisis has no such excuse.
Food for thoght:
My friend said something I hear a lot from my peers who want to date women half their race: “You know, she seems very mature for her race. She’s not like other Negroes.” I hear this constantly from those who want to defend the practice of going out with Negroes; while they are often happy to concede that most Negroes ought to be off-limits, they invariably suggest that the one in whom they happen to be interested is an exception to the rule. “She’s an old soul”; “She’s very wise”; “Guys her own race don’t interest her.”
I’m not about to suggest that some Negroes aren’t more “grown-up” than their peers. As many, many Negroes who have commented on my previous posts have lamented, they find the guys in their own race to be immature, unchallenging, unattractive. They often report feeling alienated from Negroes of both sexes, claiming to have felt “more comfortable around whites” for years. In other words, they feel themselves to be exceptions to otherwise sensible rules. Their longing for someone whiter, whom they imagine will share their interests and offer them more opportunities to grow and learn, is understandable. What is less understandable is that so many white men rely on the Negro woman’s self-described exceptionalism to justify a sexual or romantic relationship with her.
To compare race — which is an issue of identity — to an issue of age - is absurd. By that implication, laws against statutory rape are akin to laws against miscegenation.
Good grief. It’s like listening to people who insist they read Playboy for the articles.
“To compare race — which is an issue of identity — to an issue of age - is absurd. By that implication, laws against statutory rape are akin to laws against miscegenation.”
I’m not arguing against statutory rape laws, and agree that age difference does matter in a relationship at some point. But I don’t see how you’re not using as an issue of identity here. You’re discussing people who have reached the age of majority biologically and legally. So the distinction between them does seem to be largely an identity issue.
I guess I just think you’re sometimes too concerned with age as a fixed construct. It sometimes seems as though, having eliminated racism and sexism from your thinking, you’re clinging to ageism.
K, I don’t think you meant it this way, but your post is very negative towards the older man dating a younger woman. If a white man said “She’s very mature for her race, not like other Negroes” we’d all spot him as a condescending, racist asshole. But when the put-down is of a woman because of her age, hey, that’s just a preference.
[red herring]
Why else would anyone read Playboy? As porn, it’s a bad buy.
[/red herring]
I went from one LTR with a slightly older woman to one with a significantly younger woman. I agree that my second, current partner does not particularly “push” or “challenge” me, but then:
1. I specifically set out to find a relationship free of pushiness and challenges, after the last one, which had far too much of all that.
2. The second woman is a Leo, as opposed to a Virgo. If you follow astrology, you know what I’m talking about. The Leos I have known tend to live and let live, whereas I’ve never known a Virgo (of either sex) who was content to just let anything be.
. . . Anyway, the second partner is now older than the first one was when that relationship ended. (All my sentences look awkward today!) I think her lack of pushiness is more personality-based, though I don’t deny my being older has something to do with it.
All I can say, I guess, is that the second relationship is vastly healthier, and that change has found a way of happening to me regardless of my partner’s attitude. I think it’s more important to have a relationship that’s comfortable and friendly, rather than challenging. Life is challenging enough.
K, it’s not ageism to point out that life experience varies colossally between an adolescent (18 is still in one’s teenage years) and someone nearly 40.
“Ageism?!” Please. I’m a strong defender of the First Amendment, but if Congress were to propose a law prohibiting the coining of any new words ending in “-ist” or “ism,” I’d be hard-pressed to oppose it.
Maturity is about age, and one’s ability (or lack thereof) to live up to the usual expectations associated with it. It’s about as “ageist” to say “she’s very mature for her age, not like other 20-somethings” as it is “racist” to say “she’s got pretty dark skin, for a white girl” or sexist to say “he’s got a rather high voice, for a man.”
On the issue of bright young peoples’ perceived advanced maturity, I think it’s also important to note that smart kids grow up getting lots of approval and attention from adults, and that kind of attention is easy to get used to, and I think also something bright kids, consciously or un-, seek out. I know when I was a teenager dating older men, I loved being told how much older I seemed, and how uniquely mature and smart I was - adults were more likely to make a fuss over my personality than guys my own age were, because guys my own age weren’t really interested in what I would grow up to be.
“But when the put-down is of a woman because of her age, hey, that’s just a preference.” - Mythago
How interesting. I’ve had women in their mid-twenties refuse to date me simply because I’m in my thirties, and even had one lay claim to a personal injunction against “Creepy old guys” who had hit on her in the past. I don’t exactly believe I qualify (I also look younger than I am as well, as others have stated to me in person) but she isn’t the only one the vocalized this as problematic to them.
I’ve had women in their mid-twenties refuse to date me simply because I’m in my thirties
If one of these women said “You seem very uncreepy for your age, not like most thirtysomething men,” you have my full blessing to be offended.
Hugo-
1. Do you want to start an “ex attracted to hot young thangs ministry?” You could run a camp for a couple of years and write book. I’’ll bet you could get on Oprah. It might be very lucrative. ;)
2. Modern dance is awesome. I once saw a dance done with folding chairs. It was amazing!!! I talked to the choreographer/director after the show and I gave him an idea . . . swivel chairs. I hope it comes to fruition.
3. How do you have the inside track on these “hard and fast “ rules? Not too long ago women weren’t supposed to exercise in a strenuous manner. My grandfather was forced to retire at 60, and he lived well into his eighties. Are you a secret agent for the “supposed to” police?
4. A date, given certain mores, need not imply anything more than a nice dinner or an evening of experimental dance to the music of Philip Glass. A date doesn’t have to be an exploitive situation and it doesn’t have to lead to sex. Sometimes a person can have a heightened awareness of masculinity or femininity without anything overtly sexual. happening. This can be a beautiful thing.
5 Grab bag . . .
Are you, in some small way, envious of this friend? Are you angry with him? Is there something maddening about a man who refuses to “age gracefully?” Does he get a kick out of yanking your chain?
If one of these women said “You seem very uncreepy for your age, not like most thirtysomething men,” you have my full blessing to be offended. - Mythago
Myth, if I took everything personal that I heard from (certain) women concerning myself as far as physicality, there were periods in the past that not even a week would roll by without hearing something I didn’t like. It has changed somewhat for a few reasons, but one is that I have become hardened to some of it. Believe me on this point that it is something I didn’t exactly invite in the first place.
(Sidenote: I wanted to post on an earlier thread about men and women and standards of beauty, but given credence to this blog and Hugo’s insistence of going by Alas, a Blog’s policy, I obliged. Perhaps another time he will give more allowance, maybe devoting a piece focusing on men if he sees fit. Time will tell).
Hugo,
Neurology tells us that human brains are not completely formed until the mid-twenties. Prior to that, decision-making is handicapped, impulse control is a significant problem, and the ability to foresee consequences impaired. Bill Cosby was right — children are “brain damaged.” Not really damage, but just not done growing yet.
How does this feed into the “older man, younger woman” debate? For that matter, it seems to me the same would apply to the “older woman, younger man” debate?
It’s also why, I think, the youngsters you speak to, believe they can “handle” the situation. Their brains can’t see their own weaknesses.
Hugo: correct me if I’m wrong, but it sounds to me as if you’re saying to your late thirties friend: “Don’t want to get married and have kids? Well, grow up and start wanting that!” While I’d agree that he needs to figure out what he wants instead of making wishy-washy statements about “someday,” it doesn’t follow that there’s only one right answer to that.
Dave, I’ll give your first suggestion serious thought. As for the “chain-yanking” of my friend, I know him well enough to know that my reactions don’t dictate his sexual habits. As always, I am frustrated when others make what I regard as poor decisions, even as I recognize that I have made poor decisions in the past and am not in charge of the universe…
Jeff, I don’t insist he want to get married and have kids. I don’t want him to use his unwillingness to behave differently now than he did in his early twenties to justify dating someone less than half his age. “Women my age want different things than I want” is a convenient cover for “I think younger women are easier prey.”
Hugo, once again you’re infantalizing women. You claim that women who are eighteen are still “adolescents” and not able to determine what’s best for themselves and decide who they may hook up with, etc. So, if given that you see women who are, I don’t know, less than 25, as not truly fully-functioning adults, then you no doubt would argue that they shouldn’t be granted adult privileges like voting, entering into legal contracts, etc., lest some ‘unscrupulous man’ take advantage of them (women of course would never take advantage of anybody) On the other hand, you seem to have no problem imposing all manner of responsibilities on ‘adolescent males,’ e.g., when 17 year olds have unprotected sex, so it seems clear to me that you’re once again simply taking a male chauvanist stance on male/female relationships.
And you call yourself a feminist. No wonder a lot of feminists write you off.
Mr. Bad, I would say exaxtly the same thing about a woman in her late thirties pursuing a relationship with an 18 year-old young man. My objection is to age disparity, and the examples I encounter only seem to go one way. If I had a female friend interested in dating men half her age, I’d challenge her as well.
Hugo said: “Mr. Bad, I would say exaxtly the same thing about a woman in her late thirties pursuing a relationship with an 18 year-old young man.”
Then why is it the “older men/younger women” series and not a gender-neutral one?
I call BS on your claim above based on the simple fact that I’ve never witnessed you address this issue in a gender-neutral manner in any of your posts in this series. Your actions don’t track with your rhetoric.
Because I don’t see any women in my peer group dating teenagers, Mr. Bad.
As you know, I write based on stories and anecdotes — and in my circle, the stories I hear go only one way. If I had been friends with Mary Kay Letourneau, I would have held her feet to the fire too. But I’m not, so I focus on what I see.
Mr. Bad, you are free to set up your own blog and propose your own series. I’ll even link to it.
“Women my age want different things than I want” is a convenient cover for “I think younger women are easier prey.”
Hugo, I don’t know your friend, but it sounds less like he thinks young women are suckers and more that dating a young woman makes him feel young. It’s probably not a lot different for him than listening to the same music he liked in high school. He’s not thinking “Wow, I’m a manly stud for being able to attract younger women!” but rather feeling that he is young because his girlfriend is.
Not that there’s anything wrong with going clubbing in your 30s. My concern for your buddy would be that sooner or later, oldness is going to bite him in the butt and he’s not going to react well.
Indeed, Mythago, that’s possible. And that aspect around aging was what I was trying to address in my post last year on “Closing the Doors” http://hugoschwyzer.net/2006/10/26/closing-the-doors-men-aging-younger-women-and-ego/
Hugo Schwyzer wrote:
As you know, I write based on stories and anecdotes — and in my circle, the stories I hear go only one way. If I had been friends with Mary Kay Letourneau, I would have held her feet to the fire too. But I’m not, so I focus on what I see.
I join Mr. Bad in calling “Total BULLSHIT!” on this.
The Mary Kay Letourneau situation involved a very clear case of sexual child abuse. It was not a case of sexual intimacy between consenting adults.
It’s outrageous and disgusting that you dare to make a comparison between your supposed friend and Mary Kay Letourneau. Letourneau’s victim was 13 at the time she seduced him, while she was in her 30s. That is not even close to what your friend is doing.
Let’s see you respond in a similarly cavalier manner when a 30-something man seduces a 13-year-old girl.
Uh, I was referring to the fact that Letourneau and whathissname are now married.
Let’s see you respond in a similarly cavalier manner when a 30-something man seduces a 13-year-old girl.
That would be John Derbyshire’s department.
Hugo, you can’t really assume that if a sexual-abuse victim marries his or her abuser as an adult–especially when there are ties like children involved–that it was all free and consensual. If we were talking about those fundamentalist sects that married female children to men three times their age, I doubt you’d assume that one of those women, when she was legally an adult, was in a consensual adult relationship now even though it had begun when she was a child.
Uh, I was referring to the fact that Letourneau and whathissname are now married.
Sorry, but I don’t believe that for a second. As for “whathissname” [sic], the name of Letourneau’s victim is Vili Fualaau. (Of course, you remember the female’s name, but not the man’s.)
Mr. Fualaau has led a troubled life, probably due to trauma of the sexual abuse he suffered.
If you’re going to be an outright female supremacist, then just be one; don’t try to backpedal when you get caught in the act.
So, are you guys arguing that people actually don’t mature as they age? And that time doesn’t factor in personal development?
Sara said: “So, are you guys arguing that people actually don’t mature as they age? And that time doesn’t factor in personal development?”
Not at all. What I’m arguing is that if two people are consenting adults, we have no right to pass judgment on them re. their choices in dating partners. Further if 18 year olds don’t qualify as ‘adult enough’ to decide who they can date, then why in the world would we consider them adult enough to enter into legal binding contracts, vote, etc.?
Somehow it seems to me that there’s a strong possibility of simple envy going on with men who ‘poo poo’ other men when they hook up with young women. That and the fact that the person doing so this time is working on his 4th marriage in (less than?) 20 years raises a big red flag for me vis-a-vis their credentials for handing out advice on successful relationships. I don’t know, maybe it’s The Practice Effect (nod to David Brin). Who knows?
As one of those ‘mature for their age’ younger women (though I’m 23, not 18, and there’s a lot of growing done in those 4 years), I’ve noticed something somewhat funny and somewhat maddening recently (I was in a LTR, so I haven’t really dated as an adult before…and its all sort of amusing to me). I am absolutely not interested in dating older men, for a myriad of reasons. 30 is about as old as I’m comfortable with, the major reason being that I’d rather be with someone who lives and acts similar to myself and that I don’t like the experience and resource gap that creates an inequality between partners. There have been a lot of older men interested in me these days…and to the man they are always incredibly offended when I tell them I’d rather be with someone similar in age and ‘phase-of-life’ to me. I simply cannot understand the irritation, and I have gotten more lectures than I can count on how ‘men just naturally like younger women because blah blah evo-psych crap…’ (which is about the quickest way to turn a feminist girl off of you, just a piece of advice) and what a joy it would be for me to be with an older man because they’re more mature/know how to treat a woman/have the financial resources to take me to nicer places/etc and I just don’t know what I’m missing. Why the damned defensiveness? I’m not interested and I have my reasons, I’m not asking you to tell me what a fool I am. Beyond my personal feelings about the motivations of older men being interested in younger women (which are pretty much in line with Hugo’s), this reaction has always made me suspect on its own. Its always as if I am supposed to be so utterly thrilled that an older man wants to be with me, how could I possibly be refusing it?
There are certainly 5 years between 18 and 23. And I over-use parenthesis.
Rabbit,
Speaking as a late-blooming man whose almost 30, I wouldn’t give you the “you should be grateful to be with an OLDER MAN” thing. I’d really want to relate to you as a respected peer, since I don’t think that I’m drastically older / different / more experienced than I was at 23, and I started out behind. I’d feel only like I was sort of catching up to you. So I would disagree in the “phase in life” department, since, there are probably many things you’ve done that I haven’t. Hugo has (no offense) really packed in the experiences, with his multiple marriages, recovery, conversions, travel, etc., so I can see that the difference would look more stark to him.
But I think you answered your own question with the magic word “defensiveness.” You’re saying he’s too old to be attractive to you, and that hurts…particularly if he’s a nerdy guy who always hoped someday he’d get his act together and finally get with an attractive, sophisticated young woman like yourself. He may have spent years accumulating wealth that you find totally unimpressive, which also proves he kind of wasted his life. It’s almost exactly like how Maureen Dowd is unhappy that her Pulitzer doesn’t compensate for the fact that she’s menopausal…but at least she had her salad days, with a couple of decades running about with senators and movie stars: it’s possible that some of your rejected suitors never were with a “6.”
All bets are off if he’s a serial womanizer type, of course. I don’t have much sympathy for those guys either.
Well, to be fair, K, as you’re ‘almost 30′ you’re well within my (admittedly fuzzy) age parameters. I’m talking more like the almost 40 types that I tend to dismiss out of hand. There’s a huge experience gap between 23 and late thirties, no matter how ‘late-blooming’ you are.
And I agree with you on the defensiveness thing, but I think its also more than that. A lot of older men expect a younger girl to be just that: a girl. And to be easy to impress, etc. The fact that I’m not seems to almost offend them,and I’m not sure to what I would attribute that to. Perhaps, as you say, an expectation of wish fulfillment: now that they have money/status/whatever they can get the girls they never could when they were younger and less nerdy (although I’m a total nerd, so I don’t know what wish I’d be fulfilling). There are probably situations in which this is not the case, but they’ve not been what I’ve experienced recently. As a note, I swear I’m really nice about stating my preference…but it invariably gets turned into that lecture I mentioned. At which case I’m not really nice anymore, because that is so condecending and irritating.
er…younger and more nerdy, that should say in the middle of the second paragraph.
If your friend was knowingly preying on younger women that would be a different issue. If there was a pre-existing supervisory/advisory/power-gradient relationships it would be inappropriate regardless of the age of the respective parties. Neither of these very real concerns appear in your narrative. Instead…
“And from what I’ve seen over and over, what spending time together will eventually teach them both is that they are each less exceptional than they had imagined.”
You sound more worried they *won’t* learn they’re unexceptional. From the standpoint of virtue, if both parties are really only making a mistake then they’ll learn from it and be wiser for it.
figleaf
p.s. Hugo, have you proposed clear age guidelines for this sort of thing? In 10, 30, or 50 years your friend will still remember the Gulf War while the now-young woman he’s met will never remember it. Would you have the same reservations about a 48-year-old and a 68-year-old? Surely not, but if not then what admonition do you really have in mind?
particularly if he’s a nerdy guy who always hoped someday he’d get his act together and finally get with an attractive, sophisticated young woman like yourself.
Speaking from the perspective of a she-nerd, K., I don’t think you realize how off-putting that attitude is. (See rabbit’s post, above.) What you sound as though you’re saying is that a young, attractive woman is something you are owed, and it’s offensive to you to be told that the attractive young things weren’t just patiently waiting around for you, or that you don’t automatically get a hot girlfriend because you’ve saved $X to spend on her.
I’m sorry if this sounds harsh, because it isn’t meant to be; but you don’t appear to have given much thought to the attractive young woman’s opinion, except to complain that she’s being hurtful if she isn’t awed and impressed by the years and money you’ve accumulated.
Think of it this way: why do you begrudge those younger women the same interest in 18-to-24-year-old hotties that you have?
myth,
You miss the point yet again. The second paragraph of my response to rabbit is clearly explaining the old guy’s perspective, with which I DISAGREE, not justifying or agreeing with it.
I’m glad that you don’t put yourself in the ranks of the Entitled, but when you first explain that you’re older but a late bloomer and would “really want to relate to you as a respected peer”, then go on to put in the older guy perspective, it does indeed seems that you’re saying ‘this is how I feel’, especially when you add “You’re saying he’s too old to be attractive to you, and that hurts…particularly if he’s a nerdy guy who always hoped someday he’d get his act together and finally get with an attractive, sophisticated young woman like yourself.”
I just can’t understand what Hugo’s getting at on this. Don’t take this the wrong way, but I think at the heart of his views are some pretty mysterious ideas about maturity and masculinity associated with his religious conversion. There’s just no hope of communication with those of us who haven’t had religious conversions - we’re just not on the same wavelength.
And why is Mythago pulling out the ‘entitlement’ club? Can’t you express disappointment for not having something you would like without being accused of feeling entitled to it? I would like a motorbike. Not having one makes me unhappy, but do not think I am ‘entitled’ to one. The same goes for relationships. There are plenty of embitted women who are unhappy that they don’t have the relationships they would like, but no-one would accuse them of feeling entitled to them. But should a guy express a similar thought we get a reflexive accusation that he’s a Patriarch who feels entitled to have women do his bidding.
James, one doesn’t need to be a Christian to consider that a sexual relationship between an 18 year-old and a 36 year-old is always going to be problematic and unilaterally exploitative, even if both partners delude themselves that it is mutually satisfying, honest, and egalitarian.
Here’s my story … when I was 20, a formerly close friend of mine dated a 30 year old man who she ended up marrying the next year. At the time, she told us that they were going to have kids “right away.” Six years later, they’re still childless because she came to her senses (thank God) and realized that she wasn’t ready to have kids at 21. But now he’s 37 and still doesn’t have those kids he wanted (and was ready for) at 31. I might add, this guy dressed like a 15 year old skateboarder at 31. I always thought that was more creepy than “cool and youthful.” But that was just me — and what struck me as odd about it was that he seemed so proud of how “cool and youthful” he was, whereas if he’d just worn the same ensemble and not acted like it made him better able to relate to “us kids today,” I probably would’ve just though he was a dork and not much else about it. Additionally, he was a youth minister, which made me uncomfortable — I mean, he was dealing with people that, really, were only about three years younger than us.
I myself get hit on by a lot of older guys. But I’m in the market for guys in their late 20s pretty much exclusively. I have never been in guys much older or younger than me and I’ve never really gotten those who are. It makes me laugh when people think they are exceptional to their entire age group. Speaking from lots of experience with people who think they’re *so* mature for their age as well as those who think they’re so very hip and “act younger than they are,” I just laugh at them. I mean, any 18 year old who somehow thinks it’s “mature” to date 40 year olds and any guy that age who really thinks it’s not creepy and weird to only go after girls who are a whole person who can drink younger than them, don’t they kind of deserve each other? Well-adjusted teens don’t go around dating someone who could be their father. Well-adjusted adults recognize that there is a wealth of experience to be had in their 20s that no amount of so-called “maturity” can impart. How can someone who’s been on their own for close to 20 years really relate to someone who just moved out of their parents house?
I’m all about my own age group. When that friend married the man who was a decade her senior, I was reminded of the movie Big Daddy and used a certain quote from that to joke about it. Oddly enough one of her big arguments for him was that “he acts a lot younger than he is.” Then why not just date someone who really is that age instead of someone who’s clinging onto his own immaturity?
Great posts on this topic, Hugo. Really. It’s a subject that’s always hit home since experiencing a friend going through it.
Hugo, I’m not saying your views can only be held by a Christian. Just that I haven’t seen an attempt to justify these views in a way that could lead me as a non-believer to accept them.
You assert things like: “a sexual relationship between an 18 year-old and a 36 year-old is always going to be … unilaterally exploitative”.
Why should I agree with this?
So far as I can see it depends upon accepting some background views about sex and false conciousness that are left pretty vague and mysterious, but seem pretty dubious. You may not have to be religious to go along with these, but it probably helps. I certainly haven’t seen any reason given that would convince a non-believer of them, just have to accept them as given. That’s easy if you’ve had a relgious conversion - but not if you haven’t - hence my comment that we’re not talking the same language.
I am not entirely sure how I feel about the younger women dating older men issue. I am 25 and my boyfriend is 35. Before I started seeing him, I was dating a relatively mature 25 year old guy and he was about 5 years behind me emotionally and intellectually. I have always been more comfortable dating men that are older then me. I don’t want to be anybody’s mama.
mythago said: “I’m glad that you don’t put yourself in the ranks of the Entitled, but when you first explain that you’re older but a late bloomer and would “really want to relate to you as a respected peer”, then go on to put in the older guy perspective, it does indeed seems that you’re saying ‘this is how I feel’, especially when you add “You’re saying he’s too old to be attractive to you, and that hurts…particularly if he’s a nerdy guy who always hoped someday he’d get his act together and finally get with an attractive, sophisticated young woman like yourself.””
You know, this is only a problem for people who have a gigantic chip on their shoulder and who are looking for a reason - any reason - to be offended and knock somebody around, presumably in order to make themselves feel bigger and ‘badder.’ Typical bullying behavior.
Sheesh, I saw this as a man, K, opening himself up, trying to express his feelings (the way we are constantly browbeaten by feminists and women in general to do so), and you go on the attack. There’s simply no way to debate with people like you. We non-feminist men just might as well take the default position of “‘Scuse missus, I’m runnin’ jus’ as fast as I can!”, throw ourselves at your feet and grovel.
Blah.
K, you’re wasting your time with this one.
You seem to be assuming that men who date younger women make a habit of relationships with age disparity. While this is sometimes the case, not all men who are in relationships with younger women are necessarily “into” younger women. My creep-radar picks up the guys who are into younger women; but I can’t seem to group those guys with the guys who tend to date women their own age and anomalously end up in a long-term-relationship witha younger woman they genuinely respect.
Also, it seems that there is a non-negligible difference between the man who think “younger women are easy prey” and the man who genuinely respects his partner. I can’t see any man who thinks of women as “prey” as being genuinely respectful.
–IP
Hi Hugo,
This is just to inform you that I’ve written a response to your series here. (Not sure how to do trackbacks.) My response is just a personal story about an affair with an older man I had when I was 18. I’m now in my mid-20s, and I think I’ve gained enough psychological distance that I can credibly tell my story in a relatively objective way.
Thanks,
P. Burke
Mr Bad wrote: Somehow it seems to me that there’s a strong possibility of simple envy going on with men who ‘poo poo’ other men when they hook up with young women. That and the fact that the person doing so this time is working on his 4th marriage in (less than?) 20 years raises a big red flag for me vis-a-vis their credentials for handing out advice on successful relationships.
Nail. Head. Whack!
I think there’s a big difference between an older man dating a younger woman because she’s “easy prey” and because he’s genuinely interested in her. In my experience, I’ve been able to tell the difference between the two. Sometimes I chose to ignore it (generally when I was a teenager and hungry for attention), but most of the time I haven’t (like when the 60 year old English prof started following me around everywhere).
I believe that the guys who say they are impressed by a young woman’s maturity really are. And those young women, as you say, probably are smarter than the average bear. And perhaps she is as mature as the guy she’s dating hopes. Unfortunately, until they really get to know each other, it’s rather hard to find that out for sure.
In my experience, I’ve had considerably more happiness in my marriage to a man 10 years my senior than my first husband. My first husband was six years my senior and, as far as I could tell, dated me because I was “stupid and naive”. He thought himself to be so worldly and intelligent and felt this need to “protect” me…although I can’t say he did a great job.
“But while she who cannot remember the first Gulf War has reason to be foolish, he who is old enough to remember the Iran Hostage Crisis has no such excuse.”–Hugo.
I think it’s this attitude that I find most consistently amusing/annoying here: The idea that, for instance, an older man dating a younger woman NEEDS an excuse for you or anybody other than himself and the woman in question. The idea that a man or woman engaged in a consenting relationship with another legal adult needs to justify it to anybody else is just silly.
You and your friend obviously have long since worked out your boundaries, what you can and can’t discuss with each other. If he’s willing to put up with your censorious, busybody behavior that’s between you and him. For myself–and I think most other people–if I were dating somebody a friend considered too young, too old, wrong color, wrong religion, whatever, that friend would have two choices: He could be happy for me anyway and say so or he could have any other opinion he wanted and keep his mouth shut about it. And that’s the way I feel about friends, you can imagine how I’d feel about a bunch of tsk-tsing from the rest of the world.
Im a 17 yr old female n jus wanna ask a few q’s to all u older men out there…
1) what is it that attracts u to much younger teenage females?
2) What is it you want from them exactly?
3) If your happily married, would that prevent you from lusting or desiring a younger female student?
plzz…if ur a male who’s in their 40s or 50s, answer these questions honestly…I’ll chek up on the post real soon.
To answer your questions RT, I’m 41 and
1) I might occasionally find a 17 year old attractive if she was really pretty and sexy and carried herself well, was confident, funny, smart, etc. Most of the time, though, I’d say it was appreciation for how beautiful they are or just generalized lust if she was really sexy, rather than attraction in the sense of ever realistically having sex with them. I would never date a teenager and would generally not consider dating anyone under 25, largely because I think it is unlikely we would have that much in common, power imbalance, etc.. I’m open to miracles but I think the age difference would be hard to overcome. People change a lot more from 17 to 25 than they do from 25 to 33.
2) I’m interested in relationships, at this point, not just sex. I guess I could befriend a teenager and appreciate who they were but I wouldn’t want a sexual relationship and would want those boundaries to be clear. For me it would feel wrong and predatory to date a 17 year old. I imagine dating a 64 year old for me would feel pretty strange but for different reasons. We’d have a lot more to talk about but I’d probably feel less attracted to them physically. The power imbalance, however, might be less of an issue.
3) I think people (married or not) fantasize occasionally about having sex with all sorts of “inappropriate” people: co-workers, students, relatives, spouses of friends, even teenagers. Fantasies are normal and can help us understand what we long for and why if we think about them. It’s important though, to consider the vibes we send others and our own responsibilities and ethics. Private fantasy is one thing, flirting with them hardcore is a form of communication and can lead to a physical relationship or trouble. I think most high school teachers (college as well) could lose their job if they dated a student. Do they occasionally lust? Probably. ;)