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	<title>Comments on: Another post on marriage, social policy, choice and necessity</title>
	<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/01/17/another-post-on-marriage-social-policy-choice-and-necessity/</link>
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	<pubDate>Sat, 11 Oct 2008 15:34:17 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: bzbdmvdcrj</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/01/17/another-post-on-marriage-social-policy-choice-and-necessity/#comment-67273</link>
		<dc:creator>bzbdmvdcrj</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 Jun 2007 16:48:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/01/17/another-post-on-marriage-social-policy-choice-and-necessity/#comment-67273</guid>
		<description>Hello! Good Site! Thanks you! fedyggnqazm</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hello! Good Site! Thanks you! fedyggnqazm</p>
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		<title>By: Redisca</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/01/17/another-post-on-marriage-social-policy-choice-and-necessity/#comment-31921</link>
		<dc:creator>Redisca</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Feb 2007 21:10:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/01/17/another-post-on-marriage-social-policy-choice-and-necessity/#comment-31921</guid>
		<description>Commenters:  As someone whose family was severely decimated by REAL fascism and REAL Stalinism, I find the frivolous comparisons to feminism here very offensive.  I am sure I'm not the only one.  Could you please not use those terms as fifty-cent buzzwords?  Thank you.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Commenters:  As someone whose family was severely decimated by REAL fascism and REAL Stalinism, I find the frivolous comparisons to feminism here very offensive.  I am sure I&#8217;m not the only one.  Could you please not use those terms as fifty-cent buzzwords?  Thank you.</p>
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		<title>By: John Doe</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/01/17/another-post-on-marriage-social-policy-choice-and-necessity/#comment-29889</link>
		<dc:creator>John Doe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Jan 2007 16:28:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/01/17/another-post-on-marriage-social-policy-choice-and-necessity/#comment-29889</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;One reason why my feminism and my vague socialism mesh together is because I am so interested in seeing family bonds become less obligatory for own survival. When people agree collectively to provide for the common welfare, when we fully fund child-rearing and education, when we see the broader community as responsible for offering opportunity to all, then we liberate everyone to have relationships that are based on affection, based on choice, and based on the desire for personal growth. Perhaps it’s my own upper-middle class male myopia, but real love and neediness strike me as fundamentally incompatible. &lt;/i&gt;

Yes, it's myopia.  Your standard would rule out love between man and God; between children and parents; on the part of elderly people or handicapped people who are dependent on others.  There are many stages of our lives where we depend on the care of other human beings, and at all stages (for the Christian) we depend on God.  

Yet you're saying that love is "fundamentally incompatible" with those relationships.  Do you realize what a radical statement that is, especially for a professed Christian?  

Family bonds, when "obligatory," can be experienced as repressive, to be sure.  Yet it is only in taking responsibility for and caring for others that we become decent human beings.  Your receipe for society seems to be this: 1) None of us can give or experience love through much of our lives (because we need other people); 2) Only during a few decades in adulthood can we truly experience love; 3) Our experience of love occurs when we are radically atomised individuals who show love and help other people only when we feel like it ("choice") and only insofar as it furthers our own self-improvement ("personal growth"); 4) Instead of being caring and devoted parents/spouses because it's the right thing to do, we should shunt off our family responsibilities onto the state.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>One reason why my feminism and my vague socialism mesh together is because I am so interested in seeing family bonds become less obligatory for own survival. When people agree collectively to provide for the common welfare, when we fully fund child-rearing and education, when we see the broader community as responsible for offering opportunity to all, then we liberate everyone to have relationships that are based on affection, based on choice, and based on the desire for personal growth. Perhaps it’s my own upper-middle class male myopia, but real love and neediness strike me as fundamentally incompatible. </i></p>
<p>Yes, it&#8217;s myopia.  Your standard would rule out love between man and God; between children and parents; on the part of elderly people or handicapped people who are dependent on others.  There are many stages of our lives where we depend on the care of other human beings, and at all stages (for the Christian) we depend on God.  </p>
<p>Yet you&#8217;re saying that love is &#8220;fundamentally incompatible&#8221; with those relationships.  Do you realize what a radical statement that is, especially for a professed Christian?  </p>
<p>Family bonds, when &#8220;obligatory,&#8221; can be experienced as repressive, to be sure.  Yet it is only in taking responsibility for and caring for others that we become decent human beings.  Your receipe for society seems to be this: 1) None of us can give or experience love through much of our lives (because we need other people); 2) Only during a few decades in adulthood can we truly experience love; 3) Our experience of love occurs when we are radically atomised individuals who show love and help other people only when we feel like it (&#8221;choice&#8221;) and only insofar as it furthers our own self-improvement (&#8221;personal growth&#8221;); 4) Instead of being caring and devoted parents/spouses because it&#8217;s the right thing to do, we should shunt off our family responsibilities onto the state.</p>
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		<title>By: Mr. Bad</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/01/17/another-post-on-marriage-social-policy-choice-and-necessity/#comment-29822</link>
		<dc:creator>Mr. Bad</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Jan 2007 13:27:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/01/17/another-post-on-marriage-social-policy-choice-and-necessity/#comment-29822</guid>
		<description>james said: &lt;i&gt;"It’s just a guestimate. Do you think there’s a large number of women who’ve had and are raising unwanted children? I think childrearing is voluntary enough for my argument to stand."&lt;/i&gt;

Actually james I think that there probably are a lot of women raising unwanted children; those kids start out as wanted and then when the woman discovers something called 'parental responsibility' and all of the attendant sacrifices that go with it, those kids then become 'unwanted.'   'Unwanted' status is highly dependent on what point in the child's life you make the determination.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>james said: <i>&#8220;It’s just a guestimate. Do you think there’s a large number of women who’ve had and are raising unwanted children? I think childrearing is voluntary enough for my argument to stand.&#8221;</i></p>
<p>Actually james I think that there probably are a lot of women raising unwanted children; those kids start out as wanted and then when the woman discovers something called &#8216;parental responsibility&#8217; and all of the attendant sacrifices that go with it, those kids then become &#8216;unwanted.&#8217;   &#8216;Unwanted&#8217; status is highly dependent on what point in the child&#8217;s life you make the determination.</p>
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		<title>By: Hugo Schwyzer</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/01/17/another-post-on-marriage-social-policy-choice-and-necessity/#comment-29779</link>
		<dc:creator>Hugo Schwyzer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Jan 2007 22:44:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/01/17/another-post-on-marriage-social-policy-choice-and-necessity/#comment-29779</guid>
		<description>Yeah, the nation that produces Volvos is sure a nation of economic disasters.  I mean, what shoddy cars socialism produces.  Nothing compared to a solid capitalist Ford.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yeah, the nation that produces Volvos is sure a nation of economic disasters.  I mean, what shoddy cars socialism produces.  Nothing compared to a solid capitalist Ford.</p>
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		<title>By: mythago</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/01/17/another-post-on-marriage-social-policy-choice-and-necessity/#comment-29776</link>
		<dc:creator>mythago</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Jan 2007 21:15:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/01/17/another-post-on-marriage-social-policy-choice-and-necessity/#comment-29776</guid>
		<description>Actually, James, it's a literary device used to suggest that the speaker is actually basing his argument on something other than guesswork, or vague terms like "large" or "very large". But you knew that.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Actually, James, it&#8217;s a literary device used to suggest that the speaker is actually basing his argument on something other than guesswork, or vague terms like &#8220;large&#8221; or &#8220;very large&#8221;. But you knew that.</p>
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		<title>By: james</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/01/17/another-post-on-marriage-social-policy-choice-and-necessity/#comment-29773</link>
		<dc:creator>james</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Jan 2007 21:02:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/01/17/another-post-on-marriage-social-policy-choice-and-necessity/#comment-29773</guid>
		<description>It's not a real statistic - it's just a literary device used to suggest a non-specific but very large proportion. That's okay, I realise English might not be your first language. When people say 99.99% they don't really mean 99.99%, they just mean to imply everyone else is in a very small minority.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s not a real statistic - it&#8217;s just a literary device used to suggest a non-specific but very large proportion. That&#8217;s okay, I realise English might not be your first language. When people say 99.99% they don&#8217;t really mean 99.99%, they just mean to imply everyone else is in a very small minority.</p>
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		<title>By: Noumena</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/01/17/another-post-on-marriage-social-policy-choice-and-necessity/#comment-29768</link>
		<dc:creator>Noumena</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Jan 2007 19:39:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/01/17/another-post-on-marriage-social-policy-choice-and-necessity/#comment-29768</guid>
		<description>&lt;em&gt;The only truly competitive and significant economic power in the region is Finland&lt;/em&gt;

I had to read this several times over to make sure I wasn't hallucinating.  The only major economic power in the EU is Finland?  According to Wikipedia, the GDP of the EU in millions of international dollars is a little less than 14 million (that is, 14 trillion international dollars), making it the single largest economy in the world.  Finland contributes a little less than 180 thousand (180 billion international dollars) of that.  That's about 1.3%.  In absolute terms, Sweden and Denmark both contribute slightly more than Finland, and France and Germany both contribute more than ten times what Finland contributes.  Finland's contribution to GDP per capita is higher than France or Sweden, but it's also less than Denmark.  Do you honestly believe the moderate but strong projected economic growth in the EU (2-2.5%) is going to be driven entirely by Finland's relatively minor contribution -- and that Finland's growth will be enough to more than counteract the economic collapse you predict for Norway and Sweden (and France and Germany and the Netherlands and so on)?  There seem to be two possibilities here:  either Finland is also an `economic disaster' (and being an economic disaster is not particularly bad), or Finland is experiencing economic growth literally never before seen in the history of humanity.  

And, of course, none of this shows that libertarian social policies foster high standards of living in the long term.  Are you familiar with the work of Amartya Sen?  He won the Nobel Prize in Economics for his analysis showing that, for example, the democratic socialist (and, incidentally, strongly feminist) social policies of Kerala, India, were some of the most important factors in that state's dramatic standard of living increases (measured in terms of things like life expectancy and access to education) over the past several decades.  I highly recommend his &lt;em&gt;Development as freedom&lt;/em&gt;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><em>The only truly competitive and significant economic power in the region is Finland</em></p>
<p>I had to read this several times over to make sure I wasn&#8217;t hallucinating.  The only major economic power in the EU is Finland?  According to Wikipedia, the GDP of the EU in millions of international dollars is a little less than 14 million (that is, 14 trillion international dollars), making it the single largest economy in the world.  Finland contributes a little less than 180 thousand (180 billion international dollars) of that.  That&#8217;s about 1.3%.  In absolute terms, Sweden and Denmark both contribute slightly more than Finland, and France and Germany both contribute more than ten times what Finland contributes.  Finland&#8217;s contribution to GDP per capita is higher than France or Sweden, but it&#8217;s also less than Denmark.  Do you honestly believe the moderate but strong projected economic growth in the EU (2-2.5%) is going to be driven entirely by Finland&#8217;s relatively minor contribution &#8212; and that Finland&#8217;s growth will be enough to more than counteract the economic collapse you predict for Norway and Sweden (and France and Germany and the Netherlands and so on)?  There seem to be two possibilities here:  either Finland is also an `economic disaster&#8217; (and being an economic disaster is not particularly bad), or Finland is experiencing economic growth literally never before seen in the history of humanity.  </p>
<p>And, of course, none of this shows that libertarian social policies foster high standards of living in the long term.  Are you familiar with the work of Amartya Sen?  He won the Nobel Prize in Economics for his analysis showing that, for example, the democratic socialist (and, incidentally, strongly feminist) social policies of Kerala, India, were some of the most important factors in that state&#8217;s dramatic standard of living increases (measured in terms of things like life expectancy and access to education) over the past several decades.  I highly recommend his <em>Development as freedom</em>.</p>
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		<title>By: mythago</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/01/17/another-post-on-marriage-social-policy-choice-and-necessity/#comment-29765</link>
		<dc:creator>mythago</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Jan 2007 18:53:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/01/17/another-post-on-marriage-social-policy-choice-and-necessity/#comment-29765</guid>
		<description>If that was enough for your argument to stand, why throw in garbage statistics "proving" your point? What's a "large number"? You were presenting supposed math to show that it would be foolish to try to help the deserving without sufficiently punishing the foolish.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If that was enough for your argument to stand, why throw in garbage statistics &#8220;proving&#8221; your point? What&#8217;s a &#8220;large number&#8221;? You were presenting supposed math to show that it would be foolish to try to help the deserving without sufficiently punishing the foolish.</p>
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		<title>By: james</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/01/17/another-post-on-marriage-social-policy-choice-and-necessity/#comment-29763</link>
		<dc:creator>james</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Jan 2007 17:16:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/01/17/another-post-on-marriage-social-policy-choice-and-necessity/#comment-29763</guid>
		<description>It's just a guestimate. Do you think there's a large number of women who've had and are raising unwanted children? I think childrearing is voluntary enough for my argument to stand.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s just a guestimate. Do you think there&#8217;s a large number of women who&#8217;ve had and are raising unwanted children? I think childrearing is voluntary enough for my argument to stand.</p>
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