Comments on: Teaching “yes”, “no”, and more on the tired old lie about male weakness http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/03/01/teaching-yes-no-and-more-on-the-tired-old-lie-about-male-weakness/ Fri, 19 Mar 2010 09:35:01 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.3.3 By: submissive men and the myth of male weakness « Devastating Yet Inconsequential http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/03/01/teaching-yes-no-and-more-on-the-tired-old-lie-about-male-weakness/#comment-208455 submissive men and the myth of male weakness « Devastating Yet Inconsequential Wed, 23 Jan 2008 16:04:41 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/03/01/teaching-yes-no-and-more-on-the-tired-old-lie-about-male-weakness/#comment-208455 [...] While finding suitable partners can be vexing for anyone, I’m getting really sick of this idea that men are helpless when it comes to their sexual desires.  Hugo Schwyzer has written a lot about wha he called “the myth of male weakness,” and here’s a pithy summary (from this post): The myth makes clear that men, particularly younger men, are simply too weak, too vulnerable to testosterone surges and the imperious demands of the Y chromosome to exercise self-control. It’s a degrading understanding of what it means to be male, and it ought to make more men angry and indignant. [...] […] While finding suitable partners can be vexing for anyone, I’m getting really sick of this idea that men are helpless when it comes to their sexual desires.  Hugo Schwyzer has written a lot about wha he called “the myth of male weakness,” and here’s a pithy summary (from this post): The myth makes clear that men, particularly younger men, are simply too weak, too vulnerable to testosterone surges and the imperious demands of the Y chromosome to exercise self-control. It’s a degrading understanding of what it means to be male, and it ought to make more men angry and indignant. […]

]]> By: leapfrog http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/03/01/teaching-yes-no-and-more-on-the-tired-old-lie-about-male-weakness/#comment-111332 leapfrog Sun, 09 Sep 2007 19:55:11 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/03/01/teaching-yes-no-and-more-on-the-tired-old-lie-about-male-weakness/#comment-111332 SamChevre Surely the whole thing of being a predator means you hunt and your prey is not an easy catch - ergo prey are/is by nature either passive or protective of itself in one way or another. You wouldn't protect a bunch of sheep from a predatory wolf by telling them to stop being sheep, surely - sorry about the corny wolf/sheep metaphor, I've worked hard today! hhhhmmm - I have experienced men who think they have to have sex frequently no matter what and get themselves into a right tizzy if they dont. I have also felt my own libido raging - and then the swell subsides of its own accord, but I can be very happy without it. Much, much happier than I have been with a man who believes he has to demand sex. I have also experienced men who are more aware of themselves physiologically and know they dont have to demand or expect sex. The women I've known who think or act like they cant live without sex and demand/expect it are usually trying to escape something - do you think men are the same? maybe they're unsatisfied in some other way SamChevre

Surely the whole thing of being a predator means you hunt and your prey is not an easy catch - ergo prey are/is by nature either passive or protective of itself in one way or another. You wouldn’t protect a bunch of sheep from a predatory wolf by telling them to stop being sheep, surely - sorry about the corny wolf/sheep metaphor, I’ve worked hard today!

hhhhmmm - I have experienced men who think they have to have sex frequently no matter what and get themselves into a right tizzy if they dont. I have also felt my own libido raging - and then the swell subsides of its own accord, but I can be very happy without it. Much, much happier than I have been with a man who believes he has to demand sex.

I have also experienced men who are more aware of themselves physiologically and know they dont have to demand or expect sex.

The women I’ve known who think or act like they cant live without sex and demand/expect it are usually trying to escape something - do you think men are the same? maybe they’re unsatisfied in some other way

]]> By: mythago http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/03/01/teaching-yes-no-and-more-on-the-tired-old-lie-about-male-weakness/#comment-33112 mythago Sun, 11 Mar 2007 06:07:39 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/03/01/teaching-yes-no-and-more-on-the-tired-old-lie-about-male-weakness/#comment-33112 <I>A society where predators aren’t rewarded will tend to develop less predators</I> A society where predation is discouraged and predators are punished will also tend to develop less predators. Probably, I'd wager, even fewer predators than a society where failing to protect oneself sufficiently is phrased as "rewarding" predators. A society where predators aren’t rewarded will tend to develop less predators

A society where predation is discouraged and predators are punished will also tend to develop less predators. Probably, I’d wager, even fewer predators than a society where failing to protect oneself sufficiently is phrased as “rewarding” predators.

]]> By: What I’m Reading Since I’m Not Writing at Faux Real Tho! http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/03/01/teaching-yes-no-and-more-on-the-tired-old-lie-about-male-weakness/#comment-33066 What I’m Reading Since I’m Not Writing at Faux Real Tho! Sat, 10 Mar 2007 20:25:33 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/03/01/teaching-yes-no-and-more-on-the-tired-old-lie-about-male-weakness/#comment-33066 [...] Teaching “yes”, “no”, and more on the tired old lie about male weakness: The myth of male weakness becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy just as myths about female weakness do. If you tell a young woman that “girls can’t lift weights”, she might end up believing it. She might never pick up a barbell, never discover her very real physical strength. Her belief in the myth ended up making the myth real for her. And if you tell a young man, explicitly or implicitly, that his sexual urges are uncontrollable and that women are the ones who ought to set boundaries and limits, he’ll accept it. It will become true for him. He won’t do what he is capable of doing, what he is morally responsible for doing, simply because he chooses to believe that it’s not his job, his role. [...] […] Teaching “yes”, “no”, and more on the tired old lie about male weakness: The myth of male weakness becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy just as myths about female weakness do. If you tell a young woman that “girls can’t lift weights”, she might end up believing it. She might never pick up a barbell, never discover her very real physical strength. Her belief in the myth ended up making the myth real for her. And if you tell a young man, explicitly or implicitly, that his sexual urges are uncontrollable and that women are the ones who ought to set boundaries and limits, he’ll accept it. It will become true for him. He won’t do what he is capable of doing, what he is morally responsible for doing, simply because he chooses to believe that it’s not his job, his role. […]

]]> By: Hugo Schwyzer http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/03/01/teaching-yes-no-and-more-on-the-tired-old-lie-about-male-weakness/#comment-32937 Hugo Schwyzer Fri, 09 Mar 2007 16:00:42 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/03/01/teaching-yes-no-and-more-on-the-tired-old-lie-about-male-weakness/#comment-32937 SamChevre, you write: <em>but the point isn’t developing less predators, it’s avoiding being preyed on. </em> My brother, that sounds a lot like focusing more on the symptoms than the disease. SamChevre, you write: but the point isn’t developing less predators, it’s avoiding being preyed on.

My brother, that sounds a lot like focusing more on the symptoms than the disease.

]]> By: britgirlsf http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/03/01/teaching-yes-no-and-more-on-the-tired-old-lie-about-male-weakness/#comment-32915 britgirlsf Fri, 09 Mar 2007 10:38:30 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/03/01/teaching-yes-no-and-more-on-the-tired-old-lie-about-male-weakness/#comment-32915 James is correct. The First Wave was full of people who came out of the temperance movement and believed that women were naturally pure creatures constantly assailed by men's hateful libidos. The Second Wave not so much, obviously, but the disagreement between woman as equal to man and woman as pure being exists to this day within the movement. However, your basic point is valid. Both stereotypes - woman as virgin saint and man as ravening beast - are harmful to everyone. I find it depressing how many young people of both genders seem to find the idea of women actually wanting sex - for themselves, not to make someone else happy - mystifying. We still have a lot of work to do there. James is correct. The First Wave was full of people who came out of the temperance movement and believed that women were naturally pure creatures constantly assailed by men’s hateful libidos. The Second Wave not so much, obviously, but the disagreement between woman as equal to man and woman as pure being exists to this day within the movement.
However, your basic point is valid. Both stereotypes - woman as virgin saint and man as ravening beast - are harmful to everyone.
I find it depressing how many young people of both genders seem to find the idea of women actually wanting sex - for themselves, not to make someone else happy - mystifying. We still have a lot of work to do there.

]]> By: SamChevre http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/03/01/teaching-yes-no-and-more-on-the-tired-old-lie-about-male-weakness/#comment-32512 SamChevre Tue, 06 Mar 2007 15:53:10 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/03/01/teaching-yes-no-and-more-on-the-tired-old-lie-about-male-weakness/#comment-32512 Hugo, I tend to see this differently than you, but I'm wondering if my formulation would be as problematic to you as the one you quote. I would tend to put it in these terms: Men and women should be encouraged to care for themselves. That includes protecting oneself from predators. Since there are male predators, women should learn how to avoid being preyed on by them (and vice versa for men.) A society where predators aren't rewarded will tend to develop less predators--a good thing--but the point isn't developing less predators, it's avoiding being preyed on. Hugo,

I tend to see this differently than you, but I’m wondering if my formulation would be as problematic to you as the one you quote.

I would tend to put it in these terms:

Men and women should be encouraged to care for themselves. That includes protecting oneself from predators. Since there are male predators, women should learn how to avoid being preyed on by them (and vice versa for men.) A society where predators aren’t rewarded will tend to develop less predators–a good thing–but the point isn’t developing less predators, it’s avoiding being preyed on.

]]> By: bmmg39 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/03/01/teaching-yes-no-and-more-on-the-tired-old-lie-about-male-weakness/#comment-32448 bmmg39 Mon, 05 Mar 2007 23:12:56 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/03/01/teaching-yes-no-and-more-on-the-tired-old-lie-about-male-weakness/#comment-32448 "If this isn’t impying that men tend to be in thrall to their ‘passions’ then I don’t know what is. I think this is a patronising way to describe men, but also in the context of his post, a complete double standard - it’s precisely the behaviour he’s calling women out on, except he doesn’t think that women can be in thrall to their ‘passions’ so the reason they do it is because they secretly crave romance and love." Yes, this is precisely why I say -- and I think Hugo agrees, to an extent -- that the "male weakness" concept screws over everyone. It's highly patronizing to men to suggest that they're lascivious ogres who simply cannot control themselves, and it's unfair to women to place the whole problem -- if you think it's a problem -- of promiscuity at their doorstep, suggesting that they, as women, really only have sex to gain acceptance or because they were pestered into doing so. “If this isn’t impying that men tend to be in thrall to their ‘passions’ then I don’t know what is. I think this is a patronising way to describe men, but also in the context of his post, a complete double standard - it’s precisely the behaviour he’s calling women out on, except he doesn’t think that women can be in thrall to their ‘passions’ so the reason they do it is because they secretly crave romance and love.”

Yes, this is precisely why I say — and I think Hugo agrees, to an extent — that the “male weakness” concept screws over everyone. It’s highly patronizing to men to suggest that they’re lascivious ogres who simply cannot control themselves, and it’s unfair to women to place the whole problem — if you think it’s a problem — of promiscuity at their doorstep, suggesting that they, as women, really only have sex to gain acceptance or because they were pestered into doing so.

]]> By: magikmama http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/03/01/teaching-yes-no-and-more-on-the-tired-old-lie-about-male-weakness/#comment-32435 magikmama Mon, 05 Mar 2007 19:53:09 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/03/01/teaching-yes-no-and-more-on-the-tired-old-lie-about-male-weakness/#comment-32435 DJW - yeah, it's one of my favorites. I wish it was something that was taught in sex-ed classes. Actually, I guess my issue is that what they teach in sex-ed should really be part of biology classes, and what we need is relationship-ed, as in, how to navigate all these god damn feelings education. At least, it has been my experience that most people can figure out how to fuck, but not so much how to figure out when/why to fuck in a way that is positive for all the participants. Especially not in our culture. DJW - yeah, it’s one of my favorites. I wish it was something that was taught in sex-ed classes. Actually, I guess my issue is that what they teach in sex-ed should really be part of biology classes, and what we need is relationship-ed, as in, how to navigate all these god damn feelings education. At least, it has been my experience that most people can figure out how to fuck, but not so much how to figure out when/why to fuck in a way that is positive for all the participants. Especially not in our culture.

]]> By: Kate http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/03/01/teaching-yes-no-and-more-on-the-tired-old-lie-about-male-weakness/#comment-32415 Kate Mon, 05 Mar 2007 17:13:05 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/03/01/teaching-yes-no-and-more-on-the-tired-old-lie-about-male-weakness/#comment-32415 Actually, Hugo, I have just found this post of yours http://hugoschwyzer.net/2006/07/13/a-good-bishop-gets-it-dead-wrong-more-on-womens-clothing-male-desire-and-gods-gift-of-self-control/ which covers the same sort of ground, though actually Nancy Leigh DeMoss is quoted endorsing the aims of the Modesty Project by invoking 1 Corintians 6:19 which to me is kind of offensive. But this is getting OT so I'll leave you there! Actually, Hugo, I have just found this post of yours

http://hugoschwyzer.net/2006/07/13/a-good-bishop-gets-it-dead-wrong-more-on-womens-clothing-male-desire-and-gods-gift-of-self-control/

which covers the same sort of ground, though actually Nancy Leigh DeMoss is quoted endorsing the aims of the Modesty Project by invoking 1 Corintians 6:19 which to me is kind of offensive.
But this is getting OT so I’ll leave you there!

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