I am feeling a bit better as the day wears on. I will be re-energized for my classes tomorrow and the rest of the week; I’m on retreat this coming weekend in the mountains with the All Saints confirmation class. Three adults, twenty kids, and lots of prayer, discussion, team building, and snowball fights. I’ll need lots of energy for that.
Lately, I am happy to say, many people have been telling me that I’ll be a wonderful father. (This marks a huge improvement — a decade ago, I was told by more than a few people “never have kids, whatever you do, Hugo.”) I’m happy to hear this from folks, because I am now at last at the point where I feel truly ready to be a father. Until very recently, my own impatience and my own narcissism would have made me at best an uninvolved Dad. I’m eager now, and though I can’t possibly understand what it’s like to become a parent until I become one, I’m as ready as anyone can be who has no idea what he might be getting into!
And all of these strokes have me thinking about male privilege. Let me explain. Not long ago, I was at a party with some friends who had recently had a new baby. Until very recently, I would have found any number of reasons not to hold the newborn. But this time, when the little one was placed gently in my arms, I responded enthusiastically and genuinely. I rocked him and cradled him without anxiety; it felt marvelous to hold someone so small and so new. (In the past, those feelings have been primarily directed towards four-legged children; until recently, puppies and kits were more interesting to me than human babies. Now it’s at least equal.)
What I noticed, as I rather reluctantly handed the tiny lad back to his Mama, was how much “stroking” I got. Several women (and one or two of the men) gushed over my “performance” with the child. “You’re so easy with babies”, one woman said, “you’ll be such a great father!” Another said: “Don’t you just love seeing a man showing so much nurturing?” These women didn’t know much about my past. They weren’t praising Hugo for having come so far, they were praising a man they only knew slightly for demonstrating a basic level of competence with small children. And that struck me as profound male privilege.
We assume that women, both those who have had children and those who haven’t, are “natural” nurturers. We take it for granted that women will enjoy holding and cuddling small babies, including those who aren’t their own. We don’t gush with surprise when we see a woman rocking a little one, singing a lullaby. And perhaps in some more enlightened and egalitarian circles, there are those who are equally unsurprised by a display of authentic tenderness and nurturing from a man who isn’t a father. But from what I’ve been seeing lately, far too many folks are still agog at the sight of a child safe in the arms of the likes of me.
Feminists have long pointed out that we tend to praise in men what we take for granted in women. When a man does do his share of the household duties, when he does show some willingness to wash the dishes and fold the laundry, he’s far more likely to win praise for it than would a woman. This happens with child care too, of course. And what’s striking to me now, as I finally get around to the idea that I might be a really good and devoted father, is how much approbation a man gets for expressing genuine interest in his children. Even after all this time, after all the social change the world has seen, there are many of us who are still awed and impressed by adult men who show signs of being as devoted to children as a woman. That bothers me.
I’ve spent a long time thinking about fatherhood. Without opening up the old debate over post-abortion syndrome, I will say that I still think about the child my high school girlfriend and I chose not to have. If we had kept the baby, my firstborn would have turned 21 last month; he or she would be older than many of my students. I would have been a hopeless father as a teenager, of course, but the sense that we made the best decision we could doesn’t entirely make the sense of loss, of absence, disappear. And as I get closer and closer to becoming a father, I think of all the years and years I spent making sure I wouldn’t become one. And I’m grateful that I had the choice to postpone fatherhood until I was authentically ready.
And of course, my male biology has allowed me to wait to “get ready.” Though there is some evidence of higher rates of certain birth defects in children born to older fathers, there remains no question that men can still father healthy babies into their forties, fifties, sixties, and beyond. In my family, we have a large number of men who became fathers in their forties and fifties; most were marvelous Dads. Many had had a “first family” when they were younger, and their parenting skills were invariably better when they got around to the second batch. There’s a tenderness that many men often only find on the high side of forty, or fifty. And because our bodies allow us to become fathers at that age, and because our culture indulged our prolonged adolescences, we could afford to wait and wait and wait. That’s another form of male privilege.
I’d call this the opposite of male privilege. Its a repressive gender role that men are forced into…that they are not supposed to know the pleasure of holding a baby.
This has gotten a lot worse with the panic over child molesters: many daycares won’t hire men, and British Airways won’t seat men next to children travelling alone.
Big time thread drift, Joe. Not the place at all to talk about fear about men and molestation. And I suppose it’s the opposite of male privilege that we aren’t supposed to know about the joys of changing a diaper too?
I consider you somewhat of a father figure, Hugo. You are my teacher and my friend. But you are also one of the few older men that talks to me about sensitive issues and things I’m going through. I am very thankful for that.
And for what it’s worth, my boyfriend is way better with kids than I am. He knows how to hold and feed a baby because his grandparents are widely-known foster parents (she even had James Dobson’s son, Ryan Dobson, before he was adopted). Of course, his ability to have fun with kids is more about his laid back personality. It has nothing to do with gender at all.
Thanks, Merm; that means a great deal to me.
As a woman who does not enjoy other people’s children (I will host them for a play date providing they are able to wipe their own noses and bottoms), I am a devoted parent. For a while, my husband would pick our youngest up from preschool, staying for a bit while the kids played after school. One might think that he also walked on water, made Cheetos and apple juice from a gum wrapper and water bottle, etc. The moms LOVED him. No one ever gushed about how wonderful I was when I was the one standing there, watching the kids play. It caused a lot of resentment on my part; he was stepping in for a very public half hour while I was the full-time, at home parent.
You are right that it is male privilege; however it also smacks of the cultural presupposition that men are not naturally good at caring for children. I hear mothers saying to their little girls, as they play with dolls, “Oh, what good mommy you’ll be,” but I’ve yet to hear anyone besides myself and my sister who say to their sons as they play with dolls or stuffed toys, “What a great daddy you’ll be someday!” My grandmother actually said, when my first child was young, that she was surprised that I was so good at being a parent, as I hadn’t played with dolls at all. Those gender role expectations are a real obstacle to letting people be who they are, and cause us to miss the chance to teach everyone that nurturing and compassion are not just for those who sport vaginas.
This has come up recently in my own life. I was holding one of my baby cousins at a recent family event, and my teenaged brother asked me if I could show him how to hold the baby. It made me really sad that my brother, who is a kind and nurturing and great with kids, had never held a baby. Of course, once the rest of the family saw him holding the baby, he was the hero of the party.
Is this really an example of male privilege? It seems more like surprise over somebody who is breaking societal expectations. If the story changed from you and a baby into a story about a woman and, say, fixing the sink, people would ooh and aah over her mechanical abilities, too.
Perhaps, Macht. Then again, sinks don’t need to be fixed several times a day. Men not doing child care is more of a burden to women than women not doing “fix-it” jobs around the house is a burden to men. Lawns need to be mown far less often than diapers need changing; oil filters need replacing far less often than babies need to be bathed.
You’re right. Thread drift, molestation is too large and inflammatory a topic. But my point stands…men are driven away from their nurturing instincts, and this hurts men.
Perhaps, Macht. Then again, sinks don’t need to be fixed several times a day. Men not doing child care is more of a burden to women than women not doing “fix-it” jobs around the house is a burden to men. Lawns need to be mown far less often than diapers need changing; oil filters need replacing far less often than babies need to be bathed.
Ahh…this clarifies it a little better…the movement away from male nuturance also hurts women because they don’t get the backup on the diaper changing. I understand you better now.
I don’t see why this has to be an argument though. I’ve had the exact same experience you did, and I was more irked at the stupid stereotype than guilty for my privilege. Another time a woman handed a check to me at a restaurant (in a group) and said “we need somebody good at math to figure the tip.” My math skills are atrocious.
Is fatherhood in the immediate future????
Not immediate. But on the horizon, lord willing. Y’all will be kept informed.
Hugo,
I’m not sure if how often these things occur has much relevance in this situation. All you did, afterall, was hold and rock the child.
I recently had a similar situation to you. My brother and sister-in-law recently had a baby. All I had to do was pick the kid up or hold him while sitting on the couch and the females in the family made similar comments to the comments you received. In the mean time, my brother was changing the kid’s diaper, putting him to bed, feeding him, etc. and he received nowhere near the praise that I did.
I would guess that the father of the child you held also didn’t elicit the reaction that you did when he held the child.
My point is that I think the reactions you received have to do with societal expectations of men towards children that are not their own and NOT with taking for granted what women do in raising a child. I think this is especially so with men who don’t have children - there is an idea that women are just naturally nurturing, but having a child changes a man.
Macht, see the comment from gennimcmahon above…
I’m not saying that there is no male privilege. I’m saying I’m not sure that the example you gave is an instance of it. I think something else is going on.
Lawns need to be mown far less often than diapers need changing; oil filters need replacing far less often than babies need to be bathed.
Yes, but at some point most children learn to use a toilet and bathe themselves..
I think you’re too dismissive of Macht’s point. If you believe that significant inequality has existed and perpetuated by cultural attitudes, then do you at least acknowledge (praise?) examples that reduce that inequality and help reform societal expectations? When your child finally executes a successful maneuver on the toilet, are you going to look that youngster in the eye and say, “about time, you’ve really been milking this toddler privilege thing?”
Now, granted, men aren’t toddlers and at some point you hope for a society where the expectations for gender-neutral emotions and behavoirs don’t skew to one gender or the other. But until that state, isn’t a mix of reinforcing actions that break the expectations and correcting the attitudes that sustain those expectations appropriate? If you don’t know the name of the first female Silver Star winner since WWII (who lead her Soldiers to kill 27 of the enemy during an ambush of her convoy without a single loss to her team), then I guess there’s progress…
Just curious, Hugo.. did you correct those “less than enlightened women and men?”
Dear Hugo
This may be a little bit off topic but here it goes. Your blog is (in)famous for comments against older men with younger women. I myself am 26 and my girlfriend is 16 (in my country, Chile, age of consent is 14, unless the men is over 35 (then it’s 18). My brother, who is 31, has a 22 year old girlfriend. Your blog suggests that older men in their forties and fifties make great fathers, which is probably true (although if they are too old they will never see their children bewcome adults, and that’s a huge biological risk). Because women are designed by nature (or God if you prefer) to have children between 15-35 years of age, a men in his forties or fifties would be forced to marry a woman 10 to 20 years his junior.
There seems to be a logical inconsistency, because you say that men should be happy with women their own age. By the way, I agree with you that it’s ridiculous for a men to covet a women twenty years younger, becuase obviously the woman will consider him too old for herself, but considering biological clocks and maturity levels I (and most people in my country) consider an age difference of 5 to 12 years (the men being older) not only tolerable, but the ideal in an relationship.
Sebastian
Sebastian, I know plenty of women having children at 38-44 — their first children. Sometimes it means a bit more work (usually pleasant “work), but the number of women having their first child in their forties is growing exponentially.
And I don’t have much trouble with a 50 year-old dating a 38 year-old. I have a much greater problem with a 35 year-old dating a 23 year-old. That’s for another thread.
JMK, I do praise those — of all sexes — who resist cultural stereotypes.
It’s interesting to me how culture-bound this privilege/expectation is.
In my world (which isn’t even slightly feminist and is very literalist Christian) men handle babies so normally and routinely that it’s hardly worthy of comment. It’s not at all uncommon to see teenage boys holding babies after church.
I don’t think fathers are immune from sex-based expectations around child care. I have a friend named Ben who is a married dad, and when neighbors come by and his wife is out, they will say things like, “Oh, so you’re babysitting today?” (He always corrects them. You can’t babysit your own kids!)
I also have a male coworker who brought his baby (without the mom) to work one day. Fifteen minutes later I hear the baby crying, and see the coworker walking directly away from the direction the cries are coming from. The baby was left with some women in the office for the whole visit. Nobody seemed to think it strange that the dad wouldn’t know how, or wouldn’t choose, to comfort or care for his own kid. (Think how strange the same behavior from a mom would seem.)
Seems we’re starting to have a very clear disconnect between men and women on this thread… men denying the privilege, women acknowledging it… not surprising.
Is it possible that societies have developed ways to pat men on the back for taking an interest in their children because the father’s biological bond to the child is weaker? The mother knows for sure that the child is hers, and was physically connected to it for nine months (or longer, if breastfeeding). Nowadays we prop up fatherhood by praising men for nurturing babies, whereas in the past we might have done it through the concept of “family honor”. This is not to dispute the male-privilege observation, just to suggest that other factors may also be at work.
Two things:
Why are we referring to biological realities (the last part about men being able to reproduce at an older age) as male privilege? That’s biological, not cultural. Let’s deal with the reality and move on. Or am I missing something? Don’t get me wrong, this is certainly an advantage for men, but it’s not a privilege unless you consider that God is the one granting it (and if so, what are the reasons?). This is not a societal or cultural privilege, as seems to be implied here.
Second, I’m a relatively new father myself (15 mo. old) and am completely in love with my son and will do anything for him. I change diapers, calm him when he’s crying, bathe him, wake up with him, spend time alone with him while my wife goes out, etc. Basically everything I feel a good father should do. They warn you, though, when you take childbirth classes, that falling in love with your baby is not a given for all parents. Sometimes this takes more time than others. Sometimes it might not ever happen. When it does happen, though, cultural stereotypes become meaningless. The smelliest diaper or the longest early-morning crying session become something you deal with willingly out of gratitude for the wonderful things your child has brought into your life. This kind of love is what we should be encouraging in all parents and, if it were to be universal (as it should), this debate about men’s parenting roles would be moot.
Finally, in the new-parent circles I run with (my wife and I know 15 - 20 other new-parent-couples through various groups) the male stereotypes we’re dealing with here don’t hold up. Not even close. This begs the question do the people referred to in the post currently have young children? Are they even parents themselves? If you’ve never had children, you can’t know how they change your life or what’s right to expect from mothers and fathers. If we’re dealing with people from previous generations, of course expectations will differ from what this generation has been raised with.
Seriously - when my husband and I had our son, we were 19 and 20. Guess who got constant scrutiny for daring to suggest that they might be a capable parent, and who got giant heaps of praise for simply not running away???
It was one of the biggest strains on our marriage for a few years. Because of the way others treated it, he felt like I OWED him for not being an asshole. Thank god he finally woke up one day (after he got fired and I went to a full-time job and all that praise dried up and turned to accusations of incompetence) because as much as I feel that honoring commitments is important, I had begun consulting with an attorney about the possibility of a divorce. I simply couldn’t continue to live with someone who felt that I owed 110% of my life to his munificence. I needed to be appreciated at least a little bit.
And that, my dears, is how this is a male priveledge. Because it puts women into a catch-22. If the guy stays, you owe him EVERYTHING and don’t have the right to complain. If he does even a little bit beyond that, you owe him even more. And if he leaves, well, that was your fault for not picking a good one.
When I had small children (over 15 years ago now - wow, how time flies) my husband was regarded as superman by the village we lived in for being a stay-at-home dad while I worked full-time. I was regarded as an un-caring, overly ambitious career woman. Oddly six months previously when I was at home and he hadn’t been laid off yet I wasn’t superwoman and he was just a normal dad. Strange.
Now, we’re divorced and I moved away. I work from home full-time (teenagers need keeping an eye on) for a high tech company and I am still seen as an un-caring, overly ambitious career woman (damm that need to pay for a roof over their heads and save for their college fees and oh I don’t know, feed and clothe them) and my ex-husband is still seen as a fantastic dad because he sees his kids once a year - if I arrange for them to stay with my relatives because he won’t have the kids overnight (he ‘can’t manage’ more often) - and talks to them on the phone every month or so - if they ring him. And no, he doesn’t pay child support.
Sometimes the bar for being a good parent is still set waaaay lower for men.
On the other hand, in the working class area where I live I often see young men out with their babies and kids with no women in sight. Just taking the kids to the park (or the betting shop - it’s that kind of area) or generally running errands. It’s completely unremarkable. I *never* saw that 15 years ago. Maybe the expectations for them will be higher.
Amazing… the gender difference continues. I’m not a parent, but I notice that the parents who are weighing in here are fairly clear-cut in their differences based on their own gender.
I’m glad to read all of these stories about male nurturing becoming more and more unremarkable in society — when I was being raised by a SAHD back in the 70s & 80s, it was just one more thing for the kids to tease me about.
But as far as women being “naturally more nurturing” than men, that’s never held much water for me. My dog seems too needy half of the time, to me.
magikmama:
right back at you girlfriend. Same story in my case, teenage parents, he was a hero for parenting, I was suspect for doing the same thing. And yes, he felt I owed him, that he’d done his bit by staying.
Hugo:
my boyfriend, who has been parenting my sons with me for over a decade, gets furious when people praise him for doing stuff with the boys that is frankly just normal parenting (cooking dinner, making them tidy their rooms etc etc etc). The folks who do this usually aren’t aware he’s not their biological dad, it’s a ‘wow you do that so well, what with you being male and all’, not a ‘wow you do that so well, what with you being a step-dad and all’.
He regards it as a back-handed insult and I agree with him. My sons regard people who make comments like that as being slightly retarded.
Hugo, I’d be very curious to hear about your ideal world WRT parenting. How do parents deal with work issues and division of responsibilies? Do gender-based parenting roles exist and, if so, in what form? Should one parent stay at home full time? If so, how do you decide which one? I’m not trying to attack you by any means, just curious to hear your thoughts.
Well, if one partner is giving birth to a child (as opposed to adoption), then that partner is likely to be the primary care giver in the immediate aftermath of birth.
I don’t know that there is one ideal rubric for how two-parent families ought to share their duties. Different inclinations, different financial thresholds — these will have a huge impact. What’s clear to me is that something needs to be worked out where each party in the relationship feels as if he or she is contributing equally, and each partner feels that the other is doing his or her “share.” There are a wide variety of ways of getting to that goal.
I’d also opine that a child needs time with both parents when they have two in the same home. And the SAHP needs some time away from the child too, for their own sanity.
As I said, I’m not denying it (I agree, for example, that when a father goes to a daycare to watch his kids for 30 minutes and gets all kinds of praise, that this is male privilege). I just think the reactions you experienced are something else.
This is pretty much my experience, too.
“They weren’t praising Hugo for having come so far, they were praising a man they only knew slightly for demonstrating a basic level of competence with small children. And that struck me as profound male privilege.”
That’s odd, because it strikes me as a blatant backhanded compliment. People have a horrible stereotype that men are incapable of (or unwilling to) hold a child that they complimented you when you did it. This is like being complimented for tying your own shoes.
It’s unfair to women because they’re not given credit for the work they do and the skills they have — like being told it’s not a big deal that you just cooked such a great meal because, after all, you’re part Italian. And it’s insulting to men, reflected in the SAHDads who get asked all sorts of rude questions when taking their children to the playground, men in custody battles, etc. — to be told that you simply aren’t equipped to handle raising your own children. When people describe something as “men’s work” or as “women’s work,” it screws over everyone.
“Seems we’re starting to have a very clear disconnect between men and women on this thread… men denying the privilege, women acknowledging it… not surprising.”
That’s odd, because that’s not the vibe I got from posts by Mermade and Macht.
Quoting Hugo:
“I’d also opine that a child needs time with both parents when they have two in the same home.”
I agree completely, but would add that this should be true at all times unless one parent proves to be a destructive influence. I also completely agree about equal division of responsibilities. Thanks for your comments.
What disconnect? Looks like to me the men and women here are both denying their own privilage and claiming the other has it. Gee, I guess we all do have something in common after all.
Just this evening I made dinner for guests, and the very same deal - strokes all around for how good it was, what a good job I’d done, etc. Nice and all, but I had just read this post today and had to wonder if my wife would have gotten the same comments. I think not. Thanks for bringing it to the forefront of my attention. Our first child is due next month - I’m certainly going to try to stay alert to the childcare feedback we get.
Couple other thoughts:
- Privilege is not symmetrical. To quote my pithier younger brother, “you don’t get to ignore thousands of years of male domination just because it wasn’t your idea.”
- Yes, privilege hurts the privileged too. But it gets a little old (and a little predictable) how men so frequently try to bring that up right at the beginning of the conversation. Hey, look at me, this is all supposed to be about me!
If the story changed from you and a baby into a story about a woman and, say, fixing the sink, people would ooh and aah over her mechanical abilities, too.
I’ve never had a bunch of men ooh and aah over me for fixing a sink, pumping gas, mowing a lawn, driving a big truck, etc. etc.
It is an insult when men are told they are ‘babysitting’ their own kids, or ‘helping’ by doing parenting tasks. It’s meant to be a compliment when Hugo was told what a great dad he would be purely for holding a baby.
I get a lot of “wow, you’re so lucky!” and similar props about how great it is that my husband is the SAHP, allowing me to work ridiculous hours. My male colleagues’ wives get sympathy about the long hours, but nobody regards them as making a Heroic and Noble Sacrifice.
You know that a lot of this is cultural, right? Where I grew up (in the Middle East) most men are pretty comfortable with infants, and much more affectionate with kids in general than is the case here. What’s interesting is that the idea that women are supposed to be naturally good with babies seems to be universal, but the expectations for men vary.
Men do get pats for things that would simply be expected from women. Question - how do you handle the pats? Do you say anything? Does it make you uncomfortable, or just quietly amused? I’m of two minds about the pats, because although it is sexist to a certain degree there’s also the fact that positive reinforcement does tend to work (classical conditioning in action).
Personally I think that some people are just naturally more comfortable with infants than others. My Dad’s pretty macho, and he’s always been great with kids. If there’s a baby around he’s the one who’ll end up cuddling it. Me, on the other hand, I love toddlers and older kids but I’m pretty disinterested in infants. I’d rather someone else hold them, to be honest, I always feel like I have no idea what to do with them. I suspect part of this is that I was surrounded by small children growing up but can only remember one case of being around an actual baby, and that was only on a handful of occasions.
Another thought…I wonder if it might be so many years of being in a semi-parental role to your students and the other kids you work with that’s made you more receptive to the idea of being a father? I would think that after years of looking at all those kids it would be natural to start to wonder what it might be like to have one of your own.
Hugo,
First of all, I’d like to thank you for your blog. I just discovered it in the past few days, and I’ve enjoyed reading it enough that I’ve added you to my blog roll.
When I was a teenager, my older bother and his family moved back into my house. They had several children the youngest being a small infant that suffered from colic. He was constantly crying, and because my brother was usually working, and because my sister-in-law had her hands full dealing with his older siblings.
I started offering to help out, and I soon discovered that there is no feeling in the world like holding a small baby. Never mind that the baby was difficult to handle, constantly fussing and crying. That didn’t matter - neither did the diaper changing and getting puked on. What overwhelmed all of that was the peace and warmth of having a sleeping baby lay on your shoulder, or the strange, heavenly look a baby gives you when you feed him.
So I’ve always loved babies, and I learned to care for them when I was young. That experience made me a much better father - the joy of this is multiplied when it is your child
It is a shame that the act of holding a baby, or caring for a baby, has become somehow a politically charged act, seen through the lens of ideology or privilege. Whether you are a man or a woman, a mother or a father, being able to hold, nurture and care for a baby is a great privilege.