Comments on: Fatherhood, age and male privilege http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/03/05/fatherhood-age-and-male-privilege/ Sat, 20 Mar 2010 11:22:02 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.3.3 By: Sweating Through Fog http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/03/05/fatherhood-age-and-male-privilege/#comment-130675 Sweating Through Fog Thu, 18 Oct 2007 21:50:59 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/03/05/fatherhood-age-and-male-privilege/#comment-130675 Hugo, First of all, I'd like to thank you for your blog. I just discovered it in the past few days, and I've enjoyed reading it enough that I've added you to my blog roll. When I was a teenager, my older bother and his family moved back into my house. They had several children the youngest being a small infant that suffered from colic. He was constantly crying, and because my brother was usually working, and because my sister-in-law had her hands full dealing with his older siblings. I started offering to help out, and I soon discovered that there is no feeling in the world like holding a small baby. Never mind that the baby was difficult to handle, constantly fussing and crying. That didn't matter - neither did the diaper changing and getting puked on. What overwhelmed all of that was the peace and warmth of having a sleeping baby lay on your shoulder, or the strange, heavenly look a baby gives you when you feed him. So I've always loved babies, and I learned to care for them when I was young. That experience made me a much better father - the joy of this is multiplied when it is your child It is a shame that the act of holding a baby, or caring for a baby, has become somehow a politically charged act, seen through the lens of ideology or privilege. Whether you are a man or a woman, a mother or a father, being able to hold, nurture and care for a baby is a great privilege. Hugo,

First of all, I’d like to thank you for your blog. I just discovered it in the past few days, and I’ve enjoyed reading it enough that I’ve added you to my blog roll.

When I was a teenager, my older bother and his family moved back into my house. They had several children the youngest being a small infant that suffered from colic. He was constantly crying, and because my brother was usually working, and because my sister-in-law had her hands full dealing with his older siblings.

I started offering to help out, and I soon discovered that there is no feeling in the world like holding a small baby. Never mind that the baby was difficult to handle, constantly fussing and crying. That didn’t matter - neither did the diaper changing and getting puked on. What overwhelmed all of that was the peace and warmth of having a sleeping baby lay on your shoulder, or the strange, heavenly look a baby gives you when you feed him.

So I’ve always loved babies, and I learned to care for them when I was young. That experience made me a much better father - the joy of this is multiplied when it is your child

It is a shame that the act of holding a baby, or caring for a baby, has become somehow a politically charged act, seen through the lens of ideology or privilege. Whether you are a man or a woman, a mother or a father, being able to hold, nurture and care for a baby is a great privilege.

]]> By: britgirlsf http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/03/05/fatherhood-age-and-male-privilege/#comment-32912 britgirlsf Fri, 09 Mar 2007 10:18:46 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/03/05/fatherhood-age-and-male-privilege/#comment-32912 You know that a lot of this is cultural, right? Where I grew up (in the Middle East) most men are pretty comfortable with infants, and much more affectionate with kids in general than is the case here. What's interesting is that the idea that women are supposed to be naturally good with babies seems to be universal, but the expectations for men vary. Men do get pats for things that would simply be expected from women. Question - how do you handle the pats? Do you say anything? Does it make you uncomfortable, or just quietly amused? I'm of two minds about the pats, because although it is sexist to a certain degree there's also the fact that positive reinforcement does tend to work (classical conditioning in action). Personally I think that some people are just naturally more comfortable with infants than others. My Dad's pretty macho, and he's always been great with kids. If there's a baby around he's the one who'll end up cuddling it. Me, on the other hand, I love toddlers and older kids but I'm pretty disinterested in infants. I'd rather someone else hold them, to be honest, I always feel like I have no idea what to do with them. I suspect part of this is that I was surrounded by small children growing up but can only remember one case of being around an actual baby, and that was only on a handful of occasions. Another thought...I wonder if it might be so many years of being in a semi-parental role to your students and the other kids you work with that's made you more receptive to the idea of being a father? I would think that after years of looking at all those kids it would be natural to start to wonder what it might be like to have one of your own. You know that a lot of this is cultural, right? Where I grew up (in the Middle East) most men are pretty comfortable with infants, and much more affectionate with kids in general than is the case here. What’s interesting is that the idea that women are supposed to be naturally good with babies seems to be universal, but the expectations for men vary.
Men do get pats for things that would simply be expected from women. Question - how do you handle the pats? Do you say anything? Does it make you uncomfortable, or just quietly amused? I’m of two minds about the pats, because although it is sexist to a certain degree there’s also the fact that positive reinforcement does tend to work (classical conditioning in action).
Personally I think that some people are just naturally more comfortable with infants than others. My Dad’s pretty macho, and he’s always been great with kids. If there’s a baby around he’s the one who’ll end up cuddling it. Me, on the other hand, I love toddlers and older kids but I’m pretty disinterested in infants. I’d rather someone else hold them, to be honest, I always feel like I have no idea what to do with them. I suspect part of this is that I was surrounded by small children growing up but can only remember one case of being around an actual baby, and that was only on a handful of occasions.
Another thought…I wonder if it might be so many years of being in a semi-parental role to your students and the other kids you work with that’s made you more receptive to the idea of being a father? I would think that after years of looking at all those kids it would be natural to start to wonder what it might be like to have one of your own.

]]> By: MeyerBros » patriarchy and me(n) http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/03/05/fatherhood-age-and-male-privilege/#comment-32807 MeyerBros » patriarchy and me(n) Thu, 08 Mar 2007 20:22:18 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/03/05/fatherhood-age-and-male-privilege/#comment-32807 [...] The gender-split commentary over on this post at Hugo Schwyzer’s got me thinking about how patriarchy hurts men (or, in gennimcmahon’s ever-so-much-more-eloquent version, “how the cultural view of men as irresponsible children whose backs hurt from the weight of following their dicks around, hovering in the air like a divining rod that’s found a ocean beneath their feet, is damaging and limiting”), and conversely how men so often love to divert conversation about patriarchy into “but women do bad things to men too!”, which is a technique for denial and minimization of male privilege. [...] […] The gender-split commentary over on this post at Hugo Schwyzer’s got me thinking about how patriarchy hurts men (or, in gennimcmahon’s ever-so-much-more-eloquent version, “how the cultural view of men as irresponsible children whose backs hurt from the weight of following their dicks around, hovering in the air like a divining rod that’s found a ocean beneath their feet, is damaging and limiting”), and conversely how men so often love to divert conversation about patriarchy into “but women do bad things to men too!”, which is a technique for denial and minimization of male privilege. […]

]]> By: MeyerBros » http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/03/05/fatherhood-age-and-male-privilege/#comment-32800 MeyerBros » Thu, 08 Mar 2007 19:51:21 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/03/05/fatherhood-age-and-male-privilege/#comment-32800 [...] The gender-split commentary over on this post at Hugo Schwyzer’s got me thinking about how patriarchy hurts men (or, in gennimcmahon’s ever-so-much-more-eloquent version, “how the cultural view of men as irresponsible children whose backs hurt from the weight of following their dicks around, hovering in the air like a divining rod that’s found a ocean beneath their feet, is damaging and limiting”), and conversely how men so often love to divert conversation about patriarchy into “but women do bad things to men too!”, which is a technique for denial and minimization of male privilege. [...] […] The gender-split commentary over on this post at Hugo Schwyzer’s got me thinking about how patriarchy hurts men (or, in gennimcmahon’s ever-so-much-more-eloquent version, “how the cultural view of men as irresponsible children whose backs hurt from the weight of following their dicks around, hovering in the air like a divining rod that’s found a ocean beneath their feet, is damaging and limiting”), and conversely how men so often love to divert conversation about patriarchy into “but women do bad things to men too!”, which is a technique for denial and minimization of male privilege. […]

]]> By: mythago http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/03/05/fatherhood-age-and-male-privilege/#comment-32718 mythago Thu, 08 Mar 2007 09:18:23 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/03/05/fatherhood-age-and-male-privilege/#comment-32718 <I>If the story changed from you and a baby into a story about a woman and, say, fixing the sink, people would ooh and aah over her mechanical abilities, too.</I> I've never had a bunch of men ooh and aah over me for fixing a sink, pumping gas, mowing a lawn, driving a big truck, etc. etc. It is an insult when men are told they are 'babysitting' their own kids, or 'helping' by doing parenting tasks. It's meant to be a compliment when Hugo was told what a great dad he would be <I>purely for holding a baby</I>. I get a lot of "wow, you're so lucky!" and similar props about how great it is that my husband is the SAHP, allowing me to work ridiculous hours. My male colleagues' wives get sympathy about the long hours, but nobody regards them as making a Heroic and Noble Sacrifice. If the story changed from you and a baby into a story about a woman and, say, fixing the sink, people would ooh and aah over her mechanical abilities, too.

I’ve never had a bunch of men ooh and aah over me for fixing a sink, pumping gas, mowing a lawn, driving a big truck, etc. etc.

It is an insult when men are told they are ‘babysitting’ their own kids, or ‘helping’ by doing parenting tasks. It’s meant to be a compliment when Hugo was told what a great dad he would be purely for holding a baby.

I get a lot of “wow, you’re so lucky!” and similar props about how great it is that my husband is the SAHP, allowing me to work ridiculous hours. My male colleagues’ wives get sympathy about the long hours, but nobody regards them as making a Heroic and Noble Sacrifice.

]]> By: Carl http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/03/05/fatherhood-age-and-male-privilege/#comment-32704 Carl Thu, 08 Mar 2007 05:18:06 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/03/05/fatherhood-age-and-male-privilege/#comment-32704 Just this evening I made dinner for guests, and the very same deal - strokes all around for how good it was, what a good job I'd done, etc. Nice and all, but I had just read this post today and had to wonder if my wife would have gotten the same comments. I think not. Thanks for bringing it to the forefront of my attention. Our first child is due next month - I'm certainly going to try to stay alert to the childcare feedback we get. Couple other thoughts: - Privilege is not symmetrical. To quote my pithier younger brother, "you don't get to ignore thousands of years of male domination just because it wasn't your idea." - Yes, privilege hurts the privileged too. But it gets a little old (and a little predictable) how men so frequently try to bring that up right at the beginning of the conversation. Hey, look at me, this is all supposed to be about me! Just this evening I made dinner for guests, and the very same deal - strokes all around for how good it was, what a good job I’d done, etc. Nice and all, but I had just read this post today and had to wonder if my wife would have gotten the same comments. I think not. Thanks for bringing it to the forefront of my attention. Our first child is due next month - I’m certainly going to try to stay alert to the childcare feedback we get.

Couple other thoughts:
- Privilege is not symmetrical. To quote my pithier younger brother, “you don’t get to ignore thousands of years of male domination just because it wasn’t your idea.”
- Yes, privilege hurts the privileged too. But it gets a little old (and a little predictable) how men so frequently try to bring that up right at the beginning of the conversation. Hey, look at me, this is all supposed to be about me!

]]> By: R. Giskard http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/03/05/fatherhood-age-and-male-privilege/#comment-32646 R. Giskard Wed, 07 Mar 2007 16:41:09 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/03/05/fatherhood-age-and-male-privilege/#comment-32646 <blockquote>Seems we’re starting to have a very clear disconnect between men and women on this thread… men denying the privilege, women acknowledging it… not surprising. </blockquote> What disconnect? Looks like to me the men and women here are both denying their own privilage and claiming the other has it. Gee, I guess we all do have something in common after all.

Seems we’re starting to have a very clear disconnect between men and women on this thread… men denying the privilege, women acknowledging it… not surprising.

What disconnect? Looks like to me the men and women here are both denying their own privilage and claiming the other has it. Gee, I guess we all do have something in common after all.

]]> By: Matt http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/03/05/fatherhood-age-and-male-privilege/#comment-32588 Matt Wed, 07 Mar 2007 00:42:31 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/03/05/fatherhood-age-and-male-privilege/#comment-32588 Quoting Hugo: "I’d also opine that a child needs time with both parents when they have two in the same home." I agree completely, but would add that this should be true at all times unless one parent proves to be a destructive influence. I also completely agree about equal division of responsibilities. Thanks for your comments. Quoting Hugo:

“I’d also opine that a child needs time with both parents when they have two in the same home.”

I agree completely, but would add that this should be true at all times unless one parent proves to be a destructive influence. I also completely agree about equal division of responsibilities. Thanks for your comments.

]]> By: bmmg39 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/03/05/fatherhood-age-and-male-privilege/#comment-32587 bmmg39 Wed, 07 Mar 2007 00:37:51 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/03/05/fatherhood-age-and-male-privilege/#comment-32587 "They weren’t praising Hugo for having come so far, they were praising a man they only knew slightly for demonstrating a basic level of competence with small children. And that struck me as profound male privilege." That's odd, because it strikes me as a blatant backhanded compliment. People have a horrible stereotype that men are incapable of (or unwilling to) hold a child that they complimented you when you did it. This is like being complimented for tying your own shoes. It's unfair to women because they're not given credit for the work they do and the skills they have -- like being told it's not a big deal that you just cooked such a great meal because, after all, you're part Italian. And it's insulting to men, reflected in the SAHDads who get asked all sorts of rude questions when taking their children to the playground, men in custody battles, etc. -- to be told that you simply aren't equipped to handle raising your own children. When people describe something as "men's work" or as "women's work," it screws over everyone. "Seems we’re starting to have a very clear disconnect between men and women on this thread… men denying the privilege, women acknowledging it… not surprising." That's odd, because that's not the vibe I got from posts by Mermade and Macht. “They weren’t praising Hugo for having come so far, they were praising a man they only knew slightly for demonstrating a basic level of competence with small children. And that struck me as profound male privilege.”

That’s odd, because it strikes me as a blatant backhanded compliment. People have a horrible stereotype that men are incapable of (or unwilling to) hold a child that they complimented you when you did it. This is like being complimented for tying your own shoes.

It’s unfair to women because they’re not given credit for the work they do and the skills they have — like being told it’s not a big deal that you just cooked such a great meal because, after all, you’re part Italian. And it’s insulting to men, reflected in the SAHDads who get asked all sorts of rude questions when taking their children to the playground, men in custody battles, etc. — to be told that you simply aren’t equipped to handle raising your own children. When people describe something as “men’s work” or as “women’s work,” it screws over everyone.

“Seems we’re starting to have a very clear disconnect between men and women on this thread… men denying the privilege, women acknowledging it… not surprising.”

That’s odd, because that’s not the vibe I got from posts by Mermade and Macht.

]]> By: macht http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/03/05/fatherhood-age-and-male-privilege/#comment-32567 macht Tue, 06 Mar 2007 21:57:56 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/03/05/fatherhood-age-and-male-privilege/#comment-32567 <blockquote>Seems we’re starting to have a very clear disconnect between men and women on this thread… men denying the privilege, women acknowledging it… not surprising.</blockquote> As I said, I'm not denying it (I agree, for example, that when a father goes to a daycare to watch his kids for 30 minutes and gets all kinds of praise, that this is male privilege). I just think the reactions you experienced are something else. <blockquote>In my world (which isn’t even slightly feminist and is very literalist Christian) men handle babies so normally and routinely that it’s hardly worthy of comment. It’s not at all uncommon to see teenage boys holding babies after church.</blockquote> This is pretty much my experience, too.

Seems we’re starting to have a very clear disconnect between men and women on this thread… men denying the privilege, women acknowledging it… not surprising.

As I said, I’m not denying it (I agree, for example, that when a father goes to a daycare to watch his kids for 30 minutes and gets all kinds of praise, that this is male privilege). I just think the reactions you experienced are something else.

In my world (which isn’t even slightly feminist and is very literalist Christian) men handle babies so normally and routinely that it’s hardly worthy of comment. It’s not at all uncommon to see teenage boys holding babies after church.

This is pretty much my experience, too.

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