Comments on: Fourteen Marthas, not one Mary: a retreat report and a long meditation on girls, pressure, parents, and people-pleasing http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/03/12/fourteen-marthas-not-one-mary-a-retreat-report-and-a-long-meditation-on-girls-pressure-parents-and-people-pleasing/ Tue, 07 Oct 2008 06:43:27 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.3.3 By: carnival of eating disorders #4 » change therapy - isabella mori http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/03/12/fourteen-marthas-not-one-mary-a-retreat-report-and-a-long-meditation-on-girls-pressure-parents-and-people-pleasing/#comment-40249 carnival of eating disorders #4 » change therapy - isabella mori Sun, 01 Apr 2007 02:50:13 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/03/12/fourteen-marthas-not-one-mary-a-retreat-report-and-a-long-meditation-on-girls-pressure-parents-and-people-pleasing/#comment-40249 [...] this is similar to what hugo schwyzer, a college professor who has dealt with eating disorders himself, found while working with a group of young women. at fourteen marthas, not one mary, he writes about the pressure that these young women experience, which often results in/coincides with eating disorders: the desperate “people-pleasing” of so many of these young women troubles me. many of them acknowledge carrying the double burden familiar to so many modern women: these girls know that they are expected to live up to traditional feminine standards of behaviour and looks, at least much of the time. (three girls talked quietly about their struggles with disordered eating and body self-loathing.) but in addition to the cultural expectation to be bright-eyed, cheerful, virginal and pleasing, they also feel pressured to be intellectually, athletically, and professionally successful. they all volunteer (often as part of school-mandated community service). their parents have told them all their lives that they can “be anything they want to be”, which sounds great — until the girls are forced to excel at virtually everything they do in every facet of their lives so as “not to miss out” on any opportunity to succeed. the superwomen complex is alive and well in girls so young that some were born after bill clinton became president! that breaks my heart. [...] […] this is similar to what hugo schwyzer, a college professor who has dealt with eating disorders himself, found while working with a group of young women. at fourteen marthas, not one mary, he writes about the pressure that these young women experience, which often results in/coincides with eating disorders: the desperate “people-pleasing” of so many of these young women troubles me. many of them acknowledge carrying the double burden familiar to so many modern women: these girls know that they are expected to live up to traditional feminine standards of behaviour and looks, at least much of the time. (three girls talked quietly about their struggles with disordered eating and body self-loathing.) but in addition to the cultural expectation to be bright-eyed, cheerful, virginal and pleasing, they also feel pressured to be intellectually, athletically, and professionally successful. they all volunteer (often as part of school-mandated community service). their parents have told them all their lives that they can “be anything they want to be”, which sounds great — until the girls are forced to excel at virtually everything they do in every facet of their lives so as “not to miss out” on any opportunity to succeed. the superwomen complex is alive and well in girls so young that some were born after bill clinton became president! that breaks my heart. […]

]]> By: SamChevre http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/03/12/fourteen-marthas-not-one-mary-a-retreat-report-and-a-long-meditation-on-girls-pressure-parents-and-people-pleasing/#comment-33538 SamChevre Fri, 16 Mar 2007 17:46:32 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/03/12/fourteen-marthas-not-one-mary-a-retreat-report-and-a-long-meditation-on-girls-pressure-parents-and-people-pleasing/#comment-33538 I think the opportunity=obligation equation has been true, in most times and places, for both men and women. As opportunities expanded, the equation has been preserved--and women, whose opportunities have expanded more, have seen their obligations grow in proportion. But that may be the one MRA point that I actually, whole-heartedly, agree with: in most of history, the opportunites that early feminists saw men as having and women as needing were perceived primarily as musts, not mays. I think the opportunity=obligation equation has been true, in most times and places, for both men and women. As opportunities expanded, the equation has been preserved–and women, whose opportunities have expanded more, have seen their obligations grow in proportion.

But that may be the one MRA point that I actually, whole-heartedly, agree with: in most of history, the opportunites that early feminists saw men as having and women as needing were perceived primarily as musts, not mays.

]]> By: Hugo Schwyzer http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/03/12/fourteen-marthas-not-one-mary-a-retreat-report-and-a-long-meditation-on-girls-pressure-parents-and-people-pleasing/#comment-33377 Hugo Schwyzer Thu, 15 Mar 2007 18:57:02 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/03/12/fourteen-marthas-not-one-mary-a-retreat-report-and-a-long-meditation-on-girls-pressure-parents-and-people-pleasing/#comment-33377 Jen, the starting point for feminist doctrine in Scripture is Galatians 3:28. Read Ephesians 5:21 as the controlling purpose for 5:22 and ff; read 1 Corinthians 7:4 and you see the radical egalitarianism of authentic Christianity. For starters. The men's rights movement, Jen, wants "choice for men" -- the right of fathers to walk away from children they help conceive. That's one of the most basic tenets of all the national men's rights organizations. (Promise Keepers is NOT a men's rights organization, it falls into a different category). The MRM is decidedly secular. Abortion is not the topic in this thread, and I won't let it be hijacked. I am praying for you, Jen; confident that you are praying for me. Pray for the many lambs of His I am feeding. Peace, sister. Jen, the starting point for feminist doctrine in Scripture is Galatians 3:28. Read Ephesians 5:21 as the controlling purpose for 5:22 and ff; read 1 Corinthians 7:4 and you see the radical egalitarianism of authentic Christianity. For starters.

The men’s rights movement, Jen, wants “choice for men” — the right of fathers to walk away from children they help conceive. That’s one of the most basic tenets of all the national men’s rights organizations. (Promise Keepers is NOT a men’s rights organization, it falls into a different category). The MRM is decidedly secular.

Abortion is not the topic in this thread, and I won’t let it be hijacked.

I am praying for you, Jen; confident that you are praying for me. Pray for the many lambs of His I am feeding.

Peace, sister.

]]> By: JenK http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/03/12/fourteen-marthas-not-one-mary-a-retreat-report-and-a-long-meditation-on-girls-pressure-parents-and-people-pleasing/#comment-33373 JenK Thu, 15 Mar 2007 18:48:12 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/03/12/fourteen-marthas-not-one-mary-a-retreat-report-and-a-long-meditation-on-girls-pressure-parents-and-people-pleasing/#comment-33373 "The fact that my understanding of sexual morality is broader than that of most evangelicals doesn’t mean it’s so wide open the wind blows through." It looks to me like you are reinterpreting the Bible and assuming that means you have a broader, ie better, understanding of it. Your interpretations already are causing you positions from Christian organizations which are loose with interpretations to begin with. It is pretty presumptuous of you to assume you know more than traditional Christians because you have a different view. Sometimes more is less, to turn an old cliche around. How can you seriously claim to be pro-choice AND Christian. You cannot tell me you think Jesus would approve of ripping a 2 month old baby out of the womb? I just do not get it. Where is your support for feminist doctorine in the Bible? As I said, the Bible very much teaches that both men and women are equally valuable in the eyes of God. It says nothing else congruent to radical feminism. Actually the MRM is closer to the teachings of the Bible, by valuing fatherhood and demanding accountability of both men AND women. Please do not tell me to go read more of your writing, I do not have time to sift through hundreds of posts. “The fact that my understanding of sexual morality is broader than that of most evangelicals doesn’t mean it’s so wide open the wind blows through.”

It looks to me like you are reinterpreting the Bible and assuming that means you have a broader, ie better, understanding of it. Your interpretations already are causing you positions from Christian organizations which are loose with interpretations to begin with. It is pretty presumptuous of you to assume you know more than traditional Christians because you have a different view. Sometimes more is less, to turn an old cliche around.

How can you seriously claim to be pro-choice AND Christian. You cannot tell me you think Jesus would approve of ripping a 2 month old baby out of the womb? I just do not get it. Where is your support for feminist doctorine in the Bible?

As I said, the Bible very much teaches that both men and women are equally valuable in the eyes of God. It says nothing else congruent to radical feminism. Actually the MRM is closer to the teachings of the Bible, by valuing fatherhood and demanding accountability of both men AND women.

Please do not tell me to go read more of your writing, I do not have time to sift through hundreds of posts.

]]> By: Older http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/03/12/fourteen-marthas-not-one-mary-a-retreat-report-and-a-long-meditation-on-girls-pressure-parents-and-people-pleasing/#comment-33344 Older Thu, 15 Mar 2007 05:26:51 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/03/12/fourteen-marthas-not-one-mary-a-retreat-report-and-a-long-meditation-on-girls-pressure-parents-and-people-pleasing/#comment-33344 Little light said "the word I hated hearing most was 'potential'." I sure hated that word. I'm pretty sure I'm older than others here. I was in the "potential" pool well over fifty years ago. It caused me so much discomfort that I basically opted out. "Tuned in and dropped out" as people said a while later. I've lived quite a good life, but I know I was a huge disappointment to my family. Blue collar all the way. It's been fine. No one will ever be able to google my real accomplishments, but I'm satisfied with them, and my satisfaction began when I determined not to let my elders set my agenda. Little light said “the word I hated hearing most was ‘potential’.”

I sure hated that word. I’m pretty sure I’m older than others here. I was in the “potential” pool well over fifty years ago. It caused me so much discomfort that I basically opted out. “Tuned in and dropped out” as people said a while later. I’ve lived quite a good life, but I know I was a huge disappointment to my family. Blue collar all the way.

It’s been fine. No one will ever be able to google my real accomplishments, but I’m satisfied with them, and my satisfaction began when I determined not to let my elders set my agenda.

]]> By: Hugo Schwyzer http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/03/12/fourteen-marthas-not-one-mary-a-retreat-report-and-a-long-meditation-on-girls-pressure-parents-and-people-pleasing/#comment-33327 Hugo Schwyzer Wed, 14 Mar 2007 20:16:23 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/03/12/fourteen-marthas-not-one-mary-a-retreat-report-and-a-long-meditation-on-girls-pressure-parents-and-people-pleasing/#comment-33327 <em>I do not see what you do in the Bible. </em> Evidently. Read through the archives on Christianity and feminism on my sidebar, and you'll have some idea, Jenk, where I'm comin' from. It's folks like you -- and I say this gently and without rancor -- who remind me that the work I'm doing with young people in Christian formation is so important. Thanks, O. Lee and Anna. I do not see what you do in the Bible.

Evidently. Read through the archives on Christianity and feminism on my sidebar, and you’ll have some idea, Jenk, where I’m comin’ from. It’s folks like you — and I say this gently and without rancor — who remind me that the work I’m doing with young people in Christian formation is so important.

Thanks, O. Lee and Anna.

]]> By: Jenk http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/03/12/fourteen-marthas-not-one-mary-a-retreat-report-and-a-long-meditation-on-girls-pressure-parents-and-people-pleasing/#comment-33326 Jenk Wed, 14 Mar 2007 20:10:23 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/03/12/fourteen-marthas-not-one-mary-a-retreat-report-and-a-long-meditation-on-girls-pressure-parents-and-people-pleasing/#comment-33326 Interesting article. I find it fascinating that you feel the Bible and feminism is telling these girls: "True feminism and true Christian faith are absolutely congruent in their mutual opposition to the idea that young women ought to live up to an ever-more demanding set of duties and commitments. " Feminism is what pushed girls to feel they HAD to do it all. Pre-feminism saw men and women with complimentary roles. Men took the obligations for many things such as careers, protection, leadership, and women took the obligations of home and hearth. When feminism swore it did not need men; "A woman needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle", it chose for generations of women to be forced to tackle both male and female roles. These girls are a product of feminism. This is what every feminist mother dreamt of for her daughters. The grass was apparently greener. I do not consider myself a feminist, much in part becuase what feminism stands for is directly contradictory to the Bible. Not that men and women are equal: the Bible supports this yet feminism does not IMO. The Bible stands for clearly defined roles for men and women, and tells women (and men) that priorities are to be 1) God 2) husband/wife 3) children . Feminism tells you your priorities should be 1) Yourself 2) Career 3) Family, IF you want one. or friends if you don't. I do not see what you do in the Bible. Interesting article. I find it fascinating that you feel the Bible and feminism is telling these girls:

“True feminism and true Christian faith are absolutely congruent in their mutual opposition to the idea that young women ought to live up to an ever-more demanding set of duties and commitments. ”

Feminism is what pushed girls to feel they HAD to do it all. Pre-feminism saw men and women with complimentary roles. Men took the obligations for many things such as careers, protection, leadership, and women took the obligations of home and hearth. When feminism swore it did not need men; “A woman needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle”, it chose for generations of women to be forced to tackle both male and female roles. These girls are a product of feminism. This is what every feminist mother dreamt of for her daughters. The grass was apparently greener.

I do not consider myself a feminist, much in part becuase what feminism stands for is directly contradictory to the Bible. Not that men and women are equal: the Bible supports this yet feminism does not IMO. The Bible stands for clearly defined roles for men and women, and tells women (and men) that priorities are to be 1) God 2) husband/wife 3) children . Feminism tells you your priorities should be 1) Yourself 2) Career 3) Family, IF you want one. or friends if you don’t.

I do not see what you do in the Bible.

]]> By: Original Lee http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/03/12/fourteen-marthas-not-one-mary-a-retreat-report-and-a-long-meditation-on-girls-pressure-parents-and-people-pleasing/#comment-33324 Original Lee Wed, 14 Mar 2007 20:00:54 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/03/12/fourteen-marthas-not-one-mary-a-retreat-report-and-a-long-meditation-on-girls-pressure-parents-and-people-pleasing/#comment-33324 Good post, Hugo. I hope my kids don't think I'm expecting them to be perfect! Good post, Hugo. I hope my kids don’t think I’m expecting them to be perfect!

]]> By: Anna http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/03/12/fourteen-marthas-not-one-mary-a-retreat-report-and-a-long-meditation-on-girls-pressure-parents-and-people-pleasing/#comment-33323 Anna Wed, 14 Mar 2007 19:59:09 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/03/12/fourteen-marthas-not-one-mary-a-retreat-report-and-a-long-meditation-on-girls-pressure-parents-and-people-pleasing/#comment-33323 Hi Hugo, just wanted to say this was a really insightful, very well written, spot on piece. I too relate to the Marthas you describe - I am happy that you are there for these girls to help them find perspective. Hi Hugo,
just wanted to say this was a really insightful, very well written, spot on piece. I too relate to the Marthas you describe - I am happy that you are there for these girls to help them find perspective.

]]> By: Barbara P http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/03/12/fourteen-marthas-not-one-mary-a-retreat-report-and-a-long-meditation-on-girls-pressure-parents-and-people-pleasing/#comment-33314 Barbara P Wed, 14 Mar 2007 16:47:49 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/03/12/fourteen-marthas-not-one-mary-a-retreat-report-and-a-long-meditation-on-girls-pressure-parents-and-people-pleasing/#comment-33314 The Bible passage that jumps out for me here is: "Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they toil not, neither do they spin yet I say to you that not even Solomon in all his glory clothed himself like one of these." The Bible passage that jumps out for me here is:

“Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they toil not, neither do they spin yet I say to you that not even Solomon in all his glory clothed himself like one of these.”

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