As has been widely publicized, the Smoking Gun website has acquired a disturbing short play by Cho Seung-Hui, the Virginia Tech shooter. It’s not for the faint of heart, and I admit I scanned it quickly, not wanting to linger on the ugly details. It deals with pedophilia, extreme violence, and a boy’s rage at his step-father.
What grabbed me was the language on the final page, where the last stage direction requires the stepfather to kill his stepson. Cho wrote:
Out of sheer desecrated hurt and anger, Richard lifts his large arms and swings a deadly blow at the thirteen year-old boy. Finis.
What jumps out at me is the phrase “sheer desecrated hurt and anger.” Cho was an English major, and his writing was competent, if bizarre. I assume he knew what “desecrated” meant: to violate what is sacred. And at the risk of spending far too much time parsing the words of a madman, I’m struck by what followed: “hurt and anger.” He got them in the right order; as any therapist will tell ya, anger is one emotion that is never primary. It’s a secondary response to fear or hurt, though it often is the first emotion that a wounded person displays.
I posted yesterday (and clearly, controversially) about the potential for anti-Asian backlash in the aftermath of Cho’s deadly rampage. But what is striking me today is the depth of the pain, the depth of the rage, that emerges in Cho’s work. Many men’s rights activists (MRAs) write a great deal about men and anger. (I am in no way implying that your average MRA is a potential mass murderer.) Indeed, much of the discourse about male rage is produced by men who point to feminism as the chief cause of that anger. MRAs often argue that male rage is a product of a legal system slanted against men (particularly husbands and fathers), and a business and political elite whom they see as more interested in protecting and advancing the interests of women than of men. The MRAs often argue that the unreasonable, excessive, and contradictory expectations of women are a source of justifiable male anger.
Obviously, the feminist community is concerned primarily with protecting women from angry, violent men. Debating the roots of male rage is something of a luxury compared to protecting women from rape and assault and murder. But it’s vital that pro-feminist men talk openly about what more we can do to reach young men whose pain and hurt is so extreme that it is dangerously close to erupting into violence.
The rage within Cho Seung-Hui that emerged at others began and ended with a rage against himself. The papers report today that he was hospitalized in 2005; he was considered suicidal. Monday’s rampage ended with Cho taking his own life. His pain and self-loathing were at the heart of what he did. I don’t mean to excuse these awful murders, but I do think that we can balance profound horror at what Cho did on Monday with profound regret that not enough was done to reach him in his isolation and his pain. And we can recognize that there are others like him, overwhelmingly male, who need our immediate and enduring care and attention.
After the Amish shooting in October, I put up this post in which I quoted Pat McGann of Men Can Stop Rape. What he wrote then is worth putting up once more:
I knew that after tragic incidents like those named earlier, the media wants to present the public with answers, and it seemed probable that none of the answers would clearly identify traditional masculinity as a culprit. But I didn’t want to just stay on the surface of manhood; I wanted to burrow underneath to get at its muscle and bone. I wanted to write about how men’s pain gets transformed into men’s anger, because it seemed to me that some deep-seated anguish was underlying all the bullets, the ropes, the knives. We men typically aren’t socialized to handle pain in healthy, constructive ways. Instead we’re taught to “suck it up” and “get over it,” which might be useful strategies some of the time but not as everyday practices – especially when it comes to violence.
In many of the violent incidents I was struck by the number of men who committed suicide. At the end of the Pennsylvania and Colorado school shootings both men shot themselves…. And supposedly the Wisconsin shooting took place because the student had been bullied by students and neither teachers nor the principal would act to stop it. In each of these instances, it seems likely to me that some deep-seated, chronic despondency was present and fueled by anger, the likely source of the violence. I don’t mean to suggest that the root cause of men’s violence is always despair and sadness; everyone can probably clearly point to some examples of brutal acts by men that could be traced back to something other than emotional anguish, but to overlook despondency as a possible cause some of the time misses a revolutionary opportunity.
Yes, revolutionary. I’m making what could be construed as an inflated claim, but I don’t think so: men dealing with their pain in responsible, constructive, and healthy ways would make the world shudder and shake, shifting the foundations of our realities. Once the dust settled, we would be in a better place, a less violent place.
Is encouraging men to talk about their pain an automatic prophylaxis against violence? Probably not. But adult men need to be reaching out to the silent, withdrawn, brooding Cho Seung-Huis of the world. We have to do more to push through the barriers and the walls. We have to find ways — through mentoring, teaching, volunteering — to engage the very sort of young men who look least interested in being engaged by us. Would a quick hug or a teddy bear have prevented this tragedy in Virginia? Of course not. Could a carefully, patiently cultivated relationship, initiated by a mentor who was not dissuaded by an impassive or hostile facade, have perhaps changed the course of Cho Seung-Hui’s life? Yes.
Real men’s work is about reaching young men where they are. Not just the ones who are obviously willing to be reached, either. Real men’s work — especially in school settings — is about initiating relationship with the shy, the bookish, the brooding and the hostile. It is frustrating, difficult, painful, and very tiring work. It is also joyous, especially when the breakthroughs happen. I’ve been working to do this for many years now, with a wide variety of young men. And it may be the most important thing I do.
Sheer desecrated hurt and anger. The hurt emerged two years ago; undealt with, unresolved, it exploded into anger on Monday. The blame lies chiefly with Cho himself; in the end, like any adult, he was more a volunteer than a victim. But along the way, it seems clear that his obvious hurt and pain wasn’t addressed, at least not sufficiently, until it erupted so catastrophically just over 48 hours ago.
Once again, you and your pro-feminist male allies fall far short because of your ideological biases.
Both you and McGann recognize men’s pain and talk about the anger that stems from it, wanting to help men “deal with their anger in constructive ways,” etc. Surely this is a laudable goal, but IMO a better approach would be to help men avoid experiencing the pain in the first place, and hence avoid the anger derived from it. Get rid of the pain and there would be no need for men to “learn to deal with it in constructive ways.” However, this means being willing to engage in an honest, candid discussion with legitimate stakeholders re. how, among other things, feminist-driven rhetoric, policies, legislation, etc., have marginalized and in some cases criminalized boys and men - and masculinity in general - and thus contributed significantly to their pain and the anger that flows from it. Instead, what you, McGann, et al., suggest is akin to going back in time and suggesting that blacks in the 1950s learn to “deal with their anger (due to Jim Crow, etc.) in constructive ways.”
Unless and until our society acquires the courage to go against the powerful feminist lobby and demand an examination re. how feminist-driven policies and customs contribute to men’s marginalization and pain, we’ll continue to see these types of anger-based incidents. And the best we’ll ever be able to do is reel-back in horror at the scenes.
There’s a better way - all it takes is the courage to admit that much of men’s anger is based in pain that has been inflicted on them by others, people who at present enjoy political favor in our society. This has to change. We did it with African Americans, we did it with girls and women - it’s time now to do it with boys and men.
An extended quote:
I applaud you for recognizing the importance of mentoring. But I have had rule number one working with vulnerable people drilled into me, to the profit of my soul’s (and body’s) health. Don’t promise what you don’t know you can perform. I have read this blog for a while now, and I get a sense that the passage I quoted reflects your values, or perhaps your instincts, or even maybe your preferences fairly well. I can’t help but see a contradiction between your stated preference for working with “girls and well-behaved boys” and your acknowledgment of the importance of mentoring troubled kids.
I’ll quote another one:
Forgive my cynicism about the suggestion that we can fix everything, and therefore need to accept nothing. But it seems to me that embarking on mentoring troubled young men with a conviction like the following (from the same post) has the potential to lead to a problem:
To pick an example (not quite at random), people with Asperger’s have specific limits they do not control. What do you plan to do with young people in serious distress when your line about a “seductive lie” runs up against hard biological or neurological limits?
John, I am quite clear I am no therapist. I know that many of the kids I work with will end up having to be referred elsewhere, to those who can offer them a level of care that I cannot. I know that there is only so much any mentor can do.
Surely this is a laudable goal, but IMO a better approach would be to help men avoid experiencing the pain in the first place, and hence avoid the anger derived from it.
Given that many of the solutions offered by anti-feminists to help men avoid experiencing pain involve inflicting similar-if-not-worse pain on women, this is not nearly as simple a proposition as you make it out to be.
Given that many of the solutions offered by anti-feminists to help men avoid experiencing pain involve inflicting similar-if-not-worse pain on women, this is not nearly as simple a proposition as you make it out to be.
Yeah, that whole “equality before the law” thing is just ponderous.
Yeah, I should have been more clear: To suggest that any sort of inconvenience or even full-fledged disadvantages men are currently experiencing comes within a country light-year of what women (and, for that matter, African-Americans) have and are still going through is pretty ludicrous and comes with a high burden of proof, one that Mr. Bad hasn’t even tried to meet.
We’ve got a long way to go before we reach “equality before the law” and today’s Supreme Court decision, to take the most recent example, is a fine illustration.
Auguste, perhaps you would care to enlighten me re. the injustices that women are currently going through? As for equating their plight to those of African Americans, that’s beyond ludicrous and insulting to the memories of brothers and sisters who fought for equal rights back in the ’50s and ’60s.
This being Hugo’s blog, I’m going to invoke the “I shouldn’t have to teach you about the patriarchy rule” and just send you here. If I’m wrong, Hugo, please let me know.
Auguste, on second thought don’t bother trying to provide examples of “disadvantages” and other slights against women here at Hugo’s - it would be awful thread-drift and I’m sure Hugo doesn’t want that. Sorry Hugo for taking the bait Auguste threw out.
Instead, Auguste, come on over to Stand Your Ground, sign up and introduce yourself and then start a thread on this topic. Or I’ll start the thread for you. Heck, I could probably even get Dr. E. to make a place in The Ring for you. I would love it if you’d go ahead and try to defend your position on this topic: We’ve had some of the best minds in the feminist blogosphere - including Hugo himself - try their hands at this and none have been able to meet the challenge. Think you’re up to it?
Auguste, do I get to post freely there or do I have to sit and nod in agreement like a good boy is required to do at most all feminist blogs? If the former then I’ll see you there, otherwise no thanks. It would be a waste of time.
Mr. Bad, I wasn’t suggesting a dialogue on the topic. I was simply providing resources for those who doubt feminism’s utility. As for Stand Your Ground, well, hell, if the best minds of feminism have “failed to meet the challenge”, what chance does poor little old me have?
Ah, I went to the Feminism 101 Website and see that it’s a place for the like-minded to agree with each other. The problem is, most all of the “truths” that I saw were in fact opinions, highly-debatable ones at that. Thus, Feminism 101 is nothing but a propaganda site, the likes of which can be found on any college campus in the U.S., including mine. Been there, done that.
If you want to discuss the issues listed in Feminism 101 using facts, opinions, voodoo, whatever, come on over to Stand Your Ground. Who knows, maybe you’ll prove yourself to be more erudite than Hugo, Barry, et al. You won’t know until you try, and at least we’ll give you a fair chance to argue your beliefs. Often times the best test of a belief system is to debate with non-believers.
Up for the challenge?
Okay, stop the thread drift NOW. Stay on the topic of this post.
Yeah, sorry about that Hugo - I should never have taken the bait.
My point, which seemed to have gotten lost in all the noise about “women’s disadvantages” (a Red Herring and the original instance of thread drift), was that as is the case with other maladies, simply addressing the symptoms (i.e., pain) most of the time does nothing to cure the cause of those symptoms. So I stick by my original thesis: Unless and until we can address the cause of the pain that men and boys are suffering (e.g., the culture that comes up with “Boys are stupid, throw rocks at them” t-shirts for girls), we can expect more of these types of incidents.
Mr. Bad, I wasn’t suggesting a dialogue on the topic
Well, there’s a shock.
Anyway, I doubt in this case anything but proper medication in an inpatient facility might have helped him. He shows several signs of what could be a variety of late-onset psychosis for which it is probably too late to diagnose properly. Perhaps someone might do a psychological autopsy.
As for men’s anger, until you begin by validating it instead of dismissing it, you’ll do more harm than good.
Gonz, there’s a huge difference between validating that the anger is real and validating that the perceived cause of the anger is reasonable. If a man is filled with rage and hurt, I’m going to honor the reality of his anger. If he then explains his rage is because “all women are bitches”, I’m not going to validate that as a legitimate cause. Feelings are not facts.
Hugo, the real tragedy is the Virginia Tech kept this man enrolled despite:
· Was accused of setting fire in a dorm room
· Was named in at least two separate official stalking complaints
· Was ruled by a court to be “an imminent danger to self or others.”
· Was suspected / feared by many of his classmates
· Was so disturbing that Nikki Giovanni, a University Distinguished Professor, threatened to resign if he was not removed from her class
Universities cannot guarantee that students are safe. But students have a right to feel that their classmates are at the very least not known to be dangerous. This man was should not have remained a student.
You’re a faculty member and I think you genuinely care about your students. Please comment.
I agree that we should try to help troubled people. His classmates tried to talk with him (but often referred to him as “question mark guy” after he refused to put his name to the class roster). Diane Sawyer interviewed his two roommates (clip at abcnews.com) who seemed to be decent young men who tried (unsuccessfully) to converse with him. His mental health is not his fellow students’ responsibility (this really peeved me after Columbine, when society acted as if a group of teenagers were supposed to redeem and rehabilitate a pair of very dangerous killers whose behavior would frignten and repel any sane adult while ignoring the parents who allowed them to accumulate an arsenal). But at least in this case his peers seemed to have tried.
His parents expressed concern and tried to help. The university gave him a tutor (with an assistant and a code word to call police). The court ordered him into forced psychiatric hospitalization…this seems a little beyond your “chat with a mentor” plan.
The difference is, Hugo, if a man is ticked off about losing contact with his kids because he got screwed in a court that rubricizes him as a walking ATm, and of little other value, it’s kind of inappropriate to grind one’s own ideological axe and tell him “You’re also a victim of the patriarchy.”
Hugo…
I don’t expect you (or anyone) to turn yourself into a therapist. No teacher should feel obliged to do that. But when you spoke of mentoring hurt young men, I couldn’t help noticing some of your past statements which it struck me might get in the way of that. Hurt young men take energy to mentor. They need respect, which more than anything else, in my view, translates to honesty. Given what you wrote about not wanting to spend time with “problem boys” as opposed to “girls and well behaved boys”, I think that before you attempt to support a young man in trouble you have to make your feelings clear, to yourself and to him. A huge difference exists between passing a kid in serious trouble off to a therapist, and not providing a troubled young person with the help they expect and need, because you haven’t challenged your assumptions enough beforehand. Young men in trouble and pain often, if not always, have limited resources. Once you have committed to help them, they depend on you. The time to decide whether you want to make your priority “girls and well-behaved boys” or one or two kids in real trouble and pain comes before you offer to help.
Likewise, kids in trouble often have real limits. Pace your argument about the “seductive lie… of helplessness”, a lot of young men in trouble have specific limits. It doesn’t do to decide that a young man could get in tune with other people’s emotions with just a little more effort unless you know that, because a non-trivial number of young men simply can’t. Again, the time to ask what you will do to help a young man whose limits challenge beliefs that you apparently hold fairly deeply comes before you make promises.
Gonzman, Bad…
You either help people because they need help, with a willingness to let your political and social beliefs take second place, or you don’t. I honestly don’t see how trying to “mentor” a young man in pain to get more fodder for your gripes against feminism does him or anyone else any good.
In response to K, there is a basic flaw in comparing the help Cho Seung-Hui received and the help I believe Hugo is implying. A mentor isn’t a person who is assigned to someone in need but rather it is a different kind of relationship. Can I prove that a mentor would have prevented this situation with any certainty? Of course not. And seeing that nobody on this blog has or ever will speak to this individual, any thoughts of what could have been will be purely speculation. However, I do believe that a mentor relationship with an individual that could have possibly understood and provided this student with a means of handling his own emotions could have positively influenced his life.
Good distinction, Mike, between someone paid to care and someone who actually cares. The problem seems to be that he refused to talk to or at anyone BUT a court-ordered psychiatrist, and his issues seemed to be “professional strength” rather than “consumer grade,” but perhaps I overestimate the value of training in psychiatry.
One of the reports said he played a lot of basketball, which seems hard to do without talking to anyone. Wonder if he was a ball hog.
Yeah: I wonder if he was a ball hog. That’s a silly but profound question, because trying to visualize him playing basketball suddenly makes him seem very human.
Another deep question for Hugo:
Jesus did a lot of exorcisms, but modern Christians (with the exceptions of Pentecostals) avoid the topic of demon possession.
With much love to his family (who are probably great people and are no doubt suffering greatly right now), what would you say, as a Christian, about the role of demonic activity in this incident?
If we rule it out in this incident, don’t we pretty much have to discredit the entire concept?
PS: I wonder what is being hidden by the censorship in this statement:
“Cho…also expressed disappointment in his religion, and made references to Christianity.”
Hugo, I read some of the excerpts from Cho’s plays and was shocked and disturbed by the depth and reach of his anger. I agree with many of your points in this post–however, one additional issue worth considering is the fact that many universities, particularly public ones, seem to have a low space on their priority list for mental health services funding, which is quite unfortunate. Not that flooding university counseling departments is going to actually, completely solve what seems to be an ongoing issue, but it’s one component (of many) that may have an impact. On the whole, though, your points are right on. Changing the cycles of violence will require many changes–including massive cultural shifts.
I’d like to second Hugo’s distinction between the reality of the hurt and anger and validating the perceived source of the hurt and anger. I’m very much with Auguste in my personal social and political perspectives and I’m sure that Mr. Bad or Gonz and I would find plenty to argue about. But I don’t think that they aren’t hurt and aren’t angry, and like any human being they deserve comfort and empathy for their hurt.
I have no doubt that loss of privilege or privilege denied hurts, and that that hurt is real. I’ve spent the same time hurt and angry that every shy, self-conscious person looking for friendship and romance has. But while my pain was very real and I deserved sympathy and comfort, that doesn’t mean that in those moments when I externalized my hurt and anger to ask, ‘Why don’t you love me the way I love you, the way I want you to love me?’ that I was right to do so.
To continue (mouse malfunction)…..
That my anguish in those moments was sincere and heartfelt does not mean that my analysis of the source of my pain was accurate or factual. What I deserved was comfort, not agreement.
NBarnes;
While my degree in psychology is merely an associates degree, I can tell you for a fact that the minute you start out with a troubled someone any variation of “You’re wrong,” that you have not built a bridge, but a wall. That is a later step, not a first one.
Hugo, a man who understands his pain as “all women are bitches” is the male equivalent of a woman who blames her problems - and those of women in general - on, e.g., “the patriarchy.” Both have real pain and an understanding of the source of that pain that is based in perception and feeling which is difficult if not impossible to define precisely. In the case of “all women are bitches” we simply haven’t come up with an equivalent term for “patriarchy.”
If you ask us to accept “patriarchy” as a legitimate meme for understanding women’s pain then you must accept the equivalent meme of “all women are bitches” for men’s pain, at least until we can create a more palatable term for it.
I’d caution that this case is a poor example to use when discussing men’s anger against women. By no means am I saying that anger doesn’t exist, but the VT shooting was perpetuated by a deeply troubled individual who doesn’t represent a typical male in any way and probably should have been under the care of a psychiatrist, not allowed to live unchecked in a college environment as he was. If anything, we should use this case to talk about the deplorable state of the mental health care system in this country and why the tax dollars supporting it have dried up. Furthermore, we should discuss what kind of checks and balances we can put in place to catch deeply troubled people such as this before they lash out. As it stands, only financially stable people with good support networks have access to decent mental care. I’d argue that’s the group least in need of such care. People on their own with little ability to pay for care are simply SOL.
“Real men’s work — especially in school settings — is about initiating relationship with the shy, the bookish, the brooding and the hostile. It is frustrating, difficult, painful, and very tiring work.”
No doubt, people tried to do this in Cho’s case. I’d heard his roommates tried to get him to come out of his shell, but he wouldn’t have any of it. Cho’s mental illness may have made any intervention impossible though.
What I got from your post is that there are probably thousands of times where people can and have intervened in a lonely or brooding males life, and provided that bit of steering that prevented the type of alienation and frustration that could lead to violence.
I like to think I’ve done that with someone I know. I hope I have, but it’s an ongoing project when its someone close to you, and as you say it is not easy.
Gonz: While my degree in psychology is merely an associates degree, I can tell you for a fact that the minute you start out with a troubled someone any variation of “You’re wrong,” that you have not built a bridge, but a wall. That is a later step, not a first one.
At no point did I suggest leading with ‘You believe [whatever] is the source of your pain, but you’re wrong’
Bad: If you ask us to accept “patriarchy” as a legitimate meme for understanding women’s pain then you must accept the equivalent meme of “all women are bitches” for men’s pain,
Uh, no? Why ‘must’? I believe that the patriarchy is real, but I don’t believe that all women are bitches.
Mr Bad: “a man who understands his pain as “all women are bitches” is the male equivalent of a woman who blames her problems - and those of women in general - on, e.g., “the patriarchy.””
Indeed, it is not. The female equivalent would be someone who says: “all men are bastards.”
If you think this is actually what feminism IS, in a less palatable form, then you are wrong. If that is what you are hearing from feminist theory, then you have been misled. It`s a bit like refuting the Bible by arguing against Fred Phelps.
Regarding your stated aim, helping men avoid pain in the first place: yes, this is laudable, but why does it negate what Hugo and others have stated, that helping men deal with their pain in constructive/healthy ways is what we should focus on? We can help people avoid pain, but pain is a fact of life, and nobody can avoid feeling pain/emotional suffering altogether.
Kate, you’re incorrect - modern feminism is indeed simply the female version of “all women are bitches,” they’ve just given the meme a neat-sounding name: “The Partriarchy.” Feminists blame women’s ‘pain’ (such as it is) on “The Patriarchy” and some extremist MRAs blame men’s pain the “all women are bitches” meme. Interestingly, the ‘bitches’ phrase is usually only uttered by feminists when referencing men who disagree with them - I personally have never heard an MRA say that. And even more fascinating is that most all feminists subscribe to “The Patriarchy” meme, while only a very tiny fringe of MRAs subscribe to the equivalent meme; in fact, the “all women are bitches” meme is vigorously challenged among mainstream MRAs. The difference between MRAs and feminists on the level of misogynist/misandrist sentiment they tolerate among their members is quite telling.
Kate, I think we’ll just have to agree to disagree on this one.
Mr Bad: we will indeed have to agree to disagree, since your definition of feminism is so far removed from either my understanding, the definitions given by feminists themselves, and the dictionary definition of the word, that I fear you are attacking something else altogether.
What`s more, you can clearly see that MRAs are not a monolithic group, and IMO correctly state that it is “some extremist MRAs” who blame men`s pain on women`s bitchery. Yet you seem to persist in regarding feminism, or modern feminists, as just such a monolithic group.
I have seen MRAs refer to “The Matriarchy” before. Following your definitions (not mine) would this not be the equivalent of a neat-sounding name for “all women are bitches”?
I hope `agree to disagree` does not mean stop talking. It doesn`t for me.
To be honest, this sort of argument feels rather like semantics. Although, words are all we have when using this medium, and trying to communicate what we mean. Personally, I`m interested in helping men and women I know to find ways to deal with anger. I see it as; helping men = helping women and vice-versa. From your first comment, it seems you subscribe to the idea that the “feminist lobby”, in helping women, has contributed to the marginalisation/criminalisation of men/masculinity, rather than helping them too. How is feminism to blame for the anger of a man like Cho Seung-Hui? How, under your see-saw balance of feminism/men`s interests, would promoting men`s interests be fair to women?
Difference is, Kate, we condemn our extremists.
Folks, back on topic please.
If one considers it work to aid a young man in need then one has already missed the point. Speaking as a “brooding” young man from Cho’s generation, I think the above attitude is one of the many reasons why Cho’s hurt and anger remained suppressed. As John mentioned above, one must approach helping young men with the intent to actually help them because it is the right thing to do for them. It requires respect, which the above–no offense–selfish, self-serving attitude completely lacks.
I agree that “real men” (which one assume excludes non-feminist males) need to step up and mentor young men. However, this cannot be done via political agendas. Feminism–by virtue of its political concerns–has no reason to be involved, and the men’s movement need only be involved to the extent of providing positive male mentoring. At the moment, there is a total lack of that. Part of the reason for that is because of the impact of feminism in our society and particularly in the school systems. The other is our society’s expectation that males solve their own problems. Neither of these can be addressed instantly, but efforts can be made by all men if they honestly wish to help young men.
Mentoring should not be done to protect only women or to fight against a biased political ideology. One should reach out to those who are too afraid, too ashamed, too hurt, too angry or too unwilling to reach out themselves because they need the support. If it is done genuinely then it may help them. If not, we may see another Cho.