Comments on: A note about leather, veganism, and the slow pace of transformation http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/04/24/a-note-about-leather-veganism-and-the-slow-pace-of-transformation/ Fri, 10 Oct 2008 23:15:51 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.3.3 By: Jackie http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/04/24/a-note-about-leather-veganism-and-the-slow-pace-of-transformation/#comment-124305 Jackie Sun, 07 Oct 2007 18:07:29 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/04/24/a-note-about-leather-veganism-and-the-slow-pace-of-transformation/#comment-124305 This is a great "thinking" post. Not eating animals or their by-products is a lot easier than shopping. ie: shoes, handbags, leather in cars, film, etc. . . I to am struggling with this. I go on and off. I just wish I didn't get so emotional. If it was the olden days and animals were treated humanely (lived a great life, roaming free, no stress) it would be much different than the grim reality of today. This is a great “thinking” post.

Not eating animals or their by-products is a lot easier than shopping. ie: shoes, handbags, leather in cars, film, etc. . .

I to am struggling with this. I go on and off. I just wish I didn’t get so emotional. If it was the olden days and animals were treated humanely (lived a great life, roaming free, no stress) it would be much different than the grim reality of today.

]]> By: kate.d. http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/04/24/a-note-about-leather-veganism-and-the-slow-pace-of-transformation/#comment-49912 kate.d. Sat, 28 Apr 2007 15:53:11 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/04/24/a-note-about-leather-veganism-and-the-slow-pace-of-transformation/#comment-49912 a late comment here, but thanks for this post! i actually just posted last week about my despair at finding a new pair of non-leather shoes. ugh, what an odyssey. i'm also going by the Wear It Out theory concerning my old leather shoes/jackets/bags, but i am concerned about my future ability to find pieces that are both cute AND not made of dead animal :( we'll see how it goes... a late comment here, but thanks for this post! i actually just posted last week about my despair at finding a new pair of non-leather shoes. ugh, what an odyssey. i’m also going by the Wear It Out theory concerning my old leather shoes/jackets/bags, but i am concerned about my future ability to find pieces that are both cute AND not made of dead animal :( we’ll see how it goes…

]]> By: Ethical seriousness without self-absorption « A Thinking Reed http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/04/24/a-note-about-leather-veganism-and-the-slow-pace-of-transformation/#comment-48800 Ethical seriousness without self-absorption « A Thinking Reed Thu, 26 Apr 2007 14:42:29 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/04/24/a-note-about-leather-veganism-and-the-slow-pace-of-transformation/#comment-48800 [...] Apr 26th, 2007 by Lee Hugo has a reflective post on his journey “further up and further in” to the vegan lifestyle and contemplates the importance of gradual change. And here’s an insightful post on how the quest for moral improvement can become ironically self-absorbed. [...] […] Apr 26th, 2007 by Lee Hugo has a reflective post on his journey “further up and further in” to the vegan lifestyle and contemplates the importance of gradual change. And here’s an insightful post on how the quest for moral improvement can become ironically self-absorbed. […]

]]> By: Hugo Schwyzer http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/04/24/a-note-about-leather-veganism-and-the-slow-pace-of-transformation/#comment-48573 Hugo Schwyzer Wed, 25 Apr 2007 22:27:27 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/04/24/a-note-about-leather-veganism-and-the-slow-pace-of-transformation/#comment-48573 Indeed, Tam; no decent person avoids hypocrisy because only those who lack all decency can successfully live up to their values at all times. And even then, they might betray themselves with a careless, charitable act. Gonz, I've spoken to the Vegan High Command. Come the revolution, death for you -- by legumes. Indeed, Tam; no decent person avoids hypocrisy because only those who lack all decency can successfully live up to their values at all times. And even then, they might betray themselves with a careless, charitable act.

Gonz, I’ve spoken to the Vegan High Command. Come the revolution, death for you — by legumes.

]]> By: Tam http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/04/24/a-note-about-leather-veganism-and-the-slow-pace-of-transformation/#comment-48570 Tam Wed, 25 Apr 2007 22:23:33 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/04/24/a-note-about-leather-veganism-and-the-slow-pace-of-transformation/#comment-48570 I personally almost always hate the "hypocrisy" argument to begin with. Saying the right things and doing the right things are both good. You shouldn't stop saying the right things even if you can't do the right things, nor should you stop doing the right things just because you can't say the right things. We are all hypocrites, and usually it just shows that we're struggling to do the right thing. The only areas where a person is never hypocritical are those where they either effortlessly do the right thing (yay!) or where they've given up on bothering to care that their actions are wrong. I personally almost always hate the “hypocrisy” argument to begin with. Saying the right things and doing the right things are both good. You shouldn’t stop saying the right things even if you can’t do the right things, nor should you stop doing the right things just because you can’t say the right things. We are all hypocrites, and usually it just shows that we’re struggling to do the right thing. The only areas where a person is never hypocritical are those where they either effortlessly do the right thing (yay!) or where they’ve given up on bothering to care that their actions are wrong.

]]> By: The Gonzman http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/04/24/a-note-about-leather-veganism-and-the-slow-pace-of-transformation/#comment-48526 The Gonzman Wed, 25 Apr 2007 19:51:08 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/04/24/a-note-about-leather-veganism-and-the-slow-pace-of-transformation/#comment-48526 The "Vegan Stormtroopers" was only part in jest, just trying to be lighthearted; however, I have had many Vegans in - shall we say - very stern terms describe just how I will pay for my carnivorous sins "when ze revolution comes." This has included threats of prosecution for murder, and longing for the day when defense of an animal will give them license to shoot "people like you(me)." Kind of Randall Terryish, if you ask me. The “Vegan Stormtroopers” was only part in jest, just trying to be lighthearted; however, I have had many Vegans in - shall we say - very stern terms describe just how I will pay for my carnivorous sins “when ze revolution comes.” This has included threats of prosecution for murder, and longing for the day when defense of an animal will give them license to shoot “people like you(me).”

Kind of Randall Terryish, if you ask me.

]]> By: Hugo Schwyzer http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/04/24/a-note-about-leather-veganism-and-the-slow-pace-of-transformation/#comment-48432 Hugo Schwyzer Wed, 25 Apr 2007 16:32:42 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/04/24/a-note-about-leather-veganism-and-the-slow-pace-of-transformation/#comment-48432 Agreed, Lee. I like the "witness" model, just as I like the sense of always pushing closer and closer to the goal that will only be completed when He comes. Agreed, Lee. I like the “witness” model, just as I like the sense of always pushing closer and closer to the goal that will only be completed when He comes.

]]> By: Lee http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/04/24/a-note-about-leather-veganism-and-the-slow-pace-of-transformation/#comment-48336 Lee Wed, 25 Apr 2007 13:31:33 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/04/24/a-note-about-leather-veganism-and-the-slow-pace-of-transformation/#comment-48336 Hugo, good post. I think a corollary of this is that there is no point - at least in this life - where one can stand on "pure ground." Even a thoroughly consistent vegan will make use of products that have animal death and suffering as their inevitable byproduct (clearing land for growing crops, e.g.). The fact that nature inherently entails a certain level of predation and competition for resources makes this inevitable. That's why the "personal purity" school of vegetarianism/veganism doesn't appeal to me. I think a better model can probably be given in terms of "witness" - avoiding the unnecessary death and suffering of animals wherever possible witnesses to a higher order of things. This gets pretty eschatological and religious, but it seems to me much more realistic than the idea that we can somehow avoid inflicting harm on animals entirely. Hugo, good post. I think a corollary of this is that there is no point - at least in this life - where one can stand on “pure ground.” Even a thoroughly consistent vegan will make use of products that have animal death and suffering as their inevitable byproduct (clearing land for growing crops, e.g.). The fact that nature inherently entails a certain level of predation and competition for resources makes this inevitable. That’s why the “personal purity” school of vegetarianism/veganism doesn’t appeal to me. I think a better model can probably be given in terms of “witness” - avoiding the unnecessary death and suffering of animals wherever possible witnesses to a higher order of things. This gets pretty eschatological and religious, but it seems to me much more realistic than the idea that we can somehow avoid inflicting harm on animals entirely.

]]> By: davev http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/04/24/a-note-about-leather-veganism-and-the-slow-pace-of-transformation/#comment-48087 davev Wed, 25 Apr 2007 05:37:20 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/04/24/a-note-about-leather-veganism-and-the-slow-pace-of-transformation/#comment-48087 Hugo- I do respect your dedication. When you do things, you go all out. As your veganism evolves you will probably move beyond simply rejecting what you perceive as murder (meat and leather) and slavery (milk products and eggs) and focus on the negligent and careless killing (kind of like manslaughter) of animals. The distribution system that transports our goods inflicts a tremendous amount of damage on animal life from insects all the way to mammals such as skunks, rabbits, and deer. Local products will of course be less likely to kill or maim animals. Pest control for food crops as well as cotton often decimate animal populations in the ground. Actually, the amount of pesticide used on cotton is mind boggling. Going completely organic will help, but even organic farmers often intentionally kill “pests” using things other than chemicals. Not sure what the total solution is, but it might involve growing your own food as well as textile crops for cloth. Hugo-
I do respect your dedication. When you do things, you go all out.
As your veganism evolves you will probably move beyond simply rejecting what you perceive as murder (meat and leather) and slavery (milk products and eggs) and focus on the negligent and careless killing (kind of like manslaughter) of animals.

The distribution system that transports our goods inflicts a tremendous amount of damage on animal life from insects all the way to mammals such as skunks, rabbits, and deer. Local products will of course be less likely to kill or maim animals. Pest control for food crops as well as cotton often decimate animal populations in the ground. Actually, the amount of pesticide used on cotton is mind boggling. Going completely organic will help, but even organic farmers often intentionally kill “pests” using things other than chemicals. Not sure what the total solution is, but it might involve growing your own food as well as textile crops for cloth.

]]> By: Hugo Schwyzer http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/04/24/a-note-about-leather-veganism-and-the-slow-pace-of-transformation/#comment-48060 Hugo Schwyzer Wed, 25 Apr 2007 04:58:23 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/04/24/a-note-about-leather-veganism-and-the-slow-pace-of-transformation/#comment-48060 I respect indigenous cultural traditions, Ed. I am much less concerned about that sort of thing, and I know of no Vegan High Command which has issued a pronouncement on it. And of course, I watch and am a huge fan of many sports that use leather balls. I respect indigenous cultural traditions, Ed. I am much less concerned about that sort of thing, and I know of no Vegan High Command which has issued a pronouncement on it.

And of course, I watch and am a huge fan of many sports that use leather balls.

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