Comments on: More on young women and perfectionism, people-pleasing, and the enduring fear of the “slut” http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/04/25/more-on-young-women-and-perfectionism-people-pleasing-and-the-enduring-fear-of-the-slut/ Mon, 15 Mar 2010 21:59:44 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.3.3 By: Tyler D http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/04/25/more-on-young-women-and-perfectionism-people-pleasing-and-the-enduring-fear-of-the-slut/#comment-50408 Tyler D Mon, 30 Apr 2007 02:33:14 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/04/25/more-on-young-women-and-perfectionism-people-pleasing-and-the-enduring-fear-of-the-slut/#comment-50408 annaham, what you say about contradictions makes a lot of sense. The contradictions built into the messages sent to girls and women are disorienting and cause second-guessing and confusion. It seems to be aimed at keeping women on the straight and narrow track. Having a boyfriend is considered a good thing, because no boyfriend is <i>prudish</i>, which is bad. However, too much fun with your boyfriend, or too many boyfriends, verges on the <i>slutty</i>, which is also bad. The common ground between the messages sent to both males and females is something like "practice your relationships and sexual behavior in a way that communicates to other people in the community that your status is high". The messages are highly normative and have the result of coercing specific behavior from those who take them to heart. Social customs promote certain behaviors ("Congratulations! You're getting married! Here are lots of gifts.") and discourage others ("Slut! Bad!"). annaham, what you say about contradictions makes a lot of sense.

The contradictions built into the messages sent to girls and women are disorienting and cause second-guessing and confusion. It seems to be aimed at keeping women on the straight and narrow track.

Having a boyfriend is considered a good thing, because no boyfriend is prudish, which is bad. However, too much fun with your boyfriend, or too many boyfriends, verges on the slutty, which is also bad.

The common ground between the messages sent to both males and females is something like “practice your relationships and sexual behavior in a way that communicates to other people in the community that your status is high”. The messages are highly normative and have the result of coercing specific behavior from those who take them to heart. Social customs promote certain behaviors (”Congratulations! You’re getting married! Here are lots of gifts.”) and discourage others (”Slut! Bad!”).

]]> By: annaham http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/04/25/more-on-young-women-and-perfectionism-people-pleasing-and-the-enduring-fear-of-the-slut/#comment-50348 annaham Sun, 29 Apr 2007 22:59:41 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/04/25/more-on-young-women-and-perfectionism-people-pleasing-and-the-enduring-fear-of-the-slut/#comment-50348 In my own experience, it's always been the <I>contradictions</I> that have caused me so much guilt and worry. I'm 21, but I've never had a boyfriend and have rarely been seen as attractive by men, at all. As Emily H. commented, there is no middle ground between being a "slut" and a "prude." Whenever I get that question ("Do you have a boyfriend?," which is sometimes followed by, "Why not?"), usually from well-meaning, older family friends or distant relatives at boring parties/reunions, I always get the urge to say "No, and that's fine with me." I've also consistently felt that I've had to "make up" for having never been in a relationship (which nearly always implies *failure* of some sort on my part) by excelling at other things, such as scholastic and artistic pursuits. The messages that societal structures send to young women can be frighteningly similar, even if one is struggling over sexual purity or, in my case, sexual and relationship inexperience, ie: <I>Looking</I> sexy is very important. Feeling sexy or like you're in control of your own sexuality is not. Don't have sex--then you're a slut {this is the flip side of "Have sex, or you're a prude"}. Anyway, I hope this comment isn't too thread-drifty. In my own experience, it’s always been the contradictions that have caused me so much guilt and worry. I’m 21, but I’ve never had a boyfriend and have rarely been seen as attractive by men, at all. As Emily H. commented, there is no middle ground between being a “slut” and a “prude.” Whenever I get that question (”Do you have a boyfriend?,” which is sometimes followed by, “Why not?”), usually from well-meaning, older family friends or distant relatives at boring parties/reunions, I always get the urge to say “No, and that’s fine with me.”

I’ve also consistently felt that I’ve had to “make up” for having never been in a relationship (which nearly always implies *failure* of some sort on my part) by excelling at other things, such as scholastic and artistic pursuits. The messages that societal structures send to young women can be frighteningly similar, even if one is struggling over sexual purity or, in my case, sexual and relationship inexperience, ie: Looking sexy is very important. Feeling sexy or like you’re in control of your own sexuality is not. Don’t have sex–then you’re a slut {this is the flip side of “Have sex, or you’re a prude”}.

Anyway, I hope this comment isn’t too thread-drifty.

]]> By: davev http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/04/25/more-on-young-women-and-perfectionism-people-pleasing-and-the-enduring-fear-of-the-slut/#comment-49756 davev Sat, 28 Apr 2007 07:58:14 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/04/25/more-on-young-women-and-perfectionism-people-pleasing-and-the-enduring-fear-of-the-slut/#comment-49756 Good thread. Not to nitpick, but from what I've observed with others heroin addiction is not a piece of cake to overcome. Good thread. Not to nitpick, but from what I’ve observed with others heroin addiction is not a piece of cake to overcome.

]]> By: Lynn Gazis-Sax http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/04/25/more-on-young-women-and-perfectionism-people-pleasing-and-the-enduring-fear-of-the-slut/#comment-49597 Lynn Gazis-Sax Sat, 28 Apr 2007 00:37:10 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/04/25/more-on-young-women-and-perfectionism-people-pleasing-and-the-enduring-fear-of-the-slut/#comment-49597 I haven't tended to lose sleep worrying if people think I'm "fat," but "slutty" I have an enduring fear of. Mainly because to me, other people thinking of me as "slutty" means other people not being on my side if I'm sexually harrassed or worse. People just thinking badly of me, I can deal with; people not thinking I have rights any more, not so much. Unfortunately, though, Emily H. is right, and there really <em>is</em> no safe choice. Absolutely anything you do, while single, can mean you're a "slut," a "prude," or a "tease." Of the three, "tease" is the scariest; at least a "slut" or a "prude" <em>might</em> be taken at her word and allowed her own choices. And, of the three, "tease" is the one where it's least possible to find any behavior that lets you be sure you can avoid it. I haven’t tended to lose sleep worrying if people think I’m “fat,” but “slutty” I have an enduring fear of. Mainly because to me, other people thinking of me as “slutty” means other people not being on my side if I’m sexually harrassed or worse. People just thinking badly of me, I can deal with; people not thinking I have rights any more, not so much.

Unfortunately, though, Emily H. is right, and there really is no safe choice. Absolutely anything you do, while single, can mean you’re a “slut,” a “prude,” or a “tease.” Of the three, “tease” is the scariest; at least a “slut” or a “prude” might be taken at her word and allowed her own choices. And, of the three, “tease” is the one where it’s least possible to find any behavior that lets you be sure you can avoid it.

]]> By: carlaviii http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/04/25/more-on-young-women-and-perfectionism-people-pleasing-and-the-enduring-fear-of-the-slut/#comment-49476 carlaviii Fri, 27 Apr 2007 18:01:47 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/04/25/more-on-young-women-and-perfectionism-people-pleasing-and-the-enduring-fear-of-the-slut/#comment-49476 Since I have always been fat, it was made painfully obvious to me, throughout middle and high school, that my value as a sexual object was vanishingly small. Also, that I must be a complete idiot since I was fat -- which actually hurt more. While this hurt, and sent me into deviant behaviors like reading comic books and playing Dungeons & Dragons, it did amputate a lot of my concerns of what people thought of me. I knew exactly what they were thinking of me: nothing at all. Maybe it sounds terrible, but it was in its way quite liberating when it sank in that I was not being held to a yardstick because I was not acceptably female. Now, many years later, it seems bizarre to me that anybody loses sleep over whether someone thinks they're "slutty" or "fat" -- so I'm sorry if I don't come across as sympathetic. But life is too short, and at the same time far too long to to spend it as a slave to some unrealistic ideal. Since I have always been fat, it was made painfully obvious to me, throughout middle and high school, that my value as a sexual object was vanishingly small. Also, that I must be a complete idiot since I was fat — which actually hurt more.

While this hurt, and sent me into deviant behaviors like reading comic books and playing Dungeons & Dragons, it did amputate a lot of my concerns of what people thought of me. I knew exactly what they were thinking of me: nothing at all.

Maybe it sounds terrible, but it was in its way quite liberating when it sank in that I was not being held to a yardstick because I was not acceptably female.

Now, many years later, it seems bizarre to me that anybody loses sleep over whether someone thinks they’re “slutty” or “fat” — so I’m sorry if I don’t come across as sympathetic. But life is too short, and at the same time far too long to to spend it as a slave to some unrealistic ideal.

]]> By: Hugo Schwyzer http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/04/25/more-on-young-women-and-perfectionism-people-pleasing-and-the-enduring-fear-of-the-slut/#comment-48822 Hugo Schwyzer Thu, 26 Apr 2007 15:26:27 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/04/25/more-on-young-women-and-perfectionism-people-pleasing-and-the-enduring-fear-of-the-slut/#comment-48822 Agreed, Sally -- this is why I said <em>partly</em> above. I am not proferring an all-inclusive theory here, and what I am offering is aimed largely at a high-school and college-aged audience. No question, all the literature on eating disorders connects to the idea that at least in part, anorexia is a perverse rebellion, a refusal to play by the rules. Depending on the woman involved, not-eating can be either a desperate attempt to comply with social norms or a quiet rejection of those same ideals. And given how conflicted many teenaagers are, it can be both at once. As a layperson who does work with young people, I've gotta say that working with eating disorders is tougher than working with anything else. Drug addiction is a piece of cake (sorry) compared to overcoming serious problems with food. Agreed, Sally — this is why I said partly above. I am not proferring an all-inclusive theory here, and what I am offering is aimed largely at a high-school and college-aged audience.

No question, all the literature on eating disorders connects to the idea that at least in part, anorexia is a perverse rebellion, a refusal to play by the rules. Depending on the woman involved, not-eating can be either a desperate attempt to comply with social norms or a quiet rejection of those same ideals. And given how conflicted many teenaagers are, it can be both at once.

As a layperson who does work with young people, I’ve gotta say that working with eating disorders is tougher than working with anything else. Drug addiction is a piece of cake (sorry) compared to overcoming serious problems with food.

]]> By: Sally http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/04/25/more-on-young-women-and-perfectionism-people-pleasing-and-the-enduring-fear-of-the-slut/#comment-48820 Sally Thu, 26 Apr 2007 15:20:43 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/04/25/more-on-young-women-and-perfectionism-people-pleasing-and-the-enduring-fear-of-the-slut/#comment-48820 I think maybe my problem here is that Courtney's talking about your mainstream body angst, which is miserable and debilitating but probably not going to land you in cardiac arrest, whereas I'm thinking about full-blown anorexia... I think you're onto something, but I think it's a little more complicated than you suggest. I definitely think that anorexia, at least, is tied up to really complicated feelings of shame and ambivalence about sexuality. But I think it's sexuality, rather than necessarily having sex. One of the really classic moments for anorexia to emerge is in early adolescence, right after a girl hits puberty. That's why there are so many 12 and 13-year-old anorexics. I don't think most of those little girls are having sex. I do think that they're whiplashed by a whole bunch of contradictory expectations and messages about their new, sexualized bodies and that it's sometimes easier to starve that body away than to try to try to figure out how to conform to those impossible expectations. I think anorexia is hugely about purity, in the sense that an anorexic often thinks she can purify her body by conquering her desires (for food, but I think often for sex, too) and by making it cease to be an object of other people's desire. (There is really nothing less sexy in the world than an anorexic, despite what the media would tell you. I think most anorexics are pretty aware of that.) But I think it's a way out of the whole "how can I be sexual and still good" dilemma, rather than a way of reconciling those conflicting demands. I think anorexia is often a denial of sexuality, rather than a way of convincing yourself that even if you're sleeping with guys, you're still a good girl and not a slut. If that makes any sense. (It's been pointed out that a lot of anorexics were sexually abused as children, and I wonder if some of them are also coming to terms with, or avoiding coming to terms with, lesbian sexuality.) I think maybe my problem here is that Courtney’s talking about your mainstream body angst, which is miserable and debilitating but probably not going to land you in cardiac arrest, whereas I’m thinking about full-blown anorexia…

I think you’re onto something, but I think it’s a little more complicated than you suggest. I definitely think that anorexia, at least, is tied up to really complicated feelings of shame and ambivalence about sexuality. But I think it’s sexuality, rather than necessarily having sex. One of the really classic moments for anorexia to emerge is in early adolescence, right after a girl hits puberty. That’s why there are so many 12 and 13-year-old anorexics. I don’t think most of those little girls are having sex. I do think that they’re whiplashed by a whole bunch of contradictory expectations and messages about their new, sexualized bodies and that it’s sometimes easier to starve that body away than to try to try to figure out how to conform to those impossible expectations.

I think anorexia is hugely about purity, in the sense that an anorexic often thinks she can purify her body by conquering her desires (for food, but I think often for sex, too) and by making it cease to be an object of other people’s desire. (There is really nothing less sexy in the world than an anorexic, despite what the media would tell you. I think most anorexics are pretty aware of that.) But I think it’s a way out of the whole “how can I be sexual and still good” dilemma, rather than a way of reconciling those conflicting demands. I think anorexia is often a denial of sexuality, rather than a way of convincing yourself that even if you’re sleeping with guys, you’re still a good girl and not a slut. If that makes any sense.

(It’s been pointed out that a lot of anorexics were sexually abused as children, and I wonder if some of them are also coming to terms with, or avoiding coming to terms with, lesbian sexuality.)

]]> By: Emily H. http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/04/25/more-on-young-women-and-perfectionism-people-pleasing-and-the-enduring-fear-of-the-slut/#comment-48624 Emily H. Thu, 26 Apr 2007 02:26:23 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/04/25/more-on-young-women-and-perfectionism-people-pleasing-and-the-enduring-fear-of-the-slut/#comment-48624 I think it's a curious consequence of an incomplete sexual revolution that there is now <i>no</i> safe choice for women, in terms of sexual activity. There's virtually no margin between being a slut and being a prude; there's no way to live up to the expectations of both your parents and your peers; people-pleasing becomes impossible. (A prude is someone who doesn't want to have sex with you; a slut is someone who doesn't want to have sex with you, but will have sex with someone else). Who wouldn't be neurotically perfectionistic? I think it’s a curious consequence of an incomplete sexual revolution that there is now no safe choice for women, in terms of sexual activity. There’s virtually no margin between being a slut and being a prude; there’s no way to live up to the expectations of both your parents and your peers; people-pleasing becomes impossible. (A prude is someone who doesn’t want to have sex with you; a slut is someone who doesn’t want to have sex with you, but will have sex with someone else). Who wouldn’t be neurotically perfectionistic?

]]> By: Kate http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/04/25/more-on-young-women-and-perfectionism-people-pleasing-and-the-enduring-fear-of-the-slut/#comment-48616 Kate Thu, 26 Apr 2007 01:57:20 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/04/25/more-on-young-women-and-perfectionism-people-pleasing-and-the-enduring-fear-of-the-slut/#comment-48616 As a former overachiever (!) and young woman, I never really connected my fear of failure to sexuality. Hmm, I'll have to think about that. The idea of perfectionism - where it seemed to be gendered, for me, was in this sense that I didn't have as much time as men to get it RIGHT. Time I mean inthe sense of youth. I felt like certain people - usually men - had the chance to make mistakes, over and over again, in their learning curve before they would come good and still be rewarded by society. Not all men, but actually, maybe men like yourself Hugo. Success, as measured by the world, can come well into your forties and older. Whereas for women, I had the sense that to achieve perfection' one had to be YOUNG (and yes, beautiful) at the same time. It's that old idea of women's shelf-life being shorter, which of course, is very connected to their sexual value. Anyhow, the way it seems to play out it to add tremendous pressure to young women to be over-achievers in the sense that they can't afford to mess up, even once, or they will ruin their chances forever to be a great success. Maybe this prospect is real or maybe its partly imagined, but the pressure is definitely there. And, you know, it connects to the idea of being a slut in the sense of fear many young sexually active het women feel about becoming pregnant. That is, the taboo against teenage/single mothers isn't the same as it used to be, but the idea of perfection definitely does not include this particular 'mistake'. As a former overachiever (!) and young woman, I never really connected my fear of failure to sexuality. Hmm, I’ll have to think about that. The idea of perfectionism - where it seemed to be gendered, for me, was in this sense that I didn’t have as much time as men to get it RIGHT. Time I mean inthe sense of youth. I felt like certain people - usually men - had the chance to make mistakes, over and over again, in their learning curve before they would come good and still be rewarded by society. Not all men, but actually, maybe men like yourself Hugo. Success, as measured by the world, can come well into your forties and older. Whereas for women, I had the sense that to achieve perfection’ one had to be YOUNG (and yes, beautiful) at the same time. It’s that old idea of women’s shelf-life being shorter, which of course, is very connected to their sexual value. Anyhow, the way it seems to play out it to add tremendous pressure to young women to be over-achievers in the sense that they can’t afford to mess up, even once, or they will ruin their chances forever to be a great success. Maybe this prospect is real or maybe its partly imagined, but the pressure is definitely there.
And, you know, it connects to the idea of being a slut in the sense of fear many young sexually active het women feel about becoming pregnant. That is, the taboo against teenage/single mothers isn’t the same as it used to be, but the idea of perfection definitely does not include this particular ‘mistake’.

]]> By: Amanda Marcotte http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/04/25/more-on-young-women-and-perfectionism-people-pleasing-and-the-enduring-fear-of-the-slut/#comment-48614 Amanda Marcotte Thu, 26 Apr 2007 01:52:07 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/04/25/more-on-young-women-and-perfectionism-people-pleasing-and-the-enduring-fear-of-the-slut/#comment-48614 <i>Some of my secular feminist allies may doubt that this guilt (and the concomitant compensation with perfectionism) is linked as closely to sex as I suggest.</i> Seems reasonable, though I wouldn't say "linked to sex" but "linked to internalized shame about sex". Some of my secular feminist allies may doubt that this guilt (and the concomitant compensation with perfectionism) is linked as closely to sex as I suggest.

Seems reasonable, though I wouldn’t say “linked to sex” but “linked to internalized shame about sex”.

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