I would recommend you read Gavin de Becker’s books–not because he’s a feminist theoretician, he writes about personal safety, which applies to men and women–but he talks quite a bit about the social expectations put on men and women regarding sexuality.

I almost wonder a little whether part of my lack of romantic success has been my refusal to just shut up and pay for it like so many men apparently do.

If you define ‘romantic success’ as being in any kind of relationship, sure. But who wants a relationship with somebody who is there because you’re paying them?

I don’t think the level of harassment I experienced was unusually high for a woman of that age.

OK, I meant “coercion and economic hardship.” I guess I meant to say that people with very high education and SES are clearly not under economic hardship.

Frankly, it sounded eerily like those arguments about how “career women” with children are harming their kids, unless of course the poor woman has to work.

OK…that’s a rather different topic, of course.

What I would really like to see is the jettisoning of the double standard (exemplified by Chris Rock), where it’s fine if your brother goes to a strip bar but not OK if your sister works in one,

I agree completely, and even brought it up first. I’ve never been to a strip club.

where women are supposed to be sexually available and compliant but not to take money for it.

I think our experiences on this are going to be so far apart that we just can’t understand each other. The women I know seem to exercise complete freedom in regard to their relationships. I’m troubled and confused by the last part of your statement, though: I would prefer that women have sex due to affection or desire, not see it as work / a chore / a burden / obligation that might as well be paid.

As for being as ‘respected as other forms of employment’, that’s a rather broad brush, don’t you think? Used-car salesman is a perfectly legitimate way to make a living, but most people don’t think much of or trust them.

That’s an interesting point.

That said, I’d note that informal cash-for-sex arrangements seem to be perfectly acceptable (cf. Jessica Cutler or any random Congressman’s most recent trophy wife),

Well, they aren’t acceptable to me. But this episode ahs gotten me hinking about how many rich, powerful, and charismatic guys are paying for sex. I almost wonder a little whether part of my lack of romantic success has been my refusal to just shut up and pay for it like so many men apparently do. And the “trophy wife” issue is something I try not to think too much about…perhaps the proportion of sex that isn’t paid or coerced to some degree is indeed rather small (which is a sad reflection on humanity).

and the main difference between the sexual harassment I experienced as a sex worker vs. outside of work was that at work, guys the size of U-Haul trucks would beat the crap out of anyone who harassed me.

I’m sad that you experienced so much harassment in normal life.

The subset of people who say “Hey, I could do all kinds of things for fun and profit, but by jingo I think I’ll be a prostitute/stripper/porn star” is fairly small - miniscule, if we look outside the US. (And of course it varies by the type of sex work. In America, there’s a lot less trafficking in porn actors than in prostitutes.) My own experience is that the myth of the co-ed making pin money is just that–a myth. I’ve never worked at a strip bar where less than half of the women there were single mothers.

What I would really like to see is the jettisoning of the double standard (exemplified by Chris Rock), where it’s fine if your brother goes to a strip bar but not OK if your sister works in one, where women are supposed to be sexually available and compliant but not to take money for it. As for being as ‘respected as other forms of employment’, that’s a rather broad brush, don’t you think? Used-car salesman is a perfectly legitimate way to make a living, but most people don’t think much of or trust them.

As for the exemplar professor, I think she’s very foolish, because sooner or later it’s going to come out and she can kiss further career advancement or prestige goodbye. Not to mention the likelihood of handling criminal charges, since prostitution is illegal everywhere in the US but certain areas of Nevada.

That said, I’d note that informal cash-for-sex arrangements seem to be perfectly acceptable (cf. Jessica Cutler or any random Congressman’s most recent trophy wife), and the main difference between the sexual harassment I experienced as a sex worker vs. outside of work was that at work, guys the size of U-Haul trucks would beat the crap out of anyone who harassed me.

Yup.

However, you expressed this by stuffing your opinion full of commentary that, yes, is classist and sexist.

Still not sure I agree with this. To the classism, I realize that everyone has a different cutoff for survival / poverty as eliminating free choice, so I called out professors and military officers as people who clearly aren’t in abject poverty and therefore DO freely choose to participate. And when you brought up a working-class person prostituting themselves for a new truck, I clarified that I would oppose that also.

As to sexism, I disapprove of the clients (men in this case) but only some of the providers (women in this case). I don’t really consider what I wrote sexist. But when a woman calls a man sexist, there’s really not much he can say other than “am not.”

You are seeing what you choose to see. Is there a point in my responding, if you are simply going to construct a mythago-puppet in your head and argue with that?

I think our misunderstanding runs both ways, as you tend to read unintended ill-will into my statements. But I hadn’t thought of making a “mythago-puppet” (though, now that you mention it, it might be kind of fun to do this via Muppet-like replicas…think Janis vs Guy Smiley, though I probably look more like Beaker and am turning into Bunsen as I age and gain weight).

It would save me time and you energy to let you and your imaginary opponent be.
I’m not a mind-reader: all I know about you is what you post. Everything I’ve seen you post is 100% positive toward all sex workers. Then you accuse me of exaggerating and run away, but never correct, clarify, or add any disclaimers or nuance, despite having opportunity to do so. So I will ask directly:

What is your view of those who freely choose prostitution?

What is your view, specifically, of a tenured professor who supplements her income with prostitution vs Mary Kay or delivering pizzas?

Would you like to see “sex work” become as respected as other forms of employment?

What level of sexual harassment is inherent in the nature of sex work?

I have not found this to be true at all. Hence the term “ridiculous”. They’re meant to be inflammatory and preclude, not expedite, further discussion.

I get that you oppose prostitution, but understand that not every prostitute freely chooses to participate. However, you expressed this by stuffing your opinion full of commentary that, yes, is classist and sexist.

From your other posts, I see that you seem to have a desire to eradicate disapproval of sex workers (as well as reduce the harassment that they face on the job), so that sex work is just another safe, clean, respected job option like dentistry or selling peanuts at sporting events (except, perhaps, the customers should be ashamed).

You are seeing what you choose to see. Is there a point in my responding, if you are simply going to construct a mythago-puppet in your head and argue with that? It would save me time and you energy to let you and your imaginary opponent be.

As for Chris Rock, that reminds me of an old Doonesbury cartoon where Boopsie is hesitant about posing for Playboy, with the line about ‘how would they feel if it were their sister or daughter’. The Playboy photographer assures her not to worry, they never use sisters or daughters in Playboy because they don’t want to upset their readers.

One other thing: Parents who accept income from their childrens’ sex work are almost universally despised. It definitely happens (as in Madera’s Family Reunion), but the parents are it’s almost always considered to be doing a Very, Very Bad Thing, about up there with cannibalism.

When Chris Rock says “You got to keep her off the pole!,” he’s expressing what many people consider one of the minimum standards of good parenting. I would prefer that he be more egalitarian and say something about raising sons who don’t patronize strip clubs, of course.

You are correct that there are valid practical concerns about how prosecution (even if it isn’t persecution) of prostitutes could be implemented justly in the real world.

I might quibble about a couple of points you raised (including the fact that entrapment probably runs both ways, and inherently so if prostitution is heavily advertised yet remains illegal), but not with much conviction.

I’m still not quite ready to enthusiastically sign on to carte blanche immunity for only one side of the transaction, however.

Discussions of ethics and social issues usually begin with clear, almost universally-agreed on boundaries on either side with considerable debate on the middle. You’ll find such “ridiculous dichotomies” are the starting point for almost any ethical discussion. For instance when discussing drinking age and age of sexual consent, it’s not a “ridiculous dichotomy” to say that 3 is too young and 30 is too old, but a 17 year old may be able to legally to do neither, one, or both, depending on jurisdiction.

Setting aside the inflammatory Holocaust reference,
The Holocaust reference was not inflammatory in this context: I was just beginning with universally accepted propositions. The specific example came to mind quickly because my mother and I once discussed her babysitter who had stolen bread to survive the Holocaust. Goodwin’s law would be invoked if I compared you, Hugo, Tobias, or the prostitutes to the Nazis, which I had no desire or intention of doing.

“a working-class woman with a GED who turns tricks so she can afford a shiny new truck is OK by your lights, while a Ph.D-holding assistant professor who uses her income as a prostitute to pay for her parents’ comfortable retirement is doing a Bad Thing.”

I also disapprove of a gainfully employed person selling sex to get a “shiny new truck,” but you essentially have captured my position.

Succinctly, I disapprove of flesh trade. I have sympathy toward those who are forced into it (and it’s probably fair to say that a good portion of the workers are coerced in some way, but virtually none of the customers are coerced to participate). I also disapprove of drug pushers, predatory lenders, and Hummer drivers (though I admit that these actions are more a direct violation of others than prostitution is).

From your other posts, I see that you seem to have a desire to eradicate disapproval of sex workers (as well as reduce the harassment that they face on the job), so that sex work is just another safe, clean, respected job option like dentistry or selling peanuts at sporting events (except, perhaps, the customers should be ashamed). We’re going to disagree on this. I think voluntarily choosing to become a sex worker choice is immoral, but I have also done immoral things and don’t despise and dehumanize people who make this choice.

But I do indeed disapprove of people with other options choosing sex work. It violates several concepts of morality, industry / work ethic, and respect for sex and respect for one’s body. I think I’m entitled to these beliefs, and try to keep them free of racisim, sexism, ageism, and classism.

I’m sure Hugo disapproves (gently and silently) of my meat consumption. I’m not yet willing to give up meat, but I concede that I cannot object to his opinion on grounds of racism / sexism / classism, or any other moral principle. My actions are just incompatible with several of his values and beliefs. So it is with sex workers and my values.

Thanks Lynn–that’s precisely what I was saying.

I can’t see an easy argument that works for “sex should not be bought” and does not work for “sex should not be traded for immediate physical pleasure.”