I’m still thinking a lot about the post immediately below this one, and the problematic relationship between veganism and feminism.
Let me reframe the dilemma, as I see it. Feminists are rightly concerned that too many women are too worried about their bodies, too anxious about fat. We are saddened by the huge amount of time and energy our sisters put into the pursuit of an unrealistic, cruel, unattainable ideal. (Let me say again how well Courtney Martin summarizes the problem). Part of the solution, of course, is helping women to see their appetite for food as fundamentally good. Feminism, at its core, rejects the notion that our longings to be full, to be satisfied, to have pleasure, are sinful and need to always be repressed.
But veganism demands intense scrutiny of labels. While it demands that scrutiny and mindfulness in the name of avoiding cruelty rather than in the pursuit of thinness, the end result is that the compulsive dieter and the vegan may both end up spending a great deal more time than the average person thinking about what they “should” or shouldn’t eat. Both the vegan and the compulsive dieter will have a hard time at restaurants, as they study the menus in hopes of finding something that in the first case has no animal product and in the second case contains the least amount of fat.
There’s another problem, one I’m fighting against in my own life right now. Mythago, who bluntly tells me where I’m right and where I’m not, periodically calls me on both my myopia and my condescension. Though it stings when she does it, I’m old enough to know that we learn more from honest critics than we do from our enthusiastic supporters. As someone who has set himself up to be a role model, who teaches and mentors, I am in regular need of having folks who point out the myriad ways in which I continue to fall short. And one big way in which I continue to fall short is around my continued tendency to quietly judge.
When I first became serious about being a male feminist, I quickly grasped that one of my chief “jobs” would be working to hold other men accountable. I understood I could no longer laugh along at the degrading humor, no longer (ever) darken the door of a strip club, no longer enable another man’s casual mistreatment of the women in his life. I lost more than a couple of guys from my life as a result. And today, one of the hardest things I have to work on is my tendency to judge those men in my peer group (I am easier on teen boys) who continue to lead lives that I view as secretive, irresponsible, chauvinistic. I often find myself quietly — and not so quietly — seething at these guys. Why haven’t they seen the light? How can they still do what they do?
Last Thursday, I stopped at a magazine stand to pick up the May issue of Track and Field News, my subscription having expired. I stood in line to buy my beloved collection of statistics and meet reports; two men (a bit older than me) were in front of me, one with a porn magazine. Perhaps to offset the “shame” of what they were doing, the pair were engaged in that boisterous bonhomie that so many guys use to cover guilt or insecurity, joking about the bodies of the models in the magazine. And while on some days I might have said something, last Thursday my stomach was upset and I was underslept. I just had no energy for an argument. So I stood there and I judged these two, feeling ever more smugly superior as I did so. And while it briefly felt good to judge, I walked away from the newsstand feeling even more nauseated than before, upset at my own temporary inability to love these men. I committed murder in my heart, if only for a moment, on Robertson Boulevard last week. And though it doesn’t happen often, it does occur often enough that I realize I need to be honest and open about this quiet, viciously judgmental streak.
It shows up around food these days too. It’s hard not to judge what other people put in their mouths. It’s not the “don’t they know that will make them fat” judgment, it’s the “don’t they know how that sausage was made” judgment. It’s the “don’t they understand how much pleasure they’re getting from another creature’s suffering” judgment. Sometimes, particularly when I myself am tempted by meat, I find myself flooded with a temporary but intense hostility to those who “don’t get it.” That hostility, alas, is accompanied by a feeling of superiority. Like most repentant libertines who turn to Puritanism of one form or another, I am unpleasantly prone to periodic bouts of holier-than-thou smugness!
But I know to my core that it is possible to live a life of radical justice without consistently condemning (in word or thought) those who fall short of that mark. I write this confession today because I see this tendency to judge, this periodic smugness, as another serious character defect to overcome. Living a spiritual life isn’t about achieving perfection, it’s about peeling another layer off the onion. A better image would be to say that our character defects are like layers of blankets thrown over a lamp. In order to reveal the maximum amount of light, we have to peel off one blanket after another. The light gets progressively brigher the more layers we lift, but there’s always still another one to remove. I’ve removed the blankets of reckless womanizing, drug and alcohol abuse, chronic disregard for my impact on those around me. The current layers that need to be lifted involve the bigger sins of pride and judgment and condescension. I’m making progress, but somedays, especially when I’m hungry or tired, it’s really hard.
So I want to apologize to those whom I have offended. I have worked so hard to create a very different kind of life for myself. I’ve worked hard to match my commitment to justice for women, justice for children, justice for animals, justice for the earth, with my own behavior. I’m by nature drawn to extremes, of course. To paraphrase Goldwater, extremism in the defense of the defenseless is no vice. But that extremism for me is about making a maximum effort to bring about change. It’s not about violence of any kind, and violence can be physical, it can be verbal, and yes, it can even be psychic. I don’t hit people and I don’t call them names, but sometimes in my head, I call down curses on my enemies that would have the psalmist gasping. (I do like the psalms so much, for just this reason.) And though King David himself called on God to break the teeth of his enemies, I’m convinced that God wants better than that from us.
Jesus calls us to live lives of love and justice. I’ve come so far in terms of working to embody that justice in my day-to-day life, in how I eat and make love and spend money. Now I need to redouble my effort to love, delight in, and enjoy the company of those who do not share my values or commitments. I need to work harder on overcoming my judgment of my brothers with their porn magazines or my sisters with their hamburgers (or vice versa). I have been where they are, and God’s grace was poured out on me. I am no better than they, and though I can try and model a different way to think about sex and food, in the end, all of this transformation is meaningless if I don’t genuinely love them.
Something I struggle with in my own life is always, always, always being too hard on myself. And I make value-ridden, snap assumptions about other people too.
In a sense, if I may, we are judging ourselves.* I’m not arguing for “anything goes,” but I think that judging ourselves and judging others is closely linked.
Hard on everyone means hardest on ourselves. Or, hard on ourselves means hard on everyone.
If no one is living up to their potential, is that a projection of self onto others? Is the truth perhaps, that we cannot live up to what we think we must, and we hide this belief even from ourselves? And then we make it everyone else’s problem, too, even so far, sometimes, as everyone else’s problem except for our own?
Perhaps, the first step is self-acceptance. Again, this is not an argument for extreme relativism. But, do we strive through the expression of principled vision, wonder, or joy–or do we strive because of fear and inadequacy, always running, always keeping something at bay?
Self-acceptance comes from insight into one’s own meaning-making. We are the way we are because that’s the way we are… Insight into one’s own meaning making is insight into the meaning-making of others. Understanding one’s self is ultimately accepting one’s self, and, through this, is understanding and accepting others.
*I don’t know you personally, and don’t make any claim to understanding your personality and character. This is just what came to mind after reading your post.
Not judging other people is a tough one, especially because the exercise of judgment itself is something you don’t want to tamp down, IMO. I don’t want to stop recognizing when other people’s choices are wrong (according to my own imperfect standards) - I just want to stop the next step, where I feel smug or inappropriately angry.
I don’t see how you can hope to solve your dilemma as long as you argue for a single standard, a single way to grow. When the path grows more important that the growth, stop feeling gratitude that you found a path that works for you and start demanding that everyone join you on that path, then you have a problem.
I think that the simple reality of our lives demands two forms of humility from us.
First, I know I cannot, by myself, find a universal spiritual path, so I make it a point not to tell people they must, or should, grow in a particular way. Secondly, I try to live my life in a manner that admits the possibility of error on my part. I therefore try to avoid the kind of certainty that would lead me to make jdgments or demands that would have a disastrous effect if they proceeded out of an error.
For example, consider this quote from your previous post:
As someone whose partner might well drop dead, or at least endure long periods of debilitating digestive problems if “forced to go vegan”, this statement simply appalled me. I invite you to contemplate your reaction to someone who defended ponography on the (I suspect accurate) grounds that few people actually die from their participation in it. The desire you have indicated for a certain and perfect path to follow seems to me to have led you to what I regard as a callous dismissal of other people’s lives and happiness. This comes down to the core of what I have tried to challenge in your writings: the idea that the gifts of certainty and perfection lie close at hand. I don’t believe that. A lifetime of activism and professional experience alike convice me that in our own lives, by our own efforts, we can only travel the tiniest distance towards the certain truth or the perfect life. Worse, as we travel towards one truth, we can too easily lose sight of another.
I think the issue here is how exclusive the truth is that Hugo proposes. John, I don’t see a “callous dismissal of other people’s lives and happiness” here, especially since Hugo writes about himself first, and it is the reader’s choice to apply the standards to her/ his own behavior and/ or existential outlook.
Hugo, there is a difference between being discerning and judgmental (Proverbs 14:33 is one of my favorites here), and there is certainly friction between being discerning and having an activist mind that wants to stamp out any sort of perceived or actual injustice. Activism gets judgmental quickly because it tends to focus on our needs first before considering those of other people, and sometimes, compromise and an ethusiastic third solution may be the way to go (after all, small steps in the right direction are still progress). So, modeling your values nonviolently is one step, and it’s a good first step. Spurring discussion etc. to motivate others to evaluate their position may be a great second step.
Just when I was about to de-blogroll you for arrogance and judgment, you come through with a moment of clarity like this–which is also a good call to conversion for me. Thanks. Let’s pray for each other in this delicate dance of seeking fidelity to the Spirit, prophetic voice as she seems to be calling us, and modeling ourselves more deeply on our Teacher, who was gentle and humble of heart.
Is there any end to the drive for personal purity? In some ways, I fear you, Hugo, because I feel so much like you. I cannot look at my shoes without considering whether they were made cruelty free, cannot do many things without realizing that the majority of the world doesn’t have the privilege to do the same, cannot seem to see the world but through the eyes of social justice and a drive for personal purity. While the motivation in itself is good, it’s really hurt my life. I’m becoming useless for real-life things, and I should probably go for therapy to correct my thought patterns.
It’s not the “don’t they know that will make them fat” judgment, it’s the “don’t they know how that sausage was made” judgment. It’s the “don’t they understand how much pleasure they’re getting from another creature’s suffering” judgment. Sometimes, particularly when I myself am tempted by meat, I find myself flooded with a temporary but intense hostility to those who “don’t get it.” That hostility, alas, is accompanied by a feeling of superiority.
Wow. Do you feel the same sort of hostility toward Jewish friends who tell you that, while Yeshua was probably a really nice guy, that he wasn’t the Son of God? Hugo, your veganism is not a mere dietary or health choice—it’s all about your spiritual values. Are you really angry about the dead animal flesh, or does your anger stem from the fact that meat-eating others have different spiritual values?
Hugo, food is more than fuel. Food is about memory, cultural heritage, creativity, connection. Food is intimate, like language, music (or other forms of art), love—perhaps more so because of its immediate necessity. When you ask others to give up meat, you aren’t just asking them to change their diet—you’re asking them to break basic connections that keep them not just physically but mentally whole. You’re asking them to take on, or act on religious beliefs that they don’t have. In other words, you are asking me to give up a simple, daily ritual of cooking and eating what nurtures me, in exchange for the warm pleasure of spiritual beliefs that I just don’t have, and just don’t feel.
And I don’t find that materially different from any of the other lies women are supposed to tell ourselves—for “our own good”, for supposed spiritual benefits, patriotism, femininity, whatever. Remember, there’s also a history of keeping meat from women because the good, tasty calories are supposed to be reserved for men. And because killing is supposedly unfeminine.
John, he said “few” and he’s not advocating forced veganism. The statement you find appalling is a simple and accurate speculative factual statement, and your pornography analogy is a red herring. You overreacted.
La Lubu, the mistreatment of women is as rooted in many cultures as is food, isn’t it? Subservience to men is passsed down grandmother to granddaughter along with the carbonara recipe. If granddaughter can reject the subservience her grandmother taught her, can she not also develop a vegan alternative for the recipe?
I’m angry about the suffering inflicted on animals, and I’m angry when people choose to ignore the process by which the ham or the turkey made it to the table. I’m angry that folks who would retch if they saw the slaughter cheerfully benefit from what they don’t see, what they close their eyes to. When they have a choice to do otherwise, they ought to. I can’t force them; veganism is a path that is hard work (though certainly not only for the privilged, and the legions of non-white, non middle-class vegans out there can make that case far better than I).
I’d like to see mandatory healthy living conditions set for all farm animals, including the guarantee of the freedom to roam and socialize with other creatures. I grew up on a Ranch, I know quite a bit about cows and chickens (the two food animals I was raised around). They are intelligent animals, with capacity for pleasure and pain. So much meat-eating is based on the wilful denial of the reality of animal suffering by those who do have alternatives.
Setting aside the assumption that ‘grandmother passed subservience down’ along with the recipes (that’s a whole ‘nother conversation), the point is, why would she want to adapt traditional recipes to vegan, unless she accepted your premise about the use of animal products (including death-free products like eggs, milk, and cheese) being morally wrong?
Because whatever else veganism is, it includes a lot of deprivation. And you are attracted to that deprivation. You find spiritual sustenance in that deprivation. People who either do not take that hardline view, or who don’t have an affinity for deprivation aren’t going to maintain a vegan lifestyle. There’s a reason there are more omnivores than vegetarians, and more vegetarians than vegans.
I also find it curious that you seem to assume that meat-eaters have no idea how the meat got to the plate. I know “how the sausage was made.” I don’t have a problem with killing for food. It is no more immoral for me to do so than for the bear or wolf. You disagree, and that’s ok. I won’t force meat-eating upon you if you don’t force veganism on me.
See, it’s a religious question. Sorta like those folks who think if only I prayed a little harder, and/or a little more often, I’d come to know that women aren’t fit for the priesthood, or that women have certain “roles” and are unfit for other “roles”. Naah, it isn’t going to happen.
unpleasantly prone to periodic bouts of holier-than-thou smugness? Periodic? Seriously?
Hugo, your life’s work, to this observer, is the construction of a life of self-satisfied moral superiority to replace the pleasure of whatever naughty things you repeatedly cite as excuses for your priggish desire to surveil and condemn even the smallest things about your fellow man (e.g., what his shoes, belt and watchband are made of).
La Lubu, you surely don’t need me to tell you what conditions are like for most dairy cattle in this country, do you? Or how much space most chickens have to move about, even the “cage free” ones? Damn those “real California cows” ads…
There are many wonderful, exciting, interesting things that can be made vegan; I am indeed an ascetic by temperament, but that doesn’t mean all vegans are by any means.
My Christianity and my veganism do intersect. Most vegans — like my friends at PCRM — are not evangelicals as I am. Their veganism is rooted in universal compassion and science, mine is rooted also in my faith. I am hardly a typical vegan, which may make me a poor rep for the movement.
well, i’m a vegan and no longer a christian…so it isn’t necessarily about spiritual things. nor does it have to be.
and even if you don’t think killing for food is immoral (i do not hold the view that killing animals for food is always an evil) the conditions that animals are kept in and subjected to on their way to your table certainly is.
and anyone who has eaten a good vegan meal knows that veganism is so not about deprivation.
Gosh, Flippanter, thanks. Seriously. My goal is to inspire transformation and change, not alienate and frustrate and exasperate. And your comment, regardless of the spirit in which it was intended, reminds me I still have a hell of a lot of work to do. I’ll keep at it. I’m not at the summit yet.
Hugo, I doubt that anybody here wants animals to be kept in inhumane conditions. When my budget allows, I’m quite glad to spend the extra few dollars for the cage-free eggs and maybe someday I’ll be able to afford organic meat, too. But I’m not any sorrier about eating meat than my dog is — and yes, I have reduced our portion sizes and yes, I do make one vegetarian meal a week just for the heck of it.
And I second what La Lubu said: don’t assume we don’t know where the meat comes from. The industrialization of meat production, driven by corporate obsession with profits, has created insanely bad living conditions for animals. (But name me an industry where corporate profit obsessions haven’t had disastrous results…) It can be improved. I’m not an optimistic person by nature, but I’m pretty sure it can be done.
See, Hugo, I told you there was a reason I stick around this blog. ;)
It’s easy to get exasperated when one feels that one sees The Truth and the only reason other people don’t is a) stupidity and/or b) selfish denial. (”If I admitted it’s wrong I’d have to stop doing it.) What’s WRONG with these morons? Can’t they see how animals suffer? What kind of asshole would rather torture a defenseless creature than leave the cheese off their sandwich?
The problem, of course, is that one may not have The Truth, and other people may have perfectly valid reasons for disagreeing.
La Lubu made an interesting point I hadn’t considered about self-denial, though. You DO seem to thrive on setting harsh limits on yourself; veganism, monogamy, physical fitness. It’s as though you feel the only way to grow tall is to make the walls around you so narrow that you can’t possibly move sideways.
I really don’t know how to weigh in on this - honestly, I’m not looking to be a shock commenter here, and I don’t want to do “horrify” for it’s own sake.
I am, though, an unabashed carnivore. I have no intention to change, nor, to be honest, any desire to do so. As far as the meat I eat, I do prefer food I have caught or personally hunted, and have taken to buying privately raised livestock, and having it butchered, because it tastes better.
That’s neither here nor there, though - just full disclosure.
What bothers me about most vegans is a zealotry of a stripe that makes Randall Terry look like a milquetoast and shrinking violet.
At best, 99.9% of the vegans I know are capable of sucking the joy out of a wet dream. I have been insulted, had to endure snide comments, faux vomiting, histronics, have witnessed felonious vandalism, and have been assaulted on a couple of occasions when I was in school. I have been told in ominous terms how my hamburger will - one day - be regarded as the capital murder it is, and had those people express the wish to be the one that flips the switch on me when I pay for my “sins.”
So - yeah. If you’re worried about your veganism making you seem judgemental - there is a real concern.
I don’t think “inspiring transformation and change” is a realistic goal for those of us who happen not to be Saint Francis, and the ambition is no less off-putting than it would be if it were aimed at pitching for the Giants or a managing director’s office at Morgan Stanley. It smacks of arrogance, and in the case of the man who makes a point of condemning his past self over and over again, a certain variant of conspicuous non-consumption.
Hey, Hugo, in all this, I thought you might like to hear that I like you. You’re interesting and obviously aiming for something higher. One thing that frustrates me is seeing that no matter what I do, I’ll never be completely personally pure. No matter how hard I try, there will be some part of my life that later generations will find abhorrent. Realizing this can make me go into some pretty awesome contortions in trying to root out personal failings, but at some point, I really do need to focus on just living, because for me at least, this process makes me depressed and ineffective.
I am also skeptical about how much an individual can really do. I’m convinced that free-will is actually available to us. Rather, I think we just make up good rationalizations for whatever we do. Recent brain studies have shown that there is brain activity toward a certain decision before people are consciously aware of their decision. I see it as if we are traversing hilly terrain: we can try to set our direction, but we cannot change the terrain. I personally limit my meat consumption, but I’d have to effectively cut my family out of much of my life to become a vegan because they are such meat eaters, and eating meat is an intrinsic family ritual. Our family ancestors had no choice but to eat meat because of geography, and that cultural heritage still exists, even though we could survive today without meat. Many in my family hunt, fish, and raise their own food, so we are fully aware of where food comes from.
That’s where you and I disagree, Flippanter. I do think we are called to grow and change, though each of us will do that differently. We all have one or two blankets to lift off the lamp, one or two unpleasant characteristics that make us either unhappy or occasionally unpleasant to be around. While perfection isn’t possible in this life, progress is.
“I’m convinced that free-will is actually available to us.”
oops, that should be I’m not completely convinced that free-will is actually available to us.
“I’m convinced that free-will is actually available to us.”
oops, that should be I’m not completely convinced that free-will is actually available to us.
Dang, John, I liked it better the first time! ;-)
So - yeah. If you’re worried about your veganism making you seem judgemental - there is a real concern.
I don’t think I get this from Hugo’s writing. I mean, this is an eponymous blog hosted by someone who writes on subjects about which he is passionate and on which many reasonable people disagree.
Actually, one thing that amuses me is that among the categories of people that are considered judgmental, Christians, feminists and vegans are probably at the top of the list, so one would expect an individual at the intersection of all three to be pretty judgmental.
And yet, someone who writes things like this:
Though it stings when she does it, I’m old enough to know that we learn more from honest critics than we do from our enthusiastic supporters. As someone who has set himself up to be a role model, who teaches and mentors, I am in regular need of having folks who point out the myriad ways in which I continue to fall short. And one big way in which I continue to fall short is around my continued tendency to quietly judge.
regularly, and who admits very freely to mistakes and shortcomings, does not seem all that judgmental or unforgiving.
On the subject of veg(etari)anism, I think it would help people - both carnivores and others - to observe the life cycle of an animal raised for food from birth to slaughter. Some meat eaters would stop, and I suspect very few veg(etari)ans would change their ways, but everyone would be better informed and their dietary choices would be based in truth rather than ignorance. Few of us live on farms nowadays so this is not as realistic as it would have been 50 or 100 years ago.
Hugo, even if we don’t have free will, it seems better for us to fool ourselves into thinking we have it. Fatalism isn’t good. Excuses and blaming are not good. I’ll try to avoid gratuitously contributing to the pain of animals.
Have you any thoughts regarding fair trade? I’ll still wear my Skechers, but I don’t think I’ll buy any more.
Many of these socially conscious actions are more about ourselves than they are about the objects of the actions. Sure, not laughing at a sexist joke does benefit women in general in some minuscule way, but it benefits us personally much more, because we have the satisfaction of not being assholes.
To quote C.S Lewis’ Mere Christianity, “If anyone would like to acquire humility, I can, I think, tell him the first step. The first step is to realize one is proud. And a biggish step, too. At least, nothing whatever can be done before it. If you think you are not conceited, it means you are very conceited indeed.”
I’ve read the book several times over and that’s the only line I remember, word for word. That last sentence, at least.
I have little to add on the subject of veganism and animal rights. I am a meat eater, as you are well aware. I don’t have any intention of giving it completely up in the near future. I am thinking about giving up beef, though, but that’s another subject altogether.
Although I disagree with some of your views on animal rights, I must say that I never thought you were arrogant or smug about them. Why? You openly write about your stuggles with pride. You realize you have a problem with it. You are, by Lewis’ definition, on the right path to aquiring humility. And you’re all about taking baby steps on good paths. Plus, you didn’t lecture me when I ate chicken in front of you. It’s all good.
So - yeah. If you’re worried about your veganism making you seem judgemental - there is a real concern.
I don’t think I get this from Hugo’s writing. I mean, this is an eponymous blog hosted by someone who writes on subjects about which he is passionate and on which many reasonable people disagree.
Now? No. A couple years from now?
I know one person - vegan by medical necessity, rather than from any moral motivation - who I would not classify as a sanctimonious, self-righteous, prig with terrorist sympathies. Over and over again I have watched as people in my life went vegan and gradually turned from enthusiastic, to cajoling, to preachy, to snide, to withdrawing altogether because they felt “How can I associate with murderers?”
Consider the statement “Meat is Murder.” This is not a fringe sentiment among vegans; in fact it it is rather mainstream. What moral shades of gray does this allow?
djw: I stand by what I said. Period.
Hugo, I almost didn’t post on this, because I didn’t want to start a debate on diet. But….on this post, you clearly indicated that your knee-jerk internal response of harsh judgement bothers you; that you regard it as an obstacle in your path. I think you’re also aware that your unhealthy relationship with food in your past is intertwined with your first reaction towards seeing others indulge in meat.
All I’m suggesting is that you think of attitudes around food as part and parcel of a spiritual divide, so that instead of dredging up a judgemental, hostile attitude about others’ food choices (an ingrained habit from your past), you replace it with another, healthier ingrained habit from your past and present—religious tolerance.
You can’t walk my path for me—but you can walk your own in peace.
Oh, and since I don’t get to post too often (my computer died, RIP), happy soon-to-be birthday. I’m looking forward to turning forty too!
Gonzman, I just want to say, I have a completely different experience from you. About half my social circle is vegan, and I’m not. I eat meat. I don’t really agree with most of the arguments for veganism or vegetarianism. 90% of the time my friends never say anything sanctimonious or mean. Generally they’re quite respectful, and I try to be the same.
The rare occasions when someone I know does try to “convert” me to veganism are invariably when they’re new to it, too, and they’re sometimes rude about it, but once they get that I have my reasons for not being vegan and that they aren’t going to change them, they back off.
Your experience with vegans is unfortunate, but I’m not sure that it’s all that representative. There certainly are sanctimonious pricks who are vegan out there, and I’ve had to endure a few.
It’s funny, I’ve had to endure far more “sanctimonious pricks” to try to convert me back from my almost-veganism (I still, rarely, eat eggs, though I try to pick up the local farm variety) … people have gone pretty crazy on me … “BUT HOW COULD YOU GIVE UP CHEESE?!?” they asked … and now that I’ve given up meat, it’s the same thing … and I’ve never pushed anyone to do either of the above, except when they expressed interest and I said they should try it for a month and see how they feel. Living a more cruelty-free lifestyle isn’t easy, though, and some people don’t want to expend the effort (and it does take some effort). Anyway, I never bother people to change what they’re doing unless they express interest in it.
What I am talking about iss the … schmuck … who ran up to me when I was leaving the food court and knocked my Arby’s bag out of my hand, and stomped on it screaming “Meat Stinks!” (And was shocked when I filed a complaint and had him locked up). The Animal Rights people who vandalized a local meat market - repeatedly - to the tune of about $30,000. The Activist who spray painted the (fake) fur coat of a lady I was the escort for (and was shocked beyond belief when I jacked his jaw and held him for police), the whackos who let my Guinea Hens loose over and over, not quite realizing that they come home every time, the whiney Vegan who used to post plaintive “Can’t we do just ONE murder-free gathering?” every time a company lunch, dinner, etc was posted, and would make a show of eating from a bag salad and making gagging noises when she did attend, PETAn who dumped paint on the stir-fry I was having in a college food court (Another one shocked that his vandalism and assault was prosecuted - he decided to be a martyr and got a year in jail for it. And he still wound up having assets seized to cover the cost of my meal, the replacement thereof, and punitive damages. Yes, I am vindictive that way.) The Vegan cousin who walked out of a wake and subsequently refused to attend the funeral of an aunt of ours because she was “offended” by meat products on the table, and that people would “Rub her nose in genocide.” Same cousin had to have her child taken away because she would have let him die rather than use animal derived insulin, and he did not react well to the Humulin types.
You’re right, Katie. I shouldn’t have used “Sanctimonious Prig.” And I hereby apologize to Sanctimonious Prigs everywhere for my defamation of them by lumping them in with such people.
Gonz, I know a lot of vegans, none of whom would ever behave that way. I am sorry you have run into such folks. Trust me, they are no more representative of vegans than Marc Lepine was of MRAs.
Katie–”I still, rarely, eat eggs, though I try to pick up the local farm variety”
Mild curiosity compels me to chime in on this one…are there any ethical vegans out there who are also pro-choice and still actually have a problem with eating chicken eggs? Just wondering if anybody’s priorities are really that screwed up.
I’m a longtime lurker coming out of the woodwork to express my agreement with this comment:
You’re one of my favourite bloggers, but I had been thinking about no longer visiting your blog due to the smugness of a couple of your recent entries– the one about monogamy, especially. There was just a touch too much condescension in there for me to stomach.
One of my favourite things about you is how self-reflective you are. I really appreciated this entry. Thanks for sharing these thoughts, and for giving us all something to think about.
^^”Self-aware” sounds better than “self-reflective”, so please pretend I said that instead. Heh.
Hugo, as much as I agree that “Not all Vegans are like that” the whole concept of “Meat is Murder” is far from a fringe sentiment among Vegans/ARAs. The whole sentiment that such things should be illegal is a majority opinion, and when we talk about “illegal” we are not talking about confiscating my hamburger and fining me $25 for public barbequeing.
“A rat is a pig is a dog is a boy.” This is where such things proceed from. So where are you going with your vegan sentiments, with your passion for animals? Are you going to be satisfied with “If you don’t want to eat meat, don’t order a hamburger?” Or are you going to become an apologist for people who commit acts of bombing against steakhouses? Or do you eventually want to see a cookout site being descended on by SWAT teams and CSI trying to solve the “murder” of the animal being cooked so the offenders can be jailed for life without parole? (Since I know you personally don’t believe in Capital Punishment.)
The comparison to abortion keeps coming up here, but it is an apt one. The pro-lifers see a fetus as human and worthy of protection. So do the Animal rights/Vegans see animals as worthy of legal protection.
So - how far are you on that scale?
Wow Gonzman, you have encountered some pretty unhinged animal-rights advocates. I feel fortunate that the veg(etari)ans I have met have behaved respectfully to others.
“Can’t we do just ONE murder-free gathering?”
According to Emily Post, I believe the proper professional response to that is: “Can’t we do just ONE sanctimonious twat-free gathering?”
Practicing something in your personal life is great; sharing it with others who care or who ask, also fine. Pushing it on friends and co-workers who didn’t ask for it is pretty obnoxious - no different from prosyletizing for your chosen religion at work.
The Chief, you’re conflating two different things. Vegans don’t eat animals products (usually) because they believe that the production process for animal products is cruel to the animals.
Given that both the dairy and egg production industries generally wind up slaughtering excess animals at, or shortly after birth (roosters and bobby calves), this seems to be a fairly consistent belief.
In other words they’re not at all concerned with the potential chicken.
Well, Tyler, when you become convinced that something is a moral issue, with a definitive and objective right and wrong, that does lead there.
And as far as “unhinged” goes, I’d say that more acts of terrorism in terms of both like and property damage have been done by animal rights people alone - let alone any of the other eco-activists - than has ever been dreamed of by Operation Rescue and their ilk.
Guess it depends on if it is your ox being gored - or doing the goring - or not, eh?
I think this quote applies here.
“Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.” (Andre Gide)
I am quite scared of people who are so convinced that they are right that they would do the things you describe. Debate, persuasion and passionate argument are fine - for those who are willing to be part of the conversation. Assault, not so much.
I’m angry that folks who would retch if they saw the slaughter cheerfully benefit from what they don’t see, what they close their eyes to. When they have a choice to do otherwise, they ought to.
And since I have a choice, I do otherwise. 90% of the meat I eat, I killed myself or know the person who did.
on a much more innocuous note, are you a larabar fan?
Yes, I like Lara Bars. Very tasty, very vegan.