One question that those of us who are male feminists are bound to get asked over and over again: “What’s there for men in feminism?” The Chief asks a version of that question below Monday’s post:
Hugo, particularly, loves to preach on how men CAN change. He’s weak on providing the reasons why we SHOULD. To put it crassly, what’s in it for us?
I suppose I could quote Aristotle to the effect that virtue is its own reward, but something tells me that wouldn’t go very far.
I do answer this question regularly, as I’m asked it semester in and semester out. As most any serious feminist will tell you, feminism is about reconfiguring the culture in order to create greater equality between men and women. For most feminists, it’s also about liberating both men and women from the chains of sexism and patriarchy. As countless men in the pro-feminist movement have pointed out, oppressing women doesn’t make most men nearly as happy as one might imagine. We make a huge mistake when we assume that to be complicit in injustice brings joy and fulfillment. Yes, the benefits of living in a sexist culture are there for most men — but most men are so accustomed to taking these benefits for granted that they derive little if any sense of satisfaction from their own privilege.
When I meet with young men, I hear the same lament over and over again: “Why won’t women trust me? Why won’t women smile at me? I”m not a predator, I’m just a nice guy. Why am I always guilty until proven innocent?” I’ve answered those questions before: read “Guilty until Proven Innocent” and “No Right to be Assumed Harmless”.
When men work to transform themselves, to become genuine egalitarians in the bedroom, the boardroom, and cleaning the bathroom, they make the world a better place for themselves as well as for the women with whom they interact. When men challenge other men’s catcalls, porn use, leering stares and rude comments, they work to eliminate the very things that cause so many women to be justifiably mistrustful of so many men. Many men’s rights activists (MRAs) decry the epidemic of t-shirts that say things like “Boys are mean, throw rocks at them” or simply “Boys lie.” I’m not fond of those shirts myself, and I don’t think they’re in the least bit funny. But I recognize that in addition to reflecting an adolescent desire for attention, they reflect a legitimate anger, a legitimate fear, a legitimate frustration on the part of many women with men.
Quite a few men I know would love to be trusted more. They’d love to have their friendly “hellos” returned; they’d like it if everyone, male or female made eye contact with them and returned their smiles. They’re depressed by the way so many women respond to them, with guarded distance. Some of them become angry at women, blaming the targets of sexism for not being more warm and open to those who might well hurt them further. But the wiser ones understand that creating a world where men are trusted, believed, and smiled at involves changing the basic rules of masculine behavior.
One of the cardinal rules of American maleness is “Don’t call another man on how he treats women.” Men co-sign each other’s bad behavior far too frequently; the end result is that the “nice guy” who doesn’t harass women is rightly lumped into the same group as the jerk who does. Boys, if you’re not actively part of the solution you are — at best — passively part of the problem. If you’re respectful, friendly, honest and thoughtul to women in your interactions with them, but you remain silent while your male friends and relations behave otherwise, then you’ve got no right to complain about women’s suspicion!
I’m tired of living in a world where a man who wants to work with small children is automatically presumed to be a pedophile; I’m tired of living in a world where folks worry that the embraces I give the boys and girls in my youth group have a perverse, ulterior motive. But simply pleading my innocence isn’t enough. The incidences of abuse, the incidences of betrayal, the incidences of profound irresponsibility on the part of men in positions of trust aren’t just anecdotal — they’re overwhelming. And the answer for those of us who are trustworthy and long to have others know it isn’t to blame other people for being suspicious. It’s to work doubly, triply hard to create an authentically feminist culture in which men hold each other accountable, in which bad male behavior is immediately called out by other men.
In his comment, The Chief compares men to wolves. Just as its not easy to make a carnivorous wolf into a herbivore, he doesn’t think it’s easy — or even desirable — for men to change their essential nature. (I’m not a great believer in anyone’s essential nature, and have written umpteen times of the ways in which biology is used to excuse passivity and defeatism in the face of sexual injustice.) But it’s true that a great many women do see men as being like wolves, and a great many men do behave in ways that give women reasons for thinking that lupine comparison is apt. The damage predatory male behavior does to women is obvious. But what’s less obvious is that the “lone wolf” of lore is a symbol of isolation. I know a lot of guys who’ve tried to be lone wolves, tried to live up to the masculine ideal of the strong, silent, sturdy oak. Most of them, as Thoreau pointed out, lead lives of quiet desperation. Most of them, especially as they age, cope with an alternating sense of numbness and profound pain.
A sexist culture leaves men cut off from their own pain. Years and years of hearing “boys don’t cry” leaves many men in their teens and twenties in a state of permanent numbness, with only anger and lust as identifiable emotions still flowing through them. Feminism — with its insistence that men are as entitled to emotional expression as women — liberates men from the awful standard of “lone wolf-hood”. It allows us to stop being ciphers and become human beings, complete and whole and kind and good. It allows us to balance our strength with our humanity.
I am a feminist because I see organized feminism as one of the great vehicles for social justice and personal transformation. I am a feminist because I want to see a world in which both men and women are free to become complete people. When we shut down women’s anger, women’s desire, women’s impetuousness — we create half-people. When we shut down men’s tenderness, men’s vulnerability, men’s empathy — we create half-people. Half people alternately long for a partner to complete them, and resent the hell out of those partners for being able to do for them what they could not do for themselves. It makes for a pretty miserable existence, characterized by the strange and odious way in which men and women simultaneously long for and loathe each other. That’s not nature, that’s a social construct that needs to be dismantled.
I’m a feminist because I want to create a world where men and women alike can realize their potential; I’m a feminist because I believe that our potential is not directed or confined by our chromosomes or our secondary sex organs. My penis and my Y chromosome do not destine me to be unreliable, predatory, and emotionally inarticulate. My wife’s uterus and her estrogen do not limit the horizons of her professional or athletic ambition. Feminism is, as we’ve all heard, the radical notion that women are people. But it’s also the radical notion that men are people too, complete human beings, with the same range of emotions and the same capacity for empathy and self-control as any woman.
Feminism frees men to become truly complete human beings. And there’s an amazing payoff in that.
Note: You don’t have to be a feminist to comment here, but misogynist broadsides and anti-feminist bromides — as well as personal attacks — are out.
I dislike CERTAIN aspects of traditional American masculinity. It hurts to know that my dad, for example, thinks showing his emotions either through hugging or talking about feelings is a sign of weakness and/or immaturity. I made a mistake in telling him that my boyfriend regularly expresses his feelings, and he called him a “metrosexual.” I don’t think he meant that as a bad thing, but it implies that men who show their feelings either physically or verbally are “lesser” men. I think one of the reasons my boyfriend embraced feminism right along with me was because feminism gave him that freedom. I can’t speak for MRAs, even though I sure as hell live with one, but feminism has definitely made my romantic relationship better.
On the other hand, though, if I have sons, I would like them to be active in Boy Scouting. There are certain elements of traditional masculinity that are very good. Honor, commitment, respect, skillfulness — I think BSA highlights a lot of good aspects of traditional masculinity. I sometimes regret that Girl Scouting wasn’t more like BSA!
Yeah, but the point is that honor, commintment, respect and skillfullness aren’t just good for men, they’re good for everyone. (Although I hear you with wanting GS to be like BS: while they were learning to throw hatchets, we were making oragami :p Then again, I like how GS don’t care if your a lesbian, and I dislike how BS does).
While I think that feminism is good for society, I really wish there WAS a parallel movement for Men. An MRA group that is legitimately about their rights, and not about their priveleges. Something to address the culture of machismo and anti-intellectualism, and how it harms them instead of women. Feminism really is women focused, and quite frankly, it should be. But men should have their own group, and allies itself with feminism (much like how GLBT rights and feminism go hand in hand, yet aren’t the same).
And the men’s movement has tried to establish itself in positive ways. There are many, many wonderful men’s groups that incorporate pro-feminist principles and focus on male issues — I’ve belonged to quite a few. But they tend to be small, and they tend to be overwhelmingly led by middle and upper-middle class white professional men between 30-60.
My ex-girlfriend was in the boy scouts (the Canadian ones, not BSA). Apparently they had no problem letting her in, and to this day it’s something she’s glad she did.
While I think that feminism is good for society, I really wish there WAS a parallel movement for Men. An MRA group that is legitimately about their rights, and not about their priveleges. Something to address the culture of machismo and anti-intellectualism, and how it harms them instead of women. Feminism really is women focused, and quite frankly, it should be. But men should have their own group, and allies itself with feminism (much like how GLBT rights and feminism go hand in hand, yet aren’t the same).
You know, I’ve been thinking the same thing for awhile, and I’m a bit stumped as to how to make it happen. I’ve met A LOT of men who feel the same way, but pretty much every organized “pro-feminist men’s group” I’ve ever seen has mostly limited itself to doing volunteer work to support the women’s movement. Which there’s nothing wrong with, but there’s a lot of concerns that are left largely ignored.
So, here’s a question for other commenters here (and Hugo): How can pro-feminist dudes go about creating this movement? I’ve done a lot of grassroots activism, but I am not sure how to how to approach these issues from an activist standpoint rather than from an individual, in my own life standpoint.
And the men’s movement has tried to establish itself in positive ways. There are many, many wonderful men’s groups that incorporate pro-feminist principles and focus on male issues — I’ve belonged to quite a few. But they tend to be small, and they tend to be overwhelmingly led by middle and upper-middle class white professional men between 30-60.
Would you mind at all making a post (at some point when you have time to write about it) about these groups and your experiences with them, Hugo? I’d really like to learn more about these groups.
Labyrus, here’s one post on the subject from just about a year ago:
http://hugoschwyzer.net/2006/06/29/tolerating-not-acting-out-notes-on-a-mens-group/
Thanks, Hugo
Along similar lines, this might be of interest to some folks here.
I think that defensiveness in females can cut them off from their emotions in really devastating ways. Very defended women can be difficult for not only men, but also women to reach — it’s like talking to someone who’s behind a wall.
And I think it’s really difficult for young women — I was defended as hell in my 20’s. The young women I meet today are extremely defended, much more so than I ever was at their age. I think feminism can help mentor younger women so they can relate to people in a more engaged fashion, but also know where to set the boundaries. That comes with age, but mentoring could help speed up that process.
I don’t think it helps when men compare themselves to wolves. I sort of laugh that stuff off as the way some men can talk, but I wouldn’t have in my 20’s. My friends in their 20’s would stiffen up and say: “See! Told you so!” And if biology is going to be invoked by those who claim “wolf nature,” I go back to my point that adult male humans have fully-developed frontal lobes in their brain that can override their predatory behavior.
Do you mean “defensive”?
Yes, “being defended” is a term that I use to mean one is terribly defensive emotionally, usually as a result of being distrustful of other people. I don’t mean that I defended, as in packing heat, or that emotionally defensive women that I know are doing likewise. Sorry for my lingo being a source of confusion.
Let me put it succintly:
You’ve erected a great straw man with your answer to “What’s in it for us?” Being from the Chief’s side of the street, though, I got it immediately.
Feminism has long promised “Equality for men too! Freedom from shackles, yadda, yadda, yadda…” By gum you talk a heck of an egalitarian ideal.
However when push comes to shove…
To be blunt, we long ceased to trust you. Because every single time there has been a woman vs. man question of rights, et. al. it comes down to “Women first. Let the girls win. We must redress inhjequalities of a hundred years ago whom everyone from then is DEAD. And so on. And so forth.”
I will give you one example: The Divorced Father’s group I used to run eventually had to meet in a garage. Why? Because we were chased out of a mall, a school, and a library by feminists, because we didn’t allow women. (Divorced FATHERS…)
This is one example of many, and those examples are legion.
I imagine all would be fine with you if we did our thiong under your guidance, and tutelege, and approval. But we don’t - and there is your real problem.
We’re not doing it for you. We’re doing it for US.
You wanty joining or something? You chased us away. So … you first.
Gonz, if I have nothing to offer, then you have no reason to labor so dutifully in my comments section!
Hugo, most of this is what you refer to as “epistemic gulf” and a refusal to accept each other’s basic premises (for me, the premise that if you’re not a feminist you automatically enjoy the oppression of women is the biggie I won’t sign off on). But I do have to ask this: Where are you meeting these men who are wringing their hands over women not smiling back at them, and where are these men meeting such surly, paranoid women? Never happened to me, not once (though if it did and if I were trying to date one, I’d be grateful I could immediately cross her off my list of possibilities).
Maybe it’s a west coast thing, or a major population center thing, though it never happened during the time I lived in Denver or St. Louis, either. I did get the occasional dirty look from a black person because I’d committed the sin of being white, but I never let it bother me in the slightest. My default setting when meeting new people is “I hope we can be friendly, or at least civil. But if not, no biggie. I’ve made it 39 years without you, I think I can make it the rest of the way if need be.”
He compared men to wolves? As usual, anti-feminists are the real man-haters. To say men are uncontrollable animals is to say they don’t deserve to participate in society and civilization. I reject that.
Chief, believe it or not, the sense of not being trusted is the number one complaint I get from the boys in youth group and the college-aged men I work with.
What, precisely, were the divorced fathers ADVOCATING? After listening to about a million men whine about their evil ex-wives who left them with nothing and how they’re paying out the nose with those outrageous alimony, I’d be a little hesitant about letting a divorced father’s group any where near me. I don’t believe, for a second, that it was just that they didn’t let women in.
Hmm, and Chief, you’re politics are showing.
Wow, politics showing on a blog that is at least in part about politics. The media should be informed. And if I understood Gonz right the men weren’t wanting anywhere near you. They were wanting to exercise their right to peacably assemble on public property like a library or school (I’d give the mall a pass to decide who they do or do not want holding a meeting on their premises, assuming it’s privately owned property).
College kids or younger, Hugo? Explains a lot. I wanted every woman in the world to worship me at that age too. Took me a few years to accept that it wasn’t going to happen, and a few more years to realize that I should thank whatever Gods may be for it.
*privelege, I mean. Sorry, I mistyped.
So it’s a matter of privilege if I don’t immediately immerse myself in liberal guilt if every total stranger I meet doesn’t instantly want to be my friend?
Far as I’m concerned it’s a privilege every human being on earth should be allowed. Therapy bills would be a lot lower.
No, it’s a matter of privelege to just be able to write them off, just like it’s a matter of privelege that you think that black people are scowling at you for “the crime of being white”.
So I’m supposed to go up to every woman or non-white male who scowls at me for no reason and say “I’m sorry that people with the same pigmentation or genitalia type as me have treated you or your ancestors badly in the past, what can I do to kiss it and make it better?”
Sorry, not doing that. Got living to do. And as I say, if that’s privilege, it’s a privilege that everybody should allow themselves.
Antigone, to be fair: I actually really think that divorced fathers need some space to vent and all that sometimes, and personally I do think that feminists can be a bit hard on groups like this.
I’ve met way to many people whose downslide into homelessness began with divorce and losing a custody battle to say that anyone ought to be chasing divorced fathers out of meeting spaces. (After all, how many groups of divorced women are there who don’t say nasty things about men? sometimes it isn’t political, it’s just the fact that people who are stressed out need to vent). Fact is, divorced men need support sometimes, and groups of divorced people tend to bitch about their exes. A lot. I may not want them anywhere near me, but they have a right to book a meeting space.
I have no problem letting any group book a meeting space. Having been divorced a few times myself, I know a great deal about the anger that comes at the end of a marriage. But I also know that it’s vital to take responsibility for one’s own part, and not play the part of the outraged victim — too many men do the latter.
Great Writing here Hugo !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I don’t see a broadbased men’s movement (or set of movements) arising out of “helping women” or anything directly related to women. IF a true men’s movement develops over time (in more than small ways as has happened over the past 30 years) it will probably be based upon how men are hurting and losing in many ways in our lives. (It will, of course, need to take in and support feminism within it - not being a MRA or similar type of movement.)
Our pressures as men on other men are probably our biggest problem! We learn that if we don’t conform, we aren’t “real men”. Being bullied and afraid of other men - homophobia and much more hurt us. We fight and kill each other far too often.
Men are weaker in so many ways than women. Our death rates are higher from birth on. We are 80% of the autistic people. We have a harder time learning to control our bodily functions as young children. In schools we have higher rates of attention deficit disorders and many other learning disabilities.
As adults we suffer in so many ways - as isolated individuals - not only the mass killers but also the sad, isolated loners who cause little or no harm to others. Losing our roles as the “head of the household” in many ways, as well as no longer being “the warriors”, and “the breadwinner” has left us with few clear positive models to point to.
I remember after my son Ben was born 20 years ago taking him out - struggling in public in our grocery store and other places. Women - offered assistance in so many ways. Men - would help me get in our out of the store, but otherwise - didn’t see me struggling. What was and is sad to me is that I know and knew then that I had been exactly the same as the other men.
As men we don’t learn to look at life in holistic ways. We see our worlds - as a young boy - ego centered, and later on in other ways in the moment. We (het) men didn’t do AIDS support work - because AIDS wasn’t a “real men’s” disease. We care about the elderly when our parents age or when we age (only).
I hope that we will learn to be more fully human. We will take the positive aspects of traditional masculinity and build in the voids in our lives.
There have been and no doubt are many good men’s groups, but not enough! Our work in Men Stopping Rape, Inc. of Madison, Wisconsin, USA in the 1980’s and beyond was wonderful work. Several of us struggle with some issues on our group blog (www.feministallies.blogspot.com) - and I find this hard - being “united” with the three others who write with me.
Thanks!
Geo, you’d probably enjoy reading Michael Kimmel’s Manhood in America: A Cultural History. Hugo’s recommended it in other posts - if you search “Kimmel” you’ll see what he had to say about it.
The fact that you think that is the reason they’re scowling is a sign of your privelege. You have no way, whatsoever, of knowing that’s why (nor do you know they always are; there is selective bias) they are scowling.
That’s the privelege.
hugo, just wanted to chime in a day late and say this was a great post. i’m reading bell hooks’s “feminist theory: from margin to center” right now, and she continually keeps coming back to this idea - that we have to think more broadly about systems of oppression and domination, and that it’s only through a shared vision of deconstructing those systems that we’re going to get anywhere. because the hierarchial sytem of domination and submission that permeates society ultimately hurts everyone participating in it.
good stuff.
Antigone, when I lived in Denver I worked a job that occasionally took me into places where white faces were few and far between. When you walk into the room, you’re the only white person, you’ve not said or done a thing yet and the group of black men who had been previously talking suddenly stop to stare at you sullenly…well, you draw conclusions. No, I don’t know with 100% certainty they were angry at me because I dared to be white, but if I had to bet the farm….
But let me try putting it this way: I don’t care what your race is or what your gender is. If I walk up to you as a total stranger and you give me the evil eye I’m not going to care why, I’m just going to move on. I don’t care if it’s because you resent me for my race. I don’t care if it’s because you resent me for my gender. I don’t care if it’s because I accidentally cut you off in traffic yesterday and I never even noticed but you haven’t gotten over it. I don’t care if it’s because you had a bad burrito for lunch and you’re not angry at me at all, this is just your indigestion face.
I have neither the time nor the inclination to find out what’s wrong, and even less time or inclination to try to fix it. Sorry if that dissapoints anybody who hoped their cross-eyed stare was going to ruin my day. And again, I encourage everybody else to enjoy the exact same privilege.
Isn’t the very title of this post (”What’s in it for men?”) proof of men’s sense of entitlement? Too many members of the bepenised gender seem to think that they deserve a cookie just for acting decently.
Ginger, I agree — and please know, I’m responding to the question the way it was worded.
Sometimes, ending oppression means making a case to the oppressor that to do so is in his best interest. I’m okay with that, because I think feminism does legitimately liberate men.
I think this is kind of an exercise in missing the point. I know a great deal of men who by and large “act decently”, and who most feminists wouldn’t have a problem with but who aren’t remotely politically commited to feminism. Most feminist women I know don’t really expect a commitment to feminism from men. They expect them to not be misogynists and to not do sexist things as much as possible.
Actively supporting feminism is not the same thing as simply “acting decently,” and obscuring the difference can have negative consequences. When we need systemic change, and people are only talking individual choices and “acting decently”, real alternatives get ignored.
To put it crassly, what’s in it for us?
Hm. Why should I oppose racism? If being white is exalted and privileged, that helps me and my family, so I shouldn’t oppose racism in any way unless somebody can demonstrate that I’m actually better off if I do. Right, Chief?
Where are you meeting these men who are wringing their hands over women not smiling back at them, and where are these men meeting such surly, paranoid women?
Been on the Internet much? And it’s not “wringing their hands”, it’s full-blown tantrums about how THEY are nice guys and how UNFAIR it is that if they smile at a strange woman, or say hi, or practice their social skills* on women they don’t know, that those women…don’t return the courtesy! Why, sometimes they even walk away, suggesting that the guy in question is not a nice guy! Fucking stuck-up bitches!
*no joke: please see Brandon Berg over at Amptoons
Mythago,
First, I refuse to conflate questioning feminism–especially it’s more radical elements–with racism.
Secondly, people will bitch about anything, especially on the internet. I guess I have a little sympathy for the nice guys in that women so often seem to say they want one thing and then respond to something else, but it’s more the reaction to it all that I question. If I were mentoring one of these young men complaining about a lack of friendliness from women I wouldn’t recommend that he embrace some philosophy that demands that he change every aspect of his personality and assume a lot of guilt for crimes that he never committed, I’d just tell the guy “hey, they’re not all gonna go for you, and you’re not even always going to know why. Write off the ones that don’t, concentrate on the ones that do, you’ll stay a lot saner.”