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	<title>Comments on: What&#8217;s in it for men?</title>
	<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/06/21/whats-in-it-for-men/</link>
	<description></description>
	<pubDate>Thu, 08 Jan 2009 03:45:04 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: The Chief</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/06/21/whats-in-it-for-men/#comment-75627</link>
		<dc:creator>The Chief</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Jul 2007 15:48:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/06/21/whats-in-it-for-men/#comment-75627</guid>
		<description>Mythago,

First, I refuse to conflate questioning feminism--especially it's more radical elements--with racism.

Secondly, people will bitch about anything, especially on the internet.  I guess I have a little sympathy for the nice guys in that women so often seem to say they want one thing and then respond to something else, but it's more the reaction to it all that I question.  If I were mentoring one of these young men complaining about a lack of friendliness from women I wouldn't recommend that he embrace some philosophy that demands that he change every aspect of his personality and assume a lot of guilt for crimes that he never committed, I'd just tell the guy "hey, they're not all gonna go for you, and you're not even always going to know why.  Write off the ones that don't, concentrate on the ones that do, you'll stay a lot saner."</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mythago,</p>
<p>First, I refuse to conflate questioning feminism&#8211;especially it&#8217;s more radical elements&#8211;with racism.</p>
<p>Secondly, people will bitch about anything, especially on the internet.  I guess I have a little sympathy for the nice guys in that women so often seem to say they want one thing and then respond to something else, but it&#8217;s more the reaction to it all that I question.  If I were mentoring one of these young men complaining about a lack of friendliness from women I wouldn&#8217;t recommend that he embrace some philosophy that demands that he change every aspect of his personality and assume a lot of guilt for crimes that he never committed, I&#8217;d just tell the guy &#8220;hey, they&#8217;re not all gonna go for you, and you&#8217;re not even always going to know why.  Write off the ones that don&#8217;t, concentrate on the ones that do, you&#8217;ll stay a lot saner.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: mythago</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/06/21/whats-in-it-for-men/#comment-75385</link>
		<dc:creator>mythago</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Jul 2007 01:53:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/06/21/whats-in-it-for-men/#comment-75385</guid>
		<description>&lt;I&gt; To put it crassly, what’s in it for us?&lt;/I&gt;

Hm. Why should I oppose racism? If being white is exalted and privileged, that helps me and my family, so I shouldn't oppose racism in any way unless somebody can demonstrate that I'm actually better off if I do. Right, Chief?

&lt;I&gt;Where are you meeting these men who are wringing their hands over women not smiling back at them, and where are these men meeting such surly, paranoid women?&lt;/I&gt;

Been on the Internet much? And it's not "wringing their hands", it's full-blown tantrums about how THEY are nice guys and how UNFAIR it is that if they smile at a strange woman, or say hi, or practice their social skills* on women they don't know, that those women...don't return the courtesy! Why, sometimes they even walk away, suggesting that the guy in question is &lt;I&gt;not&lt;/I&gt; a nice guy! Fucking stuck-up bitches!


*no joke: please see Brandon Berg over at Amptoons</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i> To put it crassly, what’s in it for us?</i></p>
<p>Hm. Why should I oppose racism? If being white is exalted and privileged, that helps me and my family, so I shouldn&#8217;t oppose racism in any way unless somebody can demonstrate that I&#8217;m actually better off if I do. Right, Chief?</p>
<p><i>Where are you meeting these men who are wringing their hands over women not smiling back at them, and where are these men meeting such surly, paranoid women?</i></p>
<p>Been on the Internet much? And it&#8217;s not &#8220;wringing their hands&#8221;, it&#8217;s full-blown tantrums about how THEY are nice guys and how UNFAIR it is that if they smile at a strange woman, or say hi, or practice their social skills* on women they don&#8217;t know, that those women&#8230;don&#8217;t return the courtesy! Why, sometimes they even walk away, suggesting that the guy in question is <i>not</i> a nice guy! Fucking stuck-up bitches!</p>
<p>*no joke: please see Brandon Berg over at Amptoons</p>
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		<title>By: labyrus</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/06/21/whats-in-it-for-men/#comment-72505</link>
		<dc:creator>labyrus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 Jun 2007 17:30:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/06/21/whats-in-it-for-men/#comment-72505</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Isn’t the very title of this post (”What’s in it for men?”) proof of men’s sense of entitlement? Too many members of the bepenised gender seem to think that they deserve a cookie just for acting decently.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I think this is kind of an exercise in missing the point. I know a great deal of men who by and large "act decently", and who most feminists wouldn't have a problem with but who aren't remotely politically commited to feminism. Most feminist women I know don't really expect a commitment to feminism from men. They expect them to not be misogynists and to not do sexist things as much as possible.

Actively supporting feminism is not the same thing as simply "acting decently," and obscuring the difference can have negative consequences. When we need systemic change, and people are only talking individual choices and "acting decently", real alternatives get ignored.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Isn’t the very title of this post (”What’s in it for men?”) proof of men’s sense of entitlement? Too many members of the bepenised gender seem to think that they deserve a cookie just for acting decently.</p></blockquote>
<p>I think this is kind of an exercise in missing the point. I know a great deal of men who by and large &#8220;act decently&#8221;, and who most feminists wouldn&#8217;t have a problem with but who aren&#8217;t remotely politically commited to feminism. Most feminist women I know don&#8217;t really expect a commitment to feminism from men. They expect them to not be misogynists and to not do sexist things as much as possible.</p>
<p>Actively supporting feminism is not the same thing as simply &#8220;acting decently,&#8221; and obscuring the difference can have negative consequences. When we need systemic change, and people are only talking individual choices and &#8220;acting decently&#8221;, real alternatives get ignored.</p>
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		<title>By: Required Reading &#124; Elaine Vigneault&#8217;s Diary</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/06/21/whats-in-it-for-men/#comment-72387</link>
		<dc:creator>Required Reading &#124; Elaine Vigneault&#8217;s Diary</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 Jun 2007 11:09:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/06/21/whats-in-it-for-men/#comment-72387</guid>
		<description>[...] Feminism: What’s in it for men? - Awesome article. Just brilliant. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[&#8230;] Feminism: What’s in it for men? - Awesome article. Just brilliant. [&#8230;]</p>
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		<title>By: Hugo Schwyzer</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/06/21/whats-in-it-for-men/#comment-71495</link>
		<dc:creator>Hugo Schwyzer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Jun 2007 23:41:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/06/21/whats-in-it-for-men/#comment-71495</guid>
		<description>Ginger, I agree -- and please know, I'm responding to the question the way it was worded.

Sometimes, ending oppression means making a case to the oppressor that to do so is in his best interest.  I'm okay with that, because I think feminism does legitimately liberate men.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ginger, I agree &#8212; and please know, I&#8217;m responding to the question the way it was worded.</p>
<p>Sometimes, ending oppression means making a case to the oppressor that to do so is in his best interest.  I&#8217;m okay with that, because I think feminism does legitimately liberate men.</p>
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		<title>By: Ginger</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/06/21/whats-in-it-for-men/#comment-71491</link>
		<dc:creator>Ginger</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Jun 2007 23:20:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/06/21/whats-in-it-for-men/#comment-71491</guid>
		<description>Isn't the very title of this post ("What’s in it for men?") proof of men's sense of entitlement? Too many members of the bepenised gender seem to think that they deserve a cookie just for acting decently.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Isn&#8217;t the very title of this post (&#8221;What’s in it for men?&#8221;) proof of men&#8217;s sense of entitlement? Too many members of the bepenised gender seem to think that they deserve a cookie just for acting decently.</p>
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		<title>By: The Chief</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/06/21/whats-in-it-for-men/#comment-71478</link>
		<dc:creator>The Chief</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Jun 2007 22:17:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/06/21/whats-in-it-for-men/#comment-71478</guid>
		<description>Antigone, when I lived in Denver I worked a job that occasionally took me into places where white faces were few and far between.  When you walk into the room, you're the only white person, you've not said or done a thing yet and the group of black men who had been previously talking suddenly stop to stare at you sullenly...well, you draw conclusions.  No, I don't know with 100% certainty they were angry at me because I dared to be white, but if I had to bet the farm....

But let me try putting it this way:  I don't care what your race is or what your gender is.  If I walk up to you as a total stranger and you give me the evil eye I'm not going to care why, I'm just going to move on.  I don't care if it's because you resent me for my race.  I don't care if it's because you resent me for my gender.  I don't care if it's because I accidentally cut you off in traffic yesterday and I never even noticed but you haven't gotten over it.  I don't care if it's because you had a bad burrito for lunch and you're not angry at me at all, this is just your indigestion face.

I have neither the time nor the inclination to find out what's wrong, and even less time or inclination to try to fix it.  Sorry if that dissapoints anybody who hoped their cross-eyed stare was going to ruin my day.  And again, I encourage everybody else to enjoy the exact same privilege.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Antigone, when I lived in Denver I worked a job that occasionally took me into places where white faces were few and far between.  When you walk into the room, you&#8217;re the only white person, you&#8217;ve not said or done a thing yet and the group of black men who had been previously talking suddenly stop to stare at you sullenly&#8230;well, you draw conclusions.  No, I don&#8217;t know with 100% certainty they were angry at me because I dared to be white, but if I had to bet the farm&#8230;.</p>
<p>But let me try putting it this way:  I don&#8217;t care what your race is or what your gender is.  If I walk up to you as a total stranger and you give me the evil eye I&#8217;m not going to care why, I&#8217;m just going to move on.  I don&#8217;t care if it&#8217;s because you resent me for my race.  I don&#8217;t care if it&#8217;s because you resent me for my gender.  I don&#8217;t care if it&#8217;s because I accidentally cut you off in traffic yesterday and I never even noticed but you haven&#8217;t gotten over it.  I don&#8217;t care if it&#8217;s because you had a bad burrito for lunch and you&#8217;re not angry at me at all, this is just your indigestion face.</p>
<p>I have neither the time nor the inclination to find out what&#8217;s wrong, and even less time or inclination to try to fix it.  Sorry if that dissapoints anybody who hoped their cross-eyed stare was going to ruin my day.  And again, I encourage everybody else to enjoy the exact same privilege.</p>
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		<title>By: kate.d.</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/06/21/whats-in-it-for-men/#comment-71459</link>
		<dc:creator>kate.d.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Jun 2007 21:08:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/06/21/whats-in-it-for-men/#comment-71459</guid>
		<description>hugo, just wanted to chime in a day late and say this was a great post. i'm reading bell hooks's "feminist theory: from margin to center" right now, and she continually keeps coming back to this idea - that we have to think more broadly about systems of oppression and domination, and that it's only through a shared vision of deconstructing those systems that we're going to get anywhere. because the hierarchial sytem of domination and submission that permeates society ultimately hurts everyone participating in it. 

good stuff.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>hugo, just wanted to chime in a day late and say this was a great post. i&#8217;m reading bell hooks&#8217;s &#8220;feminist theory: from margin to center&#8221; right now, and she continually keeps coming back to this idea - that we have to think more broadly about systems of oppression and domination, and that it&#8217;s only through a shared vision of deconstructing those systems that we&#8217;re going to get anywhere. because the hierarchial sytem of domination and submission that permeates society ultimately hurts everyone participating in it. </p>
<p>good stuff.</p>
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		<title>By: Antigone</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/06/21/whats-in-it-for-men/#comment-71443</link>
		<dc:creator>Antigone</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Jun 2007 19:31:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/06/21/whats-in-it-for-men/#comment-71443</guid>
		<description>The fact that you think that is the reason they're scowling is a sign of your privelege.  You have no way, whatsoever, of knowing that's why (nor do you know they always are; there is selective bias) they are scowling.

That's the privelege.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The fact that you think that is the reason they&#8217;re scowling is a sign of your privelege.  You have no way, whatsoever, of knowing that&#8217;s why (nor do you know they always are; there is selective bias) they are scowling.</p>
<p>That&#8217;s the privelege.</p>
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		<title>By: Vacula</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/06/21/whats-in-it-for-men/#comment-71423</link>
		<dc:creator>Vacula</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Jun 2007 17:43:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/06/21/whats-in-it-for-men/#comment-71423</guid>
		<description>Geo, you'd probably enjoy reading Michael Kimmel's Manhood in America: A Cultural History. Hugo's recommended it in other posts - if you search "Kimmel" you'll see what he had to say about it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Geo, you&#8217;d probably enjoy reading Michael Kimmel&#8217;s Manhood in America: A Cultural History. Hugo&#8217;s recommended it in other posts - if you search &#8220;Kimmel&#8221; you&#8217;ll see what he had to say about it.</p>
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