As I’ve mentioned several times, I get more email about my “older men, younger women” posts than all the other things I blog about put together. (Student crushes is a distant second, and chinchillas are third).
I got a long letter a couple of weeks ago from a woman in her late forties named “Debra” (not her real name). She tells a by-now very familiar story:
Now, here’s my situation. Within the past couple of years I’ve become
aware of a man a couple of years older than me. From what I can see,
this man is very much like me in many ways–in fact, so much so that
he could be my male twin.
I’m attracted to him. From a distance, I find him intelligent, thoughtful, humorous, honest,
emotionally open, openminded, and kind. And, up until last year, he
was like me in one other important way: he had no relationship. He was
an intelligent, witty man in his later forties, yet he had never been
married and made frequent complaints in public about how all of his attempts
at relationships with women (and he made it clear without using a
sledgehammer that yes, he was attracted to the opposite sex) had ended
in disaster.
Then, last year, suddenly something changed. Out of the blue, Mr. Sad
Sack began seeing a woman. A woman who lived on the opposite coast
from him. Two and a half months
after they began dating, she packed up all her belongings and crossed
the country to move in with him. As of now, they have been together
for a year, and have lived together for ten and a half months
Why do I come to you to ask you what you think of all this? Simply
this: He is 47; she is 22.
This is a long post, so more below the fold.
What I find myself stunned by is both a) how bad knowing he is so
apparently happy in this relationship is making ME feel about myself
and what I have to offer; and b) how disappointed I feel in HIM after
having learned that, despite what I saw in him and sensed about him
and his feelings about women in general, this is turning out to be his
definition of a “dream relationship.” Frankly, he struck me as more of
a feminist than this. He struck me as the type of man who would want a
woman who was roughly his equal–if not in accomplishment or
celebrity, at least in terms of respectability on her own terms for
what she had learned and done and her accumulated wisdom, maturity,
whatever. Certainly he has always appeared to admire and respect his
female peers in his business and not treated them in any sort of a
sexist or belittling fashion. It was one of the reasons he struck me
as being such a respectable, decent specimen of man. Now I find that
while he may admire peer equals and mature women of accomplishment in
his work life, what he appears to value of women in his private life
is not maturity and wisdom, but youth and worshipfulness.
I’ll break in here to note that I’ve blogged about this last bit before; in a post three years ago about Bill Clinton, I wrote:
“I came to the conclusion that Bill Clinton was, in many ways, like a lot of modern American men: he was only capable of treating women with respect when he was not sexually attracted to them. I’m obviously psychologizing here, but I am fairly certain Bill did not lust for Janet Reno, Madeline Albright, or Ruth Ginsburg! In the absence of sexual attraction, he could see these women as people — and thus cheerfully appoint them to high office and rely upon their counsel. Intellectually, he was very much a feminist. But if you’ll forgive the purple prose, like so many men, Clinton’s feminist principles foundered upon the rocks of his libido. He not only objectified Monica Lewinsky, he treated her shabbily; his behavior with Paula Jones was similarly puerile and offensive. (I am aware that there are other issues at play here like education, age, and class — but let’s leave those aside.)”
Debra’s friend is obviously different from Clinton in that he is pursuing a long-term relationship rather than a fleeting extramarital affair. That’s to the good. But the quarter-century gap between Debra’s friend and his new soulmate is still troubling, and Debra’s candid note touches on at least a few of the things that are so problematic about it.
No, I don’t think we have some sort of moral obligation to date solely within our chronological peer group. I don’t think, for example, that men in their late forties should refrain from dating women in their early twenties solely because women in their forties need suitable dating partners and don’t want to lose out to women half their age. Indeed, I’m not altogether comfortable with relationships between much older women and much younger men either, for the same reasons — it’s just that the Demis and Ashtons aside, they are far less comoon and thus far less of a feminist concern.
But I do think we have an ethical obligation to match the desires of our hearts and the longings of our loins (sorry, it’s Purple Prose Monday) to our broader commitments. That doesn’t mean I expect anyone to be able to turn their libido on and off like a light switch! But at the same time, I don’t believe we can “rest our case on the Gods of desire”, as the lecherous professor in J.M. Coetzee’s brilliant Disgrace claims to do. While we may not be able to help wanting what we want, we also have to ask ourselves how what we want fits in with our larger sense of purpose in this life. That sense of purpose, that sense of commitment to goals and ideals, ought to be sovereign — if not over our momentary longings, at least over our life choices.
What does that mean for Debra’s pro-feminist friend who has fallen for a woman less than half his age? Well, the story of the middle-aged man trying to rediscover his youth by making love and trying to build a life with a much younger woman is an old story. Traditionally, it ends badly for the man, often in the kind of disgrace and humiliation that Coetzee captures so perfectly in the novel that clinched him the Nobel. As much as it offends some of my readers when I say it, I’ll paraphrase Donald Justice’s words again: men at forty learn to close softly the doors of rooms they won’t be coming back to. Clearly, some men don’t learn that lesson. I’ve written about that before as well. Frequently, they end up getting dumped by the younger woman. It’s pretty darned hard to stay on a pedestal for long. Sooner or later, she’s very likely to say to him something like: “When I first met you, I thought you were so magnificent, everything I ever wanted; now I see you’re just another man.” She’ll walk away disillusioned and he’ll be left shattered, embarrassed, perhaps disgraced. The dirty old man is revealed to be a fool with knobby knees, erectile dysfunction, and a sad little belly with white hairs on it. It’s an old and familar story.
There’s no magic phrase to use to comfort those in Debra’s situation. Obviously, hers is a commonly heard complaint among women in their forties and fifties: men their age often seem primarily interested in younger (often much younger) women. We can talk about the various reasons why older men chase younger women (ego gratification, a desire to “redo” troubling aspects of their own past, the longing for youth, an unwillingness to be pushed by a peer, the desire to be both mentor and lover), but knowing why so many men make these decisions is often of little solace. Debra concludes:
I don’t know. I just know it’s so hard. And I can’t stop thinking, and
worrying: What happens to him if it’s not as great as it seems? Will
he be devastated? Doesn’t he deserve more? If she ever left him, would
he be destroyed? Would he learn, or would he just make the same
mistake over again?
And what if he IS happy? How do I, then, keep his bliss from making me
feel worthless? Have I spent almost 25 years going from “young and
dumped” to “old and no longer desirable” with nothing in between?
I feel cheated.
What do you make of this? Am I wrong to feel the way I do? Because I
feel a tremendous sense of guilt about it, yet at the same time, a
tremendous sense of anger and resentment. And worry….and, yes, love.
As perverse as it may seem, love.
It’s interesting that Debra uses the word “cheated”; it’s the same word that Pacific used in this controversial comment below my “closing the doors” post:
I suppose that, when I was younger, I was too picky when it came to looking for a mate, but at least I had the advantage of youth and could expect to find a young woman by default.
My preferences have not aged with the rest of me. Since I’ve never had anyone, I’m still looking for the young girlfriend I’ve never had. I feel cheated.
Pacific is 50, a couple of years older than Debra’s friend.
Debra feels cheated that the object of her affection, a male peer, is in love with a gal too young to remember when the first shuttle blew up. Pacific, older still, feels cheated because he never got to be with the young hot woman that society tells him was his due. Since they both feel cheated, are they both equally deserving of sympathy?
The feelings are similar. Both Pacific and Debra feel frustrated, anxious that they may now be too old to attract the people they really want. But Pacific’s desire for “the young girlfriend he never had” reeks of male entitlement. He doesn’t have a specific gal in mind, it seems, just someone “younger”. His preferences, he tells us, haven’t aged with the rest of him. As I’ve said before, I am convinced to the depths of my core that one key marker of maturity in adult men is to be sexually drawn to one’s peers:
For me, the truth is simple: since I hit puberty, I have never experienced sexual attraction to someone old enough to be my mother or young enough to be my daughter… It makes me instinctively angry, both on behalf of the girls who are all too often horrified by inappropriate sexual attention and on behalf of those “older” women who are forced to worry obsessively about losing their sex appeal as a consequence.
Pacific has failed to grow up in a vital area; I’m not in the least bit sympathetic to his feeling of being “cheated.” I am sympathetic to Debra’s, and not out of some reflexive sympathy for women. She longs for a peer; Pacific longs for a woman substantially his junior. Debra wants intimacy with an equal, Pacific doesn’t. And frankly, it’s easier to give direction to Pacific: “get over yourself and look for a woman in your peer group with whom you can have a real connection. If they all seem too ‘old’ for you, it may be that you’re not mature enough for them.” For Debra, the answer is harder — other than validating the righteousness of her frustration and her pain, there’s little solace I can offer.
None of us escaped our childhoods — or our later youth — unscathed. We all have our scars, our disappointments, our “coulda, woulda, shouldas”. We all have the story of the “one who got away”, or the road we didn’t take, or the opportunities missed. Many regret saying yes to things to which they ought to have said no; an equal number regret saying no to things to which they ought to have said yes. But at some point, people, we have to stop being hostage to our pasts. I’m sympathetic to Debra because she’s ready to move forward, ready for love, ready for commitment with a peer. I’m less sympathetic to Pacific because his readiness is rife with contingencies, starting with the age of his future partner. His readiness is more about compensating for what he feels was denied him than it is about building a life with a true equal and partner. It is often so with older men who chase younger women.
Sooner or later, she’s very likely to say to him something like: “When I first met you, I thought you were so magnificent, everything I ever wanted; now I see you’re just another man.” She’ll walk away disillusioned and he’ll be left shattered, embarrassed, perhaps disgraced. The dirty old man is revealed to be a fool with knobby knees, erectile dysfunction, and a sad little belly with white hairs on it. It’s an old and familar story.
Wow Hugo. Now you’re clairvoyant. You know exactly how this relationship is “very likely” to end. Of course, it’s also “very likely” that they could be together several years and be entirely happy with one another (they’ve already made it past that crucial first-year hump, I see), but that’s never a scenario you’re willing to accept, is it?
As for your silly little poem, well, obviously this younger woman wasn’t a “door” that was “closed” to Debra’s friend, was she? Debra, in the meantime, needs to pick up that book “He’s Just Not That Into You,” give it a good skim, realize that in life, you win some and you lose some, and move on to find another man. He’s isn’t the only one out there. This is a process called “growing up,” which Hugo seems to think is something only men need to experience.
In the meantime, I’m thrilled for Debra’s friend, that he was able to find a loving partner after so many years of loneliness and frustration. Of course, he evidently wasn’t aware that there were rules pertaining to whom he is and isn’t allowed to experience happiness with. But so much the better for him (and her), I’d say. It’s hard enough making love work, regardless of age, without having scowling, judgmental moral police wagging their fingers at you all the time, calling you a knobby-kneed dirty old man, and telling you you’re Bad Bad Bad for not doing it their way.
Heck, while I’m on a roll, I’ll pitch in a little more. Debra writes this to Hugo:
And what if he IS happy? How do I, then, keep his bliss from making me
feel worthless? Have I spent almost 25 years going from “young and
dumped” to “old and no longer desirable” with nothing in between?
Hugo praises Debra’s feelings for being “righteous,” (while lambasting Pacific for his supposed immaturity) and opines that the big difference between Debra and Pacific is that Debra’s looking for a relationship with a peer and “intimacy with an equal”. It’s painfully obvious from Debra’s own writings she isn’t looking for this at all. Debra, rather, is the textbook example of co-dependence. She had built up a fantasy of happiness based upon an image of her friend she had constructed in her mind, and a longed-for relationship with that image. When the friend didn’t follow the script, Debra feels cheated. His happiness, she says, will mean her misery. To paraphrase Hugo, Debra has failed to grow up in a vital area: she hasn’t realized that her happiness depends upon her, and not another. Expecting someone else to supply you with your life’s quota of “happiness” is the very definition of co-dependence.
Meanwhile, the evidently very happy and to-date successful relationship between Debra’s friend and his young lover is vilified for no reason other than the age disparity of the partners. Hugo’s doublespeak is in fifth gear here. He always says something like “No, I don’t think we have some sort of moral obligation to date solely within our chronological peer group. I don’t think, for example, that men in their late forties should refrain from dating women in their early twenties solely because women in their forties need suitable dating partners and don’t want to lose out to women half their age,” only to go on at great length to spell out that that’s exactly what he does think. Also implicit in Hugo’s writings is a condescending attitude towards young women as inferior, and a contradictory feeling towards older men who like them. Hugo attacks men who pursue younger women as immature; yet somehow, at the same time, they’re far and away the superior of the naive and easily duped young women they pursue, and able to win those young women only because the little bimbettes are too stupid to know better than to hook up with the Big Bad Wolf.
The long and short of it is this: Debra’s friend was not obligated to become her boyfriend simply because she built up an image of him as the perfect partner over which he had no control (let alone input), any more than any woman is obligated to become a man’s girlfriend because of whatever fantasies he’s contrived. Whatever the course the relationship between him and his young girlfriend takes, it’s not Debra’s or Hugo’s or anybody’s business. It’s a fact of life that one will occasionally make choices that will prompt those who consider themselves morally superior to you to condemn you. In the end, you are responsible for yourself, and you can’t be faulted because somebody who can’t face that responsibility is standing off on the sidelines wailing, “But…but…but…you’re mine!” Indeed, that ought to be a signal to get the hell out of Dodge.
What happens to the girl’s youth? if she spends her freedom years with a man in his 40’s 50’s when will she go through the sef discovery we all need. My niece went out with a man who said he was 29 when she was 17 - he looked much older. They were together for 2 years until he began an affair with her then best friend a saga of control the ensued involving my niece becoming thinner and less confident while losing touch with her peers. I am not suggesting that all age gap relationships are about control, but she lost her own youth for a while and I can’t help thinking that any young person needs to explore their own youth with complete freedom. Maybe Debra’s friend’s new girlfreind will be whistfully pursuing the men in their 20’s she’s missing out on now one day in the future.
Martin, take this as your signal to move out of Dodge. You’ve made it clear you disagree with my basic premises, and that’s fine — now, you’re getting repetitive. You are welcome, and indeed encouraged, to start your own blog. But you can join Mr. Bad on comment probation until the Fourth of July.
As a woman in Debra’s age range, what really struck me is that she is worrying about this man’s happiness and whether he’ll be OK, and all the while she’s tending to her own wounds. Why is she worrying about him? He’s a grown-up, he’s made his choices, and it’s his job to make the marriage work. It’s not her job to worry about him. I hope she finds a way to move through this pain and turn it into a way to feel stronger in her own self. She may come to consider the day he married this younger woman a blessing. She may grow from it, she may find a far happier relationship (with herself, first and foremost, and with others) and she may come to see that he would not have been the kind of partner she thought he would be. I just hope she moves forward into her own life, although I know that’s easier said than done.
Pacific seems to see a younger woman as a commodity to be acquired, sort of like saying he deserved to drive a Corvette in his 20’s, and now he wants one. I sound like Olympia Dukakis in “Moonstruck,” but all the young girlfriends and Corvettes and jet skis and whatever playthings do not turn back the clock, they don’t halt our mortality.
Perhaps this older man wishes children of his own. It is, in this case, a lot smarter to go with a woman of childbearing years rather than one who is late enough in life to have little chance of bearing children, if not post-menopausal.
I see no principled difference between Pacific and Debra. They both feel entitled to have someone else make their life work for them.
Happiness comes from within, and for a lot of us, too, once we find that center, we find that the “relationships” which so obsessed us for so long are actually rather unimportant. Or some find what they wished for later, when they are ready for them. And others only have regrets.
I empathise with Debra in that when a man chooses someone much yonger than you the weight of our cultural (tv etc) preference for younger women lands on you with full force and yes, it can make you feel worthless. I don’t think there is anything wrong with wanting to love someone. If her friend had left her for someone their age it’s my guess that Debra would not have felt half so bad. In darker moments these situations also make you feel like: ‘maybe I’m expected to go out with a man much older, maybe that’s what is there for me’ I have never been attracted to older men and this idea is stiffling.
Honestly, Debra comes across as a “nice girl.” There may be problematic elements to her friend’s relationship, and I feel somewhat sorry for her own situation, but when she’s coming from the perspective of having been “cheated” out of a potential relationship with him to which she’s entitled (but c’mon, what the hell was she doing all that time before he got into the relationship?) it’s impossible to address those properly.
What struck me immediately is Mr. Sad Sack’s complaints that ‘all his relationships with women ended in disaster’. If you’re almost 50 and, despite your desire and efforts to make it happen, have had every single relationship end in “disaster”….um, isn’t that kind of a hint that something’s wrong? As the saying goes, the only thing in common in all your failed relationships is you.
For whatever reason, he wasn’t interested in Debra. There’s nothing in what she says to suggest that if only she magically turned into a 22-year-old, that he’d be all over her.
And I can’t help but wonder about a bicoastal relationship that got serious after two and a half months, and that has only been going on for a year. I wish them the best, but I wouldn’t lay money on it.
I appreciate the time and thought put into this topic by all the members so far. I will say the intellect fails where the heart feels safe to tread. It is of no avail to analyze this issue of love and emotion, unless the goal is to capture love and look at it in a sterile museum. Instead, where the answers to these questions are best answered is in the field, living the life, taking the bite from the apple, and risking ones own heart.
There is eternal love, there is fleeting love, and realistically most love falls somewhere in between the two. To share love for a moment between two people is much more valuable to the soul than the ridicule and speculation of one’s peers.
We see a long history of paederasty throughout many civilizations. Although such behavior is generally homosexual in nature that is not always the case. The zeitgeist of the times in America may not be able to digest such behavior as normative within the mainstream culture, however, this does not change the fact that such behavior may be as common now as it was in ancient Greece. I would posit to say, it is so common that it is a natural form of behavior for humankind and always will be.
Personally, I am American, I live in Sweden, I am in my mid 30’s and have been divorced for 15 months. I find we live in a unique age. With the advent of the Internet and dating services everyone is equally equipped to find love. It is an egalitarian system. We see women in their mid 30’s who only wish to date men in their early 20’s. We see older men in their 60’s who chase women in their 30’s. Those women in their 30’s are quite capable of telling such men to take a hike or maybe some go for the silver haired pentioner.
In the past year I have dated women from 19 to 51. I date on average 2 times a week. Many of the women I date become friends and not lovers. It is possible that I have found 5 or 6 women who I can honestly say I could have long term relationships with. The women here in Sweden are very liberated and the divide between men and women is very narrow, I find it so much easier to make friends with Swedish women than American women, in fact so much so, that it is possible to develop a camraderie with women here usually only shared between men in the states.
In America people are still repressed sexually and I think thats where many problems arise from. Living in this liberal atmosphere it leads me ask the question, is marraige natural, is monogomy natural, what is the equilibrium of human nature and sexuality and relationships, and to what extent should society saction those who stray from the norm? Those questions lead me to beleive in freedom. The freedom for two adults to write a dictionary with their own definition of love, relationship, passion, sex, etc.
To have that freedom is powerful. To lose in love at times is natural. Yet, the heart is strong enought to heal itself. In fact, I worry, that if one over studies what is love, what should a relationship be, what is right, than one will never find true love because the entire time they will be filled with pre-conceived notions.
Therefore, I shall be out living life, searching for love, finding it, losing it, finding it again, and maybe if I am lucky find a person who is true for me for the rest of my days. And should such an event not occur than it is not a tragedy, the tragedy would have been if I never set sail to begin with. And for me that is what is natural but you will never find that within the confines of mueseum or lab.
Jeff and mythago, that is exactly what I was thinking!
I’m also sorry about the bitter pill of truth, but like many people here, I honestly believe that “Mr. Sad Sack” was “just not that into” her or she didn’t assert herself enough to win him over. I don’t think she got “cheated” out of a relationship, I believe it’s just green-eyed monster speaking over the evidence and her logic.
But I also have to ask, is she supporting her claims through on this sole relationship with a younger woman or his whole dating history?
However, if it is true that he’s the older man chasing after women half his age (which will probably then be a contributor to his romantic-relationship disasters), I will say to Debra, don’t YOU deserve better than that? It’s better not to stick around and pray that this 47-year-old man-child (and others alike) will change his habits.
It quite intrigues me how we simply categorize «older women» against «younger women» and then defend it in the name of feminism with the older men at the centre. WOW…is that how far feminism has gotten you? Seriously, I’m a young women, whose maturity surpasses most of the 40-ish women I know. Has it ever accured to you that not all women fit in the neat stereotype you wish to make them fit into?
Altough, I must point out that most men in my peer group who are very intelligent still prefer the girl with the miniskirt over a girl like me whose more likely to dress demurely, and I find THAT to be disgusting. I feel cheated on when an intelligent man passes me over (and our intelligent conversation) to go over and admire some girl’s cleavage. But as you see, this is not an age gap phenomenon. I would appreciate a more nuanced look at these relationships, because not all young women are sex objects and I refuse to fall into the dialect of old view feminism that think the basis of the older man’s admiration could never go beyond the youth and the body.
Frankly, I do wish there’s some truth to what I’m saying, because if not, it pretty much means that intelligent men, aren’t that intelligent.
I am just wondering what the appropriate age difference is then between a man and a woman? Or, at what age is someone able to make well-informed decisions about the person they get involved with?
My working rule of thumb is if either person is under 21, than an age gap of more than five years is problematic. If both are over 21, than the older partner should not be old enough to be the younger’s biological parent. I know, seems arbitrary. But age is most definitely almost never “just a number”, and we forget that at our peril.
I found this blog entry very interesting. As you know (or may not know–depending on if you remember), my current boyfriend and I have an 8 year age gap. I met him at 19, he 27–we became very close friends, fell in love, and a year later got together. I turn 22 in 2 months, and he just turned 30, and everything is as wonderful now as it was a year and a half ago. He’s taught me so much about life and I make him feel young. For us, age definitely is nothing but a number…but I guess it depends on the person and the relationship. All in all-he makes me incredibly happy. :)
As far as this situation goes…I think 47 and 22 can be troublesome. Personally I agree, that if the older partner is old enough to be a parent to the other-than it might not be such a great idea. Anything over 15 years is tricky.
Actually, I think Martin hit the nail on the head.
Hugo, what are your credentials for being the know-it-all decider of morals and all-round morally superior person? And why is it your mission to be a busy-body, frantically sticking your nose in everyone else’s business?
You aren’t even trying to look at this scientifically or objectively, you are simply churning through your own life problems in a narcissistic way. In the end, I think the wasted time you spend on all of these Oprah topics comes down to time spent obsessing about your own life.
JG, I suggest not reading Hugo’s blog if his writer’s perspective bothers you.
I’m new at this so I hope you’ll bear with me.
First it’s a pity about Martin, I enjoyed and agreed with a lot he said.
My wife left after 28 years to live with her older lover and “find herself.” After working through the heartbreak I went online dating for several reasons. I’d tried meting people at dance lessons and was interested in my own age group. I found all the women I met to be bitter to some extent and often they seemed to see me as a possession. Often they seemed desperate and insecure and I had to walk away from the dance which I loved because I couldn’t deal with the women there.I seemed to get on with women 10-15 years younger so when I went online I made my preferred age group from my own age to 15 years younger. I met some nice women including one 30 years younger than me. Over an 8 month period I talked to many women in the age group I had specified in my profile and thought I had made some friends, however in the end they were alll pushing too hard for a relationship except for the one young girl. Her and I continued talking as friends untill one day I realised that the only thing that was holding me back was her age. So what do I do, discriminate against her because of her age, sure it may not last, any relationship has that risk. I’ll take that risk because the one thing I’ve learned at my age is that happiness is the most valuable commodity on this earth and if we make each other happy for whatever time we’re allowed then it’s worth it. If anyone has issues with it then they’ll have to deal with them. If two people are happy together then to me it’s working and the rest of the world should butt out.
Ooops, I hope I haven’t offended anyone here but then I have to admit some of the prejudices here have annoyed me. Hey, it takes all types. I hope everyone here finds their own happiness
Francesca, I would imagine those miniskirted women would resentfully say that they’re just as intelligent–if not moreso–than all those more-modestly dressing women they know.
There are three things that really bother me about this situation. First, the author of the letter that prompted Hugo’s post is very clearly and obviously biased. She’s quite apparently jealous that the object of her affection didn’t choose her and is trying her best to come up with reasons that this man’s relationship is wrong. Therefore, accepting her words as entirely truthful and correct is problematic (not that I believe she’s being intentionally deceitful).
Second, the level of judgementalism (if there is such a word) on all sides here is really astounding. This man is not doing anything either unethical or illegal by anyone’s standard. We may question his judgement, but does the Bible not instruct us to reserve our judgements of others and leave matters such as these up to God. This whole evaluation of this man’s relationship strikes me as very un-Christian at its core and does nothing to help the woman involved. If this man is making a mistake, there will be consequences for him to live with. We don’t need to add our judgements to that.
Finally, it bothers me that this woman’s self esteem is so strongly tied to this man’s apparent interest, or lack thereof, in her. I’d suggest that rather than chastise this man for seeing a younger woman, we should be trying to help Debra separate her self image from the acceptance or rejection of others. I’d argue that would be the much more feminist and Christian thing to do.
Matt, if you know your Scripture you know that there’s a difference between “judgment” (saying something like “Johnny is a bad, bad man who is going to hell”) and discernment and accountability (”Johnny has fallen short of the mark, and we’re going to gently sit him down and confront him.”)
Of course Debra is biased. And maybe the guy doesn’t want to be with her for reasons that have nothing to do with age. BUT — and this is a big ol’ BUT — her sense of being aggrieved isn’t just personal to her, Debra; it’s tied into a larger grievance that many women in their forties and fifties have about their male peers who foist their attentions on to much younger women.
Saying “the heart wants what the heart wants” isn’t enough, particularly when we live in a culture that directs the hearts of men (and their libidos) towards the young, the impressionable, the vulnerable, those of unequal life experience.
And I still say that the best way to address that larger grievance is by ministering to the women and helping them to feel that their identities aren’t tied either to men who may or may not reciprocate the woman’s feelings or to the women the men show their attraction to. Making judgements about the man’s actions isn’t going to help. Building self esteem and eliminating insecurities will.
Also, for the record, I do understand discernment vs. judgement. I also understand discernment vs. gossip and I understand that this man isn’t here to defend himself and that his side of the story is not being represented. That part still bothers me and strikes me as being distinctly not the “best” way to focus our energies.
Hugo@22: “Saying “the heart wants what the heart wants” isn’t enough” - true, but loudly defining adult male sexual maturity as having the same tastes as Hugo Schwyzer doesn’t help much either. Just sayin’.
Matt@23: “I understand that this man isn’t here to defend himself” - Hugo made no comment on the man other than to describe the age gap as “troubling”. All his other comments were general. The comments have focussed on Debra’s attitude and perceptions. I don’t see anyone laying into the man so I’m wondering why you bothered making this comment.
I agree with Matt about self esteem and insecurities - but that works for both genders. Also it is unavoidable that a person’s self esteem is affected by what goes on around them and the way they are perceived. No - one can deny the interest many men have in younger women and the prestige with which girls in their early twenties are held. Even women news casters have a short shelf life (how does that correlate to the reproduction theory?) so just becoming older can dent a woman’s self esteem and make her insecure. I wish we were all emotional giants who could brush off a life time of conditioning - and that includes the men who think that women are only worthwhile for a limitted part of their live - but we’re not we’re human. Self esteem building would also help the midlife crisis man, in my experience it has always been the most insecure men who reach for the stereotypical ideal of feminity, slim large boobs, young, compliant. So yes better self esteem would help al parties.
As much as I can sympathize with Debra’s disappointment, I still have to say that dating the “wrong” person (whether “wrong” applies to age, race, religion, etc) is a choice and/or a mistake that anybody can make at any age — and people have the God-given right to make mistakes. He gave us free will. Therefore, there will be mistakes.
I find myself in the rare and uncomfortable position of agreeing with the Gonzman here.
Both Debra and Pacific need to learn to look in themselves for happiness, not others. It’s one think to sympathize with them - after reading these posts, I feel for both of them - it’s quite another thing to validate what is essentially a self-destructive attitude that they both seem to have.
Debra, Pacific, and heck, many of the posters here, especially Francesca above, may indeed “feel” cheated when someone they’re interested in doesn’t feel the same way, but that does not mean they are being cheated. You aren’t entitled to anyone’s romantic attentions. I was kind of astounded by Francesca’s post - using feminism as a defense for that feeling of entitlement - the idea that she’s somehow more deserving of love because she’s respectable is, on the face of it, anti-feminist, and moreso so is the idea that anyone’s entitled to love in the first place.
For myself: when I want to be involved with someone, and they aren’t interested, I used to feel cheated, now I just feel shitty. I pick myself up and move on. That’s the starting point for emotional maturity, being able to do that.
Hey I agree about Francesca - and was amazed at the level of mis - understanding and arrogance in her post. I had been using the ignore it and it’ll go away approach until now.
Oh and by ”it” I don’t mean the assertion that she is superior to multiple groups of other women - including fortyish ones. Not a good idea on a blog like this one. I am a mini skirt wearing fortyish woman!! (ok wiith opaques if it’s not high summer) who has a good deolletage she is not ashamed of!
Oh I meant, I do mean!!!
Oh I meant, I do mean those assertions!!!
I don’t know. I just know it’s so hard. And I can’t stop thinking, and
worrying: What happens to him if it’s not as great as it seems? Will
he be devastated? Doesn’t he deserve more? If she ever left him, would
he be destroyed? Would he learn, or would he just make the same mistake over again?
This is pretty sick, right here. It’s not just the way she treats this creep like a fragile innocent whose bliss may be shattered by some mean 22 year old, it’s the total blistering unconcern for the 22 year old herself. Picking up and moving across the country for a virtual stranger — let us emphasize that it was not him who broke and remade his life, abandoned his home and the physical proximity of all his other friends, who moved thousands of miles away for her, it was she who did that for him — is not the action of a woman who has much in the way of instincts for self-preservation, a woman who had much to lose, or a woman who had a full, satisfying life before she met him. What if he leaves her? Can she afford to go back?
Notice also that he began “seeing” a woman on the opposite coast. Well, no, if she was on the opposite coast, he could not, logically, have been seeing her. Perhaps Debra means he was emailing her every night for two months. That seems more likely.
So, Debra? No. No, he doesn’t deserve more. That poor young woman might deserve more, but she’s an adult, more or less, and she’ll have to work it out for herself. Maybe in between your sadness for not winning a creepy boyfriend and your creepily faux-maternal pity for a guy who doesn’t need it, you could spare a thought for the person in this situation who is almost certainly the worst off.
While I agree with most of your comment, I’ve gotta stick up for the LDRs here. There’s telephones, email, instant messaging, cameras, video - all sorts of good ways for people to meet and keep in touch over long distances.
Debra’s friend is obviously different from Clinton in that he is pursuing a long-term relationship rather than a fleeting extramarital affair. That’s to the good.
Hugo, this is so wrong it’s almost painful, and just like Debra, you’re obsessing over the precious Personal Development of the male participant to the total exclusion of considering what does or doesn’t harm the woman involved.
If you are a late teenager or a young adult woman, having a brief, consensual fling with an older man is generally not harmful. The worst that will happen is that you will feel stupid afterwards or come out of it with contempt for old men. But basically, so what. Even if it is a fling with a married man: you may come out of it feeling like a heel for making some other woman unhappy, and you should, but that, too, is a learning experience, and not a fatal one.
Now moving across the country for a strange old man at 21 (since she’s 22 now, she’d have been 21 when they “met”), disrupting or abandoning whatever familial or friendly structures you have in place, subordinating whatever educational or career decisions you would otherwise have made to the need to be near the Man (who does not make similar sacrifices for you, naturally), living with him two months after you first met him, which probably means letting him support you, at least in terms of rent, so that you can’t leave him without taking a drastic lifestyle hit…
Do you see where I’m going here? THAT will fuck you up. That is seriously risky behavior. It won’t kill you, but nobody in their right mind would see a woman about to do all this and not feel some alarm.
But from your perspective, a guy who talks a woman into this kind of mess is better than a guy who just wants to have a one-night stand with her. That makes precisely no sense. Unless, of course, the man’s spiritual navel-gazing is more important than the woman’s actual well-being.
While I agree with most of your comment, I’ve gotta stick up for the LDRs here. There’s telephones, email, instant messaging, cameras, video - all sorts of good ways for people to meet and keep in touch over long distances.
I, too, have started and maintained relationships with the aid of (or only with) email. I think that physically meeting people you previously knew only online is just fine, and of course I think that letters, whether paper or electronic, are a terrific means of communicating.
That doesn’t change my opinion that moving across the country to live with a guy you’ve known two and a half months and only or mostly from a distance is deeply messed up and fraught with more than the usual amount of peril.
yeah - I think the emphasis on the two older people as vulnerable may say something about the way we perceive younger women, somehow magically beyond human frailties and needs.
Sophonisba, I had to mull that over for a bit, and yeah, you’re right. I was too focused on the fella’s intent and not enough on the impact.
I’m a Christian and I try to approach matters of life from a Christian perspective. I think that every important relationship (not just romantic ones) should be brought before God in prayer. Honestly seeking the truth from God will reveal the proper course of action. It’s not about “rules” or “shoulds.” Rather, it is about relationship with God first and others second.
I try not to “close doors” that are open or to “force open” doors that are closed. I try to remember to ask God to close and open doors. He has a much better perspective than I do. :)
You are making some pretty broad conclusions here. This adult woman could have very well had none of the career or educational assets you mention. For her, a ticket across country and free rent might not sound too bad. It might get her out of an abusive home life, or some other poor living conditions that were undesirable. A little free rent would have helped her get a foothold in whatever city she landed in even if the relationship suddenly failed after a couple of months. No harm no foul, except for the guy, which nobody seems to be able to see him as a possible victim (chump) anyway.
Just because there is an older/younger component to a relationship, doesn’t mean that it is always the younger that is being taken advantage of ( or that either are for that matter).
In some, but not all cases, the older man’s selection of a younger woman as a partner is a signal to other men that though he is older, he is interesting and potent and desirable and attractive to young women. In that sense, the woman and her age are are not necessarily relevant in themselves, but are more relevant at what they point to in terms of underlying psychological desires - to appear and present one’s self to others, to ward off death, and so on.
Jeremy, I don’t understand your confusion. This entire post and the whole discussion that follows is about how this man and his relationship affects the woman who wrote to Hugo, Debra. Surely he would want to stick up for himself, especially considering that most here are taking an unfavorable view of that relationship. My point is that a relationship between two consenting adults should not be viewed as a problem no matter what we think of the participants’ judgement. Our society, as others have pointed out, tends to create a high level of insecurity in women who feel they can’t compete with society’s ideals. Debra seems to be very much caught up in that and THAT is what we should be addressing. Let’s forget about the May-December relationship. That’s merely incidental.
Matt, our relationships have a huge impact on those around us — what consenting adults do often impacts others,
For example, my third wife and I mutually consented to divorce. It was our decision alone, our private business — but gosh, that decision hurt a lot of other people who didn’t get to be part of the decision. Very few relationships, including older-younger ones, are truly private. I think divorce should be legal, and I think 70 year olds should legally be allowed to bed 18 year-olds. But we can bemoan divorce for its negative impact on others, and grieve what the sexualization of the very young by the much older does, even while we allow it legally.
Sophonisba, I’m blown away by your insightful comments. That phrase “creepily faux-maternal pity” completely nails Debra’s self-serving fantasies.
Matt, my point is that I don’t see anyone criticising the man involved, so why make a big thing about defending him? It only derails the conversation. And since Hugo used Debra’s email as a jumping-off point to talk about May-December relationships in general it’s hardly off-topic to continue the discussion (though naturally you’re free to talk about other things if you would prefer).
Since Matt doesn’t want me to talk about May-December relationships, let’s look at Pacific’s claim that “I suppose that, when I was younger, I was too picky when it came to looking for a mate”. There is some fascinating research that suggests he’s kidding himself.
Scientists who ran a speed-dating session discovered that people who were truly picky (ie. attracted to just one of their dates) usually had that attraction returned. The people who got no interest were the ones that expressed interest in everybody; they came across as desperate losers.
Sounds like Pacific should think again!
Scientists who ran a speed-dating session discovered that people who were truly picky (ie. attracted to just one of their dates) usually had that attraction returned.
I’d be cautious in generalizing too much the “usually had that attraction returned” part. My first thought in seeing this was, I know I was attracted to very few people, and I know fewer than half of them reciprocated. Then I realized that, first, speed dating inherently preselects for “available” (while in real life one sometimes gets attracted and then finds out about the long distance relationship), and, second, I generally only count people as having reciprocated in real life if things worked out for rather longer than needed to count in the speed dating experiment.
Lynn:
I’d be cautious in generalizing too much …
Good advice, but I claim credit for stating my claim cautiously (note my careful use of “suggests” and “should”). Anyway, to quote Linus Torvalds: “Yes, I overgeneralize. Doesn’t everybody?”.
I generally only count people as having reciprocated in real life if things worked out for rather longer than needed to count in the speed dating experiment.
Fair enough, but Pacific was complaining of never having had a date at all so I assume he hasn’t experienced reciprocation even as the experiment defined it. So it’s relevant to him even though you’re lucky enough to be picky about your reciprocity. ;-)
Fair enough, Jeremy :-)
I do have one further comment, if the thread is not yet exhausted. What disturbs me so much about Debra’s analysis of her own situation is her lack of concern for the young woman, as I said, but I didn’t actually say why I think she should be concerned. After all, this person is a stranger to her, right? Why should she care what some stupid kid gets herself into? What’s it to her?
Well, I think she should care, because this attitude of hers is the precise mirror image of the older man’s attitude. What I mean by that is: Hugo’s argued (only somewhat persuasively, to me, but still) that men of a certain age should take a paternal attitude towards women in their early twenties; when someone’s young enough to be your daughter, you should treat her as though she might be: that is to say, respectfully, kindly, and with the full awareness that while she may be your equal in intelligence and spirit, she is not your equal in experience. To pretend that you’re on an equal playing field with her in sex and love is not just potentially harmful to them, but undignified and degrading to yourself.
Well, all of this applies to older women. It applies to Debra. And I think that for mature women to treat young women as competitors to be viewed with defensive hostility is as damaging, or more damaging to them, than for mature men to target them sexually.
For a woman over, let us say, 35 to treat 22 year olds as her romantic competition is really deeply disturbed. And it is a total cop-out to pretend that the actions of irresponsible men her own age force her into this attitude: they don’t. Yes, he may be treating this young woman as an appropriate target, but the whole point is that he is wrong to do so. Following his manly lead and treating her as some sort of romantic peer or rival, who may cruelly and unfairly abandon Creepy Old Guy, is undignified, ridiculous, and when accompanied by overt hostility, fairly morally bankrupt. Stewardship and care for the young isn’t just a masculine duty.
Sophonisba, I’ve never agreed with you more, save that we need to see the ways in which this rivalry is partly the responsibility of the women who engage in it but also the responsibility of the broader culture that creates and encourages it.
Being the person who kicked all this off, and seeing some of the comments here, I thought I’d thank Hugo and add some clarifications and comments of my own.
Martin calls me “the textbook example of co-dependence. She had built up a fantasy of happiness based upon an image of her friend she had constructed in her mind, and a longed-for relationship with that image. When the friend didn’t follow the script, Debra feels cheated.” No. I didn’t feel cheated specifically because of this situation and nothing else. It was more of a general feeling of “having been cheated when it comes to relationships,” period, than it was merely a feeling of having been cheated out of this particular one. More of a “final nail in the coffin” effect than anything else.
Martin also says, and others have echoed: “Debra has failed to grow up in a vital area: she hasn’t realized that her happiness depends upon her, and not another. Expecting someone else to supply you with your life’s quota of ‘happiness’ is the very definition of co-dependence.” Wrong again. I don’t expect anyone else to “make me happy.” The problem comes not from that, but from my feeling that I may never have an opportunity for a loving relationship with anyone, in which we both contribute to making it what it is, because I lack the basic “admission ticket” to such a relationship: call it exceptional beauty, call it youth, call it whatever you like. I never used to think that was the case. I always had some kind of blind faith that somehow I’d find someone who I liked enough and who liked me enough to make growing into love possible. Now, I find I’ve completely lost faith that it will ever happen.
I also did not build up an image of this man as “the perfect partner,” or think he was “mine” or that I had any sort of claim on him. Far from it. I would have liked to have had that chance, though, and it hurts to feel as if it is irrevocably gone. Anyone who implied I didn’t do enough to pursue a relationship with the man, or that I have made some sort of attempt to and been rejected (and hence should simply move on because the man has clearly expressed his lack of interest), also is not really aware of the situation. I’d rather not go into it here, but let’s just say that I haven’t made such an attempt with this person and I haven’t been rejected by him.
The Gonzman said “Perhaps this older man wishes children of his own. It is, in this case, a lot smarter to go with a woman of childbearing years rather than one who is late enough in life to have little chance of bearing children, if not post-menopausal.” For the record, he does, but I would dearly like to believe that even a man wishing to become a father doesn’t select a mate solely on the basis of acquiring the freshest eggs and baby-making hips.
Another small addition of fact: They really did date, in person, for two and a half months before she moved in. He is in a position in life in which the cost of the airfare was not nearly as much a concern to him as the wear and tear of the travel, which may well have contributed to the speed with which she decided to move in with him. (The nature of his job meant she was going to be the one to have to move.)
Sophonisba calls my concern about the man “pretty sick.” Why? Why do you call him a “creep”? Sounds like you’re passing judgment on him and you don’t even know much of anything about him. Sophinisba also assumes I have “total blistering unconcern for the 22 year old herself.” Not really. I do realize the position she’s put herself in by picking up and moving across the country for a virtual stranger. But at the same time, I think he’s the more vulnerable one in terms of what happens next. I know that will sound weird, but I think it is true…for reasons more complex than I care to go into. Put it this way: Financially, she won’t be destitute if this doesn’t work out–she’ll just lose her dependency on her boyfriend’s largesse and have to go back to being dependent on her parents’ largesse again. Either way, someone else will be footing the bill for her life because she is not capable of it as yet. Emotionally, however, I just have a feeling he is probably more deeply invested than she is…she’s young and her life is just beginning, whereas he may well see her as his “last dance, last chance for love.” That’s why I think she is more likely to leave him than vice versa, and he more likely to be devastated if this doesn’t work.
For the record, R. Giskard may be right in saying “For her, a ticket across country and free rent might not sound too bad. It might get her out of an abusive home life, or some other poor living conditions that were undesirable. A little free rent would have helped her get a foothold in whatever city she landed in even if the relationship suddenly failed after a couple of months.” Exactly (I suspect that to some extent that’s the case). “No harm no foul, except for the guy, which nobody seems to be able to see him as a possible victim (chump) anyway.” Again, exactly.
Then again, I do think there’s a serious danger, even if this relationship works, of her never finding out who SHE is as an independent person, and of never having the chance to find out whether or not she can make it on her own in life. Like many women of times past, she will be passing right from her father’s hands into her husband’s…do not pass Go, do not collect $200. This is one way in which I do not envy her. I know I can take care of myself in life. I have had more than ample opportunity to prove it. She may never know, or may only be forced to find out through unpleasant circumstances.
Sophonisba also refers to my “creepily faux-maternal pity.” All I can say is that “creepy is as creepy does.” If you’re determined to judge both the man and me as “creepy” without knowing it, there’s probably not a lot I can do to disavow you of the notion. But I assure you, my concern (not “pity”) is real and sincere. Whether or not you find it “creepy.”
Sophonisba also says “I think that for mature women to treat young women as competitors to be viewed with defensive hostility is as damaging, or more damaging to them, than for mature men to target them sexually.” Well, if mature men are going to make it so clear that young women ARE our “competitors” and “target them sexually,” what are we to do? Is it “deeply disturbed” to acknowledge what I see going on around me? I don’t understand this: “Following his manly lead and treating her as some sort of romantic peer or rival, who may cruelly and unfairly abandon Creepy Old Guy, is undignified, ridiculous, and when accompanied by overt hostility, fairly morally bankrupt.” I don’t think it’s fair to call someone “morally bankrupt” just because she finds it upsetting that a man she likes is involved with a younger woman. And, for my part, Sophonisba seems a bit too fond of referring to people who are not really known to him or her as “creepy,” “disturbed,” “morally bankrupt,” etc.
Leapfrog made some excellent points, I thought: “it is unavoidable that a person’s self esteem is affected by what goes on around them and the way they are perceived. No - one can deny the interest many men have in younger women and the prestige with which girls in their early twenties are held…just becoming older can dent a woman’s self esteem and make her insecure. I wish we were all emotional giants who could brush off a life time of conditioning - and that includes the men who think that women are only worthwhile for a limitted part of their live - but we’re not we’re human. Self esteem building would also help the midlife crisis man, in my experience it has always been the most insecure men who reach for the stereotypical ideal of feminity, slim large boobs, young, compliant. So yes better self esteem would help al parties.” Hear, hear.
Hugo, I do agree with you when you say “this rivalry is partly the responsibility of the women who engage in it but also the responsibility of the broader culture that creates and encourages it.” What to do about it, I don’t know. What I can say is that Hugo did not reproduce my entire message to him here, so there were things that went unexplained and unelaborated upon. Suffice it to say I know that I have no control over what others choose to do, and that I need to focus upon what I can choose to do for myself in the area of love and relationships. My inspiration for writing Hugo was to collect some insight into how I can deal with some of the feelings inspired in me by what others choose to do. It’s very easy to say “You shouldn’t be affected by what other people choose to do with their lives” and “What they do should have no impact on your personal self-esteem,” but it’s far easier said than done. That’s what I’m wrestling with. Life would be much easier if other people’s choices and decisions didn’t affect us much. But it ain’t necessarily so.
As someone who was involved in a short-term extramarital affair with a woman 35 years my junior (gasp!), I couldn’t agree more with Hugo’s statement that “that sense of purpose, that sense of commitment to goals and ideals, ought to be sovereign — if not over our momentary longings, at least over our life choices.” When I think back on this relationship the adjectives “pathetic,” stupid,” and “foolish” come to mind. Simply put, there really IS no fool like an old fool. Thank you Hugo for helping me to “close softly the doors of rooms [I} won’t be coming back to.”
I’m going to try to reread this thread and post a longer comment later, but for now, I can’t for the life of me imagine what “slim large boobs” would look like. Could you make ballon animals out of them?
Sorry.
No, wait, I’m not sorry.
Try pamela anderson
This is a blogg, not an academic paper - typos are tolerated, but yes I suspect they’d make good giraffes at childrens’ parties. (no offence to Pammy etc)
The Gonzman said “Perhaps this older man wishes children of his own. It is, in this case, a lot smarter to go with a woman of childbearing years rather than one who is late enough in life to have little chance of bearing children, if not post-menopausal.” For the record, he does, but I would dearly like to believe that even a man wishing to become a father doesn’t select a mate solely on the basis of acquiring the freshest eggs and baby-making hips.
Depends on your priorities, Debra.
As a mid forties guy with “the operation” behind me, I don’t tend to select partners based on their fertility. In my younger days, before I became a father, fertility and the willingness to have children was a linchpin. I wanted to be a father.
It’d would have built up resentment otherwise.
I find myself in the rare and uncomfortable position of agreeing with the Gonzman here.
It’s not fatal. Come to the Dark Side of the Force….
Hey Gonzman - there is adopition, in many ways a far more satisfying option and something I may consider in the future.
In my younger days, before I became a father, fertility and the willingness to have children was a linchpin.
Willingness to have children was certainly a linchpin for me, in my younger days (and then I wound up with the marriage that’s infertile, and the husband who developed multiple chronic illnesses, so that adoption is looking out of the question for us as well). I can understand why a guy would rule out from the get go women he didn’t think he could be a parent; I did the same. What I can’t understand is why a guy would simultaneously think that being a father is enough of a priority that he’ll rule out women beyond baby-making age, and also that he can wait until he’s past a woman’s normal baby-making age to settle down. To me, that seems like a stupid way of prioritizing your life; whatever one may think about the desirability of May/December relationships, they’re not a thing a guy can count on having as an option, unless he’s rich. Guys who are serious about being a father should do the same thing as women who are serious about being a mother - look to marry while still in the normal childbearing years.
(This is a general comment on attitudes I’ve seen in some men; it doesn’t sound as if procrastinating marriage while still wanting to be a father is Debra’s friend’s biggest problem.)
Why do you call him a “creep”? Sounds like you’re passing judgment on him and you don’t even know much of anything about him.
Debra, re-read your post. Do you not see that your attitude here is heavily flavored by your attraction to this man, and that you are dumping a very large and unfair share of your hurt on this young woman? If she’s losing an opportunity to be an adult, this man is doing his level best to help her lose it.
Lynn, word. It seems especially weird to hold the attitude that Dad’s entire contribution is to get Mom knocked up and to pay the bills, and that she, being younger, will be the one who has the energy to do all that childrearing stuff.
Why do you call him a “creep”?
As a 24-year-old, if I had a 47-year-old trying to date me and a woman his age being hostile towards me about it, I would probably go hide under my bed and yell at them to go see a shrink and figure out their dysfunctions without involving me. It IS creepy when I have much, much older men hitting on me, because I always know they can’t possibly have anything in common with me to form the foundation of a healthy relationship with. I would hope that a woman his age would recognize that and at least have some concern instead of being hostile.
No more than I see the attitude here heavily flavored by the desire to vilify this man and relieve this young woman from any and all responsibility for her own personal decisions. She , an innocent young victim, and because of him, she’s somehow unable to make responsible choices concerning her own agency.
Not surprisingly , Ive known many women and more than a few men that did not fit this mold. Young women that had an amazingly clear idea of how to run their own lives, and men ( of all ages) that were amazingly foolish where women were concerned. But moreover, I haven’t known any women whose decision making skills somehow began failing because their lover’s age exceeded a magical number.
I tend to think of a 21 year old woman as being an adult, however, it she was somehow losing an opportunity to be a more independent adult ( and I don’t necessarily think this is so), it was her own decision to do it. She could have just as easily hid under the bed with Brooke.
Hey Gonzman - there is adopition, in many ways a far more satisfying option and something I may consider in the future.
For some, it is an option. Others crave children of their body.
What I can’t understand is why a guy would simultaneously think that being a father is enough of a priority that he’ll rule out women beyond baby-making age, and also that he can wait until he’s past a woman’s normal baby-making age to settle down.
To be blunt - because he can. While fertility does occasionally falter in later life, most men remain fertile. It is an option for him; the biological clock ticks nowhere near as loudly.
To me, that seems like a stupid way of prioritizing your life; whatever one may think about the desirability of May/December relationships, they’re not a thing a guy can count on having as an option, unless he’s rich.
And a ,man more established in a career - or operating a thriving business - will have more time to devote to being a father, and not require a second income which often creates hardship.
Guys who are serious about being a father should do the same thing as women who are serious about being a mother - look to marry while still in the normal childbearing years.
In your opinion.
And a ,man more established in a career - or operating a thriving business - will have more time to devote to being a father
More time than what? Than a stay-at-home dad whose wife who has a career? Than a man who is not running his own business? (C’mon. Are you really trying to tell us that being a business owner is something for leisure hounds?)
You’re also conflating the biological clock with the reality clock. Lynn isn’t arguing that men become less fertile as they age; she’s pointing out that a man who is sure he wants to have biological children will be more likely to find a suitable mate if he’s around the same age as said mate.
R., is there a reason you’re arguing that two dysfunctions make a function?
Debra, thanks for your response - it provides a lot of balance and context.
Sophonisba also says “I think that for mature women to treat young women as competitors to be viewed with defensive hostility is as damaging, or more damaging to them, than for mature men to target them sexually.” Well, if mature men are going to make it so clear that young women ARE our “competitors” and “target them sexually,” what are we to do? Is it “deeply disturbed” to acknowledge what I see going on around me?
I would say in general, it’s probably not a good idea for mature women to look around at younger women and see an army of potential threats in the competition for mens’ attention in the dating world[*].
However, in this specific situation, among the specific parties involved in the situation, age is absolutely a factor. Just as if, for example and by analogy, Debra and the male involved had in common a minority religious practice such as Hinduism while the other woman were an evangelical Christian, then religion would be a factor.
[*] except in Age of Love, that reality show, where that’s the whole point…
However, in this specific situation, among the specific parties involved in the situation, age is absolutely a factor.
It’s not a factor in the potential for a relationship with Debra, though; Mr. Sad was not interested in her before the young lady came along.
hey Gonzman - I really appreciate your point of view. How does the baby thing relate to men in their 30’s pursuing much younger women? Granted, fertility declines a bit, but research has put 34 as the optimum age for a woman to reproduce due to increased emotional stability and ability to carry out the job at hand. So why do some men in their mid thirties still idealise much younger women? I appreciate what you are saying about soem people craving children made from their own bodies, I don’t - but hey, I suppose some do. Also, many younger women I know don’t want children any way. And what would the older man pursuing a child bearing age woman do if his catch turned out to be infertile, would he leave? It seems a bit extreem to go for someone of 22 when you are almost 50 just in order to have children - many women in their 40’s reproduce. If it’s so he can have many, many children he’ll be knackered - and so will she. I don’t believe love is that premeditated - real love lands were it lands, not were the most eggs are.
And those two dysfunctions would be?
Both are exercising options that in your opinion are foolish. Geez, I know lots of otherwise smart people that occsionally do things that I think are foolish. Happens all the time. Doesn’t make them dysfunctional.
The thing is, I don’t have a problem with their decision. I hold them both accountble for it and I don’t see the harm in the decision they made. Both have gained from it, and both have the potential to lose from it. But isn’t that inherent in any relationship? Don’t we all take a chance?
What I see here is two sides of the same coin. On one side I see Debra, angry that Sad Sack is dating a much younger woman, and on the other I see the women here angry that Young Girl is dating a much older man. The only difference is who you are holding accountable for it.
I can understand Debra’s sense of loss. What I don’t understand is the Feminist stand that Young Girls intellegence and sense of agency suddenly takes a hit because the guy she’s interested in is above a certain age.
For the younger feminists here, maybe it’s a “Ewwwww” moment. Fine. Thats your choice. It’s not everyones choice but it is fine that it is yours.
But for the more mature feminists, what is it? Something similar to the sense of competition that Debra feels? What do Feminist have to gain by limiting women’s choices in who they find desirable?
The other reason you might not want to date a younger woman is that she might decide she’s not ready for kids and push back having them until she herself is in her 30s. Happened to an (ex) friend of mine. Got married at 21 to a 31 year old, they were planning to have kids right away. Well, she ended up part-timing at a daycare and decided she DIDN’T want kids anytime soon. Now? She’s 28 and he’s 38, and they’re still together, but they still don’t have kids, much to his chagrin.
Getting back to the Perhaps this older man wishes children of his own. It is, in this case, a lot smarter to go with a woman of childbearing years rather than one who is late enough in life to have little chance of bearing children, if not post-menopausal. part, isn’t it smarter for a woman who wants children to go for a man who will be better able to help her raise them and is more likely to be around to help her with them as they grow up? I think that a younger man is more suited to that task in general.
I’ve personally never been anything but creeped out by the men my father’s age who hit on me. I’m 27 now and I’ve always liked men my own age. The couple of people I know who did like older guys had both serious daddy/family issues, as well as a taste for finer things (call it what you will) and liked being “taken care of.” I’d prefer to be on the same page as the person I’m with, however (and I am).
What I don’t understand is the Feminist stand
When you assume there is a single, capital-f Feminist stand, then yeah, you don’t understand.
In response to my comment about Debra’s hurt feelings, you decided that would be a great launching point to whine about those mean feminists.
Indeed, that particular “Feminist stand” isn’t my stand, and I consider myself a feminist.
I think certain kinds of age disparate relationships are unwise: I think it’s unwise for a young person who hasn’t yet been self-supporting to rush into a relationship with a much more financially established person, without having established any ability to stand independently. I think it’s unwise for someone who wants kids to wait too long to settle down, even if that person is male, because you generally can’t count on attracting people very much younger than you as you age. I think it’s stupid for men seeking to date younger women to turn to older women with arguments that amount to, “You have to understand, we need to date younger women because you guys are all so unpleasant and bitter” (as some men do). Just go ahead and try to date whomever you like, but don’t go around insulting some other set of people and expect them to like it (not saying that’s being done in this thread, but it’s happened in other threads on the age issue). Oh, and don’t bother arguing the biological inevitability of your choices, because, a) not every man inevitably goes for much younger women, and b) if a relationship is actually equal and mutual, it doesn’t matter. Etc.
But all those things said, once people are over the age of consent and assuming that neither has any special fiduciary relationship to the other, I don’t have any hard and fast rule either about older men getting involved with younger women, or about older women getting involved with younger men. From where I sit, some May/December relationships of all sexual combinations work, and I don’t have any particular feminist obligation to oppose them all. And as a middle aged woman, well, I already have my husband; it’s no skin off my nose who likes whom.
Not at all, Myth. I am not referring to some kind of Big F Feminist stand. I’m going by the comments in this thread as well as comments from past similar threads here and elsewhere. It’s not exactly an uncommon thought pattern here ( Lynn, I stand corrected on you). I think I can pretty well figure out who here is pro-feminist ( you are, right? ). I am not out to attack Feminism ( with the capital F). Doesn’t mean I can ‘t question your individual ideas, or the collective ideas of the feminists (little f) in these threads. I pose a question from what I observe here. You don’t have to respond to those questions if you don’t want to.
Lynn, I find myself in agreement with most of what you say, however unfortunately, these conversions eventually do get around to discussing the motivations of of the older men that seek young women and vice versa. Each man ( with the small M) has his own reasons that I am sure are important to him. We might not find them compelling, but there you are.
Likewise, the discussions as to what motivates women’s choices usually pops up and as with men, describing these choices in a public forum can be hurtful to some.
Nobody wants to be made to feel inferior and no group wants to be painted with the color of its most disrespected member. It’s poor manners to do so and throws a wet blanket on reasonable discourse. Would that everyone show a little more restraint.
Hey Giskard. I feel a bit labelled here, are you lumping all the women in together? because I am not angry with anyone in this situation, I can’t speak for anyone else. My concern for the younger woman stems from my own experiences with older men who have hit on me through the years and yes - it may feel safe etc to them, but I have found it extremely unnerving and an element of trust in whatever relationship we had disappears. I also know how much my 20’s meant to me. Being free - travelling etc with peers and finding out what I wanted from life, and establishing life long bonds (so far!!). Ok so we’re all different and I’m glad of that. I also know a few women who have been involved with older men for various reasons (and men with on older women). There’s always been some kind of parental element, or a reworking of a prior abuse. And I suppose they’re working their lives out - just like we are here. But I’m not angry with anyone in the situation held up for discussi