Comments on: The danger of confusing God and Caesar: quoting Richard Mouw on patriotism and faith http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/07/01/the-danger-of-confusing-god-and-caesar-quoting-richard-mouw-on-patriotism-and-faith/ Thu, 08 Jan 2009 02:18:24 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.3.3 By: djw http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/07/01/the-danger-of-confusing-god-and-caesar-quoting-richard-mouw-on-patriotism-and-faith/#comment-76043 djw Tue, 03 Jul 2007 19:08:07 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/07/01/the-danger-of-confusing-god-and-caesar-quoting-richard-mouw-on-patriotism-and-faith/#comment-76043 Gonzman, you should probably recount. Democracy doesn't automatically equal more freedom, but it's strongly correlated with it. This is a pretty robust and uncontroversial finding. Gonzman, you should probably recount. Democracy doesn’t automatically equal more freedom, but it’s strongly correlated with it. This is a pretty robust and uncontroversial finding.

]]> By: The Gonzman http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/07/01/the-danger-of-confusing-god-and-caesar-quoting-richard-mouw-on-patriotism-and-faith/#comment-75857 The Gonzman Tue, 03 Jul 2007 03:24:50 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/07/01/the-danger-of-confusing-god-and-caesar-quoting-richard-mouw-on-patriotism-and-faith/#comment-75857 Freedom =/= Democracy. Tyrants have been elected all through history, with about an equal amount of benign despots who offered a great deal of freedoms to their subjects. Freedom =/= Democracy.

Tyrants have been elected all through history, with about an equal amount of benign despots who offered a great deal of freedoms to their subjects.

]]> By: Hugo Schwyzer http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/07/01/the-danger-of-confusing-god-and-caesar-quoting-richard-mouw-on-patriotism-and-faith/#comment-75644 Hugo Schwyzer Mon, 02 Jul 2007 17:07:29 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/07/01/the-danger-of-confusing-god-and-caesar-quoting-richard-mouw-on-patriotism-and-faith/#comment-75644 Carla, I've never hiked Ben Nevis, though I have tramped elsewhere in the Cairngorms. Just magnificent country. Carla, I’ve never hiked Ben Nevis, though I have tramped elsewhere in the Cairngorms. Just magnificent country.

]]> By: carlaviii http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/07/01/the-danger-of-confusing-god-and-caesar-quoting-richard-mouw-on-patriotism-and-faith/#comment-75631 carlaviii Mon, 02 Jul 2007 16:12:00 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/07/01/the-danger-of-confusing-god-and-caesar-quoting-richard-mouw-on-patriotism-and-faith/#comment-75631 Funny you should mention Scotland... I was there in May for my long-dreamed-of tenth anniversary trip, and when I looked up at Ben Nevis (well, the clouds around Ben Nevis) I thought of you and wondered if that would be your kind of hiking trip. Funny you should mention Scotland… I was there in May for my long-dreamed-of tenth anniversary trip, and when I looked up at Ben Nevis (well, the clouds around Ben Nevis) I thought of you and wondered if that would be your kind of hiking trip.

]]> By: FridayLeap http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/07/01/the-danger-of-confusing-god-and-caesar-quoting-richard-mouw-on-patriotism-and-faith/#comment-75630 FridayLeap Mon, 02 Jul 2007 16:08:12 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/07/01/the-danger-of-confusing-god-and-caesar-quoting-richard-mouw-on-patriotism-and-faith/#comment-75630 Great post. I have split allegiances, one to the country of my birth, one to the country I have now made my home and one to the country I de-facto work in (I work for a US multinational and most of my work-life is effectively American, albeit via various forms of telecommunication). All three countries are wonderful and flawed in equal measures and while I will always think of myself as being of the nationality of my birth country I do not believe that any of them are the 'greatest' in any sense. Great post. I have split allegiances, one to the country of my birth, one to the country I have now made my home and one to the country I de-facto work in (I work for a US multinational and most of my work-life is effectively American, albeit via various forms of telecommunication). All three countries are wonderful and flawed in equal measures and while I will always think of myself as being of the nationality of my birth country I do not believe that any of them are the ‘greatest’ in any sense.

]]> By: Sneha http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/07/01/the-danger-of-confusing-god-and-caesar-quoting-richard-mouw-on-patriotism-and-faith/#comment-75628 Sneha Mon, 02 Jul 2007 15:57:18 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/07/01/the-danger-of-confusing-god-and-caesar-quoting-richard-mouw-on-patriotism-and-faith/#comment-75628 i'm glad you linked to this -- and very glad that mouw addressed it. i wish more american christians would read this. i’m glad you linked to this — and very glad that mouw addressed it. i wish more american christians would read this.

]]> By: djw http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/07/01/the-danger-of-confusing-god-and-caesar-quoting-richard-mouw-on-patriotism-and-faith/#comment-75421 djw Mon, 02 Jul 2007 03:52:24 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/07/01/the-danger-of-confusing-god-and-caesar-quoting-richard-mouw-on-patriotism-and-faith/#comment-75421 <i>the greater the temptation to confuse patriotism with authentic spiritual virtue</i> That makes sense, in theory. (In practice I'm not sure you'd see a correlation there) the greater the temptation to confuse patriotism with authentic spiritual virtue

That makes sense, in theory. (In practice I’m not sure you’d see a correlation there)

]]> By: Shawna R. B. Atteberry http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/07/01/the-danger-of-confusing-god-and-caesar-quoting-richard-mouw-on-patriotism-and-faith/#comment-75404 Shawna R. B. Atteberry Mon, 02 Jul 2007 02:49:40 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/07/01/the-danger-of-confusing-god-and-caesar-quoting-richard-mouw-on-patriotism-and-faith/#comment-75404 A great reminder for this week. One of the reasons I love going to a church that follows the lectionary is that the civic holidays don't turn into services that worship the American flag instead of Christ. A great reminder for this week. One of the reasons I love going to a church that follows the lectionary is that the civic holidays don’t turn into services that worship the American flag instead of Christ.

]]> By: Hugo Schwyzer http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/07/01/the-danger-of-confusing-god-and-caesar-quoting-richard-mouw-on-patriotism-and-faith/#comment-75352 Hugo Schwyzer Mon, 02 Jul 2007 00:08:30 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/07/01/the-danger-of-confusing-god-and-caesar-quoting-richard-mouw-on-patriotism-and-faith/#comment-75352 There's no question, DJW, that it's easier to be a Christian in a democratic state. The more repressive the state, the more the Christian is obligated to be in open (or at least quiet) rebellion against it. On the other hand, the more democratic the state, the greater the temptation to confuse patriotism with authentic spiritual virtue. There’s no question, DJW, that it’s easier to be a Christian in a democratic state. The more repressive the state, the more the Christian is obligated to be in open (or at least quiet) rebellion against it. On the other hand, the more democratic the state, the greater the temptation to confuse patriotism with authentic spiritual virtue.

]]> By: djw http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/07/01/the-danger-of-confusing-god-and-caesar-quoting-richard-mouw-on-patriotism-and-faith/#comment-75344 djw Sun, 01 Jul 2007 23:53:52 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/07/01/the-danger-of-confusing-god-and-caesar-quoting-richard-mouw-on-patriotism-and-faith/#comment-75344 This makes a great deal more sense than all the "God's Country" Christian patriotism we see today, but... <i>The fact that a country is a democracy with stable institutions gives it no greater claim on my loyalties as a Christian than if it were a murderous dictatorship.</i> Something seems puzzling about this. Elsewhere, you seem to be claiming that you feel an obligation to obey the state when the act of obeying doesn't entail an unjust act on your part. So, you pay your taxes but you don't turn your immigrant neighbor or employee in to INS or what have you. But some coercive state actions are neither inherently just or unjust (for example, collecting taxes) and a great deal about what separates justice from injustice for those acts is the process by which the state policy was reached. Now, if you take democracy seriously as a good, I expect one of the reasons for that is that democracy is a fundamentally more just way of making decisions. If a democratic majority votes to tax itself for a new stadium for a sports team, that's potentially legitimate, whereas authoritarian goons demanding that money to hand over to the NFL is not potentially legitimate, even if we thought it was good policy (which I don't, but that's neither here nor there). This is getting complicated, let me break it down to premises: 1) As a Christian strives to obey the state whenever her conscience and her God allow her to, and 2) A functional democratic state renders a number of everyday acts of government potentially legitimate and not unjust in a way other forms of government simply cannot, therefore 3) A democratic state will make one's everyday acts of obedience to the government more just than any other sort, and therefore 4) A Christian who cares about not being implicated in injustice should strongly prefer a democratic state to any other. When the state compells you to do an injustice--to kill, to turn in your neighbor to the INS, to discriminate, whatever--it doesn't matter whether it's a democratic state or not. But when the state does ordinary but coercive state-like activities, it should matter. This makes a great deal more sense than all the “God’s Country” Christian patriotism we see today, but…

The fact that a country is a democracy with stable institutions gives it no greater claim on my loyalties as a Christian than if it were a murderous dictatorship.

Something seems puzzling about this. Elsewhere, you seem to be claiming that you feel an obligation to obey the state when the act of obeying doesn’t entail an unjust act on your part. So, you pay your taxes but you don’t turn your immigrant neighbor or employee in to INS or what have you. But some coercive state actions are neither inherently just or unjust (for example, collecting taxes) and a great deal about what separates justice from injustice for those acts is the process by which the state policy was reached. Now, if you take democracy seriously as a good, I expect one of the reasons for that is that democracy is a fundamentally more just way of making decisions. If a democratic majority votes to tax itself for a new stadium for a sports team, that’s potentially legitimate, whereas authoritarian goons demanding that money to hand over to the NFL is not potentially legitimate, even if we thought it was good policy (which I don’t, but that’s neither here nor there).

This is getting complicated, let me break it down to premises:

1) As a Christian strives to obey the state whenever her conscience and her God allow her to, and

2) A functional democratic state renders a number of everyday acts of government potentially legitimate and not unjust in a way other forms of government simply cannot, therefore

3) A democratic state will make one’s everyday acts of obedience to the government more just than any other sort, and therefore

4) A Christian who cares about not being implicated in injustice should strongly prefer a democratic state to any other.

When the state compells you to do an injustice–to kill, to turn in your neighbor to the INS, to discriminate, whatever–it doesn’t matter whether it’s a democratic state or not. But when the state does ordinary but coercive state-like activities, it should matter.

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