As a volunteer youth minister, I was very interested to read this in my morning paper: Girl talk linked to depression, anxiety. It opens:
Constant venting over crushes, popularity or other personal problems may lead to anxiety and depression in girls — but not in boys, according to new research.
A study of 813 students ages 8 to 15 found that excessive discussions and rumination about problems strengthened friendships for both sexes, but those tighter bonds came at a cost for girls.
The study appears in this month’s issue of the journal Developmental Psychology.
Lead author Amanda Rose, assistant professor of psychology at the University of Missouri-Columbia, said the results might reflect a cultural tendency among girls to blame themselves when they aren’t invited to parties or when boys don’t call back.
“The more they talk about it, the more depressed and anxious they feel,” she said.
The findings add a cautionary note to the perennial advice to the young that they should share their problems rather than bottle them up.
“Talking about problems is a good thing, but too much talk is too much of a good thing,” Rose said.
I don’t spend much time working with younger kids (say, those in the 8-12 range). I have spent a great deal of time volunteering with both boys and girls in early-to-mid adolescence; if there’s one age group I spend more time with than any other it’s high school frosh, who are usually around 13-15.
I’m no expert in adolescent psychology, but the study does “ring true”. It’s certainly not the case that those girls who are the most consistently verbal and open about their feelings are always the emotionally healthiest. My concern, however, is about the reaction of adults to this study. The last thing that we need is moms and dads deciding, having skimmed an article or heard a television report, that their daughters need to spend less time talking to their friends and more time bottling up their feelings! Even more worrisome is the thought that some parents and teachers might overtly or covertly discourage girls from approaching them with their anxieties and doubts for fear that providing a listening ear will only worsen the problem.
One popular trend these days is to focus heavily on the “boy crisis”; pop psychologists (and men’s rights advocates) have loudly complained that we’ve spent too much time collectively worrying about girls, and not enough about boys. These advocates for boys are often convinced that love, time, and resources are part of a zero-sum game, and that the trend of the 1990s (epitomized by Mary Pipher’s colossally influential Reviving Ophelia) towards focusing on girls was misplaced and led to boys’ needs being systematically ignored. Boys, these folks argue, are actually much more at risk of low self-esteem today than girls.
But the study reported today suggests that peer support systems are still less effective for many girls than for boys:
Researchers first looked at whether depression or anxiety increased the likelihood that students would obsessively discuss their problems. They found that boys and girls with emotional difficulties were more likely to ruminate about their troubles.
Researchers then examined the effect of rumination on students’ emotional well-being and friendships.
Boys reported no change in feelings of anxiety or depression, but girls said they felt worse.
Since the boys in this study were already self-identified as depressed or anxious, their tendency to report that they didn’t feel worse as a result of discussing their problem can’t be attributable to a masculine desire to appear strong and impervious to psychic pain. Rather, it seems clear that something about the way in which “girl-talk” functions among the young serves to exacerbate rather than relieve many emotional problems.
In my own youth, I struggled with both an eating disorder and chronic self-mutilation. I often found myself in support groups for those who suffered with similar issues; typically, I was (as a male) very much in a minority. I also was often the oldest person in the group, as my anorectic and self-mutilating behavior peaked in my early twenties rather than in my early-to-mid-teens, like many young women. And in these groups, I saw quickly how vital it was to have all discussion moderated by either a therapist or a mature fellow sufferer who had a lot of recovery. Unmoderated, discussion about dieting or cutting quickly turned competitive; a girl would say something like “Yeah, I’m not doing so good, I only ate a banana yesterday.” You could count on having another girl say seconds later, “Yeah, me too, I only drank water and diet coke yesterday.” The subtle one-”upwomanship” often left many of the young women in the group even more depressed and alienated, and it took good and aggressive therapists to keep things positive. (This was back before the proliferation of the “pro-ana” sites on the web that offer “support” to those who are competitively anorexic or self-mutilating.)
As feminists, we need to recognize that the way in which girls talk to each other about their bodies or emotions is heavily influenced by a culture that encourages bitter female rivalry. We know that anxiety about body image and boys begins well before physical puberty, and that that anxiety is shaped in ways that emphasize competition with other girls. This rivalry is much stronger among girls than among boys. This doesn’t mean boys don’t compete, it means that their competition is far more limited. Boys tend to compete only about sports and grades and (later) real or imagined prowess with the other sex; girls compete over their appearance, and it seems, over their very identities.
To get a sense of this, listen to how girls use the word “hate” much more frequently to describe other women whom they envy. “She’s so pretty and skinny, I just hate her!” is a fairly common phrase to hear from fifteen-year old girls. When was the last time you heard a teen boy say of a peer, “He’s so handsome, I hate him” or “Peyton Manning is such a great quarterback, I just hate him”? (Boys may hate the star of the opposing team, but they are much less likely to loathe the lad who’s leading their own squad.) Intra-female conversation among teen girls is much more likely to be self-deprecating than that among boys, and it’s also far more likely to include disparaging remarks about the appearance or identity of perceived rivals.
It’s not the case that girls are “naturally” more introspective, or more filled with self-doubt, or are more cruel than their brothers. But because we inculcate in girls an absolutely impossible, unattainable ideal of physical and emotional perfection at such an early age, we set many young women up both for self-loathing and for hostility towards their female peers. It’s little wonder, then, that this study finds that talking about anxiety and depression isn’t as helpful for girls as it is for boys. It is a sign that those of us who care about young people need to be particularly attuned to the lack of resources that young girls have for safe and healthy opportunities to talk. Safe and healthy, by definition, means an uncompetitive environment, and it means providing them with understanding listeners whom these girls will not perceive as either judges or rivals.
Interesting. Another thing that crosses my mind, from my own experience, is that guys are more likely react to other people’s troubles with a spirit of problem-solving — what a friend of mine calls “Male Advice-Giving Syndrome.” This can be annoying if taken to excess, but it does tend to be more optimistic than saying “That must be really hard for you,” or words to that effect. (Though the fact that confiding in friends doesn’t improve guys’ depression, according to this study, suggests that the problem-solving is more of a hope than a reality.)
I think you’re right that proffering solutions (even when those solutions aren’t viable) is more of a male habit in our society, and that may give young men an antidote against despair that their sisters don’t always have.
I think that’s the main difference here, not societal conditioning of the sexes. Women resenting efforts by men to help solve their problems rather than merely listen is a bit of a cliche. From there, it’s not hard to extrapolate how bitch-sessions between women may lead to a lot of listening, a lot of trading bad stories, and no discussion of even the possibility that any of the problems in question may be solvable. Of course they won’t feel any better after that!
Dwelling on and rehashing one’s negative feelings can reinforce them instead of being cathartic, if one isn’t given the tools to manage the emotions this stirs up — a drawback I’ve found in traditional psychoanalysis as compared to cognitive therapy. As the commenters above mentioned, men’s problem-solving orientation may mitigate this while women are more likely to get stuck on feelings as an object of interest in themselves. I’m more man-like in that regard.
Excellent point, Hugo, about how men and women speak differently about people they admire. Imagine saying to other women at the gym “I think I’m looking good today” or “I set a new personal record in the weight room” — I’d never do that because I’d be afraid of making them feel bad. Or afraid that they would say, “Jendi looks so good, I hate her!” (I should be so lucky.) I bet there’s a lot more bragging on the men’s side of the lockers. Men bond thru dominance displays and women thru submission displays…?
That kinda doesn’t make sense unless you assume that men are eagerly taking one another’s advice and using it to solve their problems.
In my experience, women and girls are more likely to give practical, problem-solving advice than men and boys are. I know that’s always my first gut reaction when a friend comes to me with a problem — that I have to figure out how to fix it. And the men in my life have been much less likely to react that way than the women when I talk to them about my problems. Maybe I’m an unusual case, though.
I do think there is a huge amount of unacknowledged rivalry between even really close female friends, and I definitely think that’s part of the problem. But my first thought was simply that the system is straight up stacked against girls, so no wonder that talking about their problems makes girls feel more discouraged. Resolution for their problems is likely to require — or both they and their friends assume it’s going to require — that they do more than their fair share of the emotional heavy lifting (e.g. in arguments with boyfriends), and sometimes it’s just flat out impossible for the girl to achieve any reasonable resolution without the help of others who may not be willing to help (e.g. discrimination, harassment). Talking extensively about your problems doesn’t help if it just makes you feel more stuck (similar to what Jendi said).
(I think this is my first comment here, by the way. I’ve been lurking for a while…)
And the men in my life have been much less likely to react that way than the women when I talk to them about my problems. Maybe I’m an unusual case, though.
As for this man, I have heard the “Listen, don’t solve my problems” so often, I put oin the concerned expression, nod and grunt when appropriate, think about something else, and don’t proffer solutions.
The guys who like to give advice when girls discuss their problems with them tend to be the “knight in shining armor” types. The “bad boys,” in my experience, are less likely to care at all.
It’s been my experience that women indeed do not want a man to solve their problems. This wouldn’t be so bad except they also want to continue agonizing over them with you. They want you to wring your hands with them over a problem you didn’t create and can’t solve. A problem that may, in fact, not even actually have a solution .
I’ve seen more than one relationship come apart because a man eventually grows reluctant to engage in this continual angst. Or, as it gets called around here, reluctant to “do emotional work.”
Xrlq said: From there, it’s not hard to extrapolate how bitch-sessions between women may lead to a lot of listening, a lot of trading bad stories, and no discussion of even the possibility that any of the problems in question may be solvable. Of course they won’t feel any better after that!
I think that hits the nail right on the head. No wonder most of my friends were guys, back in school. (and thus, no wonder that I have some “male” personality traits)
Hugo said: These advocates for boys are often convinced that love, time, and resources are part of a zero-sum game
Well, when my parents both worked and only had X amount of time to talk over dinner and the subject kept turning into “Why is Little Brother suddenly getting into so many fights at school?”, I’d say yeah, it is a zero sum game. And yeah, unspoken pressure to be The Good One and not let on to having any problems.
I wouldn’t be so quick to pin things on the solving versus empathy divide. Solving can quite easily make someone feel bad — it can send a message of “you moron, why didn’t you think to do X?” whereas empathy reassures a person that their problem is legitimate, hence reducing the meta-distress about being such a screw-up that you’d have the problem in the first place.
I guess one needs to be a bit diplomatic when proffering advice. Those who don’t do so have occasionally ticked me off–but no more so than the ones who have nothing more to say than “ooh, that must be so frustrating” when it is the 12th time I had heard that exact same phrase that week.
Psychoanalysis? Don’t get me started.
Stentor put it very well about how giving advice can make the recipient feel stupid, and so a good counteractant would be to preface it with some acknowledgment or reminder that said recipient isn’t the only one with the problem, and lots of people screw up on their way out of it. Etc.
One often needs both a bit of commiseration and a bit of advice/strategy. One also needs to know how to do more, in the way of asking for help, than just whine about one’s problems, but one does not always get to learn these things. Gonzman and the Chief sound like they’ve run into too many women who haven’t been taught to do more than whine. Or is it that they hear everything as a whine? Makes me glad to be single…
Slight tangent–some while back, don’t even recall the decade, I was so hard up for reading matter than I looked into a handful of teen girls’ mags, and they all featured a regular section of tales of agonizingly embarrassing experiences–but there was no similar section for the sharing of triumphant ones, of the use of one’s cleverness. I went back to Mad Magazine.
Gonzman and the Chief sound like they’ve run into too many women who haven’t been taught to do more than whine. Or is it that they hear everything as a whine?
I have heard “I don’t need a rescuer.”
Okay. Happy to oblige.
Then why are girls friendships perceived to be so much more solid than those of the boys?
Perceived by who, mft? I’m sure this will lead to a dissent from somebody and ultimately it’s a matter of YMMV, but it’s my experience that guy friendships are much more solid. Women seem to roll ‘em over every few years, over the most insignificant slight, real or imagined. Jealousy over a boyfriend or who gets the most attention from a mother figure or a pair of SHOES, for pity’s sake, is often enough to end a friendship, or at least put it on hold. I (and most guys I know) still have a solid set of friends from high school.
Of course, the definition of “solid,” and, for that matter, “friendship” may be the difference. Women seem to want a soulmate from their friends. Very few guys are interested in a guy friend with whom they can share every secret or any mutual shoulder-crying sessions. Chip in for the beer, be there to move the couch and shut up during the fourth quarter is pretty much all we need. In other words, guy friendships are more solid because of more realistic expectations.
personally, i think it’s more about narcissism. from a really young age, we’re taught to be pretty, and be the center of attention-we’re only important and worthy when everybody is transfixed on us, whether it be good or bad. if we don’t get that attention, then we’ve failed and that is what breeds self doubt.
look at barbie. always the star of the show, sure she has friends-but she’s the staple. the narcissism is being heavily, but subtlety is ingrained in our way of thought. so we’re clawing for that attention, we don’t realize it at times, as you said with the girls trying to outdo each other with the sob stories.
and i think with boys, it’s more about power and control.
Sometimes–but you’re right, not all the time–the “I don’t need you to solve my problems” has a subtext of “But I do need to whine [or growl] about them for a while.” I’ve been on both ends of it. As for the solidity of friendships, I know of 2 different female friendships that have lasted more than a decade; one, started in 1969, is still going strong, the other ended only with one friend’s death. I’m an introvert and don’t know a lot of people, so examples could doubtless be multiplied. I notice however that the women involved were all old enough or more likely smart enough not to get caught up in the common, silly jealousies the Chief mentioned. Nor did they expect a “soulmate”, though there was more intellectual discussion involved than just watching tv together. Of course, this was before blogs, when people had to talk…
Again, Chief, I wonder if your observations of women are being influenced by having been married to a woman with bipolar disorder; bipolar disorder, especially in combination with substance abuse and resistance to treatment, can do a number on the stability of a person’s friendships. (I’m not saying, of course, that a person with bipolar disorder can’t have lasting friendships - but taking your meds scrupulously and not drinking or using drugs really matters here.)
Personally, I have female friends that I’ve had for decades, all my sisters have at least one friendship with another woman that’s lasted for decades, and so does my mother, so I don’t women’s friendships as nearly as fragile as you say. But on the other hand, I’m not convinced women’s friendships are more solid than men’s; my father also had friendships that lasted for decades, and so do some other men I’ve known.
The whole bonding around talking about your appearance aspect of female friendships drives me nuts, though; I remember at a certain point having to consciously learn both how to find something to talk about when conversation turned to fashion (which I don’t enjoy half as much as Hugo does) and how to find things about my appearance to put down, so I’d look just as uneasy about my looks as everyone else. Luckily I get to drop some of this as I grow older. And I don’t worry about it with my close friends; then I’m just myself.
I suffered depression as a teenager and as an adult. My family often told me that I dwelled on problems. My take on this is that chronic family problems were not addressed in a healthy way and that is one reason why I focused on them. I do believe there is an element of culturally conditioned rivalry among girls/women with a focus tending to be about appearance. It is very unhealthy for girls and unfortunately many of these behaviors can and do extend into adulthood as well.
Advice giving is not problem-solving. Advice-giving is unhealthy and about the person giving the advice. Being encouraged to stifle “negative” (unpleasant) emotions is UNHEALTHY. Advice-giving is not empathy or acknowledgment (both key ingredients in healthy problem-solving). I believe problem-solving takes someone who is able to engage in empathetic listening. Listening is key. Here’s a great website that deals with empathy, listening skills and acknowleging: http://www.touch-another-heart.com/ch9.htm