Comments on: Girl talk, depression, and culturally conditioned rivalry

By: Karen

Karen — Mon, 27 Aug 2007 18:06:48 +0000

I suffered depression as a teenager and as an adult. My family often told me that I dwelled on problems. My take on this is that chronic family problems were not addressed in a healthy way and that is one reason why I focused on them. I do believe there is an element of culturally conditioned rivalry among girls/women with a focus tending to be about appearance. It is very unhealthy for girls and unfortunately many of these behaviors can and do extend into adulthood as well.

Advice giving is not problem-solving. Advice-giving is unhealthy and about the person giving the advice. Being encouraged to stifle “negative” (unpleasant) emotions is UNHEALTHY. Advice-giving is not empathy or acknowledgment (both key ingredients in healthy problem-solving). I believe problem-solving takes someone who is able to engage in empathetic listening. Listening is key. Here’s a great website that deals with empathy, listening skills and acknowleging: http://www.touch-another-heart.com/ch9.htm

By: Lynn Gazis-Sax

Lynn Gazis-Sax — Sun, 22 Jul 2007 04:51:19 +0000

Again, Chief, I wonder if your observations of women are being influenced by having been married to a woman with bipolar disorder; bipolar disorder, especially in combination with substance abuse and resistance to treatment, can do a number on the stability of a person’s friendships. (I’m not saying, of course, that a person with bipolar disorder can’t have lasting friendships - but taking your meds scrupulously and not drinking or using drugs really matters here.)

Personally, I have female friends that I’ve had for decades, all my sisters have at least one friendship with another woman that’s lasted for decades, and so does my mother, so I don’t women’s friendships as nearly as fragile as you say. But on the other hand, I’m not convinced women’s friendships are more solid than men’s; my father also had friendships that lasted for decades, and so do some other men I’ve known.

The whole bonding around talking about your appearance aspect of female friendships drives me nuts, though; I remember at a certain point having to consciously learn both how to find something to talk about when conversation turned to fashion (which I don’t enjoy half as much as Hugo does) and how to find things about my appearance to put down, so I’d look just as uneasy about my looks as everyone else. Luckily I get to drop some of this as I grow older. And I don’t worry about it with my close friends; then I’m just myself.

By: Angiportus

Angiportus — Sat, 21 Jul 2007 13:35:52 +0000

Sometimes–but you’re right, not all the time–the “I don’t need you to solve my problems” has a subtext of “But I do need to whine [or growl] about them for a while.” I’ve been on both ends of it. As for the solidity of friendships, I know of 2 different female friendships that have lasted more than a decade; one, started in 1969, is still going strong, the other ended only with one friend’s death. I’m an introvert and don’t know a lot of people, so examples could doubtless be multiplied. I notice however that the women involved were all old enough or more likely smart enough not to get caught up in the common, silly jealousies the Chief mentioned. Nor did they expect a “soulmate”, though there was more intellectual discussion involved than just watching tv together. Of course, this was before blogs, when people had to talk…

By: theverycold

theverycold — Sat, 21 Jul 2007 09:43:20 +0000

personally, i think it’s more about narcissism. from a really young age, we’re taught to be pretty, and be the center of attention-we’re only important and worthy when everybody is transfixed on us, whether it be good or bad. if we don’t get that attention, then we’ve failed and that is what breeds self doubt.

look at barbie. always the star of the show, sure she has friends-but she’s the staple. the narcissism is being heavily, but subtlety is ingrained in our way of thought. so we’re clawing for that attention, we don’t realize it at times, as you said with the girls trying to outdo each other with the sob stories.

and i think with boys, it’s more about power and control.

By: The Chief

The Chief — Fri, 20 Jul 2007 15:33:13 +0000

Perceived by who, mft? I’m sure this will lead to a dissent from somebody and ultimately it’s a matter of YMMV, but it’s my experience that guy friendships are much more solid. Women seem to roll ‘em over every few years, over the most insignificant slight, real or imagined. Jealousy over a boyfriend or who gets the most attention from a mother figure or a pair of SHOES, for pity’s sake, is often enough to end a friendship, or at least put it on hold. I (and most guys I know) still have a solid set of friends from high school.

Of course, the definition of “solid,” and, for that matter, “friendship” may be the difference. Women seem to want a soulmate from their friends. Very few guys are interested in a guy friend with whom they can share every secret or any mutual shoulder-crying sessions. Chip in for the beer, be there to move the couch and shut up during the fourth quarter is pretty much all we need. In other words, guy friendships are more solid because of more realistic expectations.

By: mft

mft — Fri, 20 Jul 2007 12:23:09 +0000

Then why are girls friendships perceived to be so much more solid than those of the boys?

By: The Gonzman

The Gonzman — Thu, 19 Jul 2007 13:35:48 +0000

Gonzman and the Chief sound like they’ve run into too many women who haven’t been taught to do more than whine. Or is it that they hear everything as a whine?

I have heard “I don’t need a rescuer.”

Okay. Happy to oblige.

By: Angiportus

Angiportus — Thu, 19 Jul 2007 11:02:22 +0000

I guess one needs to be a bit diplomatic when proffering advice. Those who don’t do so have occasionally ticked me off–but no more so than the ones who have nothing more to say than “ooh, that must be so frustrating” when it is the 12th time I had heard that exact same phrase that week.
Psychoanalysis? Don’t get me started.
Stentor put it very well about how giving advice can make the recipient feel stupid, and so a good counteractant would be to preface it with some acknowledgment or reminder that said recipient isn’t the only one with the problem, and lots of people screw up on their way out of it. Etc.
One often needs both a bit of commiseration and a bit of advice/strategy. One also needs to know how to do more, in the way of asking for help, than just whine about one’s problems, but one does not always get to learn these things. Gonzman and the Chief sound like they’ve run into too many women who haven’t been taught to do more than whine. Or is it that they hear everything as a whine? Makes me glad to be single…
Slight tangent–some while back, don’t even recall the decade, I was so hard up for reading matter than I looked into a handful of teen girls’ mags, and they all featured a regular section of tales of agonizingly embarrassing experiences–but there was no similar section for the sharing of triumphant ones, of the use of one’s cleverness. I went back to Mad Magazine.

By: Stentor

Stentor — Thu, 19 Jul 2007 02:51:29 +0000

I wouldn’t be so quick to pin things on the solving versus empathy divide. Solving can quite easily make someone feel bad — it can send a message of “you moron, why didn’t you think to do X?” whereas empathy reassures a person that their problem is legitimate, hence reducing the meta-distress about being such a screw-up that you’d have the problem in the first place.

By: carlaviii

carlaviii — Thu, 19 Jul 2007 02:23:14 +0000

Xrlq said: From there, it’s not hard to extrapolate how bitch-sessions between women may lead to a lot of listening, a lot of trading bad stories, and no discussion of even the possibility that any of the problems in question may be solvable. Of course they won’t feel any better after that!

I think that hits the nail right on the head. No wonder most of my friends were guys, back in school. (and thus, no wonder that I have some “male” personality traits)

Hugo said: These advocates for boys are often convinced that love, time, and resources are part of a zero-sum game

Well, when my parents both worked and only had X amount of time to talk over dinner and the subject kept turning into “Why is Little Brother suddenly getting into so many fights at school?”, I’d say yeah, it is a zero sum game. And yeah, unspoken pressure to be The Good One and not let on to having any problems.