Comments on: Friendship, weight, and the collective rejection of an unattainable ideal http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/07/26/friendship-weight-and-the-collective-rejection-of-an-unattainable-ideal/ Fri, 05 Dec 2008 08:59:31 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.3.3 By: carlaviii http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/07/26/friendship-weight-and-the-collective-rejection-of-an-unattainable-ideal/#comment-89557 carlaviii Tue, 31 Jul 2007 14:41:10 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/07/26/friendship-weight-and-the-collective-rejection-of-an-unattainable-ideal/#comment-89557 Oh, great. Someone finally realized that all this hype about the "obesity epidemic" is stupid because fat isn't a contagious disease, so let's pony up some numbers to make look like it is. Gee, I wonder who funded that study. Oh, great. Someone finally realized that all this hype about the “obesity epidemic” is stupid because fat isn’t a contagious disease, so let’s pony up some numbers to make look like it is.

Gee, I wonder who funded that study.

]]> By: Katie http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/07/26/friendship-weight-and-the-collective-rejection-of-an-unattainable-ideal/#comment-88012 Katie Fri, 27 Jul 2007 20:53:05 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/07/26/friendship-weight-and-the-collective-rejection-of-an-unattainable-ideal/#comment-88012 I'm a little surprised that no one has really attributed this to some kind of self selection. I mean, really, so many other groups of people self-segregate, why not (at least somewhat) by weight? In my experience, people have a tendency towards hanging out with people that look like themselves or who have similar habits. Sometimes we overcome these things, but certainly not always. Just a thought. I’m a little surprised that no one has really attributed this to some kind of self selection. I mean, really, so many other groups of people self-segregate, why not (at least somewhat) by weight? In my experience, people have a tendency towards hanging out with people that look like themselves or who have similar habits. Sometimes we overcome these things, but certainly not always. Just a thought.

]]> By: mythago http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/07/26/friendship-weight-and-the-collective-rejection-of-an-unattainable-ideal/#comment-87977 mythago Fri, 27 Jul 2007 19:21:22 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/07/26/friendship-weight-and-the-collective-rejection-of-an-unattainable-ideal/#comment-87977 The study itself can be found and read, FOR FREE, at the NEJM website. The study itself can be found and read, FOR FREE, at the NEJM website.

]]> By: Elaine Vigneault http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/07/26/friendship-weight-and-the-collective-rejection-of-an-unattainable-ideal/#comment-87967 Elaine Vigneault Fri, 27 Jul 2007 18:55:09 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/07/26/friendship-weight-and-the-collective-rejection-of-an-unattainable-ideal/#comment-87967 Amanda says the correlation between having fat friends and being fat is between men, not women: http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/07/26/having-fat-friends-does-not-hurt-your-standing-in-the-patriarchy/ Interesting. Amanda says the correlation between having fat friends and being fat is between men, not women:
http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/07/26/having-fat-friends-does-not-hurt-your-standing-in-the-patriarchy/
Interesting.

]]> By: alice http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/07/26/friendship-weight-and-the-collective-rejection-of-an-unattainable-ideal/#comment-87644 alice Thu, 26 Jul 2007 23:57:52 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/07/26/friendship-weight-and-the-collective-rejection-of-an-unattainable-ideal/#comment-87644 One thing that galls me about the news coverage of the study is that the study didn't examine the *cause* of this correlation of weights - it simply found that there was a correlation of weights - someone with heavy friends is likely to also be heavier. The idea that it's due to social pressure is simply a postulation, albeit a likely one. It has not been proven. And addressing Martin above, I think that it's a very tricky thing to separate out exercise from the social pressure to look thin - even as someone who played multiple sports growing up, and who enjoyed them, as an adult it's been difficult to get into the idea of exercise as something I can do that's enjoyable - it's always presented to me as a way to get thin, and by people who have a problem with my fatness. And they have a problem with the *fatness*, not my health - the fact that I'm a vegetarian, don't drink and haven't smoked for years is not discussed, ever. The fact that I'm overweight is the sole reason behind (most) people's concern. I know many people who, after years of screwing up their metabolisms, are fit and eat healthfully but are still overweight (or obese). Yes, they could diet down to a lower weight, but after what their bodies have already been through, it would require permanent low-level starvation to remain at that weight. Seeing someone with a paunch is not equivalent to seeing someone who is unhealthy.' That's leaving aside the whole issue of whether it's okay to judge folks based on their health - I sympathize with folks who want to make sure people are making decisions with complete information, like Martin above, but I chafe at the idea that people are judging me based on my decisions about my health. One thing that galls me about the news coverage of the study is that the study didn’t examine the *cause* of this correlation of weights - it simply found that there was a correlation of weights - someone with heavy friends is likely to also be heavier. The idea that it’s due to social pressure is simply a postulation, albeit a likely one. It has not been proven.

And addressing Martin above, I think that it’s a very tricky thing to separate out exercise from the social pressure to look thin - even as someone who played multiple sports growing up, and who enjoyed them, as an adult it’s been difficult to get into the idea of exercise as something I can do that’s enjoyable - it’s always presented to me as a way to get thin, and by people who have a problem with my fatness. And they have a problem with the *fatness*, not my health - the fact that I’m a vegetarian, don’t drink and haven’t smoked for years is not discussed, ever. The fact that I’m overweight is the sole reason behind (most) people’s concern.

I know many people who, after years of screwing up their metabolisms, are fit and eat healthfully but are still overweight (or obese). Yes, they could diet down to a lower weight, but after what their bodies have already been through, it would require permanent low-level starvation to remain at that weight. Seeing someone with a paunch is not equivalent to seeing someone who is unhealthy.’

That’s leaving aside the whole issue of whether it’s okay to judge folks based on their health - I sympathize with folks who want to make sure people are making decisions with complete information, like Martin above, but I chafe at the idea that people are judging me based on my decisions about my health.

]]> By: Martin http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/07/26/friendship-weight-and-the-collective-rejection-of-an-unattainable-ideal/#comment-87633 Martin Thu, 26 Jul 2007 23:08:00 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/07/26/friendship-weight-and-the-collective-rejection-of-an-unattainable-ideal/#comment-87633 Well, the issue is: are people concerned about "being heavier than what is considered desirable" for <i>good health</i> reasons or simply for <i>looks</i> reasons? I think there's too much of the latter way of thinking and not enough of the former. When people are motivated by the latter, their approach to weight loss is, as you say, neurotic and stupid. If it's the former, what you tend to see are people enjoying living an active lifestyle. As a guy in my early 40's, I consider a flat stomach more desirable than a paunch because the latter can contribute to things like heart disease and other issues as I get into my 50's and 60's. It also looks better, but that reason isn't the #1 motivator as it was in my 20's. Well, the issue is: are people concerned about “being heavier than what is considered desirable” for good health reasons or simply for looks reasons? I think there’s too much of the latter way of thinking and not enough of the former. When people are motivated by the latter, their approach to weight loss is, as you say, neurotic and stupid. If it’s the former, what you tend to see are people enjoying living an active lifestyle.

As a guy in my early 40’s, I consider a flat stomach more desirable than a paunch because the latter can contribute to things like heart disease and other issues as I get into my 50’s and 60’s. It also looks better, but that reason isn’t the #1 motivator as it was in my 20’s.

]]> By: Hugo Schwyzer http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/07/26/friendship-weight-and-the-collective-rejection-of-an-unattainable-ideal/#comment-87543 Hugo Schwyzer Thu, 26 Jul 2007 19:43:05 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/07/26/friendship-weight-and-the-collective-rejection-of-an-unattainable-ideal/#comment-87543 Martin, you don't need to sell me on the merits of fitness. But all things being equal, I'd rather have folks who are under-exercised and well-fed and happy than neurotically counting calories, high on self-denial, and full of anxiety about their bodies. Morbid obesity is one thing, being heavier than what is considered desirable is another. Martin, you don’t need to sell me on the merits of fitness. But all things being equal, I’d rather have folks who are under-exercised and well-fed and happy than neurotically counting calories, high on self-denial, and full of anxiety about their bodies. Morbid obesity is one thing, being heavier than what is considered desirable is another.

]]> By: Martin http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/07/26/friendship-weight-and-the-collective-rejection-of-an-unattainable-ideal/#comment-87490 Martin Thu, 26 Jul 2007 17:47:05 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/07/26/friendship-weight-and-the-collective-rejection-of-an-unattainable-ideal/#comment-87490 Well, it's no surprise that the "news" media in this country presents matters in a distorted and emotionally leading way. What really should be happening is this: obesity ought to be addressed as a health matter, not just an appearance or "meeting an ideal" matter, and idiot teens who think the alternative to obesity is starving yourself into anorexia ought to get a good smack and be told that the real alternative is <i>fitness</i>. Being fit -- even if all you're doing is taking a brisk walk every day -- just feels better than being a couch potato slug <i>or</i> a pencil-thin waif who faints from exhaustion merely by standing up. As expected, I disagree with Hugo on one point: <i>There’s nothing wrong with that, just as there’s nothing wrong with a group of people who don’t enjoy exercise and hate dieting mutually supporting each other as they collectively reject a societal ideal of thinness.</i> Well, I do think there's a little something wring with the latter, as people who turn up their nose at exercise for the reason of "rejecting a societal ideal of thinness" are doing so for the wrong reason and essentially pooling their own stupidity to their collective detriment. Not all social reinforcement is good, such as (to use an extreme example) racists getting together to mutually support one another's whiteness as they "collectively reject a societal ideal" of tolerance. People are free to eat badly and refuse to exercise if they wish, but they ought to be informed that if their decision is based on rejecting media images of thinness, they're missing the point. The point is reduced life expectancy, and an increased chance of illnesses like diabetes and heart disease. As long as people are armed with facts and not bogus cultural ideals, then hey, let them be free to make their own smart or stupid choices as they see fit. It just discourages me to see people making stupid choices because they've been misinformed. Well, it’s no surprise that the “news” media in this country presents matters in a distorted and emotionally leading way. What really should be happening is this: obesity ought to be addressed as a health matter, not just an appearance or “meeting an ideal” matter, and idiot teens who think the alternative to obesity is starving yourself into anorexia ought to get a good smack and be told that the real alternative is fitness. Being fit — even if all you’re doing is taking a brisk walk every day — just feels better than being a couch potato slug or a pencil-thin waif who faints from exhaustion merely by standing up.

As expected, I disagree with Hugo on one point:

There’s nothing wrong with that, just as there’s nothing wrong with a group of people who don’t enjoy exercise and hate dieting mutually supporting each other as they collectively reject a societal ideal of thinness.

Well, I do think there’s a little something wring with the latter, as people who turn up their nose at exercise for the reason of “rejecting a societal ideal of thinness” are doing so for the wrong reason and essentially pooling their own stupidity to their collective detriment. Not all social reinforcement is good, such as (to use an extreme example) racists getting together to mutually support one another’s whiteness as they “collectively reject a societal ideal” of tolerance. People are free to eat badly and refuse to exercise if they wish, but they ought to be informed that if their decision is based on rejecting media images of thinness, they’re missing the point. The point is reduced life expectancy, and an increased chance of illnesses like diabetes and heart disease. As long as people are armed with facts and not bogus cultural ideals, then hey, let them be free to make their own smart or stupid choices as they see fit. It just discourages me to see people making stupid choices because they’ve been misinformed.

]]> By: metamanda http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/07/26/friendship-weight-and-the-collective-rejection-of-an-unattainable-ideal/#comment-87456 metamanda Thu, 26 Jul 2007 16:29:30 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/07/26/friendship-weight-and-the-collective-rejection-of-an-unattainable-ideal/#comment-87456 Ergh, I'm annoyed that they've focused specifically on obesity in the study when it seems so much more likely that disordered eating in general (including anorexia, bulimia, and the kinds of disordered eating that make people unhealthily thin) would spread via social networks as well. So what this is telling me is that they only care about how disordered eating spreads if it makes you look bad according to conventional beauty standards. I'm interested also in the evidence they found that living hundreds of miles away from friends made no difference. If you're not seeing them often, then how are they managing to affect your perceptions of how people should look? Ergh, I’m annoyed that they’ve focused specifically on obesity in the study when it seems so much more likely that disordered eating in general (including anorexia, bulimia, and the kinds of disordered eating that make people unhealthily thin) would spread via social networks as well. So what this is telling me is that they only care about how disordered eating spreads if it makes you look bad according to conventional beauty standards.

I’m interested also in the evidence they found that living hundreds of miles away from friends made no difference. If you’re not seeing them often, then how are they managing to affect your perceptions of how people should look?

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