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	<title>Comments on: Cosmetic surgery and the co-opting of feminist language: an excellent new Ms. article</title>
	<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/08/02/cosmetic-surgery-and-the-co-opting-of-feminist-language-an-excellent-new-ms-article/</link>
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	<pubDate>Thu, 08 Jan 2009 02:57:35 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Her Fall From Grace &#171; When She Speaks I Hear the Revolution</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/08/02/cosmetic-surgery-and-the-co-opting-of-feminist-language-an-excellent-new-ms-article/#comment-112514</link>
		<dc:creator>Her Fall From Grace &#171; When She Speaks I Hear the Revolution</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Sep 2007 00:28:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/08/02/cosmetic-surgery-and-the-co-opting-of-feminist-language-an-excellent-new-ms-article/#comment-112514</guid>
		<description>[...] So what&#8217;s with the double standard? Why must women be small/petite (but preferably with rounded curves&#8230;and if she doesn&#8217;t have &#8216;em&#8230;why! that&#8217;s what cosmetic surgery is for&#8230;but that&#8217;s another story&#8230;) Why is it that we as women are brought before the judge and jury when we are found lacking in appearance? Why is it we must fear wrinkles when men can proudly brandish theirs and say, &#8220;hey, look at me! I&#8217;m distinguished!&#8221; Why is it we must buy into a culture that says women can&#8217;t be happy and look how we want to look/how we naturally look? This look does not a good woman make, for she must shave, put on makeup and follow the other rites of beauty. Women who are too fat, too old, too calloused are exposed to the world as frauds, as imposters. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[&#8230;] So what&#8217;s with the double standard? Why must women be small/petite (but preferably with rounded curves&#8230;and if she doesn&#8217;t have &#8216;em&#8230;why! that&#8217;s what cosmetic surgery is for&#8230;but that&#8217;s another story&#8230;) Why is it that we as women are brought before the judge and jury when we are found lacking in appearance? Why is it we must fear wrinkles when men can proudly brandish theirs and say, &#8220;hey, look at me! I&#8217;m distinguished!&#8221; Why is it we must buy into a culture that says women can&#8217;t be happy and look how we want to look/how we naturally look? This look does not a good woman make, for she must shave, put on makeup and follow the other rites of beauty. Women who are too fat, too old, too calloused are exposed to the world as frauds, as imposters. [&#8230;]</p>
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		<title>By: media girl</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/08/02/cosmetic-surgery-and-the-co-opting-of-feminist-language-an-excellent-new-ms-article/#comment-94230</link>
		<dc:creator>media girl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Aug 2007 20:18:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/08/02/cosmetic-surgery-and-the-co-opting-of-feminist-language-an-excellent-new-ms-article/#comment-94230</guid>
		<description>While I have no doubt there is a lot of money being made pushing plastic surgery services, I seriously doubt the advertising creates the demand. The demand is in our culture, perhaps in our genes -- wanting to look good. What "good" is gets skewed in various ways, but I think once someone is actually reading a plastic surgery ad, they've already made the decision.

Meanwhile we have an industry many many times bigger that is doing much worse for us -- all of us -- in terms of health and beauty and body consciousness, and that is the fast-food industry. When you add up all the crap people put into their bodies -- sodas, drive-through grease, potato chips, energy drinks, processed meats more like plastic than food -- it's small wonder that our country is so obese and unhealthy.

And it's not easy to eat well. For one thing, you can't eat much but garbage if you're working a zillion hours just to get by.

The beauty industry is trivial compared to &lt;a href="http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2007/fit.nation/obesity.map/" rel="nofollow"&gt;what we're doing to ourselves through our food&lt;/a&gt;. And yet few people talk about it. In fact, talk about obesity, especially in children, often gets push-back from what could only be called fat advocates.

Some people have medical issues, but most Americans are creating medical issues for themselves. I couldn't care less about botox ads in magazines, but I find myself getting angry every time I see an obese kid in a commercial.

/semi-off-topic rant</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>While I have no doubt there is a lot of money being made pushing plastic surgery services, I seriously doubt the advertising creates the demand. The demand is in our culture, perhaps in our genes &#8212; wanting to look good. What &#8220;good&#8221; is gets skewed in various ways, but I think once someone is actually reading a plastic surgery ad, they&#8217;ve already made the decision.</p>
<p>Meanwhile we have an industry many many times bigger that is doing much worse for us &#8212; all of us &#8212; in terms of health and beauty and body consciousness, and that is the fast-food industry. When you add up all the crap people put into their bodies &#8212; sodas, drive-through grease, potato chips, energy drinks, processed meats more like plastic than food &#8212; it&#8217;s small wonder that our country is so obese and unhealthy.</p>
<p>And it&#8217;s not easy to eat well. For one thing, you can&#8217;t eat much but garbage if you&#8217;re working a zillion hours just to get by.</p>
<p>The beauty industry is trivial compared to <a href="http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2007/fit.nation/obesity.map/" rel="nofollow">what we&#8217;re doing to ourselves through our food</a>. And yet few people talk about it. In fact, talk about obesity, especially in children, often gets push-back from what could only be called fat advocates.</p>
<p>Some people have medical issues, but most Americans are creating medical issues for themselves. I couldn&#8217;t care less about botox ads in magazines, but I find myself getting angry every time I see an obese kid in a commercial.</p>
<p>/semi-off-topic rant</p>
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		<title>By: Debra</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/08/02/cosmetic-surgery-and-the-co-opting-of-feminist-language-an-excellent-new-ms-article/#comment-93732</link>
		<dc:creator>Debra</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Aug 2007 02:10:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/08/02/cosmetic-surgery-and-the-co-opting-of-feminist-language-an-excellent-new-ms-article/#comment-93732</guid>
		<description>The fact that there aren't any "multinational tattoo conglomerates" doesn't mean that the act of having oneself tattooed hasn't flipped 180 degrees from being something only people on the rebellious fringe of society did to being something that many people do in the mainstream, something that is now far more socially acceptable than it once was--much like men getting an ear pierced.

I too have a problem with the definition of "feminism" that says that anything a woman or girl chooses to do is "feminist" as long as it appears to be something she is freely "choosing." In which drastically altering her body to conform to society's standards of beauty is fine so long as it's what she "chooses" to do. In which staying at home with her children while her husband goes to work is fine so long as she "chooses" to do so. I think in many cases, not as much "choice" is really going into the "choosing" as these individuals think. There is a certain pressure to conform to expectations of women in this society, and some make the decision that conforming is easier than creating or dealing with alternatives. This, they call "choice." But I'm not so sure it really is.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The fact that there aren&#8217;t any &#8220;multinational tattoo conglomerates&#8221; doesn&#8217;t mean that the act of having oneself tattooed hasn&#8217;t flipped 180 degrees from being something only people on the rebellious fringe of society did to being something that many people do in the mainstream, something that is now far more socially acceptable than it once was&#8211;much like men getting an ear pierced.</p>
<p>I too have a problem with the definition of &#8220;feminism&#8221; that says that anything a woman or girl chooses to do is &#8220;feminist&#8221; as long as it appears to be something she is freely &#8220;choosing.&#8221; In which drastically altering her body to conform to society&#8217;s standards of beauty is fine so long as it&#8217;s what she &#8220;chooses&#8221; to do. In which staying at home with her children while her husband goes to work is fine so long as she &#8220;chooses&#8221; to do so. I think in many cases, not as much &#8220;choice&#8221; is really going into the &#8220;choosing&#8221; as these individuals think. There is a certain pressure to conform to expectations of women in this society, and some make the decision that conforming is easier than creating or dealing with alternatives. This, they call &#8220;choice.&#8221; But I&#8217;m not so sure it really is.</p>
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		<title>By: mythago</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/08/02/cosmetic-surgery-and-the-co-opting-of-feminist-language-an-excellent-new-ms-article/#comment-92590</link>
		<dc:creator>mythago</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 05 Aug 2007 06:42:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/08/02/cosmetic-surgery-and-the-co-opting-of-feminist-language-an-excellent-new-ms-article/#comment-92590</guid>
		<description>&lt;I&gt;Of course, as with rock music and every other rebellion, it was quickly co-opted by the very forces it was designed to oppose.&lt;/I&gt;

Which would explain the giant multinational tattoo conglomerates. *eyeroll*

Don't continually mistake of assuming that your motivations are everyone's.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Of course, as with rock music and every other rebellion, it was quickly co-opted by the very forces it was designed to oppose.</i></p>
<p>Which would explain the giant multinational tattoo conglomerates. *eyeroll*</p>
<p>Don&#8217;t continually mistake of assuming that your motivations are everyone&#8217;s.</p>
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		<title>By: FuntFuntFunt</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/08/02/cosmetic-surgery-and-the-co-opting-of-feminist-language-an-excellent-new-ms-article/#comment-92543</link>
		<dc:creator>FuntFuntFunt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 05 Aug 2007 04:10:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/08/02/cosmetic-surgery-and-the-co-opting-of-feminist-language-an-excellent-new-ms-article/#comment-92543</guid>
		<description>I'm just trying to wrap my head around these 'forces' that sent out the message that having a body without pictures of anchors and hearts that read 'mother' was the height of conformity.  ; )</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m just trying to wrap my head around these &#8216;forces&#8217; that sent out the message that having a body without pictures of anchors and hearts that read &#8216;mother&#8217; was the height of conformity.  ; )</p>
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		<title>By: Hugo Schwyzer</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/08/02/cosmetic-surgery-and-the-co-opting-of-feminist-language-an-excellent-new-ms-article/#comment-92495</link>
		<dc:creator>Hugo Schwyzer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 05 Aug 2007 00:48:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/08/02/cosmetic-surgery-and-the-co-opting-of-feminist-language-an-excellent-new-ms-article/#comment-92495</guid>
		<description>&lt;em&gt;So it’s okay to mutilate yourself as long as you’re being contrary rather than people pleasing?&lt;/em&gt;

I think the way I'd put it, Bill, is that tattoing/piercing &lt;em&gt;began&lt;/em&gt; as a subculture that explicitly rejected normative beauty standards.  It was intended to be genuinely liberatory; rather than trying to live up to the dictates of Big Fashion, Big Pharma, and the cosmetic surgery industry, folks who engaged in body modification were creating their own independent aesthetic. It wasn't about being contrary as much as it was about a refusal to be compliant.

Of course, as with rock music and every other rebellion, it was quickly co-opted by the very forces it was designed to oppose.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><em>So it’s okay to mutilate yourself as long as you’re being contrary rather than people pleasing?</em></p>
<p>I think the way I&#8217;d put it, Bill, is that tattoing/piercing <em>began</em> as a subculture that explicitly rejected normative beauty standards.  It was intended to be genuinely liberatory; rather than trying to live up to the dictates of Big Fashion, Big Pharma, and the cosmetic surgery industry, folks who engaged in body modification were creating their own independent aesthetic. It wasn&#8217;t about being contrary as much as it was about a refusal to be compliant.</p>
<p>Of course, as with rock music and every other rebellion, it was quickly co-opted by the very forces it was designed to oppose.</p>
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		<title>By: FuntFuntFunt</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/08/02/cosmetic-surgery-and-the-co-opting-of-feminist-language-an-excellent-new-ms-article/#comment-92445</link>
		<dc:creator>FuntFuntFunt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 04 Aug 2007 23:04:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/08/02/cosmetic-surgery-and-the-co-opting-of-feminist-language-an-excellent-new-ms-article/#comment-92445</guid>
		<description>So it's okay to mutilate yourself as long as you're being contrary rather than people pleasing? 

I'm fairly certain you don't mean that but that's certainly what that last remark sounded like. 

I happen to consider it all mutilation but hey that's just me........and my tribe.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So it&#8217;s okay to mutilate yourself as long as you&#8217;re being contrary rather than people pleasing? </p>
<p>I&#8217;m fairly certain you don&#8217;t mean that but that&#8217;s certainly what that last remark sounded like. </p>
<p>I happen to consider it all mutilation but hey that&#8217;s just me&#8230;&#8230;..and my tribe.</p>
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		<title>By: Hugo Schwyzer</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/08/02/cosmetic-surgery-and-the-co-opting-of-feminist-language-an-excellent-new-ms-article/#comment-92241</link>
		<dc:creator>Hugo Schwyzer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 04 Aug 2007 16:04:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/08/02/cosmetic-surgery-and-the-co-opting-of-feminist-language-an-excellent-new-ms-article/#comment-92241</guid>
		<description>Monsieur Funt, I haven't added a tatt or a piercing since Clinton was in office. That said, that form of body art (at least for me and for most others) is about an explicit rejection of society's standards for beauty.  Women who pierce their lips, for example, are invariably told "but you look so much prettier without it."  To which the feminist reply usually is, "Cripes, that's the point."</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Monsieur Funt, I haven&#8217;t added a tatt or a piercing since Clinton was in office. That said, that form of body art (at least for me and for most others) is about an explicit rejection of society&#8217;s standards for beauty.  Women who pierce their lips, for example, are invariably told &#8220;but you look so much prettier without it.&#8221;  To which the feminist reply usually is, &#8220;Cripes, that&#8217;s the point.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: mythago</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/08/02/cosmetic-surgery-and-the-co-opting-of-feminist-language-an-excellent-new-ms-article/#comment-91971</link>
		<dc:creator>mythago</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 04 Aug 2007 07:23:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/08/02/cosmetic-surgery-and-the-co-opting-of-feminist-language-an-excellent-new-ms-article/#comment-91971</guid>
		<description>&lt;I&gt;I accept the “cosmetic” versus “plastic” surgery distinction.&lt;/I&gt;

It's not quite as much of a distinction as you might think. If an A-cup is "abnormal" and "impairs functioning" (because a C-cup is valued in our society), it blurs the line between cosmetic and plastic surgery.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>I accept the “cosmetic” versus “plastic” surgery distinction.</i></p>
<p>It&#8217;s not quite as much of a distinction as you might think. If an A-cup is &#8220;abnormal&#8221; and &#8220;impairs functioning&#8221; (because a C-cup is valued in our society), it blurs the line between cosmetic and plastic surgery.</p>
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		<title>By: FuntFuntFunt</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/08/02/cosmetic-surgery-and-the-co-opting-of-feminist-language-an-excellent-new-ms-article/#comment-91965</link>
		<dc:creator>FuntFuntFunt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 04 Aug 2007 07:17:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/08/02/cosmetic-surgery-and-the-co-opting-of-feminist-language-an-excellent-new-ms-article/#comment-91965</guid>
		<description>So where does this leave you as far as tattoos and piercings?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So where does this leave you as far as tattoos and piercings?</p>
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