Comments on: Wages, the masculine malaise, and “waiting to be struck by certainty”: some thoughts on the new urban income report http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/08/06/wages-the-masculine-malaise-and-waiting-to-be-struck-by-certainty-some-thoughts-on-the-new-urban-income-report/ Fri, 05 Dec 2008 08:52:31 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.3.3 By: Only 10% of ‘Web’s Most Important People’ Are Women | Diary Blog of Elaine Vigneault http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/08/06/wages-the-masculine-malaise-and-waiting-to-be-struck-by-certainty-some-thoughts-on-the-new-urban-income-report/#comment-102971 Only 10% of ‘Web’s Most Important People’ Are Women | Diary Blog of Elaine Vigneault Thu, 23 Aug 2007 19:34:36 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/08/06/wages-the-masculine-malaise-and-waiting-to-be-struck-by-certainty-some-thoughts-on-the-new-urban-income-report/#comment-102971 [...] I responded to this news on Hugo Schwyzer’s blog (here is a slightly modified version): I think there are a number of ways to interpret this study and I highly doubt that it’s a truly accurate reflection of what’s going on. [...] […] I responded to this news on Hugo Schwyzer’s blog (here is a slightly modified version): I think there are a number of ways to interpret this study and I highly doubt that it’s a truly accurate reflection of what’s going on. […]

]]> By: K http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/08/06/wages-the-masculine-malaise-and-waiting-to-be-struck-by-certainty-some-thoughts-on-the-new-urban-income-report/#comment-95609 K Thu, 09 Aug 2007 22:33:01 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/08/06/wages-the-masculine-malaise-and-waiting-to-be-struck-by-certainty-some-thoughts-on-the-new-urban-income-report/#comment-95609 Minnow, I ran across the sketch and decided to submit it simply for on-topic ("male malaise") comic relief. No sane reader would see my link as an attempt to support my assertions (few of which I made in this thread anyway: I mostly asked questions and shared personal experience). In addition to being unrelated to my posts, it was also most definitely not a response to yours. For the record, regardless of the evils of television in general, the link contains no nudity or objectification of either gender. Minnow, I ran across the sketch and decided to submit it simply for on-topic (”male malaise”) comic relief. No sane reader would see my link as an attempt to support my assertions (few of which I made in this thread anyway: I mostly asked questions and shared personal experience).

In addition to being unrelated to my posts, it was also most definitely not a response to yours.

For the record, regardless of the evils of television in general, the link contains no nudity or objectification of either gender.

]]> By: ssminnow http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/08/06/wages-the-masculine-malaise-and-waiting-to-be-struck-by-certainty-some-thoughts-on-the-new-urban-income-report/#comment-95585 ssminnow Thu, 09 Aug 2007 20:37:07 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/08/06/wages-the-masculine-malaise-and-waiting-to-be-struck-by-certainty-some-thoughts-on-the-new-urban-income-report/#comment-95585 K what does this have to do with anything? It is a tv show. Part of the system that shows half naked women on tv and oppresses women. If you think for a second that some tv show is "how it is" you are sadly mistaken. Thats just what they want you to think, so that they can mold you to their society.Sorry if this was your "got em'" attempt of supporting your ideals. K
what does this have to do with anything? It is a tv show. Part of the system that shows half naked women on tv and oppresses women. If you think for a second that some tv show is “how it is” you are sadly mistaken. Thats just what they want you to think, so that they can mold you to their society.Sorry if this was your “got em’” attempt of supporting your ideals.

]]> By: K http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/08/06/wages-the-masculine-malaise-and-waiting-to-be-struck-by-certainty-some-thoughts-on-the-new-urban-income-report/#comment-95196 K Thu, 09 Aug 2007 05:26:01 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/08/06/wages-the-masculine-malaise-and-waiting-to-be-struck-by-certainty-some-thoughts-on-the-new-urban-income-report/#comment-95196 Fry & Laurie addressed this issue: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gRkYJaBV43I Fry & Laurie addressed this issue: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gRkYJaBV43I

]]> By: SSMinnow http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/08/06/wages-the-masculine-malaise-and-waiting-to-be-struck-by-certainty-some-thoughts-on-the-new-urban-income-report/#comment-95144 SSMinnow Thu, 09 Aug 2007 03:52:59 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/08/06/wages-the-masculine-malaise-and-waiting-to-be-struck-by-certainty-some-thoughts-on-the-new-urban-income-report/#comment-95144 I Hope nobody cares that I didn’t take the time to write this. I just jotted down some points. It’s a male driven world. We too are oppressed as men, but at the mercy of ourselves. we live in a system that gives us males priveledge. I also think that these boys who need Ritalin for having energy (which is natural) Is ridiculous and also conditioned. The parents and teachers should put this energy to good use. sports, reading, painting, home work, can all be great channel to divert this so called energy that is the result of a dysfunctional child. I say that this too is conditioned by our culture because money is involved, and we are constantly oppressed and told we need this and that. Who would have ever thought that I needed porn spam sent to my e-mail. I don’t even have to search for it? I wonder why-Money is involved, and when money is involved in America… Morals and standards go out the window. Not so - in fact, it’s quite the opposite (can you hear my gales of laughter?). Our culture is too hard on men and too easy on women, which again sends the message that men are second-class citizens compared to women, especially when it comes to education. Our culture is so conditioned that billboards are filled with half naked women, porn is available on your phone. Our culture Is also way too easy on men.You should do some research. I know it’s hard for you to believe, but this is a male driven world. Take a look at how priveledged men are and how under privileged women are and then get back to me. Think of how women are treated as objects. etc. I Hope nobody cares that I didn’t take the time to write this. I just jotted down some points.
It’s a male driven world. We too are oppressed as men, but at the mercy of ourselves. we live in a system that gives us males priveledge. I also think that these boys who need Ritalin for having energy (which is natural) Is ridiculous and also conditioned. The parents and teachers should put this energy to good use. sports, reading, painting, home work, can all be great channel to divert this so called energy that is the result of a dysfunctional child. I say that this too is conditioned by our culture because money is involved, and we are constantly oppressed and told we need this and that. Who would have ever thought that I needed porn spam sent to my e-mail. I don’t even have to search for it? I wonder why-Money is involved, and when money is involved in America… Morals and standards go out the window.

Not so - in fact, it’s quite the opposite (can you hear my gales of laughter?). Our culture is too hard on men and too easy on women, which again sends the message that men are second-class citizens compared to women, especially when it comes to education.
Our culture is so conditioned that billboards are filled with half naked women, porn is available on your phone. Our culture Is also way too easy on men.You should do some research. I know it’s hard for you to believe, but this is a male driven world. Take a look at how priveledged men are and how under privileged women are and then get back to me. Think of how women are treated as objects. etc.

]]> By: Ahunt http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/08/06/wages-the-masculine-malaise-and-waiting-to-be-struck-by-certainty-some-thoughts-on-the-new-urban-income-report/#comment-95055 Ahunt Thu, 09 Aug 2007 00:35:42 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/08/06/wages-the-masculine-malaise-and-waiting-to-be-struck-by-certainty-some-thoughts-on-the-new-urban-income-report/#comment-95055 Leonard Sax has indeed been called on his serious misuse of science, and I am profoundly disturbed by his ongoing refusal to acknowledge the tremendous behaviorial response variations <i>within</i> the genders. But folks here apparently recognize that if there is a developing pathology of masculine malaise, there are any number of factors that would figure in. The decline in high wage blue collar manufacturing jobs, and until recently, the higher standards for military recruitment, and the fact the days of "20 and out" in any field are over...all serve to narrow the traditional, family forming career options for men...and might help explain the broad demographics of "failure to launch." Leonard Sax has indeed been called on his serious misuse of science, and I am profoundly disturbed by his ongoing refusal to acknowledge the tremendous behaviorial response variations within the genders.

But folks here apparently recognize that if there is a developing pathology of masculine malaise, there are any number of factors that would figure in.

The decline in high wage blue collar manufacturing jobs, and until recently, the higher standards for military recruitment, and the fact the days of “20 and out” in any field are over…all serve to narrow the traditional, family forming career options for men…and might help explain the broad demographics of “failure to launch.”

]]> By: NBarnes http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/08/06/wages-the-masculine-malaise-and-waiting-to-be-struck-by-certainty-some-thoughts-on-the-new-urban-income-report/#comment-95004 NBarnes Wed, 08 Aug 2007 22:44:36 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/08/06/wages-the-masculine-malaise-and-waiting-to-be-struck-by-certainty-some-thoughts-on-the-new-urban-income-report/#comment-95004 Sax? That name sounds familiar. Oh, yes, <a href="http://ezraklein.typepad.com/blog/2006/10/experiments_in_.html" rel="nofollow"><i>that</i> Dr. Sax</a>. In general, I consider myself a very good example of an 'unmotivated boy', a 'listless lad', however you care to describe the phenomenon. It causes a lot of trouble for me in my life and is something that I've made struggling with and beating one of the highest priorities in my life. That said, I doubt that Dr. Sax's nouveau gender essentialism holds any answers for me. Sax? That name sounds familiar.

Oh, yes, that Dr. Sax.

In general, I consider myself a very good example of an ‘unmotivated boy’, a ‘listless lad’, however you care to describe the phenomenon. It causes a lot of trouble for me in my life and is something that I’ve made struggling with and beating one of the highest priorities in my life.

That said, I doubt that Dr. Sax’s nouveau gender essentialism holds any answers for me.

]]> By: Elaine Vigneault http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/08/06/wages-the-masculine-malaise-and-waiting-to-be-struck-by-certainty-some-thoughts-on-the-new-urban-income-report/#comment-94920 Elaine Vigneault Wed, 08 Aug 2007 19:26:04 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/08/06/wages-the-masculine-malaise-and-waiting-to-be-struck-by-certainty-some-thoughts-on-the-new-urban-income-report/#comment-94920 Let me just clear something up straightaway here: a person's income is not a reflection of that person's worth. I think there are a number of ways to interpret this study and I highly doubt that it's a truly accurate reflection of what's going on. For example, do you think it included income earners who work in non-traditional professions, such as blogging and gambling? Does it include the young men who are sole proprietors of their own companies? No, it doesn't even include part-timers, only full-time employees, a dying breed. Likewise, do you think they compared net worths? Or how about home ownership? Lastly, look at the Bay Area and Seattle, the mecca of technology development. How are the wage comparisons there? I think a better conclusion from this report is that (some) women are catching up in the old game while (some) men are moving ahead into a new game. And really, what's new? Let me just clear something up straightaway here: a person’s income is not a reflection of that person’s worth.

I think there are a number of ways to interpret this study and I highly doubt that it’s a truly accurate reflection of what’s going on.

For example, do you think it included income earners who work in non-traditional professions, such as blogging and gambling? Does it include the young men who are sole proprietors of their own companies? No, it doesn’t even include part-timers, only full-time employees, a dying breed.

Likewise, do you think they compared net worths? Or how about home ownership?

Lastly, look at the Bay Area and Seattle, the mecca of technology development. How are the wage comparisons there?

I think a better conclusion from this report is that (some) women are catching up in the old game while (some) men are moving ahead into a new game. And really, what’s new?

]]> By: Hugo Schwyzer http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/08/06/wages-the-masculine-malaise-and-waiting-to-be-struck-by-certainty-some-thoughts-on-the-new-urban-income-report/#comment-94902 Hugo Schwyzer Wed, 08 Aug 2007 18:41:24 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/08/06/wages-the-masculine-malaise-and-waiting-to-be-struck-by-certainty-some-thoughts-on-the-new-urban-income-report/#comment-94902 Colonel, I'm waiting for the Sax book to come in the mail myself... and look forward to responding. Colonel, I’m waiting for the Sax book to come in the mail myself… and look forward to responding.

]]> By: Col Steve http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/08/06/wages-the-masculine-malaise-and-waiting-to-be-struck-by-certainty-some-thoughts-on-the-new-urban-income-report/#comment-94821 Col Steve Wed, 08 Aug 2007 15:05:51 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/08/06/wages-the-masculine-malaise-and-waiting-to-be-struck-by-certainty-some-thoughts-on-the-new-urban-income-report/#comment-94821 To quote my father (and the title of a book proposal I’ve put out), too many young men are “waiting to be struck by certainty.. The "failure to launch" syndrome? I was thinking that more young men living in their parents' homes might be a factor. Statistics do show "According to the Census Bureau, fully one-third of young men ages 22 to 34 are still living at home with their parents -- a roughly 100 percent increase in the past 20 years. No such change has occurred with regard to young women" (Washington Post, Mar 06; by Leonard Sax, a family physician and psychologist in Montgomery County, is the author of "Boys Adrift: What's Really Behind the Growing Epidemic of Unmotivated Boys) Of course, according to Sax, this trend cuts across all demographics (race; location; income level) and the data done by Beveridge clearly shows a racial difference (at least in NYC). Also, the direction of effect, assuming the factor is significant at all, could go either way (young men's wages falling/remaining constant so their relative housing cost increases hence stay at home or they stay at home (relatively) more so they don't need/pursue higher wages). Sax also cites work done by folks here http://www.boysproject.net/statistics.html To quote my father (and the title of a book proposal I’ve put out), too many young men are “waiting to be struck by certainty..

The “failure to launch” syndrome? I was thinking that more young men living in their parents’ homes might be a factor. Statistics do show

“According to the Census Bureau, fully one-third of young men ages 22 to 34 are still living at home with their parents — a roughly 100 percent increase in the past 20 years. No such change has occurred with regard to young women” (Washington Post, Mar 06; by Leonard Sax, a family physician and psychologist in Montgomery County, is the author of “Boys Adrift: What’s Really Behind the Growing Epidemic of Unmotivated Boys)

Of course, according to Sax, this trend cuts across all demographics (race; location; income level) and the data done by Beveridge clearly shows a racial difference (at least in NYC). Also, the direction of effect, assuming the factor is significant at all, could go either way (young men’s wages falling/remaining constant so their relative housing cost increases hence stay at home or they stay at home (relatively) more so they don’t need/pursue higher wages).

Sax also cites work done by folks here

http://www.boysproject.net/statistics.html

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