Actually, I’m an anarchist. No, I don’t think that any of the States you mentioned have any inherent rights. I do think human beings and communities have a right to not be terrorized. I think it’s all well and good if the Isreali State its citizen’s rights in that regard, but I do not think it is justifiable for a State to kill people in its own defense. A state is a system of organisation, and has little or no intrinsic value compared to that of a human life.

Now…Lanyrus said:

“While I think that Isreali individuals (and the Jewish people) have a right to security, I can’t accept that Nation-States have rights in the same sense.”

If this is the case, then the United States, France China, ets. are all nation states - do they not have a right to security? Do nation states have to accept peopel blowing things up in teh middle of their cities during rush our because well, nation states have no right to security as peopel do? In the end, nation states are a collection of people into a political entity.

It is my understanding that historically, one of the main roles of the modern, Western nation-state is defense of its constituents from foreign attack (as well as basic law enforcement so that people don’t settle disputes by maiming and killing each other). If the state can’t defend itself it will soon cease to exist.

Or, do only Jewish nation-states have no right to security in the same sense as Jewish individuals while (for example) French individuals AND the French nation-state have full rights to security on all levels.

Your analysis leads to a situation where dispossessing a group from their home for a long enough time makes it immoral for them to go back. How long is that? Eg, How long would Israel have to exile non Jewish Arabs from their land for, before it would be imperialism for them to go back?

It was never Imperialism for the Jews to go back to Isreal. It was Imperialism for them to go back as conquerors. It’s Imperialism to build a wall that separates people from their sources of water and their crops.

But I must wonder, if you’d asked a Jewish person in Europe in 1880 (or even 1930) where there home was, how many would actually say “Isreal”? Even the Zionists of the late 19th Century were considering establishing a Jewish state in Guatemala (which would’ve been much more clearly Imperialism). Zionism has its roots as a secular ideology, focused on creating a situation where Jews have political rights and basic safety (a laudable mission in many respects, but the ends cannot justify the means) - it was not, as you imagine, a mission of bringing Jews “home”.

It’s also worth pointing out that it’s not just “non-Jewish Arabs” who have been displaced by Isreal.

Yup, the modern Jewish state is not “Judaism.” On the other hand, the modern Fatah and the modern Hamas are not the 1920s-1950s “Palestinians” either.

I’m not sure how this is a point of disagreement with me. I definitely don’t think that Fatah or Hamas are doing a very good job of representing the interests of ordinary Palestinians and I think it definitely is reasonable to question the legitimacy of the Palestinian Authority. I’m not in any way a supporter of that Organization.

Perhaps I didn’t make myself clear enough: I’m for the basic rights of ordinary people in the region (Jews of European origin included), and firmly against the war-mongering institutions that perpetuate the violence there. These include Hamas and the Isreali state.

(Sadly, I’m going to sit this debate out, because the Israeli-Palestinian horse is so dead for me, it is quite seriously an ex-horse. Listening to this subject being argued in my schools, my social circles, the national media, etc. is akin to brainwashing; one needs the occasional break from the dual-sided onslaught of self-righteous pain.)

I agree that a blanket boycott of Israel may be wrong. A significant majority of my extended family are (Jewish) Israelis. I object though to a position which basically says: “both sides have done wrong” and “we must understand the pain of the Israeli Jews and the Palestinians” which results in a tolerance of the status quo.

Statistics like I just saw of: 952 Palestinian Children killed vs. 118 Israeli children killed since a date in 2000 - show how disproportionate the violence results in directly affecting the lives of Palestinians.

Many of us Jews fear another Holocaust in Israel if a Palestinian State is formed. Israel is also a nuclear power which clearly would likely use its most lethal weapons if its survival were ever a serious issue.

Palestinians are not living in a “stalemate” where their status remains the same. Expropriations of land for the Wall - separating Palestinians - from Israelis as well as the expansions and creations of new Settlements results in less and less land belonging to Palestinians over time.

I couldn’t imagine how you in Pasadena could continue living year-in-and year-out - if to drive to Hollywood or Downtown LA or Anaheim meant waiting hours at checkpoints where you possibly might not get through including IF you needed medical care or had sick or dying relatives or a funeral to attend.

I know that you Do Not - support many of the horrific things that go on! One need not be “leftist” to recognize that the U.S. Media and Political Establishment - even unrelated to 9/11 - Anti-Arab hysteria - tends to Strongly Favor positions strongly in support of Israeli policy and strongly against the Palestinians.

Certainly the Palestinians have been poorly treated by the leadership of Arab countries such as Jordan, Syria and Egypt. This however does not justify Israel’s continued oppression of Palestinians.

Both the Israelis and the US Government face new problems with the Hamas takeover of Gaza and the Fatah takeover of the West Bank.

The Israeli and U.S. Governments both must face the facts that IF we want to live in a world of “Moderate Islam” - and Peace (with a Capital “P”) we need to learn to live and support those in the Middle East who seek a just Peace for the Palestinians as well as supporting moderate forces elsewhere.

History tells me at least that the U.S. - creates - our “boogymen” and simplistic - support of dictators who support “our interests” - such as Manuel Noriega in Panama and Saddam Hussein - only to turn on them when they refuse to continue as we want them to be.

Hugo - I know you are not “the enemy” - and are indeed very good in most of what you believe in. Understanding and hearing Jewish friends and allies is important. It is also important to see and hear other voices and confronting one’s allies when what they believe in isn’t the whole picture.

Thanks!

Your analysis leads to a situation where dispossessing a group from their home for a long enough time makes it immoral for them to go back. How long is that? Eg, How long would Israel have to exile non Jewish Arabs from their land for, before it would be imperialism for them to go back?

Yup, the modern Jewish state is not “Judaism.” On the other hand, the modern Fatah and the modern Hamas are not the 1920s-1950s “Palestinians” either. Maybe if they were, you could make a claim that their support for Hitler undermines their rejection of Jewish settlement/self-rule in the region…

I share with you a concern for a just peace, and do believe that the USA has not always been helpful in this regard. I’m hardly a card-carrying member of AIPAC. It is possible to point out that the Israeli government has made some serious miscalculations and is involved in the systemic mistreatment of some Palestinians without calling for a blanket boycott of Israel or suggesting that the Zionist project is imperialistic at its core.

Palestinians are people who have had their land occupied for 40 years as well as having lost land 59 years ago. They are not saints of course but most are peaceful and “sensible”. Suicide bombers and others who kill come out of a desperation, fear and anger. It would be nice of a Gandhi/MLK inspired non-violent residence could takeover and succeed, but unfortunately where peaceful efforts are undertaken, they get limited recognition.

I would urge you and others concerned to look at reading on areas such as:
** http://www.combatantsforpeace.org - “We are a group of Israeli and Palestinian individuals who were actively involved in the cycle of violence in our area. The Israelis served as combat soldiers in the Israel Defense Forces and the Palestinians were involved in acts of violence in the name of Palestinian liberation.”
** http://www.jewishvoiceforpeace.org - A Jewish Voice for Peace
** http://blog.mideastanalysis.org/ or http://www.muzzlewatch.org/ - blogs out of the leadership of A Jewish Voice for Peace

or if you want thoughtful Palestinian related perspectives:

** http://www.ramikhouri.com/ - Rami Khouri’s blog or
** http://palestinejournal.blogspot.com/ - a medical providers’ blog

Israeli settlements on the West Bank continue to expand and Gaza is both the site of starvation issues and an explosive powder keg.

The U.S. has been a Strong Ally of continued conflict, rather than a mediator - who will listen and help build a lasting peace. Israel has great “strategic” importance which will lesson as the oil in the Middle East gets used up in the coming decades.

Israelis are paying a huge price by not taking great risks in building a just peace. It is scary to open oneself up as Israel must do. The status quo - where close to half the young Israelis want to leave their country and see no viable future for the continuation of life as it is now is also very troubling.

It will take a lot of work to build a just peace! We need to do what we can to help. Defending Israel isn’t going to build peace. I hope that when you are in Israel you will seek out - dissent and dissenters. There are Jewish refuseniks and others who oppose Government policy.

Good Luck!