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	<title>Comments on: Urinal chat: UPDATED</title>
	<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/08/28/1927/</link>
	<description></description>
	<pubDate>Thu, 08 Jan 2009 03:25:52 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Vincent Bonner</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/08/28/1927/#comment-324085</link>
		<dc:creator>Vincent Bonner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 27 Apr 2008 21:00:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/08/28/1927/#comment-324085</guid>
		<description>Being "polite" you were not.

Where I come from, you were being antagonistic with your faux friendliness.  

You obviously would not have pulled the same kind of behavior if you were not in your comfy tenured-PCC environment.  This is an embarassing post and paints you in a snooty, "my shit don't smell" kind of light...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Being &#8220;polite&#8221; you were not.</p>
<p>Where I come from, you were being antagonistic with your faux friendliness.  </p>
<p>You obviously would not have pulled the same kind of behavior if you were not in your comfy tenured-PCC environment.  This is an embarassing post and paints you in a snooty, &#8220;my shit don&#8217;t smell&#8221; kind of light&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Beste</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/08/28/1927/#comment-107730</link>
		<dc:creator>Beste</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 02 Sep 2007 05:35:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/08/28/1927/#comment-107730</guid>
		<description>"A bit stunned (and still busy with the task at — or in - hand) I slipped into the standard WASPy mode of cheerful, teasing, aggression: “Why, Manuel, are you saying we aren’t friends?” I threw in a wink" 

Hugo,

Sometimes winking can be considered patronizing or rude.  Remember it's body language and got to ask youself what message did you want to convey to Manuel when you winked.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;A bit stunned (and still busy with the task at — or in - hand) I slipped into the standard WASPy mode of cheerful, teasing, aggression: “Why, Manuel, are you saying we aren’t friends?” I threw in a wink&#8221; </p>
<p>Hugo,</p>
<p>Sometimes winking can be considered patronizing or rude.  Remember it&#8217;s body language and got to ask youself what message did you want to convey to Manuel when you winked.</p>
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		<title>By: Hugo Schwyzer</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/08/28/1927/#comment-106535</link>
		<dc:creator>Hugo Schwyzer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Aug 2007 17:16:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/08/28/1927/#comment-106535</guid>
		<description>I've heard him chat at the urinal with others, labyrus.

I'm a great urinal talker myself.  Utterly shameless.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve heard him chat at the urinal with others, labyrus.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m a great urinal talker myself.  Utterly shameless.</p>
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		<title>By: labyrus</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/08/28/1927/#comment-106506</link>
		<dc:creator>labyrus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Aug 2007 15:45:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/08/28/1927/#comment-106506</guid>
		<description>I think initiating coversation while someone is at a urinal is just kind of rude (unless you're at a bar or sports game). I know not everyone adheres to the same rules of "urinal ettiquette" but I've always found it to be kind of annoying. Maybe that's what set him off?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think initiating coversation while someone is at a urinal is just kind of rude (unless you&#8217;re at a bar or sports game). I know not everyone adheres to the same rules of &#8220;urinal ettiquette&#8221; but I&#8217;ve always found it to be kind of annoying. Maybe that&#8217;s what set him off?</p>
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		<title>By: Hugo Schwyzer</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/08/28/1927/#comment-106029</link>
		<dc:creator>Hugo Schwyzer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Aug 2007 20:14:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/08/28/1927/#comment-106029</guid>
		<description>Yeah, that's it Mr. Bad, I was hitting on my sixty-something colleague.  Just call me Senator Craig.

Remember,  folks, Men's Rights Advocates invariably accuse feminist men of 

1. being gay

2.  being filled with self-loathing

3.  using feminism as a pretense to score with women.

If you're lucky enough, you'll get accused of all three simultaneously!

;-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yeah, that&#8217;s it Mr. Bad, I was hitting on my sixty-something colleague.  Just call me Senator Craig.</p>
<p>Remember,  folks, Men&#8217;s Rights Advocates invariably accuse feminist men of </p>
<p>1. being gay</p>
<p>2.  being filled with self-loathing</p>
<p>3.  using feminism as a pretense to score with women.</p>
<p>If you&#8217;re lucky enough, you&#8217;ll get accused of all three simultaneously!</p>
<p>;-)</p>
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		<title>By: MrBad</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/08/28/1927/#comment-106025</link>
		<dc:creator>MrBad</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Aug 2007 20:05:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/08/28/1927/#comment-106025</guid>
		<description>Oh, and Hugo: I know you're censoring my posts (you done so for half a dozen now), by you need to hear this nonetheless:  There's absolutely *nothing* "WASPY* about hitting on other men in the bathroom.  In fact, WASP men are profoundly respectful and thus avoid invading other people's spaces.  You seem to be confusing lefty California "not-quite-'out'" whiteboy behavior with WASP men, and I'm here to tell you, it ain't so.  Most of us aren't nearly as confused about our sexuality as you are.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh, and Hugo: I know you&#8217;re censoring my posts (you done so for half a dozen now), by you need to hear this nonetheless:  There&#8217;s absolutely *nothing* &#8220;WASPY* about hitting on other men in the bathroom.  In fact, WASP men are profoundly respectful and thus avoid invading other people&#8217;s spaces.  You seem to be confusing lefty California &#8220;not-quite-&#8217;out&#8217;&#8221; whiteboy behavior with WASP men, and I&#8217;m here to tell you, it ain&#8217;t so.  Most of us aren&#8217;t nearly as confused about our sexuality as you are.</p>
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		<title>By: Hugo Schwyzer</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/08/28/1927/#comment-105907</link>
		<dc:creator>Hugo Schwyzer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Aug 2007 14:52:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/08/28/1927/#comment-105907</guid>
		<description>Thank you, Gary, amen.  Brother.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you, Gary, amen.  Brother.</p>
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		<title>By: Gary</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/08/28/1927/#comment-105906</link>
		<dc:creator>Gary</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Aug 2007 14:50:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/08/28/1927/#comment-105906</guid>
		<description>In Hugo's defense, he has the right to refer to male friends and acquaintances as "my brother," "brother man," or even "brother" (yes, I know he doesn't use the last term unmodified).  I am not willing to recognize any cultural group's monopoly over words or expressions in English.  Nor would I presume to call anyone insincere or "appropriating" because he happens to use these words.  So much depends on the context, and I agree with "z" in that respect.

Just yesterday, a good male friend referred to me as "brother" and even added, "I love you, man."  It was genuine, sincere, and touching.  My friend wasn't trying to be someone he is not.  He was merely expressing affection.

On the other hand, people are brought up in different families in different ways.  Although I am of European ancestry, I am not a WASP, so I don't know WASP codes of conduct, except to the limited extent that I have been able to infer bits and pieces of those codes from interacting with a variety of people.  What is familar and comfortable to me might seem very strange and uncomfortable to Hugo or any other person who did not grow up in the same kind of environment.  In my opinion, the diversity and variety are enriching if we allow them to be.  Really, who is to say what is right in these situations?  I don't think there is any one-size-fits-all answer.

I can appreciate the difficulty of interacting with work colleagues who seem disagreeable to us.  Such interactions can be uncomfortable and unpleasant.  At my office, there are two guys I dislike, and they don't have much use for me.  I am willing to take responsibility for my faults in creating a disagreeable situation.  Despite a lot of effort, though, I have not yet found a way to fix it.  Nevertheless, when I encounter either of these guys, I'll greet them by their first names.  I'll say something like, "Good morning, Matt," or "Have a good weekend, Tim."  That's despite the fact that I would probably very eagerly put the gloves on to settle our differences with either of them.  No doubt, Matt and Tim would probably love to have a chance to pound on me as well!

My greetings to those two men are civil, but not overly friendly.  I don't offer a lot of words, I don't pretend to be friends with them, and I don't try to appear interested in many details of their lives because I really am not.  I give them a very basic respect as human beings but, honestly, that's as far as it goes.  I'm not terribly happy about that, but I don't lose sleep over it.

That works for me.  I would feel very odd greeting those guys with a display of friendliness like Hugo described.  That would not fit me well.  Yet, I can see how it could work for Hugo since he is conforming his conduct to a somewhat different approach to dealing with people.

Is Hugo wrong?  No, that is his way of communicating.  Am I wrong?  I don't think so.  We simply have different ways of interacting.  I think we can learn a lot from discussing the diversity of communications styles--and being more tolerant of others whose practices differ from our own.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In Hugo&#8217;s defense, he has the right to refer to male friends and acquaintances as &#8220;my brother,&#8221; &#8220;brother man,&#8221; or even &#8220;brother&#8221; (yes, I know he doesn&#8217;t use the last term unmodified).  I am not willing to recognize any cultural group&#8217;s monopoly over words or expressions in English.  Nor would I presume to call anyone insincere or &#8220;appropriating&#8221; because he happens to use these words.  So much depends on the context, and I agree with &#8220;z&#8221; in that respect.</p>
<p>Just yesterday, a good male friend referred to me as &#8220;brother&#8221; and even added, &#8220;I love you, man.&#8221;  It was genuine, sincere, and touching.  My friend wasn&#8217;t trying to be someone he is not.  He was merely expressing affection.</p>
<p>On the other hand, people are brought up in different families in different ways.  Although I am of European ancestry, I am not a WASP, so I don&#8217;t know WASP codes of conduct, except to the limited extent that I have been able to infer bits and pieces of those codes from interacting with a variety of people.  What is familar and comfortable to me might seem very strange and uncomfortable to Hugo or any other person who did not grow up in the same kind of environment.  In my opinion, the diversity and variety are enriching if we allow them to be.  Really, who is to say what is right in these situations?  I don&#8217;t think there is any one-size-fits-all answer.</p>
<p>I can appreciate the difficulty of interacting with work colleagues who seem disagreeable to us.  Such interactions can be uncomfortable and unpleasant.  At my office, there are two guys I dislike, and they don&#8217;t have much use for me.  I am willing to take responsibility for my faults in creating a disagreeable situation.  Despite a lot of effort, though, I have not yet found a way to fix it.  Nevertheless, when I encounter either of these guys, I&#8217;ll greet them by their first names.  I&#8217;ll say something like, &#8220;Good morning, Matt,&#8221; or &#8220;Have a good weekend, Tim.&#8221;  That&#8217;s despite the fact that I would probably very eagerly put the gloves on to settle our differences with either of them.  No doubt, Matt and Tim would probably love to have a chance to pound on me as well!</p>
<p>My greetings to those two men are civil, but not overly friendly.  I don&#8217;t offer a lot of words, I don&#8217;t pretend to be friends with them, and I don&#8217;t try to appear interested in many details of their lives because I really am not.  I give them a very basic respect as human beings but, honestly, that&#8217;s as far as it goes.  I&#8217;m not terribly happy about that, but I don&#8217;t lose sleep over it.</p>
<p>That works for me.  I would feel very odd greeting those guys with a display of friendliness like Hugo described.  That would not fit me well.  Yet, I can see how it could work for Hugo since he is conforming his conduct to a somewhat different approach to dealing with people.</p>
<p>Is Hugo wrong?  No, that is his way of communicating.  Am I wrong?  I don&#8217;t think so.  We simply have different ways of interacting.  I think we can learn a lot from discussing the diversity of communications styles&#8211;and being more tolerant of others whose practices differ from our own.</p>
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		<title>By: Stentor</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/08/28/1927/#comment-105889</link>
		<dc:creator>Stentor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Aug 2007 14:14:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/08/28/1927/#comment-105889</guid>
		<description>I'd cut Manuel more slack than some people commenting here. I think part of the problem may be not your choice of words but your choice of venue -- some of us really prefer to "do our business" in silence, and resent people who try to strike up a conversation (particularly meaningless small talk) at the urinal.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;d cut Manuel more slack than some people commenting here. I think part of the problem may be not your choice of words but your choice of venue &#8212; some of us really prefer to &#8220;do our business&#8221; in silence, and resent people who try to strike up a conversation (particularly meaningless small talk) at the urinal.</p>
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		<title>By: La Lubu</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/08/28/1927/#comment-105883</link>
		<dc:creator>La Lubu</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Aug 2007 13:55:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/08/28/1927/#comment-105883</guid>
		<description>Hugo, I assumed the "brother" came from your union membership; in my local, we frequently call ourselves "brother" and "sister", and are always formally addressed that way at union meetings and in the minutes of those meetings. I figured that guy was a fellow union member, so that's why you addressed him as such.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hugo, I assumed the &#8220;brother&#8221; came from your union membership; in my local, we frequently call ourselves &#8220;brother&#8221; and &#8220;sister&#8221;, and are always formally addressed that way at union meetings and in the minutes of those meetings. I figured that guy was a fellow union member, so that&#8217;s why you addressed him as such.</p>
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