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	<title>Comments on: More on staying home, parenthood, responsibility and trust</title>
	<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/08/28/more-on-staying-home-parenthood-responsibility-and-trust/</link>
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	<pubDate>Fri, 05 Dec 2008 12:11:51 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Candice</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/08/28/more-on-staying-home-parenthood-responsibility-and-trust/#comment-107498</link>
		<dc:creator>Candice</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 01 Sep 2007 15:55:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/08/28/more-on-staying-home-parenthood-responsibility-and-trust/#comment-107498</guid>
		<description>Well we are definitely in heated agreement on that one.  It just bugs me that as a society we have devalued the things that *are* uniquely feminine and relegated them to things that need to be controlled by men. or at least by a paternalistic thought process, even if that person is female. I am thinking mostly of childbirth and the lack of empowerment that females have when it comes to a very defining moment in their lives. not the only, but no matter who you talk to, childbirth is a big deal.  and the medical model is one of control, which only leads to more problems. but that is a whole different soap box.
but I completely agree that childrearing is not an exclusively female thing. and I don't believe that I said that.  but I still stand by the statement that both biologically and developmentally babies are designed to be with their mothers and that as a society, it needs to be supported.
thanks for the discussion :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well we are definitely in heated agreement on that one.  It just bugs me that as a society we have devalued the things that *are* uniquely feminine and relegated them to things that need to be controlled by men. or at least by a paternalistic thought process, even if that person is female. I am thinking mostly of childbirth and the lack of empowerment that females have when it comes to a very defining moment in their lives. not the only, but no matter who you talk to, childbirth is a big deal.  and the medical model is one of control, which only leads to more problems. but that is a whole different soap box.<br />
but I completely agree that childrearing is not an exclusively female thing. and I don&#8217;t believe that I said that.  but I still stand by the statement that both biologically and developmentally babies are designed to be with their mothers and that as a society, it needs to be supported.<br />
thanks for the discussion :)</p>
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		<title>By: mythago</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/08/28/more-on-staying-home-parenthood-responsibility-and-trust/#comment-107180</link>
		<dc:creator>mythago</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 31 Aug 2007 23:24:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/08/28/more-on-staying-home-parenthood-responsibility-and-trust/#comment-107180</guid>
		<description>&lt;I&gt;I am aware this does not sit well with some feminists, but I am not one to say that women need to be like men in order to succeed.&lt;/I&gt;

What doesn't sit well is defining material success and a paid career as "male" or childrearing (which goes well beyond breastfeeding) as "female".</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>I am aware this does not sit well with some feminists, but I am not one to say that women need to be like men in order to succeed.</i></p>
<p>What doesn&#8217;t sit well is defining material success and a paid career as &#8220;male&#8221; or childrearing (which goes well beyond breastfeeding) as &#8220;female&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: Candice</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/08/28/more-on-staying-home-parenthood-responsibility-and-trust/#comment-107081</link>
		<dc:creator>Candice</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 31 Aug 2007 18:12:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/08/28/more-on-staying-home-parenthood-responsibility-and-trust/#comment-107081</guid>
		<description>Well actually I think bringing babies to work is a marvelous idea :)  in fact, I have even seen some information touting its benefits.  the children actually fare really well and can come as long as they are not walking.  this is an office environment of course, but I would push for it if I had to work in an office setting.  and I still do think that its a biological mandate that babies be near their mothers. I am aware this does not sit well with some feminists, but I am not one to say that women need to be like men in order to succeed. we have different needs, one of which is taking care of small children.  can fathers do everything else?  absolutely.  I don't think women have the "corner" on infant care exclusively.  however, science has borne out over and over that breastmilk is the standard that babies should be fed.  and this society sorely lacks practical help for mothers and their children.  for all of their talk of being a "family friendly" society i think that is total crap personally.  If it was family friendly there would actually be laws governing family friendliness.
And just one more comment on the employee relationship issue.  It is not to say that my husband and I don't ever have issues, but unlike many of my counterparts who embrace patriarchy, we do not come at it from a power grabbing standpoint.  at least I hope we don't.  we try and strive for unity in our decisions together.  So though there is never conflict, no one holds the "trump" card in our relationship by fact that he is male.  I would like to think that I married with thoughtfulness and that I chose well and that even if we *did* divorce (our five year anniversary today in fact :) ) that he would behave like the kind human being I know him to be.  Which is why I picked him ;)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well actually I think bringing babies to work is a marvelous idea :)  in fact, I have even seen some information touting its benefits.  the children actually fare really well and can come as long as they are not walking.  this is an office environment of course, but I would push for it if I had to work in an office setting.  and I still do think that its a biological mandate that babies be near their mothers. I am aware this does not sit well with some feminists, but I am not one to say that women need to be like men in order to succeed. we have different needs, one of which is taking care of small children.  can fathers do everything else?  absolutely.  I don&#8217;t think women have the &#8220;corner&#8221; on infant care exclusively.  however, science has borne out over and over that breastmilk is the standard that babies should be fed.  and this society sorely lacks practical help for mothers and their children.  for all of their talk of being a &#8220;family friendly&#8221; society i think that is total crap personally.  If it was family friendly there would actually be laws governing family friendliness.<br />
And just one more comment on the employee relationship issue.  It is not to say that my husband and I don&#8217;t ever have issues, but unlike many of my counterparts who embrace patriarchy, we do not come at it from a power grabbing standpoint.  at least I hope we don&#8217;t.  we try and strive for unity in our decisions together.  So though there is never conflict, no one holds the &#8220;trump&#8221; card in our relationship by fact that he is male.  I would like to think that I married with thoughtfulness and that I chose well and that even if we *did* divorce (our five year anniversary today in fact :) ) that he would behave like the kind human being I know him to be.  Which is why I picked him ;)</p>
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		<title>By: Dianne</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/08/28/more-on-staying-home-parenthood-responsibility-and-trust/#comment-106408</link>
		<dc:creator>Dianne</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Aug 2007 09:10:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/08/28/more-on-staying-home-parenthood-responsibility-and-trust/#comment-106408</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;I know that if my husband and I were to divorce, because apparently I am his “employee” , there is a very significant chance that I would end up close to the poverty line, because that is where most single mom’s are.&lt;/i&gt;

This, I think, is critical. You knew what you were doing and were willing to take the risk. A 22 year old just out of college or an 18 year old just out of high school and feeling all romantic about taking care of her husband and babies may not have considered the issue as thoroughly. I continue to assert that any man or woman who wants to spend his or her time as an unpaid caretaker, whether for partner, children, parents, or any combination of the above, should know the risks before making any committments and that society has a responsibility to minimize those risks as far as is possible. Nor should we as a a society be encouraging people to take excessive risks, i.e. by glorifying SAHM. Beyond that, well, what business is it of mine or anyone else's what you want to do with your life? I'm glad things worked out for you.

Incidently, I breast fed my child exclusively for about 8 months and altogether for 3 years, although I started going back to work within 6 weeks of her birth. I'm not sure if I'm unusual that way or not, but anecdotally, returning to work doesn't mean ending breast feeding. At least not if you have a good breast pump and a mother in law who is willing to bring the baby to you at work periodically.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>I know that if my husband and I were to divorce, because apparently I am his “employee” , there is a very significant chance that I would end up close to the poverty line, because that is where most single mom’s are.</i></p>
<p>This, I think, is critical. You knew what you were doing and were willing to take the risk. A 22 year old just out of college or an 18 year old just out of high school and feeling all romantic about taking care of her husband and babies may not have considered the issue as thoroughly. I continue to assert that any man or woman who wants to spend his or her time as an unpaid caretaker, whether for partner, children, parents, or any combination of the above, should know the risks before making any committments and that society has a responsibility to minimize those risks as far as is possible. Nor should we as a a society be encouraging people to take excessive risks, i.e. by glorifying SAHM. Beyond that, well, what business is it of mine or anyone else&#8217;s what you want to do with your life? I&#8217;m glad things worked out for you.</p>
<p>Incidently, I breast fed my child exclusively for about 8 months and altogether for 3 years, although I started going back to work within 6 weeks of her birth. I&#8217;m not sure if I&#8217;m unusual that way or not, but anecdotally, returning to work doesn&#8217;t mean ending breast feeding. At least not if you have a good breast pump and a mother in law who is willing to bring the baby to you at work periodically.</p>
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		<title>By: mythago</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/08/28/more-on-staying-home-parenthood-responsibility-and-trust/#comment-106047</link>
		<dc:creator>mythago</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Aug 2007 20:50:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/08/28/more-on-staying-home-parenthood-responsibility-and-trust/#comment-106047</guid>
		<description>Candice, if we were doing what is "biologically mandated", women would show up at the office with their babies in slings. The idea of staying home instead of doing something economically productive for the family, or not bringing children along for the day's work, is a very new one.

&lt;I&gt;I never thought about it that way.&lt;/I&gt;

Well, that is really the point--not that it's wrong or foolish for you to be SAHM, but if you've never thought about other choices, or how you have to make choices that men aren't expected to, then "it's my own free choice" is not the whole story.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Candice, if we were doing what is &#8220;biologically mandated&#8221;, women would show up at the office with their babies in slings. The idea of staying home instead of doing something economically productive for the family, or not bringing children along for the day&#8217;s work, is a very new one.</p>
<p><i>I never thought about it that way.</i></p>
<p>Well, that is really the point&#8211;not that it&#8217;s wrong or foolish for you to be SAHM, but if you&#8217;ve never thought about other choices, or how you have to make choices that men aren&#8217;t expected to, then &#8220;it&#8217;s my own free choice&#8221; is not the whole story.</p>
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		<title>By: Candice</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/08/28/more-on-staying-home-parenthood-responsibility-and-trust/#comment-105920</link>
		<dc:creator>Candice</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Aug 2007 15:19:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/08/28/more-on-staying-home-parenthood-responsibility-and-trust/#comment-105920</guid>
		<description>I think what I am most perplexed about in this discussion is what is a pretty main element to staying at home...the child.  Children are biologically programmed to be close to their mothers during the first minimum year of life.  The mothers produce the milk that is vital to having a thriving immune system (because though one can survive on formula, thriving would be a large stretch, as formula is dead and breastmilk changes every feeding).  Most other western societies recognise this, in Canada you get a year's paid maternity leave.
I also think talking about this in "theory" is a lot different than giving birth and given the amazing responsibility of raising another human being.   For me, it wasn't much of a "choice", my child was born and I continued to work a couple of days a week until even that became incredibly difficult to sustain.  So I left the work force and I have SAHMed ever since. I frankly get really annoyed at the implication that I didn't know what I was doing.  No, I know full well what I am doing.  I know that if my husband and I were to divorce, because apparently I am his "employee" , there is a very significant chance that I would end up close to the poverty line, because that is where most single mom's are.  and I would be lying to say that doesn't scare me.  But right now, I am making the best choice for my family and myself that I will not regret.  Besides, I think a woman like myself would take my former husband "to the mattresses" if I had to to fight for myself and my children.  I am not trying to be a martyr here, nor do I consider myself to be enmeshed with my children, but my life is no longer about *me* and my worth is not determined by how much money I am capable or not of making.  Just because child rearing is not valued in our society does not mean it lacks value.
That being said, had I had a high paying career, and had my children later in life, this might be a conversation played out completely differently in my life.  I am not sure.  I am not one to sit there and think WOHM's are terrible and selfish either.  In fact, I think they are pretty amazing.  the Preschool/baby days are incredibly draining, and those that can balance both have my utmost respect.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think what I am most perplexed about in this discussion is what is a pretty main element to staying at home&#8230;the child.  Children are biologically programmed to be close to their mothers during the first minimum year of life.  The mothers produce the milk that is vital to having a thriving immune system (because though one can survive on formula, thriving would be a large stretch, as formula is dead and breastmilk changes every feeding).  Most other western societies recognise this, in Canada you get a year&#8217;s paid maternity leave.<br />
I also think talking about this in &#8220;theory&#8221; is a lot different than giving birth and given the amazing responsibility of raising another human being.   For me, it wasn&#8217;t much of a &#8220;choice&#8221;, my child was born and I continued to work a couple of days a week until even that became incredibly difficult to sustain.  So I left the work force and I have SAHMed ever since. I frankly get really annoyed at the implication that I didn&#8217;t know what I was doing.  No, I know full well what I am doing.  I know that if my husband and I were to divorce, because apparently I am his &#8220;employee&#8221; , there is a very significant chance that I would end up close to the poverty line, because that is where most single mom&#8217;s are.  and I would be lying to say that doesn&#8217;t scare me.  But right now, I am making the best choice for my family and myself that I will not regret.  Besides, I think a woman like myself would take my former husband &#8220;to the mattresses&#8221; if I had to to fight for myself and my children.  I am not trying to be a martyr here, nor do I consider myself to be enmeshed with my children, but my life is no longer about *me* and my worth is not determined by how much money I am capable or not of making.  Just because child rearing is not valued in our society does not mean it lacks value.<br />
That being said, had I had a high paying career, and had my children later in life, this might be a conversation played out completely differently in my life.  I am not sure.  I am not one to sit there and think WOHM&#8217;s are terrible and selfish either.  In fact, I think they are pretty amazing.  the Preschool/baby days are incredibly draining, and those that can balance both have my utmost respect.</p>
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		<title>By: Dan Zeorlin</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/08/28/more-on-staying-home-parenthood-responsibility-and-trust/#comment-105914</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan Zeorlin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Aug 2007 15:04:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/08/28/more-on-staying-home-parenthood-responsibility-and-trust/#comment-105914</guid>
		<description>Hi Hugo,

Will you visit my blog and give me feedback?

Thanks,

Dan</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Hugo,</p>
<p>Will you visit my blog and give me feedback?</p>
<p>Thanks,</p>
<p>Dan</p>
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		<title>By: mythago</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/08/28/more-on-staying-home-parenthood-responsibility-and-trust/#comment-105905</link>
		<dc:creator>mythago</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Aug 2007 14:48:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/08/28/more-on-staying-home-parenthood-responsibility-and-trust/#comment-105905</guid>
		<description>&lt;I&gt;Still, it seems like whoever stays home will get flack regardless of their gender.&lt;/I&gt;

Sure. That's because childrearing is, y'know, Women's Work and good enough for the ladies, but if a man does it, he's lazy, unmanly or both. Conservative who claim to respect SAHM are, essentially, doing the same thing you or I would do in praising a five-year-old for doing an especially colorful fingerpainting: it's wonderful for their level of ability and maturity, but we sure wouldn't be lavishly praising a fifteen-year-old for doing it.

As for feminists insisting women not stay home, I was pretty sure it was all those crazy  crypto-Marxist feminazi types who were agitating for flextime, shared jobs, childcare at work, etc.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Still, it seems like whoever stays home will get flack regardless of their gender.</i></p>
<p>Sure. That&#8217;s because childrearing is, y&#8217;know, Women&#8217;s Work and good enough for the ladies, but if a man does it, he&#8217;s lazy, unmanly or both. Conservative who claim to respect SAHM are, essentially, doing the same thing you or I would do in praising a five-year-old for doing an especially colorful fingerpainting: it&#8217;s wonderful for their level of ability and maturity, but we sure wouldn&#8217;t be lavishly praising a fifteen-year-old for doing it.</p>
<p>As for feminists insisting women not stay home, I was pretty sure it was all those crazy  crypto-Marxist feminazi types who were agitating for flextime, shared jobs, childcare at work, etc.</p>
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		<title>By: sophonisba</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/08/28/more-on-staying-home-parenthood-responsibility-and-trust/#comment-105633</link>
		<dc:creator>sophonisba</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Aug 2007 06:21:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/08/28/more-on-staying-home-parenthood-responsibility-and-trust/#comment-105633</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;It’s not a stretch to say that “staying home” without a steady independent income places one in a vulnerable position. &lt;/i&gt;

Well, vulnerable &lt;i&gt;and degrading.&lt;/i&gt; Any woman with a trust fund who wants to be a SAHM can knock herself out. Why not? She's choosing to work for herself -- to run her own small business, if you will. Those of us who aren't so lucky have to consider whether SAHM-hood is really worth having our paychecks signed by our husbands. Most men have the tact not to refer to their wives' money as their "allowance" anymore, but more genteel language only does so much to mask the reality. There's a reason people are discouraged from dating their bosses, and even when they are both feminist, the &lt;I&gt;financial&lt;/i&gt; relationship of working husband to SAH-wife is that of employer to employee. No amount of sincerity about "our money" and equal partnerships can erase the fact that the money flows from the husband's employer, to the husband, and from there to the wife. In exactly the proportions he chooses. If he is kind, or fair, or feminist, he may &lt;i&gt;choose&lt;/i&gt; to put his money into a shared account she has full power to draw from. And she has that power, if she has it, because &lt;i&gt;he gave it to her.&lt;/i&gt;

And all this ugliness has nothing to do with how reliable or trustworthy a man is as an individual. It has nothing to do with how well-prepared a woman should be for divorce or abandonment. It doesn't even have anything to do with whether a woman has any desire for participation in public life or ambition for a career. You could have no such ambitions, you could know with absolute certainty that your husband was a feminist prince who would never leave you, and the fact would still remain that except for whatever assets you brought into the marriage, &lt;i&gt;all the money you have came from him.&lt;/i&gt; People talk about being a SAHM as a job, and a job it certainly is. It's a job whose salary has nothing &lt;i&gt;at all&lt;/i&gt; to do with how hard you work or how much, or how well, but purely on how much money your husband has.

So, until SAHMs start drawing a salary from some source other than the men they're married to, which is not likely to happen soon, if at all, it is going to be a big huge ugly mess for feminist women.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>It’s not a stretch to say that “staying home” without a steady independent income places one in a vulnerable position. </i></p>
<p>Well, vulnerable <i>and degrading.</i> Any woman with a trust fund who wants to be a SAHM can knock herself out. Why not? She&#8217;s choosing to work for herself &#8212; to run her own small business, if you will. Those of us who aren&#8217;t so lucky have to consider whether SAHM-hood is really worth having our paychecks signed by our husbands. Most men have the tact not to refer to their wives&#8217; money as their &#8220;allowance&#8221; anymore, but more genteel language only does so much to mask the reality. There&#8217;s a reason people are discouraged from dating their bosses, and even when they are both feminist, the <i>financial</i> relationship of working husband to SAH-wife is that of employer to employee. No amount of sincerity about &#8220;our money&#8221; and equal partnerships can erase the fact that the money flows from the husband&#8217;s employer, to the husband, and from there to the wife. In exactly the proportions he chooses. If he is kind, or fair, or feminist, he may <i>choose</i> to put his money into a shared account she has full power to draw from. And she has that power, if she has it, because <i>he gave it to her.</i></p>
<p>And all this ugliness has nothing to do with how reliable or trustworthy a man is as an individual. It has nothing to do with how well-prepared a woman should be for divorce or abandonment. It doesn&#8217;t even have anything to do with whether a woman has any desire for participation in public life or ambition for a career. You could have no such ambitions, you could know with absolute certainty that your husband was a feminist prince who would never leave you, and the fact would still remain that except for whatever assets you brought into the marriage, <i>all the money you have came from him.</i> People talk about being a SAHM as a job, and a job it certainly is. It&#8217;s a job whose salary has nothing <i>at all</i> to do with how hard you work or how much, or how well, but purely on how much money your husband has.</p>
<p>So, until SAHMs start drawing a salary from some source other than the men they&#8217;re married to, which is not likely to happen soon, if at all, it is going to be a big huge ugly mess for feminist women.</p>
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		<title>By: Mermade</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/08/28/more-on-staying-home-parenthood-responsibility-and-trust/#comment-105569</link>
		<dc:creator>Mermade</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Aug 2007 03:55:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/08/28/more-on-staying-home-parenthood-responsibility-and-trust/#comment-105569</guid>
		<description>"Nobody scolds men for foolishly trying to have it all. Nobody suggests that a man must choose between being “a husband and a father” or an independent businessman; it’s assume that he’ll seamlessly blend career and family, because his wife will handle all that troublesome childcare stuff."

I never thought about it that way. I think that, ideally, someone should be home with the kids, at least when they're small. I realize that's not always possible when money is tight. And for me, it looks like money will always be tight. 

Still, it seems like whoever stays home will get flack regardless of their gender. Men who stay home are burdened with a stigma: according to most people, stay-at-home-dads are lazy sissies and should be "bringing home the bacon." If a woman stays home, the feminist movement wonders if her choice was made in a vacuum. That is a good and accurate critique, of course, but saying you are a SAHM either comes with a bit of suspicion, or is glorified as a almost every woman's "God-given role" at places like Biblical Womanhood. It's hard, as a Christian feminist, to make a choice like this: is this what God wants me to do with my life, or am I doing it because that's what women "should do" according to society when they have kids?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Nobody scolds men for foolishly trying to have it all. Nobody suggests that a man must choose between being “a husband and a father” or an independent businessman; it’s assume that he’ll seamlessly blend career and family, because his wife will handle all that troublesome childcare stuff.&#8221;</p>
<p>I never thought about it that way. I think that, ideally, someone should be home with the kids, at least when they&#8217;re small. I realize that&#8217;s not always possible when money is tight. And for me, it looks like money will always be tight. </p>
<p>Still, it seems like whoever stays home will get flack regardless of their gender. Men who stay home are burdened with a stigma: according to most people, stay-at-home-dads are lazy sissies and should be &#8220;bringing home the bacon.&#8221; If a woman stays home, the feminist movement wonders if her choice was made in a vacuum. That is a good and accurate critique, of course, but saying you are a SAHM either comes with a bit of suspicion, or is glorified as a almost every woman&#8217;s &#8220;God-given role&#8221; at places like Biblical Womanhood. It&#8217;s hard, as a Christian feminist, to make a choice like this: is this what God wants me to do with my life, or am I doing it because that&#8217;s what women &#8220;should do&#8221; according to society when they have kids?</p>
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