Mythago links to this post by “jolt” about women, ageing, and objectification. Read the post, and the one to which she also links.
Jolt writes:
I have definitely experienced all sorts of verbal harrasment, but not as frequently as I used to. It may be that years of suffering these unwarranted intrusions have made me oblivious a lot of the time, worn down from the constant onslaught. But I think it’s also that now I am in my late 30s I have moved from “potentially fuckable and thus subject to any and all pestering that any idiot male chooses to provide” to “eh, not old, but why bother.”
Part of me is really enjoying this slide into the invisibility of females over 35. Part of me is just pissed off. Look, I don’t need the hassle, but when even the lack of hassle pulls you into the swirl of the patriarchy and assigns you your rank therein, it’s annoying as hell.
Obviously, one of the most insidious aspects of patriarchal culture is the way in which it teaches women to assess their own value through the desire that they arouse in men. Even more toxic is that your average 17 year-old girl will receive more catcalls and sexualized comments on the street than her 45 year-old mother. No less an authority than the infamous John Derbyshire insists that women hit their “sell by” date somewhere around twenty.
Of course, rude, crass, and decidedly unwanted sexual attention can be annoying and disillusioning at best — and soul-scarring at worst. Yet we teach young women that that attention — no matter how vulgar — is a measure of their value. It’s easy to dismiss that connection intellectually, but I’ve known plenty of women who have found, much to their own frustration, that on some level they’ve “bought in” to this notion that strange men on the street do have the power to assign their value.
As a forty year-old man on the cusp of what was, traditionally, middle-age, I am ever more keenly aware of my male privilege. I’ve been teaching full-time since I was 27 (and I was a very young-looking 27 when I started). In my first few years, I felt as if my youthfulness was an obstacle to being taken seriously. I felt as if a great many of my students were asking themselves, “How much can he possibly know? He looks too young to be a professor.”
In the last thirteen years, I’ve gained a tremendous amount of experience. That experience has made me a better teacher, of course. But I also am keenly aware that ageing has brought me a degree of respect from my students and colleagues that I simply did not enjoy when I was younger. In 1994, my students looked at me as a slightly older peer, and I know that for some, that proved an obstacle to their learning. While in those early years I received far more validation for being “cute” or “hot” than I do these days, the concomitant perceived lack of gravitas compromised my legitimacy as a teacher.
I’ve heard from a number of female friends in my age group (late thirties, early-to-mid forties) who are coping with what jolt so accurately calls the “slide into invisibility of females over 35.” These are accomplished, creative, brilliant, interesting, beautiful women. None defines herself solely by her sex appeal, but several have quietly pointed out their own considerable ambivalence about ageing and this increasing “invisibility.”
Earlier this year, right before my 40th birthday, I was telling a group of colleagues in the faculty “party room” about how excited I was to be hitting this chronological milestone. One of my female peers reminded me, gently, that my enthusiasm was at least in part tied to male privilege. There is little that men lose by ageing, she noted. Not only do we traditionally tend to see older men as more desirable, even when older men lose their looks, we don’t hold their slide into middle-age against them. I can’t remember exactly what her words were, but my colleague — who has known me since I first came on board at the college — said something like “What you, Hugo, lose in ‘youthful hotness’ you gain in ‘weight’; men who get older don’t get noticed less, they just get noticed differently. Women sometimes don’t get noticed at all.” (She had a cleverer way of saying it than that, and when I remember it, I’ll revise this post!)
I’ve written many times about the “older men, younger women” problem. Make no mistake, our cultural obsession with sexualizing very young women is inextricably linked to a dismissiveness of “older” women’s desirability. While the catcalls and the wolfwhistles and the cheesy pick-up lines may become less common (to a not inconsiderable amount of relief on the part of their targets), as jolt writes, “even the lack of hassle pulls you into the swirl of the patriarchy and assigns you your rank therein.”
I’m really, really, really happy being forty. I like my wrinkles. I like watching my body change. Age is not my enemy today. To put it simply, when I was a boyish 27 I felt my youth was a decided liability in my work; at 40, I have no such concerns. But even when I enjoyed the flattery, I never connected my worth to my (brief) status as the “young hottie” on the faculty. Male privilege meant that my perceived attractiveness was essentially irrelevant to my work as a professor, and its disappearance has not impacted my credibility. The same has not, I’m sorry to say, always been true in the experience of my colleagues. And in that sense, the freedom to celebrate ageing without a trace of anxiety is, at least in part, considerably easier for men.
Eh. Except for a brief period between 18 and 22, I’ve been invisible to males due to fatness. Like a lot of things, it is what you make of it. Invisibility can be liberating, in its strange way.
A lot of people just seem to find it upsetting, though. Which is too bad.
“our cultural obsession with sexualizing very young women”
Great, Hugo. And then:
“your average attractive 17 year-old girl”
Why did you have to say “attractive”? Are you, personally, attracted to 17 year old women?
Second point, note I said “women” and not girl as you did (though not in the first quote!). There are some strong social implications to assigning a level of physical desirability to someone whom you regard as a “girl.”
pisaquari, I am sorry if it came across as if I was reinforcing the very thing I am decrying here; the use of the term “attractive” was meant to describe the mind of the male objectifier, not to reflect my mindset. I altered the post to be clearer.
BTW, I do use “girl” and “boy” to describe teenagers. I think it perfectly appropriate.
Thank you, Hugo.
I understand that girl can mean various age ranges for various people. As a feminist pulling word-strings, however, I tend to be a bit sensitive as I feel the female sex is infantilized waaay more than the male sex (who gets told to “be a MAN” shortly after diapers).
I was also confused, which I alluded to earlier, that the female sex being “very young” was collectively referred to as “women” while a 17 year old was a “girl.”
But now I am being annoying. Great post as usual. I hope it provides some much needed comfort to the unfortunate “invisible.”
As a 42 yr old woman, I am ‘invisible’ to the young hot men in this university town. I don’t mind, because the men *I* am attracted to are not 20, and the men who are attracted to me are not attracted to the 20 yr old women. Our culture bombards women with the message that you must be young to be attractive. Whether or not a woman chooses to believe this message and allows her life to revolve around it is up to her. I feel no discrimination, as a 42 yr old woman with wrinkles and stretch marks and all those other horrible flaws, because I choose not to.
Ibod: “Pisaquari needs to be cock-slapped.”
I’m guessing Hugo is having a nice sleep-in for Labor Day weekend and will be removing this Hate Speech soon.
I was sleeping in…
I feel no discrimination, as a 42 yr old woman with wrinkles and stretch marks and all those other horrible flaws, because I choose not to.
Which would be all great grand and wonderful if discrimination was a feeling, and you know, not an external action someone does to you. Due to training, most people could hit me and I could a) not feel it or b) work through it. Doesn’t mean I want to be hit.
Well, pushing 50 here…and thinking I’ve been insulated from this sense of invisibility through the rural lifestyle, the relatively consistant attentions of the BH over the years, the longstanding self-employment, and a general ability to engage just about anyone in a friendly fashion.
Like Antigone…I honestly don’t care. Any individual whose attention I require who considers me invisible because I’m menopausal will be still be obliged to deal with me as an individual. I can see to it!
It is not that hard, especially when one doesn’t care what an asshole thinks.
My concern is really for the young’uns. I think it is easier for those of us who have established our families, careers, and social circles to assert ourselves in most any situation, because there is really nothing we can be threatened with…
Far harder for young women still struggling to find their place NOT to be affected by the dismissal of others, based on the “fuckability” factor. For young women, there is no getting away from the “no man=failure in life” and all the attached baggage.
I can remember, as a woman in her 20s, wishing away my visibilty as a ‘’sexy” young woman and all the hassle it brought. I never felt the attention I got was positive for me - and now I’m in my late 30s I still get stares from men in cars and flirting from taxi drivers etc but somehow it doesn’t seem to affect me as much. I feel visible as a mature adult too, I’m not just something too lear at. I suppose that is confidence and experience.
My optimistic nature convinces me that as my ‘bloom’ fades I will be valued for being me and seen more as me, becoming more visible - not as fresh blood; and I hope that age will filter out romantic con men who are only interested in an idea of what I am, saving me a stressful job.
“For young women, there is no getting away from the “no man=failure in life” and all the attached baggage.”
There are ways of getting away from that. I am 28, single, have lived in various different countries and speak 3 languages, I write poetry, I jog, etc. I feel absolutely 0 pressure from my friends or family to “have a man.” People who engage me, as a person, are more interested in where I have been, what I have done, what I have written and why than they are in my civil status. These are the people that I have in my life. If a person starts to engage me on the basis of whether or not I have a boyfriend or am married, I walk away.
We cannot isolate ourselves completely from society. However, we do choose our friends. We can get away from the “no man=failure” bs by accomplishing other things, having full lives completely independent of the men in them and by chosing communities who accept and even encourage this.
Whether or not a woman chooses to believe this message and allows her life to revolve around it is up to her.
Thank you–I was going to post almost the exact same sentiment, and you did it for me.
It makes me happy to read other comments to the same effect.
I meant to have that italized, but it didn’t. The first paragraph in the comment was not me.
Oh Indeed Christina, but I was thinking of a somewhat younger age range when I made my observation.
That said, I can’t help but acknowledge a twinge of envy…
How about a post on the allure of the post-45, post -55, etc. year old woman and how to convince men in their forties, fifties and 60s to appreciate it. I know the 75 year old men like a nice 50 year old.
On the other hand, there are men who want the “older woman.” I am 37 and get regular attention from men 10 to 15 years younger than I am. I think part of this is because I have a sexual confidence that I didn’t have in my teens and early twenties. I don’t actually sleep with most of these men, (although I have attempted a couple relationships) but they seem to pick up on something. I’m just assuming that’s what it is. I also have a pretty good sense of humor so maybe that helps.
I’m sure I’m not the only one experiencing this.
My problem seems to be meeting someone my age. :)
Many mid-life women feel that men almost always go for the younger woman. Although statistics say that men marry within three years of their age, they feel that that only holds when they are young.
So, I’ve created a survey to find that out. If you wish to participate (10 questions long), please go to
http://www.surveymonkey.com/s.aspx?sm=vVdXHdoBoWnsIhqL8e7Z6w_3d_3d.
Thanks!
Casey Dawes
Wise Woman Shining
http://www.WiseWomanShining.com
Young women turn more heads than mature women. What an EXCITING insight! (About as original and enlighting as — ooops - my age is about to show — a broken phonograph record!) Most of us women of “uncertain age” (like me) are married, accomplished, getting laid regularly the way we like it. I didn’t want anything to do with the nincompoops who hassled girls on the street when I was 20 - Why on earth would I need their affirmation now that I’m 45? The stereotype this essay conjures up is depressing and antiquated. Let me describe myself - because I am like many women walking around who were born in the early 1960’s. I have a good looking (slightly younger) husband of nearly 20 years, 2 teenage kids, an advanced degree - and the career and income that goes with it. I have a 24-inch waist, wear a size 2, and nothing sags or droops. From the neck down, I’ve had the same thing going on since about 1977. From the neck up - you can tell at a glance that my 20’s are long gone. But it’s not about wrinkles - I don’t have many - it’s about CHANGE. I think I can speak for many, many women my age when I say that I am NEVER insulted by the fact that a lot of men like young women - I took my turn at being young - and it’s their turn now. I am, however, VERY insulted when men express some jackass idea that I personally wish I could be 20 again - or (worse yet) be perpetually frozen in time! This thinking implies that after 25 years of hard work, living, loving and thinking, I have LOST more than I’ve gained! - That, to me, is the ULTIMATE idiotic dismissal - and it has nothing to do with sexuality.
I have enjoyed reading the comments here. I am a women age 47 and having amore difficult time with this then many who have posted here. The truth is today women are invaluable as they mature and I include myself. In my chosen profession I see myself as a mentor and expert in my field. At home I have a loving husband who has enjoyed seeing me mature. I am very active and fit. I have children who are grown and respectful I have given up on popular forms of media because the protrayal of my age group is just plain false in my opinion. Still it is difficult for women who need to be productive during this time of their life and are still attempting to engage men and women of all ages. It is now when I am gaining th best insight into men yet I feel so easily dismissed at times. I hope women can find acceptance as we age, continue to mature gracefully and be permitted to make the contributions at work and home. That is the truth nothing more and I do not doubt that most women would agree, we want to be recignized not for our looks but for our ability to contribute at work, in the community and at home.
I really was a bit shocked at the arrogant commentary from “carol”, and was more inclined to believe the other comments from the older 40’s women. But, i think it really is about single women in there 40’s, They may have been divorced or widowed in there 50’sbut to try to even gain any attention sexually from single men of there age is almost impossible unless you have an alcoholic drink in your hand. I mean to say almost all men that i have met that are single in this age, are serious alcoholics, narcissistic, or just serious players who actually have no problem telling you that you are over the hill, and dont care for stretch marks and sagging skin. Please dont tell me there are nice 40’s and 50’s men available out there, for i have done the complete route, from every social club, church club, athletic club, it all seems the same. When your my age 46 you are invisible. Case in point, me and my 19 year old daughter walked into a nice restaurant that was having quite a few tables with alot of men from some industry company celebrating so many years in business. The talking came almost to a stop, as we walked by, and as most of the men were 40,50, and 60, i was curious and looked back, so help me….. every one of those men were looking at my daughter. She on the other hand was just grossed out, by all those dirty old men. Well anyways just to let you know, we may have to accept this reality as women, but it does hurt someplace deep inside. no dont give me advice, i can assure i have already done it. Its just reality and it is what it is.
Constance, that’s exactly why women have traditionally felt great pressure to marry young, while you are attractive enough to snag a husband.
I am 43 but not completely invisible as yet. I can easily pass for 33 and have a younger bf. I am trying to close that deal, because it does get harder for single women. Men are attracted to younger women, I like younger men. Generally, we all look better when we’re younger. Beauty, good looks, is the “fuckability factor” its nature’s signal that you are fit for mating, so naturally it peaks in youth. Men like us young, and that’s just simple biology. Everything you can do to stay attractive and fit can’t hurt. Don’t think that letting yourself go and expecting men to take you as you are is going to work.
And for heaven’s sake do not listen to those idiots who say you’re desperate, holding on to your youth, and all that crap, just because you want to dye your hair or not dress like Hilary Clinton. We should all be keeping fit and attractive. That’s not just for young people.
I’ve also noticed that society seems to age women sooner than men. Women 35 and older are seen as OLD. When you consistently see in popular culture women paired up with men 15 and 20 years their senior, and young actresses playing the mothers of people who are only 5 – 10 years younger, you get a perception that women who look a certain way are older than their actual age.
The fashion industry can be blamed as well. What reason can their possibly be to hire a 13, 14, 15 and 16 year olds to model products that are sold to adult women? Well, I know why. Many of these girls are effortlessly bone thin. Adult women have curves. But again, it’s a distortion of womanhood to have the girl represent the woman. Now the face of the girl is seen as the face of the woman so that actual women 25, 30, 40 suddenly seem “elderly”
It’s narcissistic to assume that women like older (looking) men. Fat bellies, baldness, gray/white hair, and dirty old look, especially in professors disgust us profoundly. We have eyes and judgment, too. Honestly, how better could you guys look anyway than a beautiful young Adonis? Academic male narcissism is sad and hopeless.
Addi, amen. Speaking as one of those older fellows who has regularly spoken out against older men/younger women relationships, I couldn’t agree more.
“For young women, there is no getting away from the “no man=failure in life” and all the attached baggage.”
I couldn’t agree more. I’m 32, and it took me until 30 to realise the positive social status bestowed on partnered (nay, married) women. The benefits are many, and immense. And (other) women recognise this: it’s not just the biological clock that sends women scurrying to the aisle, after all, babies can occur outside of marriages too.
“There are ways of getting away from that. I am 28, single, have lived in various different countries and speak 3 languages, I write poetry, I jog, etc.”
I applaud your talents. And I used to feel this way at your age, too. I’ve lived on the other side of the world, travelled very widely, gained a stellar education, risen in my career, lived independently for years, and looked after myself. Unfortunately, when all my friends partnered off, I was left trying to prove to society that a woman’s accomplishments also contribute to her societal value. Only, I discovered the cold, hard truth: they don’t. I can guarantee that anyone who tells you otherwise, especially a woman, is nodding at you patronisingly as she speaks.
“We can get away from the “no man=failure” bs by accomplishing other things, having full lives completely independent of the men in them and by chosing communities who accept and even encourage this.”
Yes we can, but it involves grieving the dream of wider social approval that we all crave. I’ve started my journey towards single motherhood by choice.
“On the other hand, there are men who want the “older woman.” I am 37 and get regular attention from men 10 to 15 years younger than I am.”
Me too, but I’m not interested in one-night stands.
“Many mid-life women feel that men almost always go for the younger woman. Although statistics say that men marry within three years of their age, they feel that that only holds when they are young.”
In my experience, in a big city, I couldn’t agree more. I know it’s wrong, and perhaps shameful because of the helplessness such a sentiment conveys, but I feel betrayed that no-one told me that partnering with a man my age was most likely when I was in my twenties.
“I didn’t want anything to do with the nincompoops who hassled girls on the street when I was 20 - Why on earth would I need their affirmation now that I’m 45?”
You don’t need them to affirm your value because your desirability because you’re married – your wedding ring gives you social status, confirms your desirability, and boosts your value in the community. Single women over thirty don’t have that social status, confirmation of their desirability, or an advanced social standing in the community. Don’t underestimate the power of such absences to wreak havoc with self-worth – catcalls are ludicrous, but they’re at least confirmation that you’re still attractive, in one way or another, to someone who may or may not be. Reciprocal attraction is not the issue here.
“Well anyways just to let you know, we may have to accept this reality as women, but it does hurt someplace deep inside.”
Yes, it does. It hurts very much, and no one deserves to have such hurt invalidated by people who have taken different life routes.
“I’ve also noticed that society seems to age women sooner than men. Women 35 and older are seen as OLD. “
Did I mention that I’m 32 and petrified? I can’t believe I woke up to this fact so late. Please tell your daughters the truth – not how you want society to view women, but how they do view women.
“It’s narcissistic to assume that women like older (looking) men. Fat bellies, baldness, gray/white hair, and dirty old look, especially in professors disgust us profoundly.”
I agree, it’s a ridiculous myth that women find such older men attractive. Equally ridiculous is the high rating such men give their appearance – not their inner qualities, their appearance. Don’t believe me? Head to any online dating website to see how many ugly men over 40 rate themselves as beautiful, and prefer slim women aged 20-30.
I’m frightened. But I’m embarking on single motherhood, and hoping that maybe, one day, I might meet a man to share the ups and downs with life with. Only, now I know how society works.