Comments on: “Boys Adrift”: part two of a review http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/09/05/boys-adrift-part-two-of-a-review/ Thu, 08 Jan 2009 02:24:32 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.3.3 By: lipshurt http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/09/05/boys-adrift-part-two-of-a-review/#comment-231736 lipshurt Sat, 16 Feb 2008 04:30:30 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/09/05/boys-adrift-part-two-of-a-review/#comment-231736 I am a teacher, and do see this happening, but see a different reason, which i think is pretty obvious. I would bet that 90 percent of the young men you guys are talking about are canabis users, and went to college and smoked pot all day and got bad grades. I have seen that more times than i can count. Pot is way stronger now that it was in the past, and boys simply do a lot more smoking. Pot is really destructive if you ask me, but people rarely mention it at staff development meetings where the talk is of boys who are underachieving compared to girls. It's even worse for younger kids, but when someone mentions it as a problem you hear groans from both Staff and students. I don't get. It's obvious. I am a teacher, and do see this happening, but see a different reason, which i think is pretty obvious. I would bet that 90 percent of the young men you guys are talking about are canabis users, and went to college and smoked pot all day and got bad grades. I have seen that more times than i can count. Pot is way stronger now that it was in the past, and boys simply do a lot more smoking.
Pot is really destructive if you ask me, but people rarely mention it at staff development meetings where the talk is of boys who are underachieving compared to girls. It’s even worse for younger kids, but when someone mentions it as a problem you hear groans from both Staff and students. I don’t get. It’s obvious.

]]> By: polymath http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/09/05/boys-adrift-part-two-of-a-review/#comment-203718 polymath Fri, 18 Jan 2008 15:58:17 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/09/05/boys-adrift-part-two-of-a-review/#comment-203718 All this whining about boys not being able to compete is incredibly tedious. Of course boys did better in the past -- they did not have any competition. If you're a slow runner and you're racing only other slow runners, you've got a decent chance of winning. But if you admit others to the race, your chances diminish significantly. Face it: until the 1970s, boys and men were living in a nicely cushioned world of pro-male (and pro-white) affirmative action. Your average white boy only had to compete with perhaps 35-40% of other children, since the adults in his world had already rules all the girls and 'minorities' out of the picture. A slow race indeed! Now boys have to compete with 100% of children, so of course some of them are going to do worse than they used to do in the males-only affirmative action world of the past. That's point one; point two is that, in fact, we're still working and living in a pro-male, pro-white affirmative action world in a whole lot of ways. Girls may do better in school, they may make up the highest percentage of university graduates -- but they're mostly not *teaching* in those universities, except in the poorly paid part-time ghetto. I don't know the statistics for the US, but in Canada, women make up only one third of full-time faculty, less than 10% of Full Professors, but two thirds of part-time faculty. Almost 85% of the appointments for the prestigious Canada Research Chairs went to men. But -- 95% of administrative assistants (the people who used to be called 'secretaries') are women. So, for those boys who do manage to graduate from university on an academic track, the news is great: start applying for a job and you're twice as likely as your sister to be hired in any faculty, including the arts. But, hey, she can always get a job as an admin assistant. And point three is that the whole 'failure to launch' phenomenon is not simply about boys losing the encouragement of the official but un-named affirmative action programs of the past, it's also about a number of social factors. Smaller families mean that parents are over-protective of children and fail to expose them to conditions which would allow them to handle the skills needed to make it the real world. Add to that the general de-skilling of society by corporate capitalism -- you're more likely to buy cake mix if you don't know how to make a cake or to pay to have your oil changed if you don't know how to do it yourself. As an educator, I see again and again students who lack basic life skills. I've met young men who don't know how to operate a can opener, boil a pot of water or even take out the garbage because their parents have 'protected' them from these tedious chores that they themselves did not enjoy as children. But I've met girls with the same lack of skills, so this is not a gender-specific problem. And point four is that schools have moved from teaching children knowledge to bolstering their self-esteem. I have students who are barely passing university classes, but who had As in high school - in classes where virtually everyone got As. This does children no favours; in fact, it would be more honest and decent to go to an ungraded system than to treat grading in such a meaningless fashion. Yet, at the same time, this leaves children lacking any *real* basis for self-esteem, such as knowing how to do something. And it doesn't really matter *what* a child knows how to do, but he or she should be given a chance to be good at something real, whether its academics or sports or manual skills, from mechanics to gardening. It makes me sad when I see grown adults paying for easy skills, such as replacing a rotted board in one's deck, rather than doing it themselves and teaching their children how to do it. No real education, no life skills, no competence in anything except perhaps video games -- it's no wonder these children are scared of the future. All this whining about boys not being able to compete is incredibly tedious. Of course boys did better in the past — they did not have any competition. If you’re a slow runner and you’re racing only other slow runners, you’ve got a decent chance of winning. But if you admit others to the race, your chances diminish significantly. Face it: until the 1970s, boys and men were living in a nicely cushioned world of pro-male (and pro-white) affirmative action. Your average white boy only had to compete with perhaps 35-40% of other children, since the adults in his world had already rules all the girls and ‘minorities’ out of the picture. A slow race indeed! Now boys have to compete with 100% of children, so of course some of them are going to do worse than they used to do in the males-only affirmative action world of the past.

That’s point one; point two is that, in fact, we’re still working and living in a pro-male, pro-white affirmative action world in a whole lot of ways. Girls may do better in school, they may make up the highest percentage of university graduates — but they’re mostly not *teaching* in those universities, except in the poorly paid part-time ghetto. I don’t know the statistics for the US, but in Canada, women make up only one third of full-time faculty, less than 10% of Full Professors, but two thirds of part-time faculty. Almost 85% of the appointments for the prestigious Canada Research Chairs went to men. But — 95% of administrative assistants (the people who used to be called ’secretaries’) are women. So, for those boys who do manage to graduate from university on an academic track, the news is great: start applying for a job and you’re twice as likely as your sister to be hired in any faculty, including the arts. But, hey, she can always get a job as an admin assistant.

And point three is that the whole ‘failure to launch’ phenomenon is not simply about boys losing the encouragement of the official but un-named affirmative action programs of the past, it’s also about a number of social factors. Smaller families mean that parents are over-protective of children and fail to expose them to conditions which would allow them to handle the skills needed to make it the real world. Add to that the general de-skilling of society by corporate capitalism — you’re more likely to buy cake mix if you don’t know how to make a cake or to pay to have your oil changed if you don’t know how to do it yourself. As an educator, I see again and again students who lack basic life skills. I’ve met young men who don’t know how to operate a can opener, boil a pot of water or even take out the garbage because their parents have ‘protected’ them from these tedious chores that they themselves did not enjoy as children. But I’ve met girls with the same lack of skills, so this is not a gender-specific problem.

And point four is that schools have moved from teaching children knowledge to bolstering their self-esteem. I have students who are barely passing university classes, but who had As in high school - in classes where virtually everyone got As. This does children no favours; in fact, it would be more honest and decent to go to an ungraded system than to treat grading in such a meaningless fashion. Yet, at the same time, this leaves children lacking any *real* basis for self-esteem, such as knowing how to do something. And it doesn’t really matter *what* a child knows how to do, but he or she should be given a chance to be good at something real, whether its academics or sports or manual skills, from mechanics to gardening. It makes me sad when I see grown adults paying for easy skills, such as replacing a rotted board in one’s deck, rather than doing it themselves and teaching their children how to do it.

No real education, no life skills, no competence in anything except perhaps video games — it’s no wonder these children are scared of the future.

]]> By: bmmg39 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/09/05/boys-adrift-part-two-of-a-review/#comment-117619 bmmg39 Sun, 23 Sep 2007 00:21:19 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/09/05/boys-adrift-part-two-of-a-review/#comment-117619 "In that case, I’m a bit sceptical about how large the `failure to launch’ problem really is. I know very few fellow twentysomethings that did not move home for 6-12 months after college graduation, but no-one was sitting around playing videogames all day." You're absolutely right, Noumena, they're most likely helping out with the house duties, including maybe[ahem] helping to take care of an elderly family member. But, hey, having him/her sitting around, reading comic books, and whining for Mommy to bring in some sandwiches just makes for a jollier movie, doesn't it? [BLECH] “In that case, I’m a bit sceptical about how large the `failure to launch’ problem really is. I know very few fellow twentysomethings that did not move home for 6-12 months after college graduation, but no-one was sitting around playing videogames all day.”

You’re absolutely right, Noumena, they’re most likely helping out with the house duties, including maybe[ahem] helping to take care of an elderly family member.

But, hey, having him/her sitting around, reading comic books, and whining for Mommy to bring in some sandwiches just makes for a jollier movie, doesn’t it? [BLECH]

]]> By: mythago http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/09/05/boys-adrift-part-two-of-a-review/#comment-112308 mythago Wed, 12 Sep 2007 13:28:41 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/09/05/boys-adrift-part-two-of-a-review/#comment-112308 Hugo, this might be a good time to review your post about your cultural blinders re "flying the nest". ;) That said, while adult kids will do what they do, aren't parents sorta responsible for teaching them how to live on their own? How can you complain that your child needs shelter at 19 if you sheltered him at 17? Hugo, this might be a good time to review your post about your cultural blinders re “flying the nest”. ;)

That said, while adult kids will do what they do, aren’t parents sorta responsible for teaching them how to live on their own? How can you complain that your child needs shelter at 19 if you sheltered him at 17?

]]> By: NBarnes http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/09/05/boys-adrift-part-two-of-a-review/#comment-110347 NBarnes Fri, 07 Sep 2007 02:13:45 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/09/05/boys-adrift-part-two-of-a-review/#comment-110347 Noumena: Given that I'm a classic example of the breed, my perspective is skewed. But we do exist. On the other hand, I'm going back to college (North Seattle Community College) at the age of 29 later this month, so there's hope for me yet. And it only took 11 years past the usual time one is expected to be up to it for me to be really ready to own going to college. :/ Noumena: Given that I’m a classic example of the breed, my perspective is skewed. But we do exist.

On the other hand, I’m going back to college (North Seattle Community College) at the age of 29 later this month, so there’s hope for me yet. And it only took 11 years past the usual time one is expected to be up to it for me to be really ready to own going to college. :/

]]> By: brightbluelizard http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/09/05/boys-adrift-part-two-of-a-review/#comment-109907 brightbluelizard Thu, 06 Sep 2007 02:43:05 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/09/05/boys-adrift-part-two-of-a-review/#comment-109907 Most of the people I've talked to went working, traveling & volunteering for a few years & then went to post-secondary only around age 22 - 25 (which is what I'm doing). If we're serious about helping young adults "launch" fully when they cross the 20-yr milestone, maybe we need to quit sheltering them quite as much when they're in their teens. Start teaching them about the stuff they need to know in the adult world & why (like personal ID cards, how to negotiate good deals, budget & time management, etc) & also, have them work asap in babysitting or whatever job is open for under-age kids (here in British Columbia we have summer berry-picking). Have them contribute a portion to the family income -or, better yet, to their own education fund. Also, insist that they volunteer for at least 1 organization throughout each year. Lastly, the bit about debt & education is a huge one. It amazes me the weird things parents in North America are duped into buying for their babies & toddlers who really could care less whether his/her doll is a ltd edition Barbie or a Tonka truck with all the bells & whistles. (Not to mention the insane "advice" parents are given by the latest "experts"). Save some of that money for the kids' education. Most of the people I’ve talked to went working, traveling & volunteering for a few years & then went to post-secondary only around age 22 - 25 (which is what I’m doing).
If we’re serious about helping young adults “launch” fully when they cross the 20-yr milestone, maybe we need to quit sheltering them quite as much when they’re in their teens. Start teaching them about the stuff they need to know in the adult world & why (like personal ID cards, how to negotiate good deals, budget & time management, etc) & also, have them work asap in babysitting or whatever job is open for under-age kids (here in British Columbia we have summer berry-picking). Have them contribute a portion to the family income -or, better yet, to their own education fund. Also, insist that they volunteer for at least 1 organization throughout each year.
Lastly, the bit about debt & education is a huge one. It amazes me the weird things parents in North America are duped into buying for their babies & toddlers who really could care less whether his/her doll is a ltd edition Barbie or a Tonka truck with all the bells & whistles. (Not to mention the insane “advice” parents are given by the latest “experts”). Save some of that money for the kids’ education.

]]> By: Noumena http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/09/05/boys-adrift-part-two-of-a-review/#comment-109701 Noumena Wed, 05 Sep 2007 20:24:32 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/09/05/boys-adrift-part-two-of-a-review/#comment-109701 In that case, I'm a bit sceptical about how large the `failure to launch' problem really is. I know very few fellow twentysomethings that did not move home for 6-12 months after college graduation, but no-one was sitting around playing videogames all day. In that case, I’m a bit sceptical about how large the `failure to launch’ problem really is. I know very few fellow twentysomethings that did not move home for 6-12 months after college graduation, but no-one was sitting around playing videogames all day.

]]> By: Antigone http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/09/05/boys-adrift-part-two-of-a-review/#comment-109694 Antigone Wed, 05 Sep 2007 20:19:47 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/09/05/boys-adrift-part-two-of-a-review/#comment-109694 I'd have to see some statistics on that...I'd say that number is so low as to be useless, and probably has been steady for the last few decades. I’d have to see some statistics on that…I’d say that number is so low as to be useless, and probably has been steady for the last few decades.

]]> By: Hugo Schwyzer http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/09/05/boys-adrift-part-two-of-a-review/#comment-109665 Hugo Schwyzer Wed, 05 Sep 2007 18:43:28 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/09/05/boys-adrift-part-two-of-a-review/#comment-109665 Perhaps I didn't quote Sax fully enough. As long as a child is either a full-time student, or working -- and PAYING RENT (even a token sum) to stay in the home, Sax is okay with it. So am I. The choice between debt and dependency isn't even a choice sometimes -- sometimes you end up with both. I honor that. We're referring here to the lads who live at home and aren't in school, aren't working, aren't paying rent, aren't handling their share of cooking and cleaning. Perhaps I didn’t quote Sax fully enough. As long as a child is either a full-time student, or working — and PAYING RENT (even a token sum) to stay in the home, Sax is okay with it.

So am I.

The choice between debt and dependency isn’t even a choice sometimes — sometimes you end up with both. I honor that. We’re referring here to the lads who live at home and aren’t in school, aren’t working, aren’t paying rent, aren’t handling their share of cooking and cleaning.

]]> By: Mermade http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/09/05/boys-adrift-part-two-of-a-review/#comment-109661 Mermade Wed, 05 Sep 2007 18:37:20 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/09/05/boys-adrift-part-two-of-a-review/#comment-109661 Antigone hits the nail on the head. I am going through the same thing. I have to choose between whether or not to go to the college of my dreams (MSM's) and take out thousands of dollars worth of debt OR go to a cheap state school and stay out of debt. My parents did not save for my college education, and they have my brother to think about, too. Also, I am going to be a humble school teacher and won't make tons of money. Choices, choices. The job market is bad right now. Add that to us needing to take out lots of loans. It's not easy. Most of us in Gen Y aren't lazy slugs living off of our parents forever, like many Baby Boomers think we are. Antigone hits the nail on the head. I am going through the same thing. I have to choose between whether or not to go to the college of my dreams (MSM’s) and take out thousands of dollars worth of debt OR go to a cheap state school and stay out of debt. My parents did not save for my college education, and they have my brother to think about, too. Also, I am going to be a humble school teacher and won’t make tons of money. Choices, choices. The job market is bad right now. Add that to us needing to take out lots of loans. It’s not easy. Most of us in Gen Y aren’t lazy slugs living off of our parents forever, like many Baby Boomers think we are.

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