While we were away, a number of emails piled up in my inbox from various folks seeking input on gender issues (usually, of course, on the “older men, younger women” theme).
On a different note, “Dave” writes:
I’m three years out of a divorce, a good guy, a dad, sweet, generous, and back into dating.
Many, most, if not all of the women I’m interested in are so busy that they have a hard time shoehorning me into their schedules. They act like I’m a good catch, but they don’t carve out time for me. In the worst case, I spend time with them as they are doing other activities.
I just deferred a meeting with an online acquaintance because the only free time in her schedule for the next three weeks was this Saturday afternoon. I did meet a woman I liked who seems to have a good balance in her life of quiet and schedule, but she is 15 years older than me (I’m 45). Do I need to get more of a sample before I draw conclusions about this?
Yes, I was with a woman before who scheduled 100% of her time so that she wouldn’t have to pay attention to me except to tell me what to do. Am I subconsciously returning to my pattern, or is it just a fact of life that women overprogram themselves? Should I resign myself to being a slot on someone’s planner because no one is left who leaves the weekend open Just To Be?
Well, yes, Dave, you do need much more of a sample before drawing sweeping conclusions. I want to give Dave the benefit of the doubt, too, and assume he’s not expecting contemporary single women to leave their calendars wide open in the hopes a suitor will call. But the notion that the pursuit of a relationship ought to be someone’s chief priority, that a date is reason alone to cancel all other non-romantic plans, is rooted in a hopelessly outdated idea about how single women are supposed to live their lives. Call it the “expectation of desperation”; I’m a bit worried that Dave might expect the women he’s dating to be desperate enough (or grateful enough for his attention) to reschedule everything for him.
I don’t think Dave is coming from a place of pure male entitlement, but I’m afraid that’s how his note reads. He writes:
They act like I’m a good catch, but they don’t carve out time for me. In the worst case, I spend time with them as they are doing other activities.
Well, in the early stages of dating, that’s not necessarily such a bad thing. (I’m assuming that Dave’s first dates don’t involve accompanying the women he’s met online on their trips to the grocery store and the dry cleaners.) Dave is 45 and a divorced father; I’m assuming he’s dating women more or less around his own age in similar circumstances. It can’t be much of a newsflash to anyone that custodial single parents are generally very busy, with very little free time. “Carving out time” for a new relationship is something that any single parent generally does carefully and cautiously for obvious reasons.
And of course, a great many women are rightly wary of men who expect their girlfriends to “drop everything” to devote themselves to maintaining a relationship. We still live in a culture that, alas, defines a woman’s worth by her romantic status. We still live in a society that teaches women that to be single (”alone”) is in some sense to have failed in one’s obligation to be mated to a man. A great many women have had the bitter experience of sacrificing their friendships and their professional or academic goals for an ultimately unsuccessful romantic relationship. Most women have had female friends who “disappeared” every time they started dating someone new, throwing all of their energy into a romance with one man. And many of these women have been badly burned, not just because these love affairs often didn’t work out, but because the whole experience of “vanishing into a relationship” is so disheartening and discombobulating.
It thus ought not to be surprising, Dave, that so many women (and men too) who have a bit of life experience are wary of “losing themselves”! They’re also wary of controlling and possessive partners, and I must admit, Dave, that those were the two words that first popped into my head as I read your note. That doesn’t mean that that caution will be permanent. As you move from the “just getting to know you” stage to the “I really want to be with you long-term” stage, probably the amount of time that you’re willing to offer to the relationship will increase. If a woman you’re dating wants to move, say, towards marriage with you, wants to be in a monogamous relationship with you, and still only wants to see you one Saturday afternoon a month, then there’s a problem.
In a world filled with men who expect women to cater to them, it’s not unreasonable for sensible women to be interested in discovering one thing about a prospective male partner: is this guy going to be able to handle the reality that I have a life separate from his? Is he going to try and smother me, or is he going to honor the fact that I can be in love with and devoted to someone and at the same time have a rich life that has nothing to do with him?
The line often attributed to Rilke is relevant here:
A good marriage is that in which each appoints the other guardian of his solitude.
It’s not rational or healthy to expect someone you’re dating to drop everything to be with you. It’s not rational or healthy to long for complete psychic fusion with someone else. One reason why the people you’re dating, Dave, are so sparing with their time is because they’re busy. That’s a good thing; it’s no fun dating someone who doesn’t have a life! But it’s also quite possible that they’re waiting to find out if you can be appreciative of the reality that they have a world that is separate, that is theirs alone, that will not be sacrificed on the altar of eros.
Or, to paraphrase the title of last year’s celebrated advice book for women, maybe she’s just not that into you. In any event, Dave, starting with one Saturday afternoon is probably a good idea for both of you.
Poor Dave. Last I checked, time “Just To Be” doesn’t mean “Just To Be With Dave.”
Your advice about healthy relationship boundaries is sound, Hugo, but I think you’re jumping to extreme conclusions from Dave’s letter. I know that if I were starting to date someone, and he could only see me one afternoon every three weeks, I would seriously wonder whether this person has the time and commitment level to be in a relationship, since a relationship is hard work even (or perhaps especially!) if one is trying to find that sweet spot between codependence and indifference. If someone is that busy and/or gun-shy, it might be more honest for her to say that she isn’t interested in a serious relationship, instead of penciling him in between her other priorities. I wonder if you would be so hard on Dave if the genders were reversed.
Jendi, I think it was the sense of entitlement I heard in the “carve out time for me” line. As for the gender question, I’ll give it some thought.
My reaction was much like Jendi’s. Maybe especially since I just heard “Cat’s in the Cradle” on the radio, which reminds me of how extremely busy people often stay extremely busy even after the marry and have kids. Some people do make adjustments, of course, but it’s a warning sign.
Of course, it’s difficult to tell the particulars from his description. I had lunch with a guy once who wanted to meet up for drinks later and then dinner the next day, which I found too much too fast. YMMV.
I’m very surprised that you shot right past Dave’s question about “am I subconsciously returning to my pattern”.
I have frequently gotten the complaint of “You don’t want to spend part of your life with me, you just want to spend some of the time you have left over.”
Mheh.
Pretty much true.
I’m the male version of that woman he’s probably talking about, and yes, I’ve lost my own identity in relationships to wind up being taken for granted.
Never again. I’ll reserve a sufficient part of me for me, so when it ends, I’m not adrift. Been there, done
In such a conservative, “no really means yes” culture, I’m surprised this guy didn’t jump to the conclusion that the women were just playing hard to get.
To be somewhat optimistic, maybe he’s not a complete troglodyte?
Dave sounds like an “entitled” asshole to me.
My ex-husband once asked me how he could in good conscience ask a friend of mine for a date, since he could see by her calendar (which he noticed when he was over there picking up our kid from a visit with her kid). I said I had noticed how very busy she was (her calendar actually had entries for “sleep”), and my advice was to pick something from her calendar that he thought he might enjoy and ask her if he could go along. He did and the result is that they’ve been happily married for about 20 years, and she has a lot more time for him in her schedule now.
Dave should try to be a little more understanding of other people’s situations. On the other hand, why give him advice that could result in his bothering people who almost certainly won’t want to be bothered by him?
I think that most people are thinking about themselves, especially at the beginning of a potentially serious relationship. Dave should consider the fact that most women are not thinking about what he wants, they are thinking about what is going to be best for them. Dave if the women that your dating are not making time for you it might simply be because they dont want to.
Many Americans like to rush around. Other cultures take life a little slower. Maybe Dave should look into dating someone from a different culture.
thanks for your comment hugo, it helped. :)
anyways, glad you’re back. i’m sort of on the fence about dave here, on one hand i don’t think what he was talking about entitlement and on the other, i think he’s just not very understanding.
and hugo, you’re totally right about women losing themselves in relationships. i’ve been there. i’m not sure why it happens. i think it’s a sort of addiction. when you’re with them, everything’s cool. but spend more than a day away and you start suffering from withdrawal. i had a long recovery after my “disappearance.” there’s smoking addiction, alcohol, even sex. so it makes sense that a relationship can be an addiction, and people who have been through do either one of two things: never let it happen again, or do it over and over.
“But it’s also quite possible that they’re waiting to find out if you can be appreciative of the reality that they have a world that is separate…”
i think that’s the best advice dave can walk away with.
Wow, I read Dave’s note and thought your “expectation of desperation” title referred to the women’s expectations for him. He didn’t ask them to cancel “all other plans” whenever he wants them to drop by; he just wanted them to carve out some time when they could be together.
I’ve seen a lot of my (introverted, geeky, sweet, unassuming) male friends have similar problems because they’re just too ’sweet’ to ask for what’s important to them. They’re willing to settle for a girl who’ll only want to spend time with them when she’s got nothing else to do. That’s no way to have a real friendship, much the less a relationship.
Apparently a lot of people think it’s “entitled” to ask that your friends and potential dates make time for you. I think, if everything else in their lives is more important than time with you, you’re not really friends, and there is no potential relationship. Sometimes it’s not that the laundry is more important, just a mistaken feeling that the man won’t care if she’s doing the laundry during their romantic dinner; but if he asks and she still won’t make time for a proper date, it’s a sign that she’s not really interested unless he’s willing to contort his life into pretzels to fit into whatever time she has left over.
if he asks and she still won’t make time for a proper date, it’s a sign that she’s not really interested unless he’s willing to contort his life into pretzels to fit into whatever time she has left over.
What’s he dropping? He doesn’t mention anything. Consequently, no one’s asking him to “contort his life” — they’re just asking him to be patient.
I find your leap in logic to be revealing about our cultural predispositions about gender time differentials.
It’s entirely possible that you all have a better grasp of gender roles than I do. I come from a family of no-nonsense women and I’m regularly informed that I’m “the man” in my relationship. In addition, I’ve seen several ‘nice’ guys make doormats of themselves and promptly get walked all over by women who are all too happy to, much like Dave described his former wife, “pay no attention… except to tell [him] what to do”.
So, recognizing that I’m coming from a different place than most commenters here, I still don’t think there’s enough information provided to condemn Dave. He doesn’t mention what he’s dropping, but for all we know he doesn’t have anything going on to drop. He didn’t mention what he’s asking them to drop either, so the conclusion that he wants them to “drop everything” at his beck and call seems like quite a leap of logic in itself.
My suspicion is that he’s a bit clueless, and doesn’t realize how much work these women are doing. Maybe he never learned to look for things to do before his ex-wife mentioned them; maybe he doesn’t know how much easier he could make romance for these women by, like Older’s friend, going along on something they’re doing already. But clueless to me doesn’t equal “entitled asshole” or “controlling or possessive partner”. It just means clueless. Noone is born knowing everything, but (thank G-d!) people can learn.
I’m currently juggling a full-time job, a 2-3 hour commute, one night class, one online course, freelance work, cooking meals and washing the dishes (dishwasher’s been dead for two months now)… it’s not that I want to “drop everything” and spend time with my DH, I want to “drop something” because, strangely enough, I enjoy being around him, I enjoy talking about how the day went, things like that.
I can’t imagine trying to find time to get to know a brand new person in the middle of all this. I didn’t get the impression that Dave was expecting these ladies to be desperate, it sounded to me like he was disappointed that they didn’t have time for traditional dating. That alone doesn’t make him a jerk, to me. I’m disappointed that I don’t have time, too.
Dave sounds like an “entitled” asshole to me.
He could be. Or he could be a guy who has, in his limited dating experience, been trying to date extremely busy women.
Nobody likes to feel like they’re being fit in as an afterthought. That doesn’t make Dave an asshole. The question is why he assumes all women are this busy and, if they are, why they are this busy.
It’s entirely possible that you all have a better grasp of gender roles than I do. I come from a family of no-nonsense women and I’m regularly informed that I’m “the man” in my relationship. In addition, I’ve seen several ‘nice’ guys make doormats of themselves and promptly get walked all over by women who are all too happy to, much like Dave described his former wife, “pay no attention… except to tell [him] what to do”.
If you’re really so progressive about gender roles, then why are you expecting the woman to rearrange her life for the man, instead of expecting the man to be patient?
To be more precise, the question is what assumptions you make in the face of imperfect information. And yours demonstrates rather traditional thinking.
I’ve seen what Dave is describing from many men in the online dating scene. Back when I thought the net was a viable tool for my own search for love, I joined some dating sites. The responses I received varied by age, but there was one constant. The men who wrote to me usually expected us to start seriously dating after three or four exchanges. That’s when the letters usually became sexual and they started talking about cuddling and spending the night together. Granted, we’d never even met. The gentlemen around Dave’s age were usually even more out there. They usually expected some sort of commitment after one exchange, where they would send messages to me that seemed to take for granted that I would end up with them. When I sent them responses politely telling them I wasn’t interested, it was my problem because of ageism (I’m 24), my need to control men to the point of them becoming effeminate, or another problem in my personality or upbringing. It didn’t occur to a single one of them that I’m in no rush to jump into a relationship with a stranger and two or three letters from them is not enough for me to fall in love.